Hello everybody,
I got a call a few weeks ago from a past client. I had finished a second story and added a full bathroom. Project was completed in December 2006. He called me on April 14th and said he was noticing some water outside of the shower door. I told him I would be glad to come take a look at it for him.
I told him my recommendation would be to scrape out a little loose grout adjacent to the shower door area, regrout those areas, and reseal all of the grout. incidentally, I tell all of my clients to inspect and reseal the grout once a year, and to make sure their cleaning people are not using cleaners that are too strong.
I told him I would address the issue if he wanted. He was noncommital, and I did not hear anything again.
He left a message today, saying that he wants me to come out and repair it for free. If he has to pay someone else to do it, then he’ll sue he for the money. His threat does not worry me (I’ve got two attorney brothers), just his attitude.
This shower was used daily from December 2006 through March 2008 with absolutely no problems at all. I have never had a custom shower leak before.
What would you do?
– Steve
“Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words.” – St. Francis of Assisi
Replies
In a case like that, I would have offered to address the problem there and then at the time of the "look see", so long as he still had some of the grout remaining (I always leave the extra grout, tiles, etc. with the HO for future maintenance.)
Were it readily accessible, and I had the time.....which I try and leave myself whenever visiting a client with an issue....I would have done it at no charge and showed him how to attention it in the future. That would be a one time deal. Happens again 2 years down the road, he's on his own.
If he were to ask me back at a later date because he had tossed the leftovers, I would have charged him for my time.
Can't say what I'd do in your position, as I would have tried to avoid it from the begining. Sounds like a client to avoid in the future.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
WOW! Thanks everyone. I am amazed at all the insight.
I couldn't care less about his threat. I do plan to take the high road. I'll post some photos of the project if you would like.
This shower is used exclusively by his 7 year old son.
I could not get it to leak when I was there. I think it is an issue that his son is just getting water splashed out out the door upon exiting.
If I said crumbling grout, I just meant, a couple of very small areas that I could touch up. I do not think these are causing any water penetration. It's all Durock, thinset and ceramic walls. A marble shower threshold. PVC membrane with proper drain, etc. He says he has seen a puddle from time to time on the tile bathroom floor, just outside of the shower door, after a shower. I asked quantity, he said maybe like a 1/2 cup.
Thanks again, all.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
i'd go a little different way with him i would call him and ask"did you hear me say i would help you with this and you made no reply?"
now this is maybe a 100.00 repair,if you want to go hire a lawyer at 250.00 a hour and i'm sure he won't bill you over 8 hours,go ahead. see ya in court,my brother owes me for fixing his deck......
but if you would like to settle this in a decent way fine,i'll come over see what i can do and you will need to sign a paper that this is strickly a goodwill jester as the warranty expired a year ago and in no way is this repair a extension of the orig warranty or the begining of a new one.i'm just trying to help you out.
if he continues to be a az,tell him to get a towel... larry
if a man speaks in the forest,and there's not a woman to hear him,is he still wrong?
Since I know that you want to always be right ...
goodwill jester might sound better as goodwill gesture.
Or maybe not, now that I think about it.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 5/8/2008 7:28 am ET by FastEddie
If it were me, even at this stage of the game , I'd go and look at the shower. The H.O. was concerned, you got angry. IMHO, clients are rightly less concerned about their reputation amongst contractors than contractors are about their reputation amongst H.O.s. If it's a client issue, offer a 1/2 price repair and some more education. If it's something that should have been done differently, like a spot that should have been caulked instead of grouted, or the top of the curb wasn't pitched enough we would fix it free of charge. We've been stretched pretty thin at times, i.e. I'm supervising 3 jobs in 2 boroughs, and no matter how much I remind the guys, everyone is rushing, and details slip. The grout/caulk thing is a too common common fault usually only cured after the second offense when the offender is asked to choose between fixing it on their own time and working elsewhere.If all else fails, you have a well written contract to protect you and your company.
