I was switching out a door today and replacing it with a new pre-hung exterior unit in an existing house, and just like a lot of the time when I’m changing out doors or windows, I’m bewildered and frustrated by the rough opening being just barely big enough for the door or window (same size as original) to fit. I’m guessing theres a few framers out there that take pride in framing in rough opening with 1/16th inch to spare on all sides? I imagine whoever put the doors and windows in the house originally would have appreciated 1/2 inch wiggle room on all sides just as much as I would have.
After a lot of banging, beating, and planning things that should not have ever needed planning, I got the door in.
Anyway, it gave me the idea for a thread – Plumbers, trim carpenters, electricians, painters, framers, whoever… What are some of the things that you commonly have to deal with that if the previous trade had done something just a little different, your job would be easier?
I’m sure this will draw a few comments from the peanut gallery, but maybe some useful information would come as well.
Replies
Rough openings are provided by the manufacturers... and that's what we (framers) frame the RO to. We don't measure the units and then frame an opening 'close' to that size. Remember that the units usually aren't on site until weeks after the framing is done.
But the thread idea is a good one.
Maybe start adding a half inch to the RO's when no one is looking...
Well, you know the old saw- mistakes in the foundation will follow everyone all the way to the ridge. #### runs uphill in this case.
Maybe start adding a half inch to the RO's when no one is looking...
I disagree with that.
Why should the framer take it upon himself to guess that the fit of the door/window is going to be one that barely fits into the openings that are called out.
I don't find that the openings that are given to me by the framer are not large enough as much as I do the ones that are just spec'd wrong, (not the framers fault) or are done by a hack that doesn't care if one leg is way out of plumb making the opening narrow by 1/2" or so, There are remedies for that though.
I don't have any idea if all window and door manufactures have spec'd the proper amount of space but I'd guess most of them have. If it was framed right then the problem isn't going to be solved by adding 1/2".
Doug
I'm bewildered and frustrated by the rough opening being just barely big enough for the door or window (same size as original) to fit. I'm guessing theres a few framers out there that take pride in framing in rough opening with 1/16th inch to spare on all sides?
Why do you automatically think it's the framers fault? Don't say because the framer framed the openings either. Maybe he was given he wrong RO's which happens many, many times. Maybe it was the framers fault, but just don't assume it is all the time.
Maybe start adding a half inch to the RO's when no one is looking...
Why, that makes no sense when given a RO. The RO given is supposed to be the right one, why make it bigger
Joe Carola
Sorry if I offended a framer or two. I was kidding around just a little about adding a half inch to the RO when no one was looking... sort of...
If I were GC'ing the building of a house, that's just one of many things I would try to make happen to make the over all big picture smoother... I'd try to find the actually size of the windows and doors, and make sure the the RO was exactly (about) an inch bigger than the unit fitting in... giving a half inch wiggle room on all sides, for shims, and spray foam to seal the unit into place. Nailing fins, brickmold, etc... work fine with 1/2 RO gap.
I'll be interested to hear from any plumbers, electricians, or hvac guys on what they would change about framing if they could.
Edited 6/28/2008 9:26 pm ET by drbgwood
Edited 6/28/2008 9:27 pm ET by drbgwood
Don't put nails in the center part of any boards where plumbers or electricians may have to drill. (It sounds silly, but after you get yanked off a ladder by your hole hawg, you'll understand. plus the cost of the auger bit.)
keep up the thread, this kind of teamwork is very overlooked.
k
I'd try to find the actually size of the windows and doors, and make sure the the RO was exactly (about) an inch bigger than the unit fitting in
"If you were a GC" you wouldn't have to look very hard. Window and door manufacturers post their unit sizes as well as rough opening dimensions in a variety of places; catalogs, literature, websites, the paperwork from your order, etc. I keep several catalogs in the truck at all times for just this sort of information.... Velux catalog, Anderson book, Kolbe book, Marvin, Pella, and Therma-Tru are a few that come to mind.
Sometimes the wheel really doesn't need to be reinvented. I've installed literally thousands of windows and exterior doors in new construction situations. I can't ever remember having a problem fitting a window into a rough opening that was framed to a manufacturer's specified opening size.
I think what you've run into is a problem that's already been fixed. Any time you're working in old houses you're going to come across things that aren't standardized the way they are today. And the availability of critical information is much more readily available so many of these problems have been fixed. Of course sometimes guys just get it wrong....that's has always happened and probably always will. Not much you can do about that.View Image
I'll add a third "amen" to the drywall over the windows bit. I very recently had to go around and cut back the drywall on just about every windown in a sunroom with about 20 linear feet of windows. Dumb waste of time, and extra mess.
A builder I do work for seems to have found a cure for this. He shims all his interior window jambs and leaves the shims sticking out.... doesn't snap them off. The guys hanging the blueboard just board to the shims.... so the RO is still accessible to tweak the jambs as needed. He does snap them off before the plasterers start though.... it's easier for them to get a smooth finish without having to work around the shims.View Image
I'd try to find the actually size of the windows and doors, and make sure the the RO was exactly (about) an inch bigger than the unit fitting in...
Why would you have to do that and not get the RO's from the windows and doors your using? If your using Andersen and the RO's aren't on the plans, get the RO's from the Andersen book.
Sounds like you get the windows and doors to the jobsite first and then measure them. If so, why?
Joe Carola
Right... I wouldn't expect to get the windows to the jobsite first and measure them on a total house construction project, (although I often do have that luxury on the smaller re-models I've done), but if I ever were doing a whole house, I wouldn't be able to resist the temptation now to pay attention to all the dimensional specs on the windows and not just the manufactures recommended RO.
Just curious, from those who say they always follow the manufacture recommended RO's... do they ever vary in the tolerance there RO's give for windows? "In my opinion" - 1/2" on all sides is ideal.
And, are RO's always a nominal or routine size?... like 2'-8". 3'-0", etc...
we always frame to the mfr's RO
some things are prettty standard ...like exterior doors ( nominal size plus 2" in width & 2 1/2" in ht )
but you still have to pay attention to finishes and make sure you're not working yourself into a boxMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"I'd try to find the actually size of the windows and doors, and make sure the the RO was exactly (about) an inch bigger than the unit fitting in... giving a half inch wiggle room on all sides, for shims, and spray foam to seal the unit into place. Nailing fins, brickmold, etc... work fine with 1/2 RO gap."That is totally ridiculous and unprofessional.First - you don't TRY to find out the ROs, you pick up the book or look at the planms and you DO find what they are supposed to be.Then you FRAME THEM RIGHT - the size that is written down to avoid over or undersizing the openings and causing problems.You are trying to re-invent the wheel without knowing what round is here.
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"Why do you automatically think it's the framers fault?"Good point.
