Maybe I should just buy more sweaters
Hi folks;
I received a bit of a sticker-shock today when I got some bids back about updating my heating/cooling system for my house.
I’m remodeling a 100+ year old brick church into a single family residence. This is my first home, and first remodel, so I expect to learn a lot (the hard and easy way). The building is broken up into two floors, with a master bed/bath stacked on a guest bed bath in one section, and the remaining space is the sanctuary, with 31ft interior ceilings and a bit of a loft area. All told we’ll have around 3,000 finished square feet.
I got a bid for a geothermal system, which they divided into two units (bedrooms & loft – 4 ton main sanctuary – 3 ton). With installation and the vertical closed loop I’m looking at $32k. It’s a reputable firm, and I know the owner – he’s a stand up guy. I just can’t conceive of ever having this system “pay for itself” unless we’re in the place a really long time. We’d have to save $266 a month, every month for 10 years, to pay it off. Maybe we could save that in the winter, but that’s 4 months at best. We wouldn’t come close to that savings for the rest of the year.
We’re in central Illinois, so we do see some extreme days (winter and summer) but this is just a huge amount of money up front. You have no idea how badly I’d like to cut off our natural gas costs and do something relatively “green” and cheap to maintain. But $32k? Would we be likely to recoup that cost?
So I’m a little depressed this fine Friday evening. I love this project, and I love saying I live in a church, but I’m pretty stumped as to how to move forward on the heating-A/C issue.
Right now the place has no A/C and is heated by a pair of oversized 90% efficient furnaces. We’ll be insulating the walls of the bedroom stack and have already sprayed 4+ inches of icynene under the roof sheathing. The sanctuary will have some of its brick exposed and some framed/insulated walls in places. Last winter we had no ceiling insulation and were paying $250+ a month just to run one furnace and heat the bedrooms.
I’m going to look into subsidies or government programs that might offset costs, but barring that, I think I need to consider less “green” solutions.
This will be a forced air system (unfortunately), so any suggestions that cover heating/cooling and don’t break the bank to do it?
eyepulp
Replies
You already have the furnaces.
I would look at adding air to air heatpumps with gas backup.
Bill;
The furnaces we have are considerably oversized for the task at hand. As I understand it that means we burn a lot more gas in order for them to cycle up and do their job. I'd like to sell them, if that's even possible, and get a properly sized system.--------------------------
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Even buying a new furnaces with a heatpump they would be a small percentage of the cost of the geothermal.
Hey Bill;
With this sort of pricing, that's what I'll get bid next. With the internal partition changes, I'll need new ductwork regardless, but I've got to imagine there are more affordable methods to heat and cool the place.I still need to learn about air/air heat pumps. My understanding is they still need a standard furnace to support them?--------------------------
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What they need is somekind of backup heat.As the OAT drops there is some point where they can't keep up with the heating demands of the house.Depending on the cost of electricity vs other fuel (NG, oil, or propane) then that backup might be resistive heat.Also depends on the climate. In warmer climates it rarely reaches those colder temps so installation cost of the backup is more important than operating cost.
Someone will probably flame me for this, but oversizing furnaces probably doesn't have nearly the drawbacks that oversizing AC does....warm is warm, whether done fast or slow (unless you're T-stat is in a really bad location)
Do the best job retrofitting insulation you can....& hang tight until until you have to switch to coal ;-)
I was thinking the same thing. Spend the money on insulation and weatherizing.
where in central Illinois?
Right outside of bloomington, in Towanda.--------------------------
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Proper insulation, good sealing, and a well designed forced air system will be your best bang for the buck. Next step beyond that would be a boiler and some radiant (some floor, some radiator).
Geothermal sure is neat, but it ain't cheap.
You could look at wood pellets, corn, masonry heaters, or plaing old wood burners as cost saving supplemental sources of heat. Corn furnaces are a premium lately, but my guess is that you have access to cheap corn in your area.
Adventures in Home Building
An online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
With 31 foot ceilings, is forced air really the best bang for the buck? I'd have thought that radiant would work better in that application.
Yes, I think so. . .with properly placed high returns and a reversible ceiling fan or two. . . .
Radiant would work better - or a mix of radiant and FA.
You know, I want to re-state something. Depending upon access to underside of the sanctuary floor - it could be a toss up btw radiant and FA.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
EyePulp,
Have the heating guy's done a Blower door test and heatloss calculations? That would be a good place to start. Many systems are way oversized 'cause contractors can charge you to cover their butts, and they would (in most cases), keep you warm with an oversized system. They don't pay your gas bill. GSHP's with backup heat for really cold days can save you too, you already own two furnaces.
Why not Radiant heat?
