Had a homeowner call me today. We just finished drywalling his 1500 sqft basement and are ready to mud on monday. He tells me he has decided to “change” one of his 90deg corners to a 45deg. “This should only put you back 1/2 day” he says.
I begin to explain to him why it will put me back much further. I now have to remove cut drywall, disconnect his central vac., reframe the corner, redrywall, and wait for him to rewire. I explain to him this will run him about $300. He blows up and tells me “I dont make that much in a day” and if I want that much “maybe you should just pack up your tools and go”. How condescending, one day hes praising my work then i’m a thief.
Next he starts telling me how he will get things just as he wants them, I agree but try to calmly explain that its not free.
I told him we’d talk about it on monday(since i’m not exactly sure which corner hes talking about), I want to be sure I actually didnt overprice the change.
Anybody ever have this happen to you? I dont think my change order price was too much considering I now have to start from scratch in this corner.
Edited 12/12/2004 10:47 pm ET by MSA1
Replies
Ouch!
You better go read the book entitled "How to Win Friends and Influence People" before you talk with this guy again.
I'm not the best person to advise you on remodeling relations with homeowners. My first thoughts are always the thing I shouldn't do or say.
Sorry I don't have any advice....but read that book...something will come to you.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
I don't know if it's the holidays or what......but it seems that I've run into a lot of irritable customers lately. We're talking right from the get go........before I even open my trap. I remember this old guy I worked with for a while saying....."John, often thy wisest word, is thy unspoken word". I try to keep that in mind...but I occasionally slip =8-)
jocobe
I just couldnt believe the way he blew up. He actually said the same thing about the plumber. The plumber charged about 500 to install a custom shower pan and sweat in the faucet. I thought this was a reasonable price but not the homeowner. Once again "I dont make that much in one day".
I didnt jerk this guys chain, i'll do whatever a HO wants (within reason) but they have to realize rebuilding an entire corner will take some time and time aint free.
Sounds to me that this guy is just pi$$ed off that he makes a crappy wage. I bet it costs his boss that much per day to have him. You have ALOT of hidden costs, all the $ does not go straight in your pocket. Like non-billable hours, etc., etc.
If you change your price it should only be higher now. Consider it the "pain in the a$$" charge. Your experience is the exact reason that I am not going to be in the remodeling business my whole life. That guy is just a dick and you should definitely up your price on monday or pack your tools and let him get it done other (unless you have a binding contract).
The bummer is that this guy is not the only one. All of the customers these days have the "home depot" mentality....
"oh, I know I could go to home depot and get the stuff to do this but I just don't have the time. So I'll let you do it and I'm sure it won't take too long. And I'm sure it won't be too expensive either"
Yea, I had a really, really long day.
Rob Kress
Actually this guy is an old aquaintence(played in a band 6 years ago) so the formalities are pretty loose on this one. Like I said hes offered to pay me for the rock "and just mud it myself"............I do hate mudding...........sounds tempting......got alot going on right now.
You need to keep professional composure and stick to what you said . The out come doesnt matter as long as you are the honest and straight guy up front. If you dont finish it , he will find out the truth and hopefully admire you . Mike had exellent points but your character is on display here. Looks good so far.
Tim Mooney
msa... run an analysis a couple ways.. you and i both know it's a $300 - $400 change order.. but the homeowner doesn't..
what did you get for the job? how much per sheet ? how much per sf ? find a number that justifies your CO..
or .. have him sign a T&M change order..
or ... tell him no change.. no charge
it's his choice.. you contracted for the job with certain specs. the scope has changed.. you are about to undo work that has been completed...
so it costs twice as much.. once to undo it , then again to redo it.. plus the delays of waiting for the electrician ( the homeowner )..
tell him only in a face -to -face meeting and have him lay out what he wants changed..
don't pussyfoot around .. be polite.. but don't nickel/dime it... it's either so much for materials ( not at cost either .. at cost plus any delays, plus overhead ) ie : it's not $6 for a board .. it's $50 for the board unless it's sitting right there
and so much for labor.. in increments of half days...
don't let it get into "satisfaction of the customer".. that's how houses get 5 coats of paint and only pay for two
be fair , but firm.. and don't forget that being fair means being fair to your family as well as his
Yeah, face to face is a must here. I tried explaining most of what you wrote in your post and he just didnt see it that way. I dont blow up at people but your right I have to consider my family too.
Yeah, because we don't wear suits, we can't charge more than the suit makes in a day, or per hour. Where these folk work, they rarely see the real costs involved when they 'change their minds'. Their paycheque is the same week-in week-out. 'What consequences?'