The awful thing is that beauty is mysterious as well as terrible. God and the devil are fighting there, and the battlefield is the heart of man.- Fyodor Dostoyevski
I do handy man work. Go a call from someone that I had done some completely unrelated work.They said that was was leaking around the toilet. As they described it it sounded like a bad wax ring. Went there ready to replace it.Flush the toilet a couple of dozen times. Not a dop of water. And t he toilet was solid, no rocking.So I wondered if there might have been a restriction in the line. So I ran the vanity and the shower at the same time.Still nto a drop.But I noticed mist comeing under the shower door, but I did not think enough to form the pool that they said.Anyway going to go tell them and I shut off the shower and vanity and saw a big puddle of water on the floor.There was s drip "cap" at the bottom of the door. It would fill with water and when you went to open the door it drained out on the floor.So I am replacing it today..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
This shower is used exclusively by his 7 year old son.
BINGO!!!
I can't begin to count the number of calls I've gotten about flooring problems near shower doors. 99% of the time, the cause can be traced to poorly closing doors and/or knuckleheads stepping out of the shower dripping wet and leaving the water on the floor when they leave.
When I remodeled my bathrooms several years ago, I told my then teenage daughters that they were to dry off inside the shower and wipe up any water on the floor before they walked away. I further told them that failure to follow these rules would see them repairing any damage while I supervised their work.
Ahhh, I miss the days when they actually listened to me. Apparently, #2 daughter imposed these rules on SIL #1 shortly after their wedding. - lol
I had a call back from a client who claimed her roof was leaking and showed me her wet carpet in the corner of a bedroom. It took me weeks before I realized it was coming under the wall from the adjacent bathroom. Her teenage son and his girlfriend liked to take baths and showers together. The damage only stopped when she got pregnant. The client never did believe it wasn't the tile surround, and we ended up in court.
I never heard anything like that one, but most of the people I talk to are surprised to hear that leaving water stand on the floor can cause the problems it does. For some reason, they just can't believe that bathroom floors aren't waterproof. - lol
I've pretty much quit taking these calls since I'm a one man operation and people rarely respond positively when you have to tell them that "that little bit of loose flooring" might result in a major rip and remodel project.
I can guarantee you most 7 year olds leave about a 1/2 cup of water after a shower. Show me a kid that dries off immediately while still in the shower...... duh problem solved.
If it was an everyday thing then it may be a problem.
If I was him I would feel stupid for even calling you.
Fix it out of self satisfaction. Be the bigger man even though you and your workmanship is not wrong.
Maybe buy him a bath mat as a kicker.....
cover your backside by having him sign waiver saying that this will not extend his warranty beyond the original install date.
Ebe
Please note I do not want to see children after a shower!!!! It is just a phrase!!!
Edited 5/8/2008 8:05 pm by Ebe
Tell him you'll sit there and watch his son shower and then you will be able to figure out the source of excess drippage.
I would have scraped out a little loose grout and regrouted those areas. Then I would have given the owner a bottle of sealer and told him to wait three days then seal all the grout in the shower. Thank him for notifying you of the problem, and that although you're out of your one year warrantee period you're happy to take care of the grout issue. And I would have reminded him of the necessity of re-sealing periodically.
Now you're are in an uncomfortable position, but basically the same thing should be done. Fix the problem, but make him sign an agreement that he understands his warrantee period is over before you do the work.
I would have said to fix it for good will, right up to the pioint where he said "sue". Now it's going to cost the going rate. Let him prove that the grout failed early, and that they did not contribute to the failure.
"Put your creed in your deed." Emerson
"When asked if you can do something, tell'em "Why certainly I can", then get busy and find a way to do it." T. Roosevelt
Edited 5/7/2008 5:26 pm ET by FastEddie
Well, he had to be an aszhole didn't he?
In any other case I'd have taken care of it for free either at that time or sent someone by shortly there after. Little stuff like that buys a lot of good will.
Now that he is being a dick, I'd tell him to shove it, pack sand, jump off a clip, what ever you like.
That's providing it's outside you're warranty.
That said I am having a particuarly bad day and looking for any reason to explode on the next innoccent passer by so someone deserving like him would get the full me.
In reality you should take care of it for the simple reason you probably don't need this jerk off telling everyone he knows what a crook you are and how bad your work is.
On the other hand, you might be looking at a long stream of calls if he feels like he can "bully" you in the future. After reading the posts I like the idea of having him sign off the warranty period is over..
Edited 5/7/2008 5:46 pm ET by CAGIV
Edited 5/7/2008 5:47 pm ET by CAGIV
That's providing it's outside you're warranty.
