got to thinking about master carpenters. Off hand the first guy I can think of that we all know is Norm Abram. I know that Norm learned his stuff basically through his dad and experinece, not having done a formal appreticeship.
I’m a pretty decent carpenter, I take a lot of pride in my framing, and my finish work is slowly getting there. But I’ve got a long way to go.
what should a Master Carpenter know? ( other than everything) I know that here in Canada and US in lieu of a formal ticket, experince alone can warrant that one be considered a Journeyman, is it the same with Master Carpenter?
My question is at what point are you considered a Master Carpenter? I know that in some countries you actually get tested. Do they have that here as well?
Replies
What the heck.
When they put you into the box and lower you into the ground.
Looks good in the paper.
A Great Place for Information, Comraderie, and a Sucker Punch.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
The notion rank of master carpenter is a myth. At least in this country (some countries have that status). And more of a misnomer coined by Norm and PBS. In the carpentry apprenticeship program there is apprentice and Journeyman status. In some European countries and Japan journeymen carpenters can take an arduous test to become certified as "master" carpenters.
I'm in Japan, from the East Coast of Canada originally, and we use the term 'master carpenter" in Japan for the temple builders.... they are given the title "miya" in front of their name, which signifies rank and is very well respected.
I never really venture too far away from 2x4 building, and North American style furniture, cabinets, etc., so I'll never earn the title, but it doesn't really mean much to me. I think the "master" carpenters just reach a certain level of expertise, and maintain a very high level of work that they always maintain. Its also a confidence thing, and always trying to do jobs the proper way. I've always compared master carpenters here in Japan to samurai. They reach a level of perfection, then strive to maintain that perfection at all times, with pride. Miya carpenters here are just that...
SS
alrightythen,
That designation hasn't been used formally in Canada in dog's years. After being examined by whoever supervises trade examinations in your province, probably the department of education, you are either a failure, a journeyman or an interprovincial journeyman, whose ticket is valid everywhere in the country.
Being a journeyman or even an interprovincial journeyman with the red seal on your ticket does not prevent you from also being a failure.
Ron
you think Norm has a crew of people on his show to tell him how to bild each piece, what bit to use, what saw to use
No. Norm is the real deal.John Svenson, builder, remodeler, NE Ohio
How about something like this-
Master Carpenter-One who's full knowledge of woodworking is
expressed through such skills as to be considered art.
Edited 3/10/2008 8:09 am ET by Henley
brownie,
I don't know what Norm has in the way of skills or advice. I'm a TV ignoramus. I have never seen the show.
I have read one of his books ("Norm Abram's New House", I think it was called) and found it quite good.
P.S. Pardon my familiarity with your nickname. I can't help but smile whenever I see your name on the screen. It reminds me of a great joke I heard.
Ron
A true master is one who knows he will never know enough to be a true master.
any other questions Grasshopper?
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"After the laws of Physics, everything else is opinion"
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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If Pasta and Antipasta meet is it the end of the Universe???
I like that one Master Splinter. View Image View Image
There is no such thing as a Master Carpenter ranking. Highly experienced Journeymen can regard another carpenter as a Master, but Norm would not be on the list. It's just advertising.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I would suspect that the "master" designation-hasn't had much meaning since the demise of the medieval guild system-----probably "master" meant a tradesman who employed recognised journeymen and directed and oversaw their work---and who ALSO engaged in restraint of free trade officially limmiting who could and could not gain entry to a trade.
Here in the new world-once we got off the boat-we had ample natural materials-and severe labor shortages---that guild status restraint--evaporated rapidly
stephen
I know this discussion came up a while back. I just tried a search for the old thread.
Plugged "master carpenter" into the search engine....and got "0" results.
Zero results for master carpenter here at the Breaktime forum.
Either the Prospero search function sucks worse than we joke about, or I really gotta start spending less time here with you losers and more time over at Knots.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
No, we have this exact conversation every few months. It might have been a year since the last one.
Try plugging in "Norm," or just try "master carpenter" again. Gotta love Prospero.
we have this exact conversation every few months
Better than every few weeks, as in most cases, I guess.
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
I don't know about the Prospero search function, but it kind of sucks to name a lousy search Function after the wizard in "The Tempest"... perhaps Shakespear's most wonderful and mysterious and down to earth play.
That's MISTER loser, to you, buddy !
Life doesn't often leave a very easy trail to follow.
Hows bout Mister Master Loser?