Looks like you're handling it well so far. Dialogue, polite and calm, taking a look at it before finalizing your change order. Keeping emotions under rein is tough sometimes.
MSA1 - "Had a homeowner call me today. We just finished drywalling his 1500 sqft basement and are ready to mud on monday. He tells me he has decided to "change" one of his 90deg corners to a 45deg. "This should only put you back 1/2 day" he says.
I begin to explain to him why it will put me back much further. I now have to remove cut drywall, disconnect his central vac., reframe the corner, redrywall, and wait for him to rewire. I explain to him this will run him about $300."
Half a day? I don't know what the problem he has with $300 dollars is then. He was the one who said half a day. And on average I often think of a day as $680 for just labor so what's his problem? Tell him you should be charging him $340.
"He blows up and tells me "I dont make that much in a day" He obvioulsy doesn't understand the difference between wages and a billing rate for a business. He has no concept or understanding of the costs of doing business beyond wages. I don't know what you markup or overhead is but you might point out to him that of that $300 only lets say $120 of it ends up in your poscket as wages and then of that $120 uncle sam then takes his cut. The other $180 goes towards company expenses such as:
and last but not least
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Edited 12/13/2004 12:13 am ET by Jerrald Hayes
I hate when it gets spelled out like that. Its depressing
thanks for once again reminding me how I need to charge more
this is a reminder I need often
Well you are certainly very welcome but it's not really or not just about "charging more". It really about charging the correct rate and understanding instinctually why it's correct. When the understanding comes (in spite of the fact that I learned about 15 years ago just what the correct rate was it took 10 years for me to really understand it so it was ingrained in my thinking) you don't really ever think about it and it becomes second nature, instinctual. I think what happens a lot of the time, at least I think it happened with me in the past, was I was astounded and surprised by the rates I was charging and perhaps subconsciously even doubted their validity. I think people could pick up on that doubt and then take advantage of that and start to negotiate with you on price. That never seems to happen anymore to me (thank God).
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I realize it is not just to charge more on basic principal, but that as your first post points out charge enough to cover costs - sometimes when I am trying to do quick in head pricing for a small repair type item, I slip into the labor and materials mindset
need to occasionally remind me of all the other time and expenses
once again - good post - stuff I know but good to keep refreshed
Jarrald said:
I think what happens a lot of the time, at least I think it happened with me in the past, was I was astounded and surprised by the rates I was charging and perhaps subconsciously even doubted their validity. I think people could pick up on that doubt and then take advantage of that and start to negotiate with you on price. That never seems to happen anymore to me (thank God).
-----
In my industry we spend a lot of time convincing business owners to charge what they are worth not what they could personally afford. A lot of times we are selling a product which far out distances any ability on our own part to buy it.
You just have to get over this as Jarrald said. Ask the fair price for your product and stick with it.
By the way, I ask for changes and expect to pay. We are going to cut a wall down 1 foot and it is NOT going to be fun or pretty. But the design is worth more to me and I will pay.... and I know I'm the one who OK'd the original height when I should not have done so. I pay by the hour. To the builder it is "just another day's work." We don't argue. We discuss and decide. We also try to get the plans right the first time and avoid most change orders. THAT is why I need that 3 unit X 7-foot french door set!
.Judy
First was Doug ,But I was lucky. My cup was almost empty.
Then %#@&* was you that make me spill my "fresh" cup of coffee allover with this UNHUMAN list.
Take it EZ J. Keep this things "secret"
YCF
Excellent job. It sounds like you stuck to your guns, and you were professional about it. Who knows, by the time you finish mudding he may have found a new respect for you. You may just decide to do the trim. Its not uncommon for the manipulative type to test your boundaries like kids do, but you need to stick to them so you dont get walked on.
I would have told you the same thing if you had to walk, but if you walk you have to feel confident in your decision because your inner monologue will beat you up, and you may be the guy that folds.
You forgot coffee.
Baseboard been VERRRY good to me
more than once...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
It's a little late now, but probably the first (and only) thing you did wrong was to guestimate a price withjout seeing the proble.
I have a buddy who does commercial work, and my side is residential. We help each other frequently when one is slow or the other is swamped. He does a lot of work for a bank. They had another contraftor make a mod to a teller counter (actually built a new 8 ft section) and it didn't come out right, mostly due to a miscommunication on the banks part, and partially due to chitty work. Anyway, we get called in to fix the problem, which will require rebvuilding the counter. So far, so good. But the branch manager announces that it shouldn't cost more than $xxx and here's how it can be done ... after all, he has a good set of Ryobi tools at home and he does some work around the house (I almost gagged when he said that). Then it got worse when they told us how much they paid the other contractor for the counter, and we see the real hack job. I'm ready to walk, but my buddy starts begging for help cuz he can't do it himself, and he really wants to be help his biggest customer. Part of his problem is that he tends to bid low, and has no provision for partial invoices ... he doesn't see any money until the job is done AND accepted by the local branch manager.