When the RO is only 1/16" + all around a window, it is because the plans specified ROs for one brand of window, then somebody changed to another brand with different ROs.Even within same brand the RO can be slightly diff when changing from clad to wood or back.
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Making an RO too large creates worse problems than what you are complaining of
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I hate having to cut around window and door openings where the drywallers have run their boards proud. Its a little thing, but you usually only notice it when you are walking towards the window with your hands full of casing and tools. Plus at that stage everything is swept and clean, and you don't feel like the dust and bits of gypsum add much to the house.
I've aways wondered too, why drywallers (when the windows must have already been in place) run their rock so tightly up to the window or door jambs - proud over the rough openings as you said. it must take them extra time to get such a perfect fit to the window / door jambs. I don't understand any benifit from this... it gets covered with casing.
When I'm doing replacments, first thing I'll do after the old unit comes out is cut out, or knock out the excessive gyp board, back to where it's even with the rough opening. It buys me the wiggle room I need to get the new window in and just right, and the gap around it get's filled with spray foam. Even if I'm replaceing the window or door from the outside which is typical, and the interior casing stays intact, that dang drywall all inside of the rough opening has got to go everytime.
I guess as a side track to this thread... what un-nesessary things do we see people do before us?
Only time jambs are in place is when I'm replacing old plaster with drywall, in which cas I rotozip it, just as I would ceiling cans or elec. boxes. That leaves about 1/8" gap.
Thing is, I don't see how it makes a difference how tight the drywall is to the jamp. Trim goes on the same either way.
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Edited 6/28/2008 4:24 am by Ted W.
If the jamb is bowed in towards the middle of the window the drywall has to be cut back to make the jamb straight. Otherwise the window won't open properly.
That makes sense. However, that's the sort of thing I would fix before the drywall went up. That's one of the benefits of being the do-all contractor. I guess in many cases the drywall would already be hung before the trim carpenter even sees the job.--------------------------------------------------------
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"If the jamb is bowed in towards the middle of the window the drywall has to be cut back to make the jamb straight."That is the window installers creation, not the sheetrock guys
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I'm not a drywaller, but just did my own house. I cut the window openings with a rotozip...very fast...which leaves about 1/16" all around. That is probably a common practice. As you can imagine, replacement windows are the last thing on my mind as a build a new home!
Regarding drywall being proud, this should go back to the window manufacturers. I think there was just an article in FHB that addressed this. If only window jambs were fabricated an 1/8" deeper to account for the irregularities often encountered in wall framing. I would love to plane the jambs back to the drywall rather than beating the drywall back to the jambs. I my case, I'm making all the trim from rough stock so I plan to releive the back as necessary on a case by case to get a tight fit. I also like the craftsman style frames shown in the article, since the miters in my last house make the drywall/jamb relationship show up even more.
who planes jambs? shim behind the casing. this way all the mitres line up and everything is nice and planar to the wall. when i put in jamb extensions, i measure the widest point between jamb and drywall face and rip my extension to that. easy peasy, lemon squeezy.
"I've aways wondered too, why drywallers (when the windows must have already been in place) run their rock so tightly up to the window or door jambs - proud over the rough openings as you said. it must take them extra time to get such a perfect fit to the window / door jambs. I don't understand any benifit"The full sheet is hung overlapping the window, and the window frame becomes a guide for the cutout tool with an eighth inch bit that takes all of 20 seconds to zip around the frame
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I've never been able to get those roto zips to work for me but if it only take 20 seconds then the next guy will only need 20 more seconds to make the gap as wide as he wants it. I don't understand how a trimmer can properly shim the windows without opening up a much wider space to work in and I suspect that they don't bother shimming the jamb and then blame the framers when the window doesn't operate properly later on down the road. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
In my book, the windows should be installed right before the sheetrock guys get there. If the GC can't set things up right, no reason to blame the sheetrockers.
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how old was the house and how old was the brand new door?
can't expect things to line up exactly.
that's why we call it remodeling.
that's why U get paid the big bucks to make it all fit.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
and if I had the choice ...
I'd stop bitching at the framers ... who's work I can adjust ...
and start with the brick layers!
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
Over the past few yrs I've done reno's in the same 70's development. High end river homes. On the whole the frame is quality, the finish beautiful.
One recurring problem which surprised me in the first home is the seemingly lifelong laminate jobs. All the tops are glued down. On some, they conserved. Most they had an abundance of qt tubes. Sure, with patience and flat bars you can break the joint but keeping the face frames together and pristine ain't so easy.
So please. On "replaceable" items, use the common sense approach in your fastening.
Adding flooring? don't bury the base.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
Edited 6/28/2008 7:43 am ET by calvin
One of my pet peeves is when the finish carpenter traps the door butts (hinges) with the trim molding. So if you ever need to get the door off, you have to unscrew one side of the hinges, rather than just pull the pins. Or cabinetry that is trapped by the trim for say a door or window.
Had an incident last year where the guy I was subbing for told me to yank down the cabinets while he put a second coat of mud on the dw in another room. The cabinets looked to be in good shape--I thought maybe new doors and hardware would spruce them up fine. Nope, he said, h.o. wanted new. So I begin dismantling them and find that everything, like door and window trim, was put in after the cabinets, so basically I had to destroy the cabinets to get them out.
H.O. comes home and looks at our work and asks me what happened to her cabinets--the ones she was buying new doors for and had already bought new hardware for. I said that I had been told to remove them. She asked me to put them back up and I had to tell her that the pile of smashed wood at her curb was the cabinets and if she wanted cabinets back where they were, we'd have to get new ones. She was not amused.
"Had an incident last year where the guy I was subbing for told me to yank down....."Was this Mark again?
TFB (Bill)
Yeah, it was he (Marc).
But I'm learning to be more forgiving--I've made some beaut mistakes too recently!
(Like building a housing for a crawl space ventilation fan that fits in an empty block space so I could stick it in a window to ventilate out bathroom. Spent days putting it all together and wiring it. Plug it in before the final finishing, just to check that it works--it doesn't. But is was warranteed, so I sent it back and got a replacement (which I took out of the box, wired in a replacement cord and plugged it in--this one works!))
Danno,Not checking for the fan operation is miniscule compared to not understanding the homeowner's wishes of new frames and doors vs new boxes too! Your booboo was an inconvenience to you, Marc's fu cost somebody some real money and frankly made you look like a doofus in the eyes of the homeowner as you stood by the pile of debris.Marc consistently causes you grief, extra work, frustration, and putting you in a position of defending his instructions or decisions.I truly hope you are working on a plan to break away from this yahoo so that you can excel on your own accord.TFB (Bill)
Am doing more work on my own--and more work around my own house that was overdue.
