Stephen Hazlett posted to Greencu and got me thinking.
For those with employees how do you handle lunch breaks?
Paid or unpaid?
The bigger question is what happens when your 8 minutes from the nearest convenience store. If you give them 1/2 hr. for lunch thats a 16 min. round trip, 5 minutes buying the food which leaves 9 minutes to eat and get back to work.
Of course one absolutely cannot drive and eat at the same time so the food is brought back untouched, requiring another 10 minutes over and above the original 30.
I’ve never really made a big issue of it but it certainly does bug me. Am I expecting too much?
On a side note, I’ve noticed a relationship between an employees ability to pack a lunch and how long they will stick with the company.
I’d better go, I’m 24 minutes over my lunch break…
Replies
Jon,
Nice website.
Lunch is unpaid, 30 minutes standard, if "you" take more then 30, say 45, thats fine, write down how long you were gone, and so long as you're willing to work an extra 15 at the end of the day so there is still 8 hours of productivity.
One thing I've noticed is most people will turn an 30 minute lunch into a 45 minute lunch, a 45 minute lunch into a 60 etc.
I'm only 15 minutes into my lunch now, and already done eating.... guess I'll get back to work ;)
You check BT while on the job site during your lunch break?A true addict.Seriously, are you doing a little office work now? I noticed that you posted about a potential employee test that you composed and have been wondering ever since what your job description is.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com
Jon,
I prefer to work alone----and untill a year or so ago I took zero breaks------I would rather finish the days work early and be home by 1:00 or 2:00.
but I am older now and slowing down so breaks are more necissary
Now----the roofing sub crews I mentioned------
the first one I used came HIGHLY recommended by a trusted supplier--------there method was
everybody was paid by the day---NOT the hour. work would start about 8:00 AM and the roof would be torn off by 9:00-9:30( usually one side of a house and maybe a porch or a breezeway)-----the whole crew would take a water and smoke break for maybe 10 minutes to shake the tear-off debris out of the clothes etc. and then start replacing bad wood, felting in, doing the layout snapping lines etc. Ideally by 11:00 or so the roof would be ready to shingle and that would be a natural time for lunch. The boss bought EVERYBODY lunch EVERY day at a resteraunt---often subway---but also sometimes at pretty good local places that had huge burgers for a dollar etc.-----------lunch was about an hour--------after lunch the roof would be HANDNAILED and the days work would be complete by 2:00 or 3:00.
If you figure it out----the guys were working about 6 hours per day( which I have come to find is my Optimum also)
Problem was---a lot of these guys were being paid only $60-80/ day------top guys were getting $100/day and the "foreman" I think $`130/day.
Over the years---most of those guys left---since they couldn't earn a living at $100/ day-----and they formed a second sub crew-------workers still paid by the day------laboreres get about $100/day----shinglers get $135/day----foreman is the new " owner and his brother.
but now---they get no morning break-----for lunch the owners brother buys a loaf of white bread ,a pound of chipchop, a bag of chips and a jar of pickles---plus 2 jugs of fruit punch----EVERY day.----they plop that stuff right down on the drive way or under a tree----and everybody roots through it with their filthy bare hands---------no trip to subway---nothing. They all drink straight out of the jug.
the boss keeps the pressure up and they work untill 6:00-7:00 frequently----because the "owner: relentlessly tries to do " a roof a day".
It's a beastly system---most of these guys are the same workers----but they are 10 years older now, working longer, and after inflation earning less.
the "owner" won't upgrade equipment, won't increase wages,---and his brother would frequently call the workers whiners and lazy sob's right in front of me.
I like these guys personally---and have tried repeatedly to show the "owners" how they could make MORE money by upgrading their equipment, doing about half as many jobs but BETTER, paying the employees MORE---but using a smaller crew etc. the owner won't listen because his ego is tied up in employing MORE guys than his previous boss and doing "a roof a day"
so--- I am sending my sub work to a guy who uses fewer workers, better equipment, better pay, works slower and produces and earns better. I pay him more----( I would have paid the other subs more also-----cost was never the issue----they set their own prices)
and what do you know???? the current subs employees live with human respect---have LIVES that don't revolve around alchol etc., have drivers licenses, permanent residences, bank accounts, wives and girlfreinds etc.
And MY stress level is lower
Stephen
90% of the time I work alone. I usually only stop for lunch. Sometimes I work through, so I can cut out a little early. I'd say it's 50/50 packing lunch to buying lunch. Depends where the jobsite is. If something is convenient, I'll buy lunch, if not I pack.