All I know, I learned from Luka.
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:
I told him we'd talk about it on monday(since i'm not exactly sure which corner hes talking about), I want to be sure I actually didnt overprice the change.
Be careful. If you come in lower on the price, now, you may very well set up a situation that will cost you time and money in the end.
You: Price
Customer: Complain
You: Lower Price
Customer (thinks): Hmm, every time he gives me a price if I complain he'll lower it.
You: Lose
-Mark
Have you got a job lined up in the queue after this one? Will this work generate word of mouth sales? I always try to do some horse trading at this point.
I tell my friend the nurse she doesn't make $300 a day but I can't stay in the hospital a day for $15 an hour @ 8 hours.
The client doesn't make that much in a day? Well, you should suggest that he quit his job, become a contractor and be rich like you!
Great one liner...
- Rob
Bummer of a client. I'm both a DIY and client (I know my limits) and hear stories of guys like yours from contractors all the time. I'm not sure how you set your tone with clients early on, but out here (NorCal) I haven't met a single one during the interview phase that doesn't make some comment about "the potential cost of change orders" in their initial pitch. Of course, there are some people that have deep pockets and are indecisive. Sounds like you found the later without the former.
The sad part, guys like this will tell everyone they know that YOU messed up or over-charged him even if you don't do either. Get the job done to the best of your ability, charge him what you need to ($300 sounds very reasonable) and get out of this job! If he refers you any business in the future - think twice about taking it.
Good contractors in our area have so much work, they are fussy and expensive. The last thing I need is someone "packing his tools up" in the middle of my job. If he's that much trouble, maybe you should just walk. I wish him a lotta luck finding someone to finish your work at this time of year for less.
Happy Holidays - BG
Jerrald, I thank you as well and I hope you dont mind if I use that list to give some people I work for.
If you look at this from a psychological perspective, I see a few issues. First of all I have found that most jobs take 3 times the amount of time to complete then the average HO assumes. I also feel a job takes about 2x the amount of time to complete then a GC expects or claims, cause its their profit.
I changed my tune at this post as I read through and saw that he was a friend. Its hard to read. My first impression of a client like this would be that they are 'manipulative' which is very common. They love your work, but they dont want to pay, so they say that you are great just enough to keep you from 'picking up your tools' then they bitch about your rate the whole time, or dispute the bill, or say that it is taking to long.(see first paragraph) This leads you to question your work, self, and rate. By pushing you down and making you feel bad, they can manipulate you into bending. Stick to your guns! This is called 'boundaries'. You have to decide where your boundaries are, then be firm with them. Its just like a tool learning curve though. You push, they push, you push back....at some point you find a sweetspot that you can live with, but everyones tolerance is different, and it will take a few toxic clients to define what you think you can handle.
In order to understand what is toxic, you have to understand normal... I hope you can look back and 'see' what a great or even good client was like, but I think that there are some contractors that always have crappy clients because they give their work away and they never understand that the grief isnt needed.
This being said, its hard when you deal with a friend or acquaintance. I have some that I would drop everything and go work for for less money, and some that I have learned to be 'really busy' when they call... its your own boundaries that will tell you when that is.
Its usually the people with the money that manipulate and are cheap. Thats how they keep their money. On the other hand you could have a client that just plain doesnt know how much it costs, again see paragraph one, and I usually try to explain this or slip it in if necessary. Or they can spend the next few weeks or months finding out that you WERE a good price... but dont expect them to come back and admit it.
Finally, you have to decide how much you can take, if you stay and work it out, make it because you can get more work from a reference in the future, if you have to eat some of it, its called a 'loss leader'. Its a loss, but it will create much more work down the road. If its not and you are going to have a horrible taste in your mouth, pick up those tools and walk, my guess is the client is bluffing and will ask what the heck you are doing.
The one thing my dad taught me was no matter what kind of a deal it is, always be willing to walk away.
-zen
Edited 12/13/2004 12:30 pm ET by zendo
I hope you'll tell us how this turned out. I was thinking about it all day.
Just exactly what does what he makes in a day have to do with what it costs you to do a job? Does he use the same logic with his brain surgeon? I'd love to know how he talks to domestic servants! Gerald and others have provided great information and reminders about how we all need to pay more attention to pricing.