[Have two sq. ft. of iridescent glass tile ordered (all I could afford at $40/sq.ft.!) to make a sculpture with. Figure if I'm trying to call myself an artist, maybe I should start creating some art!]
[As I said in previous posts, my most recent job with Marc was yanking out all the work I did three years ago for a homeowner, (who at the time, when I suggested she hire Marc, indicated she didn't like his work that much) decided to replace everything I did. Kind of disheartening ripping out perfectly good window boxes I built out of cedar so they'd last, ripping off alum. siding I'd painted and it still looked good (though dented in places), tore out my tub surround (apparently molded?--said I hadn't done it right (over drywall, not tile backer). He soffited and sided over a nice barrel-vaulted porch dormer so now it has a flat celing and triangular gable. She asked me what I thought and I said I would have at least put in a half-circular piece of stained or frosted glass with the house number on it in the gable. She laughed.)]
Glad your breaking away.I agree it would be disheartening to rip out stuff you did fairly recently. Especially if the artist in you was heavily invested in the project.Stay the course regarding Marc.TFB (Bill)
<<<<the guy I was subbing for told me to yank down the cabinets while he put a second coat of mud on the dw in another room. The cabinets looked to be in good shape--I thought maybe new doors and hardware would spruce them up fine. Nope, he said, h.o. wanted new.>>>>
so.... don't leave us hanging ...what's the GC do ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
For ROs, an Amish crew boss gave me his rule of thumb when looking at the RO schedule, all full of fractions.
He pulled his jobworn tape from his belt, the first couple inches with the paint and markings nearly gone.
"You see any fractions there? We round 'em up to the nearest inch. Never had a problem."
When the window order came in, they fitted a man-platform to their Lull, marching around the house and popping in the windows. Never had to fight a tight one.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Romantic.... with the job-worn tape and all.... but dumb none the less. Ever install a nailing flange window in an RO that's an inch too big? Ever frame a bank of windows where each RO and it's placement is critical? Ever nail off brick-mold when the RO is too big? What's so hard about framing to the RO? Are 'fractions' really so confusing?
Then again.... Amish.... you get what you pay for.View Image
I used to work for a builder who subtracted 1/4" from all rough openings--but his frames were nearly perfect every time--as plumb/level and square as you will ever find. Windows and doors always slid right in.
this place is starting too see too many ametures advising ametures how to avoid doing it right
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"this place is starting too see too many ametures advising ametures how to avoid doing it right"...
Ok, you busted me... I'm not a full time profesional framer who's framed 10s of thousands of ROs in the past 20 years.
I do occasionally question buiding practices that are generally execpted as standard, thinking there might be a better way.... I'm weird like that.
Edited 6/29/2008 11:31 am ET by drbgwood
Edited 6/29/2008 11:37 am ET by drbgwood
OK, then - let's get down to learning from professionals instead of sewing a dog's leg onto a three legged cat.start with the facts ma'am! You found that the RO for that door was tight. What exact size was it farmed to and what size prehung door were you installing?I'm betting the RO was not framed right to begin with - so learn how to do that right instead of trying to re-invent the whole construction process.I'll start -
We frame interior doors RO the finish size + 2" for width and 6'10-1/2" height above subfloor.
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Sorry for continuing to beat this dead horse, but...
So a for a 3-0 door, you add 2 inches and the RO will be 38". which counting the jambs leaves 1/2 wiggle room for the door side to side, or 1/4 inch on each side. If everything is strait and perfect, and the framer didn't accidently err a quarter inch on the stingy side, yeah the door goes right in with no problem.
I guess when I get to a house a few years later when the door / jamb is falling apart and they want a new one, things may a have shifted a little, and it's often a hassle getting a new one back in it's place.
I rarely have any trouble with the hight of an RO.
I also like to add some waterproofing details to the bottoms of rough openings which I seldom find in place under the existing, and I like to use spray foam to seal the door jamb to the jamb lining (and I never find this done on existing), which with a 1/4 inch on both sides - or less sometimes, is difficult to do effectively.
So I'll stick to my guns... if I were framing in a RO for an exterior door, or window, I'll make sure it's got 1/2" on both sides.
Edited 6/29/2008 3:44 pm ET by drbgwood
I think your method will work fine for yourself, however, getting a competent professional to frame this much oversize is just plain unlikely to happen. If the framing/framer(s) is likely to be that far off, why would you want them as a framer in the first place? I certainly wouldn't, and I would cringe at the prospect of trimming out behind that level of work. It's just cr^p in my book. Besides, if the framer's R.O.'s are that sloppy, there's certain to be more/bigger problems elsewhere. JMO.
Since you don't seem to want to let this die, I will correct you once again. :)
1. You don't just "add 2 inches" to get an exterior door RO. You get the RO from the manufacturer. And that RO will usually be about 1" to 1 1/4" larger than the outside dimension of the frame. Pretty much what you're looking for anyway.
2. You do simply add 2 1/2" to the slab size for 'most' interior doors to get the RO.
If you were a GC and I were framing for you, I would consider directly measuring all your windows and doors and making my own RO's. But you would pay me for my time. Or you could do it yourself. Either way, I can pretty much guarantee that at least one would be wrong no matter who did the measuring. And in the end, we would have been better off simply using the manufacturer's RO's from the get-go. Think about it.... you're talking about somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 or 40 chances to screw up on the average house.
Not to mention you would have to have all your windows onsite before we even begin framing walls. And I would assume ZERO liability for those windows being onsite for that long a period of time. Additionally, window sizes, count, and locations frequently change as things come together... especially on a one of a kind custom. So it's very likely that within a few years you would have a garage full of windows at your house that ended up being unused or incorrect. Either way.... you'd own 'em. Because you would have had to order them long before you were truly ready for them. And that's bound to generate a few mistakes.
I think your idea for a thread is a great one. But you're killing me with this RO thing. You keep trying to correct a problem that doesn't need correcting. In the case(s) you're running into, it simply wasn't framed right from the beginning. I can't say why cuz it could be a variety of different things....but my guess would be one of two things... the framer framed it wrong or the RO wasn't available at the time it was framed... so someone took a stab at it and came pretty close. Which was apparently 'good enough' for them. Either way.... there is no solution for the 'good enough' or 'pretty close' mentality.View Image
OK, so frame it another half over on interior doors.But with manufactured windows, stick to what the makers specifiy.But with the examples you give of why you'd frame another half over is for things that happen with a poorly built house. You know - the framer can't read a tape so his jacks are 1/4" too close or the house shifts - well that is poorly built too. So you are saying that if you build the house....hmmm;)See where I am going? Poorly built is poorly built. It is going to cause problems anyways. you can't expect the poor builder to then take different steps to overcorrect for his own failings. Those steps will be a failure in and of themselves.