I've found lately that I'm more productive in the afternoons, if I actually sit down for about 30mins at lunch. In the past, I would stop for about 10-15mins, or eat on the fly.
Like you I usually work alone.
I rarely take breaks or lunch when I am alone. Except for the occasional cigarette break if I'm working indoors.
I find that its easier to keep working than to try to get back into the groove after eating.
I've done it numerous ways and there's always gonna be someone who abuses the system. I never liked to pack my lunch when i was on a job site every day. I used to leave the house at 4:30am, so no matter what was in the cooler it was starting to get a little funky by noon.
When I've had crews that truly enjoyed each other's company, we'd often pitch in and buy lunch meat, bread, mayo, tomatoes., lettuce, chips, drinks, etc, and set down together and make sandwiches. Usually, on Thursdays ( the crew worked Mon thru Thurs) we'd go to a resturauant.
Hey Mister Sushi, you forgot to cook my fish.
"Am I dead or alive? What's this? Linoleum? I must be in hell." -The Salton Sea
When I was in the roofing business we did it the same way. Send a gofer to the super market for cold cuts and all the trimmings. We kept some condiments in the cooler.
You cant expect roofers to remember to fix their own lunch. If you let them go out at lunch time and they happened to pass a liquor store it was all over
ouch
another topic that has been bugging the carp out of me these days. so I will be watching this for answers.
Our biz has picked up enough that I am not on the jobsite full time anymore. somedays not more then an hour or two a day
meeting clients, subs, bankers, etc
and I know, with the exact same story of the original post of this thread, that lunch's and breaks are getting longer and longer.
work is still getting done, but could it be more productive.
My lead guys wife owns a fast food resturaunt. we were all b.s.-ing one day and she brought up how it was hard for her to cover for somone who got sick, i turned it into
so how do you handle employee breaks, if they take long dinners or breaks.
warn em one time and then fire their asp she said
thikn it went right over her husbands head
We get an hour. It's usualy plenty of time. But it's a mandatory hour. Even if you don't use it you have to deduct it from your time card. It cuts out all the B.S.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
<<<"On a side note, I've noticed a relationship between an employees ability to pack a lunch and how long they will stick with the company.">>>
So what's the correlation?
********************************************************
"I tend to live in the past because most of my life is there."
-- Herb Caen (1916-1997)
We all pack lunches and I keep a microwave onsite. Works out really well. If someone forgets their lunch or was too busy the night before, I let 'em take off and grab something, but it happens so rarely that when it does, I feel obliged to send that guy out and pick up lunch for the crew, on me. I'm really lucky about the guys I have right now. They don't toe the line and I don't have to put the "boss" hat on too much lately. I also usually buy pizzas and stuff on the last day of wrap up on a house.
When it's cold I either line up a Roach Coach to hit the site around 10ish, or I send someone out to Dunkin' Donuts. I can't do it without the java blast in the winter.
EDIT: I forgot to add that lunch is often the only break we take (yeah, I know). It's usually about a 1/2 hour and I pay my guys for it. Once the real heat of summer kicks in, we take an additional break around 2ish. If my guys are thirsty or whatever, they'll go to their cooler and grab a drink or a snack and get back too it. They're pretty smart about their timing so I don't have a problem with it. Right now, they do a pretty good job of "self-policing" each other. I don't think I've ever had to tell one of the three guys I have right now to, "get back to work". They don't abuse, I don't push.
Edited 5/27/2005 7:06 pm ET by dieselpig
Sounds like you got it right.
Too many bosses only see the times you are late or take a long lunch.
But don't see all the times you stay late or skip break or lunch all together.
I don't want or expect anyone to pay me for work I didn't do or time I wasn't on the job.
I "self police" my time and put down what I think is fair.
Bosses always want the extra time to be in thier favor.
come in early leave late never take a long lunch.
But heaven forbid if you show up late!!
people have lives outside of work.
Fact of life.
some times real life interferes with work.
be fair and understanding and you will get the same in return.
Oh $hit am I venting again!!??ACTUALLY, IT'S QUITE GOOD ON TOAST!
One hour lunches.
Sometimes longer, sometimes shorter....its a day to day thing. All depends on what needs doin` that particular day.
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we take an hour at a resturant every day, everybody. It get so hot you need a cool down in a/c. we all go as a group. It also deducted from pay no matter if you take it or not, But we dont get morning or afternoon breaks, you break when you not busy.
That's the same policy we have.