I also love it when a homeowner decides how long it will take to do a job. I've never heard of one saying, "Gee...that's going to be really complicated and take a long time!"
We all fantasize about being able to say "Take this job and shove it!", but obviously we are all professionals about would never actually do it. Along with the others, I hope you stick to your guns in a logical and firm way. Give him an honest and reasonable price, and let him decide based on that, not on what HE wants to pay
Good luck! Keep us posted!
Al Mollitor, Sharon MA
If he does not like the $300.00 estimate tell him you will do it by the hour plus material. That way you get paid for your work and he might feel better about what he has to pay.
Thats a good tactic David. It's called alternative closings. Actually he has another....just leave it the way it is and save the entire $300!
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Alright, heres what happened. I went out to the job today and saw his change. It really wasnt that big a change so when he calls me I tell him $200. He tells me thats too much and i'm not working with him. He then tells me that when I agreed to fix any problems with framing(missed nailers and such) that should include his change.
I finally tell him that if he wants this done it will be $200 end of story. His reply "Fine i'll just save myself $2000 and mud it myself. Just pack up". "You really want to spend your next 2 months down here?" "Fine no hard feelings" I say and start to pack up. Not ten minutes later he calls back, "Okay $200". I swear if he wasnt an old friend I would've kept going but I utimately ended up getting the money and staying.
I do have other work to go to but I hate to leave a job half done. He has mentioned my coming back to do trim work, but I think i'll take a pass. He's a good guy but I dont need that kind of crap.
Good news. But let us know if he tries to short you $200 at the end.
You stuck to your (reasonable) guns, called his bluff, and found a win-win outcome. Nicely. Mixing 'money' and 'friends' can be so revealing of a man's true character. I agree with the others, this guy's gained some new respect for you.
MSA1,
I doubt very much if this customer has any new found respect for you.
1) You just lost----at a minimum---$100( by cutting your price from $300 to $200)
2)You haven't collected the $200 yet----so you STILL may be out the time spent on the work change
3) The $300 down to $200 is going to be in the back of your mind for the remainder of the job----either making you more and more resentfull------or equally likely---causing you to throw in "freebies" or extra details in an attempt not to pizz off the customer and lose the $200
4) on the bright side---you learned something. Next time don't give a price for a change over the phone------meet the guy in person, give him your price( I think $300 was too low BTW) and be prepared to point out ALL the things Jerrald mentioned to the customer right their on the spot.( Just give the price,explain WHY and don't fall into the trap of whiney self justification)
5) the moment the customer said he was gonna "save $2000 by mudding the job himself---it should have been all over. Shake hands, say " no hard feelings", pack up and leave.---------Never go back---even after the "customer "changes his mind---tell him " sorry, but when I tell you something costs $300---that's what it costs $300---and when I tell you I am going to do something-----I do it"
6) don't even think about doing any trim work for this guy----after all he is the guy you just gave at least $100 to
BTW----I do sympathize with you however. I have been in similar situations myself in the past. I would say 10-12 times in the last 20 years.
I will tell you that upon reflection---sometimes YEARS after the fact-----with ONE exception -----every one of those problems was ultimately my fault. with ONE exception I could have handled things differently with little cost in time or money to myself and collected all the money----If I had been more aware of what was REALLY going on at the time---and used different techniques in handling the homeowner.After all WE are the professionals----and in the end we are here for the money---we aren't doing this as a charity or a hobby.
After you lose money like this a number of times---you will learn to structure your business differently and handle things to solve these potential problems before they arise.
Very best wishes to you, Stephen
>> You just lost----at a minimum---$100 (by cutting your price from $300 to $200)That's only true if there was ever a chance that they guy would have paid $300.
Amazing stories. I have a suit type of job (though I don't actually wear a suit) and I don't make $300/day, but it wouldn't occur to me that that fact should necessarily dictate the wages of sheetrockers, doctors or fry cooks.The thing I always wonder is whether the customer in question is competent at *anything*? I'm... well very good at one thing that has nothing to do with sheetrock. Sort a world's leading expert in fact. What that has shown me is not that I'm some genius who by extension is good at everything, but that a lot goes into getting really good at something and if you want it done fast and well, you need to hire an expert.When I see a case where someone just completely doesn't value a competent person (suit or not), I assume that person is probably not truly competent at anything himself.It's not that I don't think I couldn't do an OKAY job sheetrocking, either (the walls I've done with my dad aren't art, but nobody notices except us), but it would take a lot longer. I don't make $300 per day, but it's way cheaper for me to higher someone at $300 for one day to do something I don't do well than to take the four days off from work it would take me to achieve the same task and and lower quality.The phrase "you're not working with me" reminds me of a hotel guest where I worked as student who wanted a service and said "I'll take care of you". I said no because the guy was a pushy lawyer from New York whom I disliked, but a co-worker said yes. Since the coworker was a family man who wanted to get home, though, I agreed to do it. For a half hour of effort and several miles of driving on my own time in my own car, he tipped me $2.36. Well, much to the chagrin of the hotel manager, I got his address off the guest ledger, priced out what a local cab company would have charged for the delivery, added on a $15 "postal billing surcharge" (aka a**hole tax) and sent him a cordial and professional bill for about $38. He sent me the full amount with a note that said "What the hell is a postal billing surcharge!". Wish I'd kept it.