J. D. Reynolds
Home Improvements
Pp, Qq
Luka inc. MMLKinda has a ring to it, dunnit ?;o)
Life doesn't often leave a very easy trail to follow.
That does have a certain cache....maybe you should go with MmL, though, looks more professional-like....
Actually I don't like the L part at all. You should go with Luka V.D., MmME. (Mister master Most Everything)
For a while my crew called me Triple Em Cee after a homeowner called me a master carpenter (at age 25...boy where they mistaken!) Mike Maines, Master.....
People get all emotionaly about "Master Carpenter" like it's a vaulted status thing only a select few can achieve.
I think it should be like other trades. Enough years of doing enough different things that you can build a house from the dirt up, and enough business sense to make a living doing it. You don't have to be the best at either.
Now, a MASTER Master Carpenter...that person would have to be good.
I've never seen or heard of a test that formally designated someone a Master Carpenter. Maybe we should start one?
I have a formal "Journeyman's" certificate issued from when I graduated out of the Detroit Joint Apprentice School. It was a formal union program that gave us a thorough education in all carpentry covered under the union contract. Included was concrete formwork, resilient tile, welding (on underwater pilings and stuff), framing, finish work, accoustical ceilings, drywall, etc.
I have the certificate somewhere...LOL!
Bob's next test date: 12/10/07
Does'nt MASTER mean, knowing more and more about less and less?
just my .02 cents
DAVE
Does'nt MASTER mean, knowing more and more about less and less?
College degrees:
BS = Bull S#!@@
MS = More S#!@@
PHD = Piled Higher & Deeper
We call a PHD a 'Plumbing and Heating Diploma'
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I wouldn't let the PHDs I've worked with near either of those trades.
Got my General Carpenter license in Ontario over 20 years ago. Was required to submit proof of 3 years apprenticeship and had to write a few exams at the local office.
When you were TGOttawa that was a licence!
Have a good day eh
Cliffy
Norm never gave himself that title(master carpenter). He explained in an interview once that Russell Moresh, the producer of Yankee Woodworker and This Old house, just started using it to introduce him. Norm actually seamed a bit embarrassed by the title.
I agree with Svenny that Norm is the real deal but no more so then a number of people on this forum.
Doug
I agree with Svenny that Norm is the real deal but no more so then a number of people on this forum.
I agree, there are number of BTimers, that when you see there work or hear their advice, you can't help but lean back in your chair and say, man I hope I get there someday!
For all you guys out there what ever you might be called, thanks for sharing. View Image View Image
"I agree with Svenny that Norm is the real deal but no more so then a number of people on this forum."For Norm it was being in the right place at the right time. He was working on Morash's house and "This Old House" was in the concept stages. Morash asked Norm if he would try out for the part and the rest is history. I think you hit the nail on the head. Probably a fair number of folks on this forum could do what Norm does or surpass it. What Norm has is image and marketability. His stature, demeanor and mannerisms along with his talent are the complete image of the old world carpenter in a modern world. I think people that watch the show want to identify him with those qualities.
Hazlet is right. There use to be a "master" union card in the U.S., but it was eliminated about a century ago because it was thought to keep union journeyman carpenters from working. All of the new generation journeymen know this because we have all been required to study “labor history” as part of a program leading to an associate’s degree in addition to a journeyman certificate. Imagine going through the standard four-year-apprenticeship for union carpenters and then being told by a contractor: “Ah, sorry son. There’s not enough work right now . . . we’re only hiring “master” carpenters at this time.”
As Hazlet mentioned, a master carpenter held a position very similar to a contractor today. Does that mean that any contractor could be considered a master carpenter? I don’t think so. The problem today is that anyone with pickup truck and level in their gun rack can hire a couple of illegal immigrants and call themselves a “contractor.” Back when master carpenters really existed, they had to actually meet higher standards of knowledge, experience, and workmanship than the journeyman. Unfortunately, today journeymen don’t always go through a full four-year-apprenticeship. When work is plentiful, a lot of them get away with simply buying their cards.
In the case of Norm Abram, ‘he received the title “master carpenter” from “others” who bestowed it upon him,’ according to the This Old House book “Ask Norm.” It is not a union designation, nor would that be possible in this day and age. Who those “others” that bestow upon him this title are, Norm does not say. Obviously “This Old House” gives him that label. Out of the millions of letters a TV personality like that receives, it wouldn’t surprise me if viewers have referred to him as a master carpenter as well. Norm also has a humble disposition, which makes it easy for people to say nice things about him. Norm has also acquired an enormous amount of experience through “This Old House,” and “The New Yankee Workshop.” He definitely has more experience as a TV carpenter than anyone else – that’s for sure.