That would be the question - did he provide a written warranty, and was it written well enough to overcome the implied warranties the state provides - merchantibility, fitness for purpose, etc.
I'd be concerned about going to court - he will lose more than he could gain, maybe a lot more, even if he "wins".
You know, I'm back to a simple FU
Congratulations!
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I'da been offering the free fix right up till the "sue ya" comment.
now ... I'd call back and tell him exactly that.
my theory ... aholes need to be told they're aholes ... otherwise ... they never find out why the rest of the world hates them.
just this week I got an email from a guy I did a 2 week sub job for.
he came up with a ton of BS reasons why he "couldn't" pay in full.
final payment was $375 ... I told him I'd not head directly to the magistrates if he sent $300 immediately and lost my phone number.
last week got an email he needs my ins certificate info as he's being audited.
being that I'm a pretty fair guy ... I emailed back and said sure.
Not sure why he didn't have it from our first meeting ... but fine.
called the ins agent last week to have his, and a newer cert fax/mailed out.
found out on Tues the phone girl never had the fax girl send them.
came home to another of his emails ... he hadn't recieved it, and if I can't afford insurance and am working crooked just admit it so he can move on.
Guess who ain't getting another certificate faxed.
U want me to work with ya ... lets lose the attitude first.
I think I'm gonna email him back and say fax services start at $75 ...
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Tell him to pound sand. We all know that you will never get a referral from him even if you do provide a free service.....
Write him a letter explaining what your warranty policy is, that he signed your contract two years earlier where your warranty policy was clearly explained, (you did have a contract and warranty policy . . . right?) and that you'll be happy to do the job for $#### or $####/hour.
Have your brothers review the letter so it sounds reasonable and not too inflammatory, and send it registered "return receipt requested".
If the original contract was clear and complete it should be enforceable and shouldn't be your problem anymore.
Most of my business came from "word of mouth" so I'd fix it once for free to try to avoid being the victim of negative gossip. I doubt such a client would offer me future work but if he did I'd be too "busy".
The first thing I'd want to know is why a 2 year old shower is leaking. The second thing I'd want to know is why my builder is suggesting that grout and sealer will repair a leaky shower.
Lots of shower doors leak from day 1, especially the heavy glass frameless enclosures. Water on the floor outside those is unsurprising. I have had good luck with the lower-end fully-framed units with magnetic door seals, but some customers don't want all that metal around their shower.
Crumbling grout after two years is surprising. Water leaking out because of crumbling grout is also surprising but maybe it has formed a leaker channel in the curb or something.
To the OP's question, I would have fixed it promptly whether or not he called back. Be proactive. Now that you haven't he's being a prick.
"The second thing I'd want to know is why my builder is suggesting that grout and sealer will repair a leaky shower."
once got called back to "fix" a leaky tub I installed with my Dad. Saw the sheet flooring lifting right at the edge of the tub ... definitely some sorta "leak".
renters in that apartment said it leaked pretty much every morning ...
always stepping into a big puddle of water.
so we checked ... and checked ... and checked.
as we were about to leave confused ... the daughter decided she'd take a shower.
we decided to wait and look at things just one more time.
she showered ... floor soaked ...
Dad walked in the steamy bath .... then called her back.
"Do you always have the shower curtain "this way"?
"Yeah ... that's what it's there for."
she'd been showering with the curtain pulled nice and tight ... on the outside of the tub!
since she weighed around 300lbs ... it was "too tight"
and seeing as how it was so tight in there ... water just splashed off her, onto the curtain ... and down onto the floor.
sometimes there are other problems with leaks a coupla years after the install other than the install itself!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
What would you have done if he didn't "demand" that you repair it for free?
Do that.
Be bigger than him and just ignore his empty threat.
I once had an incompetent mason do some work for me. I happened to be there when he was building some forms which I could see would blow out as soon as he poured. I started to re-secure it and he lays into me like I'm sabotaging his work. Fortunately, I had finished. As he's ranting, he says to me that if I gave him any grief, he would just walk off the job.
I still owed him most of his money. Can you imagine how close I came to telling him to go ahead and walk? But if I had, it would have been only for pride and not purpose. I said no more because I already knew he was an a-hole and I was the going to be bigger than him. I have no regrets.