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I was taught to add 2" to the nominal width of a door. But like Diesel says, you better check. Therma Tru doors, which are common around here, require 2 1/2". Learned that the hard way. Regarding the original topic, I spend some effort framing a house so it is easy on the subs. Making sure there are studs for the shower valve, no joists under a drain, even if it means moving a wall by a few inches. One time I did all this, and this young hotshot plumber shows up to rough in. Only later did I discover that he REMOVED a stud to run a bit of horizontal drain. Instead of drilling it, he just got rid of it. Guess he figured sheetrock was fine on 32" centers. So I needed to put a stud back, but there was a 1 1/2 inch drain line in the way. Man I was steaming. Saved himself the 10 minutes to drill a stud and cost me an hour of dinking around. I complained to his boss and we never saw him again. I think the sub that most often gets screwed is the insulator. Noone seems to give insulation a second thought.
"Therma Tru doors, which are common around here, require 2 1/2". Learned that the hard way."I was talking interior myself. With exterior, you find some makers who downsize, so you can order a 2868 and find out THAT is the RO!
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Haven't run into that one yet. At least your hole won't be small. Easier to fill in that make it bigger.Never had a problem on interior doors except...had a bunch of 20 minute smoke sealed doors in a lodge remodel that needed 6-11 tall RO's. The tried and true 6-10 1/2 didn't cut it. An oops like that and it gets a lot easier to get motivated to pick up the phone and find out the RO from the supplier.
I think it was a Pella order that had the RO that size. I called the architect for the RO,cause it was so even number on the plans I assumed it was nominal.He told me that was right. I could not believe it and made him look it up to confirm, then I called the rep myself.It slid right in!
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Yep, alot of that going on. I recently read a post where a guy needed either cables or rods in tension to serve as collar ties. One of the posts suggested just smashing metal electrical conduit flat at each end and screwing it to the rafters. I had no idea it could be so simple. But that is who the magazine is targeting now, isn't it?View Image
You and Piffin are right; both about the amateur advice, (some of mine has been laughable, at best), and about the readership of the mag. I'm admittedly a total novice compared to most of the regulars here.
But, the O.P. asked a good question about making life easier for the next guy. (In addition, of course, to commenting questionably on R.O.'s).
My not too brilliant offering was a) bury chases and b) keep nails either over studs or out of the center of boards (esp. for top plates) so plumbers and electricians won't wreck their bits and bodies.
I'd be very interested to hear what a framer as experienced as yourself appreciates from the previous guy (Bolt location? Site prep? Anything?) and what you think are worthwhile extra steps you'd do for the next guy.
Just trying to learn here. Thanks.
k
I think the main thing framers look for, is a foundation thats level and square.
Plus not having concrete forms and block to trip over while working.
"I think the main thing framers look for, is a foundation thats level and square"
Yeah, or close, anyway. And that can be hard enough to get sometimes...
But let me ask it this way- if you were building the forms and placing the bolts for a job you yourself were then going to frame, would you do anything special to make your life easier? Or is it not worth the time to figure every last ideal bolt location? Seriously, I'm asking.
Or, if you were framing a job that you were going to trim out (or drywall, or plumb, or wire) yourself?
I get to work foundation to finish, and I'm constantly making judgement calls like, "oh that wood is all crappy, let's use LSL for the trimmers, It'll make our lives easier when we're hanging doors and casing windows". Or "jeez, lets space those A.B.'s a little closer than the engineer spec'd, so we don't have to notch our studs", etc. etc.
I'm sure some of what I do is real silly, but some is real helpful. We're thinking about it, b/c we are the next guy... I'd love to hear what the real pros would do for the next guy, especially if they are the next guy.
k
"A.B.'s"?Edjumacate me.TFB (Bill)
Anchor Bolts.
They always seem to end up right under a jack/king stud layout...
Say you're required to have 'em every six feet, but you look at your framing, and find if you space 'em 5' 9 1/2" you'll miss every stud on that wall...
k
Edited 6/29/2008 2:31 pm ET by KFC
Gatcha, thanks. I was having a mental block. I have done exactly what you are describing it ABs just didn't register.
TFB (Bill)
yeah, and I called them bolts then I called them AB's, so I don't get any points for consistency either.
I know a designer/engineer/gc who used to spec the exact locations of bolts rather than spacing, to keep them from ending up under posts and studs, but it seemed like they ended up there anyway, so he started leaving them out entirely and drilling and epoxying them after wall layout.
I doubt that's any faster than moving or notching studs, but his structures were tightly designed, and he didn't want changes and butchery and such...
The thing is, there's a conflict between wholistic systematic theory and highly specialized reality. As Dieselpig pointed out, it'd be crazy for a framer to do a lot of extra work to help the next guy out if it's just transferring profit to that next sub. And it's not too common to find a GC or HO who wants (or can even guess) what is going to make the whole job cost less, even if it costs more at any given stage.
That's why I posed the question as "if you were the next guy after yourself", at least then you're not giving your kid's dental plan $ to the drywaller following you...
D.P. did have a lot to offer in his post though. The thing about narrow casings is something you see all the time, and most of the time we can only shake our heads and keep going. I hope we all get GC's and clients who appreciate and pay us to point out stuff like that.
k
I hear you, Brian and others as well have had some good thoughts.
Nailing the top plates over the studs never occured to me but it makes perfect since and costs nothing. TFB (Bill)
My electrician, an ex-navy guy, is a terror. Early on he set me straight about only nailing top plates together over studs, and he grabs and tries to twist studs to see if the two nails are too close together. It drives him nuts when plumbers centre their drain under the bathroom sink, then run their vent straight up - right where he wants to put the light box. I pretty much do what he says, partly because his price is determined by whether he likes you or not.
You're right in calling me on not sticking to the topic. It is a very valid question and a great topic for a thread.
So, as a framer... there's a few things I like to see. I always say there's only four things I need/want, but that's not always true.
The four main things are:
1. A set of plans that are thorough, detailed, and actually work. That's why they call them "the plans" and not the "good ideas".
2. I want direct control of the lumber drops, ordering, delivery, and sequence.
3. I want my checks on time.
4. I want a workable site; decent grade, toilet, power, and a reasonably level and square foundation.
If I get those things you won't hear from me ever again. Your job will be built for exactly the price I quoted you and I won't need you to do anything except drive by on Fridays and poke a check out the window of your air conditioned cab.
As far as what I can/could do to help out the trades that follow me...well.. there's a lot really. My main problem is that there's more that I'd like to do, but I know I won't get paid to do it.... so I don't. I have to draw the line somewhere between the tradesman in me and the businessman in me.
Here a few of the things I can think of off the top of my head that don't really cost me anything so we've made them standard practice.