I kind of like the idea of coming up with our own criteria. Mike Maines definition is the one I’ve liked the most so far in this thread, except I would change “you don't have to be the best at either,” to “better at it than the average journeyman.” After all, the whole idea of “mastering” something is pretty much just that.
My vote:
Enough years of doing enough different things that you can build a house from the dirt up, and enough business sense to make a living doing it better than the average journeyman.
-T
I'm sure Normy has some pretty useful skills and would be a nice hand to have around but I'm a little uncomfortable with giving him the "title" since he does'nt work in the trade.
he gave up the trade to become a TV personallity
to me its like calling William Shatner an astronaut
fare enough enough, but you can hardly say that Norm is an actor. View Image View Image
to me its like calling William Shatner an astronaut
He was just playing that capt. on Star Trek, everybody knows that Bill is a lawyer somewhere in Boston!
Doug
As Ron Budgell said, in Canada we still have a standardised apprenticehip system....you can either do a formal apprenticeship, or get the equivalent experience and have two journeymen vouch for you, and write the exam to certify as a journeyman (same process for cabinetmaker or carpenter). The exam is the same all across the country, and if you get 70% on the exam, you get a Red Seal on your provincial ticket which gives you interprovincial status. I have one provincial ticket in industrial woodworking (didn't have the RedSeal program at the time), and another with a Red Seal in cabinetmaking. Will get my carpentry ticket sometime when I have the time. There is a slo a Blue Seal program getting under way, which adds another seal in recognition of meeting certian requirements in business education for people that already have the Red Seal.
The European system has masters, which add a year or two of business education so you can be a 'master of men', or employer of journeymen.
There is group in Canada which is looking at instituting a formal post-journeyman master program in cabinetmaking; I haven't heard anything similar for carpentry. We have a large number of European trained journeyment in this country, and that's where the impetus is coming from.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Edited 3/10/2008 11:08 pm ET by Adrian
I guess i have to say this because its pretty rare to be one as a real job, I was working on a crab boat as a deckhand and you guessed it i was the baiter, i worked very hard to make master baiter,,, but never really did although the crew complemented me by saying i was a jerk on?? or something. Its not an easy job either.
You win... hands down. Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
LOL that took me a minute opps theres another one
I always get the same job as you when I go fishing... good thing I practiced a lot when I young... like riding a bicycle... Winterlude, Winterlude, my little daisy,
Winterlude by the telephone wire,
Winterlude, it's makin' me lazy,
Come on, sit by the logs in the fire.
The moonlight reflects from the window
Where the snowflakes, they cover the sand.
Come out tonight, ev'rything will be tight,
Winterlude, this dude thinks you're grand.
You know, I always got that job, too.Only I thought they kept calling me, mister baiter. Out of respect, for how well I did the job.
Life doesn't often leave a very easy trail to follow.
Edited 3/13/2008 12:29 am by Luka
I recall reading an explanation of Norm Abram's title "Master Carpenter" in which it was explained that the producer gave him that title for purposes of adding credibility.
DougU has it the way I heard it. Norm had the title slapped on him.
I would think it would be hard to bestow the title now days because everyone likes to specialize. Back in the day a true carpenter started at the ground and stayed until completion. Including all the trim and shingles, which used to be considered trim work.
Pop, lock, and drop it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5K8sofXj5E
I don't think that experience alone can grand father any one into journey man status (since the 70's). I think to be able to call oneself a carpenter in the juristiction that one lives requires certificate of qualification. You can challenge the red seal exam with hours. Apprentices in Ontario that do all 3 levels of apprenticeship then successfully pass their exam (70% or higher) receive a Certificate of Apprenticeship and a Certificate of Qulification.
Have a good day
Yeah. Out here in Saskatchewan, no more grandfathering. However, anyone can call themselves a carpenter.
There are only four trades here where you HAVE to be a journeyman. Plumber, electrician, refrigeration and sheet metal.
I guess any one here (Ontario) can call themselves a carpenter but it doesn't mean squat if they don't have the C of Q to back it up. Although there are a lot of people that are very good that don't have the C of Q and probably don't worry about having it. Back when I left my government job to pursue self employment as a carpenter I was and still am clear about calling myself a carpenter and never refering to myself as a contractor.