Excellent answer Don.People's punishment for the way they are is that have to live with their miserable selves. Even if it may seem that they are unaffected...don't believe it.What must it be like to be them?The high road is usually the path less trod upon but it always leads you to where you'll want to go.
Was the tile part of your responsibility two years ago? The shower door? Did you supply and/or install them?
I think it's reasonable to expect a shower enclosure to stay functional well beyond two years of daily use. What caused the grout to crumble?
Our professional responsibilities extend beyond a customers bad attitude. He's a d*ckhead for leaving a threatening message, no question. But are you going to maintain your professional standards or take his attitude as an excuse not to stand behind your work?
Do the right thing. Even if he doesn't. All you can do is hold up your end.
I respect what Don did too, but as Jeff Buck points out, aggression should not be rewarded.
When I moved onto Vancouver Island I was struck by how polite and non-confrontational people were. I soon noticed that there were a small number of very aggressive people who capitalized on this, doing things on a number of levels from cutting into traffic, to simply not paying their bills, or running scams. They were able to do this because they realized that they wouldn't be called to account for their behaviour. Stuff that wouldn't be tolerated in, say, Montreal or New York. Against certain people keeping sweet isn't always the right approach.
aggression should not be rewarded
I hear you on that. But as civilized people (generally speaking), I think we have to be careful about "upping the ante" otherwise aggression becomes the norm.
If Steve in Cleveland goes back to touch-up the grout, he might want to say as he's leaving "by the way, I repaired this because I'm a professional and I care about customer satisfaction". The customer should be able to read between the lines.
I think you would make a good neighbour.
Yeah. I think the tripping point was when this jerk mentioned suing.
Like some others I would have done a repair for free but I question whether I would have done anything afterwards.
For me it would be a tough call. If I were to come back and do the repair I would not keep my mouth shut on the matter. If you can somehow show that situations can be easily handled in a cordial manner and by doing that you be the one to take the initiative, then I say do it, even at this stage of the game. Let the aggressor be warned however.I think the letter from the lawyer is a good thing, but I would still go back and talk to the guy.
Good point.
As my old friend Bernie Huntley used to say,
"Sometimes you have to use a little sugar and sometimes you've got to use a little vinegar and it's the wise man who knows when to use which."
Steve, I think Mike Maines has it right, tell him you'd be happy to repair it, if he'll acknowledge it is beyond the warranty period by signing the paper.
Rich
I'd have one of my brothers send him a note on his stationary......
Dear Mr Shidhead,
Please be advised that my office has been retained by Steve in Cleveland to represent him in this matter.
Please notify us of your attorney's name and address so that we may correspond directly with them. Should you mot have an attorney, please forward all correspondence pertaining to this matter directly to our office.
Thank you for your anticipated cooperation in this matter.
Sincerely,
Mr Attornry, Senior Partner
Dowe, Screwem, & Goode.
PS.....feel free to use any, all, or none of the above.
I'm a little surprised at the guys in this thread that cling to the "one year warrantee".
if it is truly a workmanship issue I'd have fixed it by now and the guy would'nt have had to make the threat.
I know he has no legal leg to stand on. that does'nt mean you dont need to take care of your family of clients in need.
theres nothing worse than someone elses truck parked in front of a past clients house.
I tell the guy" sorry, you had the chance for free repairs, now let me introduce you to my brother, the attorney" It seems you had a verbal warranty that he voided by letting the problem compound and fester. Good luck though.
All I ever wanted in life was an unfair advantage...
You could always do as Dr Joy Browne suggests, play sweet and stupid. Call him back, and say, I got some sort of message from you about your shower, did you want me to come have a look at that like I offered to when we spoke? What time would be good for you?
Pretend you never heard him threaten you, and treat him like you would if he was a human.
I had a customer leave me a nasty obscenity filled voice mail once. Because I'm not the owner, I don't have the luxury of saying what I'd like to sometimes, so the next day when I called him back, I just said that I heard some sort of voice mail that he'd left for me, but I couldn't follow it, so I asked him what I could do for him. I think he was relieved that I pretended he was decent, I never brought it up, and no matter what I think of him, he's been good ever since. I wouldn't go out of my way to help him, but I'll at least be professional.
Another good reason not to answer the phone in person.