1. Don't locate joists in the way of plumbing drains. Sounds easy, but it's not. And believe it or not, not every one does it. However sometimes I do find it easier to 'frame through' areas and then go back and cut in what is necessary after the plumber has done his layout. I don't always know what the plumber will need. And just like I look at a set of plans and say "that ain't gonna work" so does he.... and I don't often see what he sees..... so sometimes it is more cost effective and accurate to wait and cut in after.
2. If a rough opening just barely fits in a given location I bring it to the GC's attention. One of two things will have to happen... the unit will need to be downsized.... or the casing will need to be ripped. I don't like for GC's to be blind sided by this choice (which is what will happen if I just frame it) so I give them the option before they go ahead and unknowingly order the unit only to find that they now won't be able to trim it properly.
3. Showers. For custom tiled showers (no insert of any kind) we always glue and screw (3) 2X's down for the shower curb. On my own house, I didn't glue and screw and the tile cracked about 6 months later. I learned that lesson first hand.
4. Also shower related.... we always locate where the mixer valve will be centered in the wall and then place a stud 6" to either side of that location. Leaving a 12" stud bay centered right where the valve will be.
5. If possible I like to talk to the mason before I start framing his rough opening. They all seem to like certain things. Some like code minimum clearances so that they don't have to do any extra work. Some like more room to work and will then fir the framing back in themselves. Where an exterior chimney may pass through trim... same type of thing. Some like to cut it back themselves (they either don't trust my layout or their own, I dunno) while other like me to leave them an opening to aim for.
6. I love talking to the finish guys to see how they like things set up for them. They seem to be the ones who bitch about the framers the most and can really make you look bad. The problem is... they all way things set up differently.... so you can never win unless you ask them. And anything other than the way they want it, make you a "hack" in their book. For instance, on my last frame this finish guy wants all the RO's for 6'8" door to be 83 1/2" from the subfloor. Now I've been framing that RO to 82 1/2 for about 10 years now and never had a complaint. Even did my own house that way. However, it's not what this finish guy wants, so he made a big stink about it. And the GC asked me.... how come you framed the interior door RO's so tight on the last house? I didn't know I had!
He also likes a few different things on his rough stair frames. He like us to typically pack out the stringer from a wall with a 2x. That's SOP for me anyway. But then, on top of that, he wants us to install a 10" rip of plywood sitting directly on that packer and nailed to the wall. Gives him good nailing for his skirts I suppose. The blue board just gets set on top of it and the top edge of the skirt covers the seam. See, I like that. It's easy, it's smart, doesn't cost me much... and make me look like a hero!
7. We actually shim our windows and doors. Crazy, but most framers around here don't. I shim all corners. I don't shim the jambs though... and I have several reasons for that... enough for a whole thread of it's own really. Basically.... wood moves. And when I'm there.... it's too early to be attaching finishes permanently to the studs.
8. We really try to help out the roofers as best we can. We install a lot of I&W shield as we're installing roof line trim. After alot of our trim goes on, it's just about impossible to effectively work it in there afterwards. And we pay careful attention to our cuts for trim that terminates at the shingles. We make sure to leave enough room for them to get their shingles in there and still have there be space between the wood and the roof when it's finished.
Getting awful long here, so I'll just add a few of the things I'd like to do, but don't, cuz it's labor intensive and I don't get paid for it.
1. I'd like to really install our windows the right way. I'd like to start with a Vycor sill pan. And then properly wrap the rough opening in housewrap. Then install the window and shim it accordingly. Then tape the flanges with Vycor. Nobody wants to pay for that except when you're occasionally working for a well informed homeowner or a great GC like the one I just wrapped up working for. It's the exception and not the rule though.
2. Blocking. I'd like to block every bathroom all the way around at about 36" with 2x12 blocks. Then I'd like to block where all the vanities/cabinets will go. Same with kitchens.... I'd like to block for the upper and lower cabinets. And I'd like to block everywhere crown molding will be installed. But nobody wants to pay for it.
3. I'd like to use the Kreg jig on every window I case on site. And anywhere else that I can really.
4. I'd like to studs in walls for all basement mechanical rooms and then sheath the interior in OSB. It's neat, tidy, looks great, and gives everyone good solid places to attach their own work. And it sets the tone for the rest of the subs too. When done properly, a good mechanical room can like you just opened up a panel on the side of the Space Shuttle by the time the other subs are done there.
Gotta go do some work outside, but I'll think more on this and get back to you guys.View Image
Thanks, D.P.
k
We actually shim our windows and doors. Crazy, but most framers around here don't.
Man, don't get me started. *EVERY* clamshell door in my house was hung in less than 1 minute, guaranteed. It makes me crazy. I've tried to fix a few by shimming under the hinges but it's nearly impossible, because - as you know - I'm only moving the door, not the frame.
Blocking. I'd like to block every bathroom all the way around at about 36" with 2x12 blocks. Then I'd like to block where all the vanities/cabinets will go. Same with kitchens.... I'd like to block for the upper and lower cabinets. And I'd like to block everywhere crown molding will be installed. But nobody wants to pay for it.
I've let in blocking before which is pretty easy - but still possibly too time consuming for your operation. Cut the pocket before you build the walls. When they're up, just nail in the 2x. Easier than cutting the pocket is cutting a notch for a sheet of plywood which will hold 99% of cabinets just as well.
I think the theme of the discussion is a good one and the answers have been good, but everyone needs to realize that the whole building and the process of building is a system and an idea that seems really good in one respect, may really mess things up in another.
One such example is too much room for windows. Yes, a lot of "wiggle room" gives the installer plenty of room to slide the windows in and to shim them, but even shimming gets crazy with too big a gap--always fun to try to hold two or three stacked shims while nailing the window (of course you can always go to plywood rips, or even 1x's! But much beyond 3/4" gaps, you might as well take the window out and nail in new spacers and try again). Like Piffen said, what do you nail the flange to when the gap is big enought that the flange lines up with air?--air doesn't hold nails too well and angling them enough to catch the framing is hard too. Even nailing into edges of plywood rips doesn't work all that well.
There is a temptation when building to build for the immediate problem at hand and to foget the integration of what you are working on to the whole system. But everything should be balanced. For example, for a while (70-s - 80's) there was a big push for insulation and houses you could heat with one 60 watt light bulb or a candle. So you put R-100 in walls and R-300 (exaggerating a bit here) and no air movement, then find out that mold and mildew are growing like crazy and the occupants of the home are getting sick from all the bad things in the air. Pendulum swings. FLW and others before that were building walls of lapped vertical 1x's (R-2, if lucky) and that had its own set of problems. Balance is the key, Grashoppers!
Edited for spelling.