Edited 12/14/2004 4:32 pm ET by tlambert
Sort a world's leading expert....
you have piqued my interest...how about a hint? not being nasty about anything, it just amazes me at all the expertise that hangs around here...
"there's enough for everyone"
Rule #1 - never work for friends or family.
After he called back and said "OK, $200", I would have said, "it's gone back up to $300, for the aggravation", and kept packing up the tools, and walked.
I have a guy who's trying to nickel and dime me on a boundary survey, gave him an estimated range of cost and he said it was too much and could I do the work for a firm price (which was the low number of the range). He's already wasted a couple hours of my time with e-mails, and I can only imagine this is a horror story waiting to happen. At this point, I won't take the job.
Alright...alright...calm down fellas.
Haz is hitting the nail on the head but even he is being a bit harsh.
MSA1 actually managed to create a win-win situation, then ruined it, when he discovered that the "job was easier" and offered to do it for $200. MSA1....that was your big mistake....you lowered your price, setting a precedent. Your client simply did what good negotiators do...he bitterly complained using the oldest trick in the book...he turned the tables on you and blamed you by saying "you're not working with me". Remember...you were working with him.....but you weren't working smart.
MSA1, you might hate this idea...but what if you had checked out the job, then phoned him up and complained to him...."oh my...it's actually gonna be WORSE than I thought....I really want to work with you here.....How much are you willing to pay...I want to make you happy and not let our frienship take a dive over this?!" How much do you think your friend would have offered?
The point is...that you were negotitating a touchy subject and you didn't have a number that he felt would be fair...after you did your onsite inspection.
There's a rule in negotiating....the first one that mentions a number loses. You first mentioned $300. Your "combatant" immediately dismissed your number, complaining that it was too high and imploring you to drop it. At that moment, you were already behind the 8-ball because you spoke first....and then you buried yourself deeper by not forcing him to name a number.
There is another rule in negotiating....if someone drops their price without first asking you to name the price that you want....then the rule is to again complain and ask for a concession. If they drop again....without forcing a counteroffer...then the rule is to complain and ask again for a break. This continues till the negotiator throws up his hands and then says "I can't go any lower...that's the lowest I can go"...at which time the other guy starts his "bracketing".
In this case, if I was your friend and I was practicing my negotiating skills, when you mentioned $200, I'd ask for more....whatever I could get. If you refused to budge, I'd then know that your top end was $200. I'd offer say...$150 and tell you ten reasons why that is a fair price. Everntually, you might drop another $10. I might go to 160, but that would force you to 180 and so on till the price is set at 170.
Now....the guys in here are telling you that you'd be cheating yourself, but I won't say that. In the grand scheme of things, $30 won't make or break you...but in this case it would buy a lot of goodwill. Your friend would feel like he got a break and you would have to admit that you dropped your price on your own free will...you'd basically be giving something away at cost...but you'd be much better prepared for the next request that your friend made of you.
Now...re-evaluate that entire sequence, but start it out at your "firm" $300, because "it's going to be a lot tougher than I originally thougt!". Your eventual price might have ended up somewhere at...say...$200 and your buddy would be getting a $200 price break from you...essentially getting it at half price! You'd be a hero!
Now..beware...some of the stubborn old mules in here will tell you to ignore the crazy old coot (me), but understand MSA1....when your in business, you are ALWAYS selling and in every sale there is a negotiation. The goal of negotiators is to get their price, and while doing so, let the other party save face. Let them get the credit...you get the cash.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue
You just confused the hell out of me, I know that you probably think that does not take to much! :)
When I give a price for something, its not the beginning of a negotiation process.
You got two choices, take it or leave it. Were not going to change any numbers, with the exception of me adding X to Y.
In this instance, and its easy for all of us to tell MSA1 what we would do, I think I would have walked, no way would I give him the satisfaction of getting me to lower my price. I also would not give a price over the phone, I've done it but I like to think I'm getting a bit wiser as time goes by.