Have a good day
Cliffy
Anyone here can call themselves a carpenter or cabinetmaker....no qualification needed to work in the trade, although the carpenters union would like to see that changed. Plumber and electrician were always compulsory certification trades here(you have to have the qualification to work), and now the plumbers have got it through that noone except a qualified plumber can pull a permit for plumbing work (and all plumbing work is now required to have a permit). The carpenters would like to see the same thing, but I don't think they'll get it.
The union in Ontario was bad about grandfathering, at least when I was coming up. I worked with one guy who was hired by a company with a contract with a big utility...the contract required journeymen only on the jobsite. He was hired in, taken to the hall and inducted as a fourth year apprentice; next day they made him a journeyman, he showed me his card. He'd never worked in the trade before. The local here is a lot more serious, and they are good about trying to get all their people without the qualifications upgraded....they run Red Seal exam prep courses, and they are cracking down on apprentices who stall themsleves at third or fourth year apprentice so in theory they would get more hours than if they were higher paid journeymen (this is happening in the other trades as well). Although right now, anyone that wants it is in Alberta making big money, so worka vailability isn't as big an issue it seems.
The vast majority of the really good tradesmen I've worked with all went through one of the routes to qualification, and the guys I teach with now are all very good and very serious..... I'd say everyone of them is proud of what they went through to get their qualification, and proud to call themselves a carpenter, cabinetmaker, plumber, or whatever. My boss has I think five interprovincial qualifications....that's a hell of an acheivement.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
I may have confused things with that post....the journeyman card the union gave my buddy was a union certification, not a provincial certificate of qualification. I don't kow if the union still has those qualifications, I'm not a member and I don't hear about them anymore. The UBC local here is working to get all their people the provincial/interprovincial certificate of qualification, which has some pretty rigid conditions you have to meet (for instance if you are not a registered apprentice, you have to prove the number of hours you have before you can apply to write the exam....right now in cabinetmaking, they are looking for 10-12,000 hours, carpentry is probably around the same).
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Your right, there are lots of guys who refer to themselves as carpenters, doesn't mean they are! That is one of the reasons I never call myself a contractor, if people ask I say a certified carpenter. Although I have to also point out that I have come across a few certified carpenters that are not very knowledgeable and non certified guys who really know their stuff.
I work three days a week at the local college and one of my co-workers is the former president of the brotherhood here. He tells me that there is a movement on now for the first time in years to get the carpentry trade certified. I'll have to stay tuned.
Have a good day.
Are you anywhere near Marion Bridge or did I ask you that before?
CLiffy
I think you did ask me before....your wife has people there, something like that? Anyway, yeah, I'm five minutes downriver from Marion Bridge. The guy that wrote 'Out on the Mira', if you know it, livs across the road.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
It's all coming back to me now. My brother's wife is from near there. They are down there right now. They both teach high school and it is March break here. (do you know any MacMullins?) He is telling me how great it is down there whenever I see him. He lives a few hours away from me. It would not surprise me if they work for a few more years then go into semi retirement with a B & B in your parts. I hope to do a tour of the whole east coast with the wife and kids summer of 09.
Have a good day
Cliffy
I know one MacMullen with connections to the Marion Bridge MacMullens, a former student...there's at least two branches, and I don't think there is any love lost. Can't remember the details.
Cape Breton is a beautiful place; worth a visit.
Cabinetmaker/college woodworking instructor. Cape Breton, Nova Scotia.
Could be one of the branches. I seem to remember a story about some brawl at a family wedding! I don't recall the details but I think it was a funny story.
Have a good day
Cliffy
I'm going to jump in here without reading through the whole thread.
In this culture, I think it's presumptuous to consider anyone a master since we just don't have that tradition, like they do in the Orient or in Old Europe.
I call myself a House Wright, since I am capable of designing and building any part of a house, from foundation to finish including all mechanicals (and often do). But learning and improving "mastery" of each phase of building never stops.
My first career was as an auto mechanic. I went to trade school in Detroit and then took the newly-created NIASE certification tests and passed them all, making me one of the first and youngest "certified master mechanics". Then I got licensed in Michigan as a "Master Mechanic" even though I had hardly any experience in the field. I always thought it was a joke.
I got into the building trade the same way I did for mechanics - by taking a course. It was only a 3-week crash course in everything from design to layout, foundations to framing, siding to roofing, electrical to plumbing - with an emphasis on energy efficiency.