Edited 6/29/2008 3:55 pm ET by Danno
You are right - we got sidetracked on the specifics of his bad situation and incorrect solution and didn't discuss the decent point he was asking about.Doing things right the first time and not leaving a mess behind is what is one my mind right now. Amazing how many guys can't use a broom.
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yeah, well, he seems more interested in the side track now anyway!
oh well.
k
and how many nailing fins missed having something to fasten too?
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Aside from the R.O. debate...
One thing I try to do is bury chases under walkways, patios or retaining walls.
I bury a section of 4" pvc, capped off, that passes under whatever concrete work I'm laying down. I then give a rough map of locations to the HO.
Even if I don't guess exactly the right spot, the chases are still incredibly helpful.
It's the kind of thing that's so easy to do when you're rough grading- ten bucks in mats., a trench and you're good to go. I've come back to my own work and found my buried treasures years later. Makes me look real smart when I get that electrical or water to the cottage without carving up the patio.
k
I ran voice and data, and electrical wireing for about 15 years before I started my re-modeling operation. Having chases put in ahead of time like you mention is worth it's weight in gold.
On a mulit story house, I'd see to it that there was a few extra chases between the craw and the attic.
A chase with a pre-installed pull-string in it... that just get's me all warm and fuzzy.
Yeah, chases are a good thought, I like to install them where practicable as well. Other times I will add labelled wire for possible future use especially in locations like from near the main panel to an open attic.
It is nice to screw things together that one can expect will need to be removed or replaced by somebody in the fullness of time. It will, of course, make their job easier, perhaps enable them to salvage/reuse the original material and hey, that person could be you. (And that time could be sooner than you think.)
We put a chase from the attic to a communication box in the basement for satellite TV hook up. Owner never told his satellite guy so they did the standard thing of wrapping cable around the house, over the roof, and poking it thru the walls. Sometimes you try and don't get anything out of it.John
No doubt frustrating for all concerned, hopefully your chase will yet be of some use in the future.
Similar thing. We ran the cable and installed a block outside the house they could tap. Had the wiring to each inside likely location for a TV.Then his son had the sat put in and never asked. The installers ruined some good siding to do it all, and they were only five feet away from the block going in at one place.
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We prewired an apartment for the cable entrance, the cable guy came saw the wire said "what is this? hmmm" and cut the wire off.
I find it helpful to grease certain mechanical connections to make future disassembly easier. Some bolts, some plumbing assemblies etc. of course this has to be done judiciously so as not to compromise the integrity of a connection. It sure can make it a lot easier to change a washer on a tap 10 years later.
I've been spending the past week replacing an exterior soffit on the house because of the ####** roofing job done by a previous. I estimated 2 days..... It's day 4 and I JUST have all the rot off, it's going to take another 5 days give or take to get it re built, and a new slider door put in which will be fun *eye roll*
Yes, my best friend is a hammer.
When laying out floor joist the first joist and the last joist should be set in from the box the same distance.
If im framing something new i make thr RO what it calls for, As was said Anderson has its own as others.
However the last remodel i did i had 3 windows in one wall and gave an extra one half inch.
The floor was not level with the ceiling and with that extra one half inch i was able to have the tops of all the windows line up.
Theres no book for those situations so it can be a valid point
Although this should always be done by framers i was startled to see its not,we eye every stud for straightness and wows but are very anal in the kitchen.
Having a perfect straight wall there makes the cabinets and countertops go in nice
Although this should always be done by framers i was startled to see its not,we eye every stud for straightness and wows but are very anal in the kitchen.
Having a perfect straight wall there makes the cabinets and countertops go in nice
Since when isn't that done by framers? That's taught day one as a newbe framer. Framing 101.
Joe Carola
I could say the same thing about Rough openings
I could say the same thing about Rough openings
Say what? Are you trying to say that all framers don't sight for straight studs and make the correct rough openings?
Joe Carola
I have absolutely no idea why you choose to single me out and be on my case, Im very sorry my tip was too elementary for you, I was not aware you were the tip critic on this thread, I suppose im outta my league with your pearls of wisdom but i am glad i could be your little whipping boy and give you the chance to play the "hero".I will go to the Tavern joke thread now with some knock knock jokes and give the floor to you
I have absolutely no idea why you choose to single me out and be on my case, Im very sorry my tip was too elementary for you, I was not aware you were the tip critic on this thread, I suppose im outta my league with your pearls of wisdom but i am glad i could be your little whipping boy and give you the chance to play the "hero".
What the hell ....are you talking about? How did I get your little panties in a bunch? Whipping boy!!! You like getting whipped by men......HERO!!! I'm no hero asking some ignorant nobody talking nonsense about framers.
Although this should always be done by framers i was startled to see its not,we eye every stud for straightness and wows but are very anal in the kitchen.
That was you, right? I didn't single you out. You made that comment about framers not straightening studs, right?. I told you that's not true. What don't you like about what I said? Where's the tip? Straightening out studs, is a tip. Are you for real! Her's a tip for you, If you don't want to get questioned so that you don't cry keep your mouth shut when you don't know what you're talking about
I could say the same thing about Rough openings
You said that also. I asked if your saying framers don't frame the right RO's. What didn't you like about that? You have something to say that makes no sense about framers and you don't like getting questioned. Are you smoking something!!
I will go to the Tavern joke thread now with some knock knock jokes and give the floor to you
You're like a little b!tch aren't you. Go upstairs and have a good cry after you get done getting whipped.
Joe Carola
Hey Joe - all he did was report that some framers don't do that ( and that is true some are idiots ) and you seemed to take it personally, jumping all over him for reporting a simple fact while trying to share a tip. It is a good one for newbies who haven't taken framing 101 yet.You got a sliver under your thumbnail tonight? Somethings sure got you in a turmoil
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Hey Joe - all he did was report that some framers don't do that ( and that is true some are idiots ) and you seemed to take it personally, jumping all over him for reporting a simple fact while trying to share a tip.
Piffin,
He said,"Framers", not some. I questioned him in my first post. He comes back with a smart #### remark about rough openings and framers. Did you take that as a tip also? That's two. So I ask about it. He comes back with his third stupid post. So, you take both of his posts as referring to, "Some Framers" and take them as tips? No me, that's not the way I took. I said what I said because his last post was ridiculous.
It is a good one for newbies who haven't taken framing 101 yet.
If that's what he wanted to do, he should've said that in his straightening wood post and his rough opening post, not say "Framers".
Joe Carola
Joe upon further review you are correct about it being a too simple tip for framers, However i really dont know whos a framer or not, im sorry for the hero remark.. just because i dont toot my horn does not make me less, Perhaps you could have worded it like this.Bobby thats a awfully simple tip for a framer Do you have any we could use. i admire many of the skills here and never said a cross word i just felt as i did not deserve being graded either
Perhaps you could have worded it like this.