Doug
Doug, I'm just trying to get MSA1 to understand that he gave a price over the phone and started into a scene that required some finesse. Once he knew he was in a situation that required some tact, he should have developed a strategy for handling it. Obviously he knew he was in a small bind because he made the call for help in here.
But...I also disagree with the hard line that you are playing. Negotiating and "getting deals" isn't necessarily a bad thing and there are an awful lot of Americans who think it is their God given right to dicker. Knowing and understanding the game can be helpful and pay huge dividends to those who embrace the process. Remember, MSA1 is in the middle of a situation and obviously he forgot to spell out the exact process about how "extras" are going to be charged and negotiated. If his written contract spelled out the exact hourly rate and the markup on materials and sub-contracts, then this negotiating session never would have happened. Once it became apparent that some negotiating had to be done, it was in MSA1's best interest to play the game to both get the dollars, and make the client feel like he won. The best negotiator's manage to do both. It's one of those skills that carpenters don't understand that are just as important as their carpentry...after all, it's a business and in business, negotiations are just a normal routine part of their job....just as hammering is part of a carpenter's job. The faster MSA1 learns to wear all hat's well, the faster he'll advance his business career.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
A salesman once told me:
Negotiating is like Tic-tac-toe
In reverse.
Whoever goes first
Can only tie,
Or lose.To get enough to eat was regarded as an achievement.
To get drunk was a victory.
Brendan Behan
Nice analogy Mike.
I'll remember that idea/game.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
blue
I'm the worst business man that I know, that's why I adopted the "no haggle" policy.
I can build some great stuff, but I have no business dealing with business!
I'm not dissing MSA1 here, hell we have all made bad decisions. I think he has gotten some good advice on how to deal with it. Hope it works for him cause I hate being in those positions, don't like to see fellow craftsman in them either.
I disagree with your disagreeing with me about negotiating. I will not play the game, and that's what it is.
Have you ever been to the An Arbor antique show, held about 8 months out of the year. I used to set up there about 4 times a year. I had my prices, held to them, discounted for dealers and no one else. I always did OK, when people see that your not playing the game they either buy or don't. Really never had any bearing on the final sales.
One thing that I remember from an old carp, also a very good business man, he always said, "you make your money on corners and changes", I've always liked that saying.
You are a business man, I'm not, and I really don't want to be. That's why I have to be the way that I am.
Doug
understand your concepts and have heard them many times
This first person to name a price thing gets interesting
Say two blue_eyed_devils meet at the negotiating table neither will give a number first - What does the real blue do?
Shoeman.....the two blueyed's stay silent. Silence will cause the other to drop their price. No one likes silence...especially when negotiating.
After stareing at each other, and bobbing and weaving....the two BEDs will eventually have to acknowledge that they both are taking the same tact and just laugh about it.
Trust me...when two negotiators meet...they both know, that the other knows. I've had buyers laugh at me when I use the assumed close on prices that are 25% higher than what they are willing to pay. I just laugh too, both knowing what the tactic is...When I'm dealing with a skilled negotiator, I become keenly aware of it real fast. I watch how they try to back me into a corner...but I'm always willing and ready with my own counteroffers....for instance, on one deal, I agreed to do the job at the price that they offered, but I'd have to leave the garage unbuilt...because that wasn't in MY budget!
Negotiating can be a fun game...if you don't let it get you down...
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
The other thing he could do is read up on negotiating. A number of years ago I took a two day class from Karass Negotiating (they seem to advertise in airline mags quite a bit). It was good stuff but of course I only remember a few nuggets now. One of the tactics I remember clearly is: always get something if you give something. If you give the guy a lower price (from $300 to $200) then demand something in return - perhaps it's immediate payment, perhaps it's an extra week to fit it into your schedule or whatever. But don't let the other guy think he "won" (entirely) by assuming he just got you to lower your price.
Again, I realize that this isn't going to make or break you. However good negotiating tactics come in handy all the time. Even w/your kids! :-)
- Rob
Stroke...that's a great tip...#### for tat....
If you pick up a tape or cd on negotiating, all the stuff they taught you will come back fast.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
Hey Blue,
I have been thinking for a day about how I would like to comment on your suggestions regaurding" haggling"------I want to be carefull not to strike the wrong " holier than thou" attitude!
I think your suggestion is PERFECTLY ethical---nothing wrong with it at all
But I think I would join Doug in saying It ain't for me.
One of the great things about being in business for yourself---is that you can do things your own way---it's a personal choice--like you don't want to do remodeling---your choice.
I am not gonna haggle. The method you describe????well I wouldn't want to use those tactics on a "friend"----I wouldn't tolerate a "friend" using those tactics on me----------and if I wouldn't do that with a friend------why would I accept it from a stranger?