I've had it with people threatening me. I've done the right thing, and won. legally. Never again.
I say kill him, right now.
Forrest - cutting to the chase
lmao.
This all reminds me of a story from a few years ago. We put in an ONYX shower, for those un-familiar it's a composite plastic some what similar to Corain for this couple 2 years prior to them calling. Our warranty is one year and pretty clear. This was also not a legit warranty claim.
They call and complain that the caulk is "Moldy", so we go by and take a look, I ask if they would like us to fix it they say sure and we set a time after I have the caulk on hand (Color match)
Guy goes and cleans all the old stuff out, recaulks, it's a big shower but he's finished in 3 hours. I bill at normal rate plus the caulk and receive a letter back... That if we won't stand behind our work they;''ll stop recommending us yadda yadda.
So I mail the check back with my "apology"
I'm sorry Mr. & Mrs. XYZ.
I thought it was clear the shower was past warranty by 13 months and the mold was not a result of our workmanship or the product itself but rather would fall under the catagory of neglect. I thought you understood there would be a charge for the work. I've enclosed your check as a sign of good faith.
In the future the problem can be avoided if you were to clean your shower at a minimum of every few months or so, most people do so weekly. The mold was allowed to grow to such an excessive point due to a lack of a clean environment. I've enclosed the care instructions and happen to find a coupon for Tylex which is also enclosed. The proper procedure is apply the cleaner to the shower and wipe it down every now and then. Not doing so will result in the future mold growth as well as dirty and possibly unhealthy/non-sanitary enviornment for bathing.
Again, Please Except my apologies.
Sincerly....
Never have heard back from those slobs
awesome.
Well done. People like that usually don't call back. Trying to get them not to cast aspersions is the challenge.
I would go back and look at it, The trouble i have seen is if they call someone else and he comes over and looks at your job , if hes a bad guy he will go over with a fine tooth comb everything you did there and ignite a fire under the homeowner.
I try and keep these jokers off my job, Some are so devious they make up things, ie, Im gonna have to rip out ALL the tile to fix this, Let me do it and send YOU the bill
I gave up telling my teens how to use a shower, Its not in there brain cells. I just let them use the downstairs bath and figured out comes the floor when they leave.
Love people that feel they have to threaten you to get things done. Well I guess it's because we contractors are all a bunch of seedy individuals.
He stated that he would sue "if he had to get someone else to fix it". I read somewhere legally you need to give the original contractor a chance to fix the problem before any sort of action is taken. If there is a leak that is a result of your work, I would fix it and be done with it. As others have said get him to sign off on a warranty so after this fix any other problems are going to cost the HO.
Way back I did some work for a GC as a trim guy/pickup and fix the warranty problems person. Must have made 5 call backs on a poorly designed seperate shower and tub setup. It was tiled wrong by ?? and I got the job of trying to fix it, after the first fix was a failure I informed GC that it was best to ripout and redo right. Of course GC didn't want to go that route so I did what I could, knowing all the time it was fruitless.
Good luck
Jeff
Should you fix it for free? Well, there are a few different ways to look at this.
Rule #1 is to not let his attitude - for good or bad - dictate your response.
Are you required to fix it? Here, contractors are required to give a 1 yr warranty on their work. Within that year, it's a given .. you get to fix it.
Does honor require you to fix it? For example, maybe you hired a poor performer, and this is a job the guy did before you got wise to him. Or, you were using a product that has since proven to be inadequate. In cases like these, perhaps a repair and a smile is in order.
What kind of customer was he? Was he a CUSStomer, continually making changes, demands, always trying to renegotiate the price, and paying as slow as molasses? Or, was he organized, clear, and paid cheerfully at the end of the job?
Is this person a source of regular work .. or do you even want to work for him again?
The final factor to consider is: How far can this go? The "Good Book" urges us to avoid going before the judge at all costs - as all bets are off in court. Will a $30 fix now prevent a claim for thousands of dollars in alleged damages to other things?
I'd do it for free but serve him papers on warrantee issues and a "new" maintenance program and the associated fees you are doing. I'd do the whole thing with a big smile the whole time.
So next time he is completely clear on the issue.
On the maintenance program tell him you might have someone else be the repair person if you are to busy at the time if you don't want to see him again. And make the fees high enough to make it worth your while.