Bobby thats a awfully simple tip for a framer Do you have any we could use.
Bobby,
I'm telling you the God's honest truth that I did not take both of your posts as tips. You said ,"Framers" in your first post and that told me that you meant all framers. Your second post about the RO's I took as being sarcastic.
Joe Carola
Here is what he said"Although this should always be done by framers i was startled to see its not"in other words, it is not ALWAYS done by framers.If you want to contend that all framers everywhere always do it be my guest.
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Piffin,
It's over now.
Joe Carola
I see that.You Jersey guys are like family. Fight like cats and dogs, then kiss and hug while the blood is still dripping;)
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You Jersey guys are like family. Fight like cats and dogs, then kiss and hug while the blood is still dripping
You got that right....Cuz...............;-)
Joe Carola
No joe your the one that "graded" me first by saying its 101. There were how many posts about RO but you said nothing to them , Every thing said here seemed simple to me but i never thought to grade them, Hey i never framed a wrong RO in my whole career unless someone else gave me the wrong RO..Your right thats a simple tip.
years ago i went to see Mickey Mantle at Yankee stadium, He was working on the right cut off man while Yogi was playing fungo.was that to simple for them????.How come the others tips were not simple just mine????.I did not know you were king framer here and i was the nobody.i framed houses in jersey when you were in school but dont remember calling anyone there a beeth or gradeing them
You said, "Framers", right? That means, "Framers", not some, it means, "Framers".
There were how many posts about RO but you said nothing to them , Every thing said here seemed simple to me but i never thought to grade them, Hey i never framed a wrong RO in my whole career unless someone else gave me the wrong RO..
There was a thread about RO's , yes and ...........I had a lot to say in that thread. What does that have to do with what you said? You also implied with that comment that framers don't frame the right ro's.
How come the others tips were not simple just mine????.
What the hell are you talking about????? I read your post and only your post. What the hell is wrong with you? If you want to give out tips, that's not the way to say it. I singled out Bobby.............give me a break Bobby. Are you done whining now?
I did not know you were king framer here and i was the nobody.
Hey, Bobby, look, you want to post stupid sh!t to me and go back and forth because you think I singled you out when you singled yourself out, go ahead. I'll return the favor. Sometimes I say stupid sh!t also, like I did before. I'm am by far NOT no King Framer and don't think I am. I asked you a simple question and you come back with Joe's whipping me garbage.
I honestly thought you meant that Framers don't straighten studs and don't make the correct RO's.
You want to keep going back and forth fine. If not that's fine also.Joe Carola
maybe you thought i was degrading framers which i had no intention to, again your right it would be a foolish tip to real framers, the 2d thing i said about ro was not meant for you just others were talking about simple framing things not just me. I think we misunderstood each other what would you think if i graded you???. However i remember liking what you posted before so i will say im sorry and head for the kids table. If i wuz not a wiseazz you would never believe i wuz really from jersey right???
Bobby,
I think it was a misunderstanding and I apologize also.
If i wuz not a wiseazz you would never believe i wuz really from jersey right???
It's in our blood. My 9 year old son is starting to become one. I'm gonna have to slap him around a little..........;-)
Where were you from?
Joe Carola
Thank you joe i wuz born in passaic garfield went to school in Ramsey Framed in Clifton , trenton, Garfield , little ferry, short hills, cherry hills, saddle river, Upper saddle river, Ramsey.Wayne, oakland My dad was a builder after the war . for awhile very big and taught many framers and gave Germans jobs to come over, He gave the framing to his close German friend who lived in Garfield but then was killed in a crash.
That was in the 50s and 60s, later in the 70s i worked with the same Germans.There were not a lot of framing crews then and i was proud to be a good hand for top outfits.Except for short hills and saddle river though we framed mostly colonials, bilevels capes, splits. I see the cut up stuff now and probably would be confused
Except for short hills and saddle river though we framed mostly colonials, bilevels capes, splits.
I see the cut up stuff now and probably would be confused
I started framing in 1983 and the styles haven't changed much. Roof lines were always fun to do. I'm glad I learned on the hard roofs first because it made it easier for me anyway to keep in stuck in my head at a young age.
My first boss always talked about the days when he was framing with handsaws. Can't imagine that. When I stated we had no guns. I started using g guns in 1984 when I moved to Cape Cod. I though I was in heaven when I shot my first nail. Couple weeks later, shot my hand.....
I'll be framing a big addition and Add-a-Level in Short Hills soon.
Joe Carola
"framing with hand saws"
My dad used to talk about that. One of the first jobs he worked on with his old boss, they framed a pretty good sized house in Plainfield. Every cut was made with a hand saw. My dad told me they had one guy on the crew who's only job all day was to sharpen saws. Hit a knot, sharpen a saw.
I'm sure glad I didn't start 'til power tools were common.
My old boss Carl told me they sharpened in the morning and at lunch time. When I framed for him we were hand nailing. After I came back from Cape Cod I worked for him and he was still hand nailing.. It was insane. The only thing I used the handsaw for was to cut the rakes because we ran them long and cut them off later once we put the fascia up.
Can't imagine framing now by hand and without a nail gun. I'm glad I did learn how to frame first nailing by hand because I always loved doing it. We used to have racers to see who can nail off the sheathing first on the roof. I still like nailing by hand whenever I do.
Joe Carola
I worked about 9 years before we got our first nail guns. We actually got them for building the offices inside what is now the Andersen building up at Huston's-Watchung. Heavy Sencos. Gold colored.
A couple of years ago, I was supervising a work crew on a Habitat-like project. This was mostly teenagers. They were sheathing a roof, and did the typical tap tap tap tap, of amateurs. I showed 'em how to set an 8d nail, and drive it home with one shot.
It was also nice that I didn't screw up when I admittedly was showing off a bit. It would have ruined the effect if I had smashed my finger, instead. LOL But it was cool that I still could drive nails like that.
But the real funny thing was the boys wouldn't go on the roof; it was the girls nailing off the sheathing, and putting on the shingles. The guys would feed the materials up to the roof, but wouldn't go on it.
Bob,
Do you remember the sheathing crew called, "Makon"? It was the first sheathing crew I ever seen back in 83. They were a black family and friends. They came up to the job with about 12 people and spread around the whole house and knocked of a 4000 s/f house out in about 3 hours by hand.
Joe Carola
Joe-
maybe if I saw their truck, or some of the crew, I'd remember them, but the name doesn't ring a bell.
Its probably because when I worked with my dad, and did additions, we did everything from the framing to the finish. We only subbed out the masonry, elec., and plumbing/heating.
I've never work on an entirely new house from the beginning. I've trimmed several, tho.
First couple places I framed were with hand saws.Remote locations
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I still carry a couple of hand saws in my van. They don't get used a lot, but do come in handy.