Now---I think Doug probably handles things largely the way I do------I tell the customer this is what I am going to do, these are the materials I am going to use, and this is what my price is, I tell the customer up front how any changes will be charged---and that's that. Basically take it or leave it.
It's not harsh---it's effective.
However-----people who are hagglers aren't used to dealing with people who say what they mean, and stick to it.
but for every haggler who thinks I am harsh----I have no doubt their are 10 other customers who are gratefull.
Example:-----last Thursday December 9th I had arthroscopic surgery on my knee. At the exact time my knee is being cut-----an old customer for whom I have worked numerous times calls and leaves a message---he needs a repair. Now,----I don't get that message untill Friday morning december 10. I call the customer friday morning and I say" sorry I missed your call yesterday-----weather permitting I will be out Saturday to take care of your problem---and if the weather doesn't permitt Saturday---I will try for monday.
Saturday Morning, 9:30 am, December11,in snow flurries, I strap a ice pack on my knee and climb up on the customers roof to make his repair-----45 hours after knee surgery.
Now----ya think I am gonna do that for a guy who wants to haggle? Not only didn't he haggle---he paid me exactly 25% OVER the bill I gave him.
Also---do you think it is remotely possible he has told LESS than 10 people what I did for him? BTW---this was by actual count the 6th repair I have done for this guy.
Monday morning-----I got a similar call from another old customer------If the snow melts off intime today---I will go out early this afternoon to do HIS repair---before I go at 3:00 to have my stiches out. this will be the 4th repair by actual count I have done for this guy------he doesn't haggle either.
somebody wants to haggle? let 'em haggle with their butcher or a wallpaper hanger. I know what I am worth and I am not Haggling.
Eventually ya develope a faithfull following of customers who appreciate ya for doing exactly what you say you are gonna do. In fact ya kinda become famous for it
A little over a week ago I got a christmas card for a customer I put a roof on for last May
she writes " Thanks again for the terrific job on the roof & an extra special thanks for the gutter screen. you did an excellent job & I reccomend you to EVERYONE."
think I am gonna haggle with anybody she referrs me to? not likely.
My way might not be right for everyone-----but I am comfortable with it.
Best wishes, Stephen
6th repair...4th repair...hmmm....
just jokin', but I'm still tryin' to figure out how you do it in the number of hours you do....
"there's enough for everyone"
David,
when all is said and done----my yearly take is less than many here------and also more than many. definitely more than I could ever hope to make in my trade on somebody elses payroll.
But---basically it's a matter of simple arithmetic ( which is fortuneate---as my math skills don't extend much beyond arithmetic)
I have already decided how much I am going to make in 2005. I have decided how much I will spend on overhead in 2005.I have decided how many hours I will permit in 2005 for overhead, how many hours for roofing, how many for carpentry.
Only the roofing hours and the carpentry hours are directly billable---and since I have already decided how much I am going to make in the year----simple arithmetic tells me how much I had better be charging for each hour of production .
In 2005 my total production hours will not exceed 1024 hours. I am going to reduce my roofing hours ( but not their billable rate), I will increase my carpentry hours---but will bill at a somewhat lower rate than I do for roofing( as my carpentry projects are much lower risk and lower stress)
Soooooooooo, since I know exactly how much I need to charge----and historical data tells me with a high degree of certainty how much I will actually be working----it's simple math.
And---since I already know what the magic numbers are----it's an utter impossibility for a prospective customer to talk me into a lower price.
I don't know how else to explain it----it's quite simple really when you decide in advance what the result is going to be. with the decision made in advance---all your actions can be evaluated as to wether they bring you closer to your pre-designed destination---or wether thing take you farther away from it.
Very best wishes to you , David
Stephen, you are truly a pro...
"there's enough for everyone"
stephen.... ( your not a steve , are you ? )..
i think i do it the same way as you... and the thing that makes it easier than when i was starting out is:
confidence in my prices.. and knowing that this is the way I want to do the job.. not the way someone else may do it... so.. my price is my price..
one of the things blue said that i will do is that i will change my price... but only if i get a corresponding change in the scope..as long as the change in the scope is still in the best interests of the homeowner..
IE: i do not want to create a liability issue for myself... because a liability will destroy an awful lot of profitMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
definitely a Stephen.
Also-----I thought about mentioning the change of scope-------------
but then I realized in my case a change of scope is NEVER gonna reduce the price.
Example---- potential customer calls me with a problem. I look at his problem and tell him how I would handle the situation----what I am gonna do, what materials I am gonna use, what my price is gonna be. I won't permit the customer to change the scope of the project to reduce the price----the price can only stay the same or increase with a change of scope---never decrease.