I was fortunate to have as my teacher the first woman to become a Journeyman Carpenter in the Chicago union and the author of the first carpentry manual for women (Against the Grain) which was one of our school textbooks. She was good, and I learned enough in those three weeks (and a lot of studying before I went) to go right from there to supervise the construction of two new prototype superinsulated homes for a community land trust in the hollers of Tennessee. And then off to inner city Boston to supervise a gut rehab of a duplex for a family shelter.
Two years later, I was hired as a field supervisor for a federally funded home-ownership program in which I had one year to build 9 new homes with 9 young families, working three nights and weekends. Their labor was their sweat equity and the finish carpenter congratulated us on how level, square and plumb the houses were.
Now I'm at the point of wanting to share what I've learned and I do that teaching a variety of courses at Yestermorrow Design/Build School and by participating in forums like this one.
But Master Carpenter I don't pretend to be. And I've yet to meet one.
Edited 3/15/2008 11:20 pm ET by Riversong
I can only tell you guys about the masters degree in Germany, my home country. To get the masters degree a ticketed journey man has to go back to school to learn about running a business and training people. He learns from tax laws to safety regulations to labor relations. He needs to work as a journey man for a certain number of years. On average before you go to masters school you have to work in the field for 3-5 years.
Without a masters degree you were not allowed to open a business in Germany until about 8 years ago. Since then, there are so many young businesses that went tits up, no wonder: every Joe-blow could open their business without having knowledge in tax laws etc..Martin
How different then here in this state (Ore.). Anyone can open the business of being a builder without any knowledge of the trades, just a knowledge of business law as it applies to the construction industry. Result is pretty much the same though.
They can't get your Goat if you don't tell them where it is hidden.
just a knowledge of business law as it applies to the construction industry.
And in some places you dont even need that!
Doug
I actually DID know a master carpenter-my late uncle Jack.
Got his journeyman papers in '37 in Winnipeg, did framing & finish work & was in the RCAF for the war.
Went to Fargo for IA teacher training, in '49, taught in 'peg till '55, moved to LA and taught cabinet making there until late '70s.
He was amazing.
"Measure it up. Good. Did you double-check the measurement? Wood costs money! OK, cut it. Get it done! Nice cut, great join - that's great work".
His work was exquisite. I have a pair of living room lamps he turned, and I'm restoring them for use in my house - his last legacy to his brother (my dad).
Not too many around, but yes, there are master carpenters out there.
Quality repairs for your home.
AaronR Construction
Vancouver, Canada
wow..be sweet to have an uncle like that. View Image View Image
i thought my dad was a Master carpenter, He was a carpenters mate in the Seabees, marines in WW2 worked his whole life as a carpenter he did all the trim work when they built a church in our town, when we framed a hip roof he just sent up all the hip and jack rafters without me calling any measurements, He could lay out octagon roofs the first time with the steel square, Want a camper for your truck before they made them, ok he just built one, Need cabinets, ok he just built them, Someone calls for a form job, Ok, Build an addition ok we are going to lay the blocks, One of the reasons im a roofer to is cause he made me do the roofs, now im 54 and still cant do the things he did, But he did say things change every day and ones always learning.
Hey guys, I just thought of another example of someone with a "master carpenter" title. Fine Homebuilding's Tom Law. I wonder: How did he get his title? Is it some kind of FHB advertising like that of TOH?-T
'he did say things change every day and ones always learning.'
Now that is a useful bit of wisdom to have handed down to you.
My state, Maine, doesn't license carpenters yet (to my knowledge) but here's a link to the State's definition of Master Electrician.
http://maine.gov/pfr/professionallicensing/professions/electricians/master.htm
A journeyman was, at least to my learning, historically a carpenter who had passed the guilds tests of competency -from the UK perspective-
My understanding is that a "master carpenter" was simply a person who was authorized to hire an apprentice, which translates in many principalities to a person who has the financial wherewithall to rent and equip a woodworking shop.
as far as I know it's an antiquated usage, at least in N america
I'd love to see some UK unionists chime in on what the remnants of the guild system decree on this issue.
I've see the masterworks/submissions of a UK journeyman painter (decorator) and I daresay that I've NEVER met a n. Am. trained painter who could pull such marvellous faux-wood grain samples out of their back pocket.
But, different trades have different standards, and standards change, so even the standars in the UK of 20 years ago may not be relevant now.
Just my two bits.
As far as I know, if you can afford to hire a carpenter, even if you never cut a board, you become a defacto "master carpenter", as bizarre as that is.
Eric