Shout out to Andy C. Namaste my friend.
http://www.hay98.com/
Ironic that "brownbagg" doesn't bring his own lunch!-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I dont bring my lunch because it usually gone by 9 am. alot of construction meetings are done at lunch. and since it 90 degree or better nine months of the year, nearly everybody looking for a/c at lunch time. There is a place that the construction people hang out. five dollar at the door. Meat and two veggies, sweet tea. you can be ate and out the door in twenty minutes. good home down food. That usually what I do.
My comment had to do entirely with the delicious irony that someone who selected the handle "Brownbagg" didn't bring his own lunch, as bringing one's own lunch to work, in a brown paper bag, is commonly refered to as "Brown bagging."
It wasn't a comment on your work practices, including lunch preferences.-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
you know the name brownbagg came from. Here in Mobile a local radio station always have a concert in the park in downtown Mobile. Friday at lunch time. a concert with the pidgeon and squirrls .They always call it " Brownbag in Bienville square" Thats where the name came from.
To others, a "brownbag" is where you kept your nipper out of sight; you know, like the brown-bag specials with dinner in South Carolina (do they still do that ? we've recently introduced brown bagging in restaurants, but you still pay corkage).
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
For "Brownbagg's" sake, I won't tell the workers' compensation folks if you don't LOL-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
But the major problem isn't with what the boss sees, it's what the others on the site see. They probably didn't see "Joe" working past midnight yesterday to make a fix so that no-one would be idle today, but they all see him make it to work 5 minutes late this morning..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
But they also see Joe doing 8 or 9 hours of work in that 7:55.
and they see the boss come in and brayte joe for his "trying to short me 5 min."
then they see Joe quit and get a better job and on of them gets to take the bosses $HIT for no more $ and no respect.
If an employee is truely bad then terminate.
Don't make the whole crews' jobs miserable!
You'll get more flys with honey that with $hit.
ACTUALLY, IT'S QUITE GOOD ON TOAST!
All......I've used those 10min breaks to talk about what we have done and what we are going to do , an excellent time to teach the how and why and some of the questions I get are real eye openers. Yes , they are on the payroll and I don't mind if the breaks go 20 or 30min the reward is my people feel they are more than a "hammer swinger" and are really contributing to the project as builders a good time to find out which people have a particular intrest in a specific phase and let them "lead". As for lunch breaks it's time to talk about sports, women and fishing/hunting. I don't have a problem with unannounced overtime they all ready know when we are at a stopping point and will work to that end. It's a real pleasure to see my people get up before BTor lunch time is over and start back to work because they know what to do and are looking forward to completing that phase and going on to the next.
"brayte" ?You missed the point (I take it you've not received much professional manager training): one of the faster ways to open up a pit you pour time into is to have someone in another crew/department/trade/what-ever tell their "boss" that one of your folks is allowed to come in late. Have you heard the expressions: "better an hour late than a minute", or "there's no such thing as less than an hour off"..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
berate??
once again you demonstrate the chasm that exists between management and the real world.
If you good carpenters/people working for you and treat them as such, you will get production even when guys show up five minutes late and or take five or ten extra minutes at lunch occasionally.
9 times out of 10 managers have got themselves so invested in thier schedules and estimates and seminars and efficiency BS they don't want to see that the problem lies somewhere else besides the Hourly workers.
it is a lack of respect thing and it has been hashed over here dozens of times.
Sure there are deadbeat carpenters.
But there are just as many Cheapazz bosses that won't pay for good help and expect the world from some guy they are paying as little as they can.
You get what you pay for and you get as much respect as you give.
ACTUALLY, IT'S QUITE GOOD ON TOAST!
And I believe you have just demonstrated why you're an unlikely condidate for management: I mentioned no adverse or negative treatment of the employee what-so-ever; in fact, if you have the previous post read to you more slowly, you'll realize that for the specific situation of an employee being because they worked VERY late I advocate they be at least an hour late rather than a few minutes.But that still doesn't handle the bigger problem of the optics of granting extended Ts&Cs to some employees..
Phill Giles
The Unionville Woodwright
Unionville, Ontario
And I believe you have just demonstrated why you're an unlikely condidate for management
Thank you Phill!!
that is the nicest compilment ever given out here!
Seriously.
If I EVER become management material, Shoot me!
and if you want me to read slower you'll have to type slower:)ACTUALLY, IT'S QUITE GOOD ON TOAST!
Depends.
A lot of states call for at least 30 minutes for lunch which may be unpaid. But they also call for two 15 minute breaks which are supposed to be paid time. So you have one hour. Half paid and half unpaid.
If the actual time, from punch in to punch out, is eight and a half hours and the workers take an hour for lunch but no other breaks your breaking even. Everything is as it should be.