After all----I already told the customer how I was gonna solve his problem----reducing the scope won't solve his problem. I am not gonna use a lower quality of materials( though I might INCREASE the quality of materials), my overhead isn't gonna drop----so there is nowhere to reduce the price.As you mentioned---reducing the scope might cause problems for me (liability) down the road------not in my interest.
I am interested in SOLVING his problem-------not taking his problem and making it MY problem.
Of course this works for ME------but it wouldn't necissarily work if I was in something like the kitchen remodeling business. I imagine a certain amount of give and take would be required there----and as you might note----I am not tempermentally suited for that! LOL
Stephen
Stephen,Your earlier post was my own credo exactly. I don't game people, and don't let them game me. Life is too short for such nonsense when there are people whose values align with my own, whom I would rather be working for. In that sense, being my own boss is a lifestyle choice.I have a friend who is an inventor and manufacturer on a small scale. He once told me that the greatest thing business had taught him was that, "Working for mean people is never worth it." Or words to that effect. This mattered more to him than the money.Bill
Bill,
perhaps we are kindred spirits?
I do know that one of the truly GREAT pleasures of self employment is the ability to look someone in the eye and say----" no"
I don't know if that pleasure is ever really available on someone elses payroll.
Stephen
Mike
confidence in my prices..
I think that says a lot.
I know what my work is worth, know what I have get for that work and I'm not about to dicker over it.
I think blue just likes the game! I dont, if I want to play games I'll go home and play with the kids momma.
Doug
Doug...it's a fun game...and we all play it every day in many facets of life. Some of us are more aware of when it's happening.
blueWarning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
This guy is NOT your frienf AND heis NOT a good guy.
Go ahead and convince yourself all you want.
It's you that gonna end up with the shiddy end of the stick.
He's and azzhole, plain as can be.
EricI Love A Hand That Meets My Own,
With A Hold That Causes Some Sensation.
Quit beating around the bush, and tell him what you really think!To get enough to eat was regarded as an achievement.
To get drunk was a victory.
Brendan Behan
I see this is a lively topic. I'm a customer so I'll give you my perspective.
>>I told him we'd talk about it on monday(since i'm not exactly sure which corner hes talking about), I want to be sure I actually didnt overprice the change. <<
The best thing to do at this point was to go to the house and see it in person. Why even take a chance on upsetting a good (?) customer by quoting the wrong price? When you visited w/him, and told him the price, if he said "stuff" to you about doing it cheaper then that would obviously be your invitation to say "great, call me when it's done and I'll come over and finish the rest of the job". (And be sincere, not a smart aleck). If he agrees to the price then create the change order, have him sign it, do the work and be on your merry way.
Frankly it doesn't sound that difficult to me. Sounds like you just need some experience handling "challenging" customers. There are many books written on the subject. My Father has been a carpenter for many years - I've heard the war stories.
Good luck,
Rob
Thanks for all the good advice. The business end of this is a constant learning experience and I dont think I did that badly with this lesson. The only reason I dropped my price is that it was a smaller change than I thought. I certainly broke my own policy in giving a price over the phone(I know better).
lately Im begining to think tha somehwer I missed an important front page bulletin n all the newspaers. it said
"screw the contractors"
I don t know
maybe it comes form the big box store that says do it yourself
its like, if its a neccessity , complain about the price.
if its a luxuray, pay the bill and go
examples
a house, a neccessity, 300 bucks to fix a drywall corner that HO CHANGED, that will be in the person life as long as they own the house...........wah....wah ..wah Im not paying
ok, a luxuray, Oh, my big screen tv needs a 25Cent fuse, and your charging me 400, ok, as long as I get it back in time for despirate housewives or monday night football
I was a carpenter in college, now I'm a suit. There is work I can do myself, and work I would rather pay someone else to do (because SWMBO want's it done NOW). For that I have a good friend that is a GC.When I ask him to cost out work, I expect him to give me a price that is profitable for him and reasonable for me. I don't expect favors, discounts, or freebies unless that is what other customers get. Conversely, I also expect him to schedule and complete the job in a manner similar to his other (full price) customers. We are clear that in all business dealings, we work work in a busines-like manner. Now for changes... First, I hate haggling; second, I hate people that haggle for sport. He quotes a price, usually prefaced by it "could be as high as $xxx, or lower. You'll get a firm price when I look at it". When his best estimate is higher than I expected or want to pay, I ask what I can do to reduce the price. This means what can he take out to make it cheaper, not what his family can do without so I get a deal.