It's funny to see the look on some younger guys faces when you whip out a handsaw
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Yup!
They want to know where the switch is.
Or they're amazed at how fast a SHARP handsaw can cut.
i always carried a 8 and 10 point handsaw in my toolbox along with a dull rip saw. everytime someone wanted to use a handsaw and asked me i gave them that one.I know thats sick but after years of people dulling my saws i had to extract revenge somehow.Sure there was some collateral damage but if i got a plumber now and then it was worth it.
It was great fun to watch them try and cut something and get frustrated.then i could pick up my sharp one and cut a board and say this is how carpenters do it. But plumbers are an evil lot and when theres a leak in a wall they will tear half the wall apart on purpose to get back.I am always amazed how if theres a siding joint they will still go to the other side of it even if its one inch
Edited 7/6/2008 1:04 pm ET by bobbys
You guys gotr me LMAO!But that brings me to my big chance to add a real life TIP to this thread - warning, for newbies only - When using a handsaw, not only should it be sharp ( and kept in a sheathe to keep it so) but you should use the full length of the sawblade to use most of those sharp teeth, instead of rocking back and forth at frantic pace while only using 6" out of th e middle of the blade
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I bought one of the new short saws and kept pulling out of the cut.
Is that post is somehow ripe for a pregnant joke
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I lost my good tip mojo but i promise to come back with some new material and when i do im taking this competion.Its true right now i got nutting but dont count me out just yet.Till then im content to live under Piffens shadow but he knows im waitin for him in a dark ally in Hackensack ready to jump out with good tips.
Personally, I find outlet switches wired in the back (with the push-in pin to release) much more difficult than the traditional wired around the screw types. I'm sure it's easier to wire up the first time, but twisting the outlet around to get a tiny screwdriver into a hole you can barely see when there isn't a lot of wire slack is a real PITA, IMHO.
im glad you said that, thats how i feel too about that, I notice 12g does not push only 14 unless i bought the wrong outlets
I know one of the switches I was working on said for 14 g only.
I would ask at JLC if you went as my wingman but i wont do it alone;]
There used to be receptacles that allowed #12 backstab.But they are no longer UL approved. Now only #14. Don't know how long that it is has been. But I ran in to them with #12 in a house build in the 50's.And the wires where cut just long enough to be able to get them into the back of a receptacle. It would only come out of the box about 1".And the wires ended up being welded in place. I guess that is why they no only allow the #12..
.
A-holes. Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
What you said reminded me of how I appreciate it when the previous guy wrapped electrical tape around the switch or outlet after wiring it so I am less likely to get a shock when pulling it out to work on it.
Do you pull out live outlets to work on them?
Weell, yeah! (I knew someone would get me for that!) But, yeah, I have been known to take off the face plate and unscrew an outlet or switch when drywalling and if I forget and touch the screws with the live wires, it gets exciting (haven't done in in quite a while though--I'm a fast learner and have a low pain threshold!)
Depends on ones mind set I guess
Speaking of lines ripe for pregnant jokes
""instead of rocking back and forth at frantic pace while only using 6""" ;-)
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
That's funny! I gotta remember that.
We never had nail guns but i left in 77, i ruined my knees by nailing off decks in the snow without knee pads. Too hot in the summer there, to cold in the winter.Went back and theres all new roads.We too used our handsaws to cut the pine rakes, i remember bringing my handsaw up on the roof to cut all the pine.I do miss a taylor ham and egg on a good hard roll
We too used our handsaws to cut the pine rakes, i remember bringing my handsaw up on the roof to cut all the pine.
When I framed in the Cape, we used to stick the rake past the fascia 5" so that the gutter was hidden from the side. I wonder if the still do that on some houses.
I do miss a taylor ham and egg on a good hard roll
They are the best, especially on a cold winter day. My son loves them without the cheese because he's allergic. Taylor ham has to be well done for me.
Joe Carola
When I framed in the Cape, we used to stick the rake past the fascia 5" so that the gutter was hidden from the side. I wonder if the still do that on some houses.
"Gutter returns" and yup.... we still do a lot of 'em.View Image
Brian,
I always liked the way they looked. When I framed there back in 84 the precuts were 88". What are they now?
Joe Carola
90% of the time we use 104 5/8" precuts on the first floor and 92 5/8" on the second. I've used 88" precuts in the past but it was for a huge relatively low budget "adult retirement community".... it was like 100 condos broken up into about 20 or 25 buildings. Haven't used 'em since then and that was probably 7 or 8 years ago.
I like 'em though..... cuz I'm 5'8". :)View Image
Heres a few that I have run accross, more for the DIY's.
!. crown studs in the same direction.
2. try to keep layout with existing. (remodels).
3. backer in corners.
4.stagger butt joints when rocking.
5. dont end butt joints right at edge of header opening.(it will crack)
6.put in switches and recepts after taping is done.
7.set screws below drywall surface.
8.dont wrap ext. cords around your arm. (especially mine!)
LOL! No one would want any of my tips and I don't think my flame retardant vest would handle the heat. My only tip: find a job in some other industry. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
My only tip: find a job in some other industry.
Now you tell me, where the hell were you 25-30 years ago?
Doug
Alternative techniques are always useful, either I learn something helpful or I have a laugh and get to feel superior.
Seriously though, it is the interplay of ideas that makes the forum useful and what works for one person, in one area, is not necessarily viable or desireable for someone else. I try to give people the benefit of the doubt and not to take it personally if someone challenges me. It is a chance to learn. Even if all it does is lead me to reevaluate my own assumptions and practices.
Well, if you're up to learning a few lessons in "alternative" carpentry, cut the extended table off your saw and get back to me for step two. Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
I remember you getting critiqued for that practice before but the basic premise that I gleaned was extremely valuable. To wit carrying more and more equipment can become an unnecessary time consuming expensive hassle. Hence, one should try to do more with less (eg. leave the sawzall at home). Thought and organization can replace expense and effort.
Of course people should not be forced to do things that they think are unsafe and some techniques are not for beginners but options that experienced carpenters are comfortable with are well worth considering.
"Of course people should not be forced to do things that they think are unsafe and some techniques are not for beginners but options that experienced carpenters are comfortable with are well worth considering. "Like riding a bike....it seems scary at first, but after that, its not dangerous at all, is it? Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
when I first rode a bike, I remember it not being scary at all!Untill I realized that I didn't have any idea how to stop the darn thing, LOL gotta learn that strategic planning at an early age.
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Your point about crowning studs in same direction reminded me that the framer I worked with did that (guy I work with now doesn't pay any attention to it). We also used to alternate the crown where we were doubling studs--like in doorways. We also put blocking in kitchens for cabinets, but also on each side of headers so homeowner would have something to screw into when putting up curtain rods.