A lot of judgement calls. Calls for some finesse. Cut it too tight and the employees are going to resent the added pressure and negative atmosphere. They will take the breaks behind your back, slack and cause, or fail to avoid problems so you may get an extra fifteen minutes work out of them but only at 50% output, trucks and tools take more abuse and people quit and cause problems more often. This pretty much eats any potential additional output.
Some of this comes down to the social work environment. If people feel like they are part of a team, have some control over their work and are allowed to make real contributions to a creative enterprise they can put up with a lot. If the boss needlessly berates the help, cherry picks jobs for himself or a chosen few, doesn't allow any control over haw work is done to fall to the employees and makes the job a study in favoritism, back biting and blamesmanship people are going to do as little as they can.
Lacking emotional and socially fulfilling work environment people will look at the paycheck as the only reason to be there. Money is Not a good motivator. They will see every day as a fight to do as little as possible. Both to avoid blame if anything should go wrong and to keep the profit per unit of emotional investment as favorable as possible.
I have seen a lot of bosses. Most of those who look on employees as there for a paycheck and replaceable are loosing money. Or at least not making what they could. They spend a lot of their time fighting the employees. They are wearing themselves out and most hate their jobs only slightly less than the people they hire.
People who get and keep the employees on their side as part of a team and delegate authority, without diluting it, seldom have issues with lunches and such.
I run it the same way you just mentioned: 30 minutes unpaid for lunch; two 15 minute coffee breaks, paid. I don't bill the HO for the lunches but I do for the breaks.
If a lunch break goes overtime, it gets written that way on the daily reports and deducted from both paychecks and billing. If a coffee break goes a little over, we make it up in the slack on which side of the 15-minute chunk we write out at the end of the day.
Where we are, it's obligatory to pack your lunch; frequently sites are 15 minutes or more from the nearest depanneur. I hate it when a new guy shows up without a cooler. Guaranteed the whole crew will be back to work before he gets back with his loaf of bread and package of baloney....
When it's hot, I stick a 7-liter cooler of ½-strength Gatorade on the tailgate and everybody hits it whenever they need to. My treat. Dehydrating your guys by pushing them to work instead of drink is a good way to cause an accident. I find that most work has natural pause points in it where it won't slow things up if somebody takes a few seconds to slurp down some juice while the helper is fetching more 2x. The helper can get his slurp while the carps are nailing it in place....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
well said!!
trust and respect...
Give some : get some
TANSTAAFLACTUALLY, IT'S QUITE GOOD ON TOAST!
"TANSTAAFL" ???
You're a Heinlein fan, right? - lol
I have a little different take on this problem and it is in line with Mr. T's.
When we first went into business, we took no breaks and usually no lunch, at most a ten minute break. We had no employees.
When we hired employees we had a strict 30 minute lunch and a 10 minute, at most, break for coffee. We rarely brought coffee and often did not use this time.
As the years have passed we take a little more time at lunch and are religious in observing our coffee break, usually providing coffee for all and often donuts, pies, etc. We have come to feel that this time is important in building camaradarie among our crew and is one of the reasons that we are able to retain our best people. It makes work that much more enjoyable for us as well.
None of this was as a conscious plan but is something that we are all comfortable with and it is what allows you to ask people to stay that extra half hour to finish up an almost completed task.
A good thread with some good replys. I'd say you can tell a lot about someones work philosophy by their lunch policy.
When I was an employee I felt that 1/2 hour was too short and 1 hour was too long, so 45 mins worked best for me. I liked to get away from the site some days. Didnt always want to hang around and talk about the job on my break. Depended on the crew and the boss of course.
I'm pretty loose with the lunch break on my jobs, but I have a small crew with good people so it hasnt become an issue. I realize though, that I'll have to come up with a set policy at some point because I'm getting busier and starting to grow. (just added a third full timer). If I was in Isamemons place I might think about getting one of those job clock units. Seems like a good problem solver (and argument killer).
When I worked as a framing employee, it was always two 15 min. breaks, and a half hour lunch. And we all brought our lunch, every day. I would eat my lunch during my first break, and snooze during my half-hour.
When I ran a crew, it was the same policy. And everyone understood that I wasn't going to stop-watch time them on lunch breaks, but I expected them to make up the time if their lunch or break went over, or if they were a few minutes late in the morning. Never had any problems with abuse of the system, or productivity lagging.
Now I work alone, and the hardest thing is for me to force myself to take a lunch break. Its counter-productive to work straight through 8 hours plus, but I find myself doing it time and again. Gotta really excercise some self-control, because like the others, I really get more productivity when I take an eat/rest break during the day.