Garett
hey garrett;
We haven't had a blower test done, mainly because the building envelope is really loose right now - original single pane windows, exposed brick, etc.If you don't mind me asking, what's a GSHP? I'm assuming some sort of heat pump.As for radiant (which others asked about too), the floor of the sanctuary, which would be by far the biggest area of square footage, has the original inch thick wood flooring. It's beautiful, and still has nail holes from where the pews were. We'll be keeping that. Wood is a pretty lousy thermal mass as I understand it, compared to concrete, and as such you'd have to be heating it all the time. At least that's what I've concluded after reading a lot of threads here and talking to a fgew people. I'd love to be wrong about it though, as radiant seems like a much better strategy with high ceilings.I also like the Idea of the Pellet stoves, and corn would be relatively easy to get here.At the other end of the year, I'm still looking for a solution for cooling. The problem with radiant would be having to have two independent systems to cover heat and cold. Probably not too bad to get used to, but it would be more equipment to maintain.Is this the same as in other industries? You get the best tool for a job and you won't be sorry? Radiant for heat, something else (some sort of heat pump) for cooling?I appreciate everyone's thoughts. I'm sad I can't swing geothermal, but I'm interested in the other options out there.
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yes, wood is not as good of a "thermal mass" as concrete; but it "would" still work. The benefit of the thermal mass is temperture regulation, but a properly sized, piped, and controlled system should go a long way for making up for that.
If you want AC you're not tied to a traditional distribution system. You can go with a mini-split (Mr. Slim-type) or a high velocity (Unico-type).
Maybe you should look at a traditional HVAC system and then look at the radiant as the supplemental? Is there a corn or pellet "boiler" out there?
I want to re-state, insulation and sealing should come first. Oh, and one more thing. In your desire to leave some exposed brick. . . would it be possible to do it on a wall where the "out-side" of that wall could be insulated?
What I am thinking about is if you want an interior side of a wall to have the exposed brick, that you do it in an area where if you covered the outside of that wall with insulation. I am picturing something that would look like a small bumpout on the outside - perhaps still contained under the soffit/eave.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Sorry, Ground Source Heat Pump. As others have said(I agree) with the really high ceilings radiant floor or baseboard would be my starting point for the sanctuary area. Tightening up the envelope and insulating are the first priority. If you size any system to heat it the way it is then seal your envelope, the new system will be oversized.Another thought on your insulation... Infra Red... Check with local contractors and utilities about getting a thermal scan done. They can be very informative. They can locate problem areas so you can concentrate on them first.Garett
mass has nothing to do with it. Concrete is a better CONDUCTOR than wood, and as such will operate at lower water temperatures.In your case, this is iffy (for radiant). On the one hand, you have a huge cathedral space (I assume) in which the reduced air stratification of radiant would be a big blessing.On the other, that also means you probably have a heck of a heat load depending on what you are doing with the walls/windows etc. Through a wood floor this may or may not be a problem, may or may not mean you need to use high water temperatures.. may or may not reduce the benefit significantly.If the envelope is "sane" though, it could be a good choice for sure. If it's not.. that should be your first focus.As for geo, how much are you spending a month? If the 3 to 1 ratio touted by geo people holds, cut your heating bill by 66%, convert the last 33% to an equivalent amount of electricity, and figure out your payback.-------------------------------------
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This is some good information guys. I always get excited thinking about radiant or geo, simply because they aren't traditional and have these unique benefits. I didn't buy a church to have a "normal" house, so I'd love to use the best solution (sometimes the odder the better) to solve the heat/cooling problems.It occurred to me today that I'll only be worrying about heating 3-4 month out of the year. This means that I can trade some efficiencies for aesthetics in places (i.e. exposed brick), and not be paying a price except 1/3 of the year. That makes it a lot easier to swallow and makes me worry less about having the perfect system. I just need to make some wise choices with regards to what we're installing/replacing.Radiant has me very interested. I've wondered about possibly ding an insulated framed kneewall about 4ft up the outer walls, and running radiant through that as well as the floor below. This would essentially surround you in the radiant heat. I know I'd need to make sure the heat goes into the house rather than leeches out through the brick, but I imagine there are decent reflective materials to help do this.Above 4ft would be expose brick (cold but pretty as it is).Any thoughts?--------------------------
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You need to look at different heating systems. Any kind of hot air system for 31 ft ceilings will have high running costs and "feel" poor. Its is the cheapest day one install and this is why its used so often. Someone else is paying to run it!
There is not much else to use for cooling than an "air" system, so that your stuck with.
Take your money and spent on insulation as much as you can.
In floor radiant heat is by far the best for high ceiling as no air currants are caused by it. This can be electric or hot water, lots of labor for the install but the simple part you can do.