As a 2nd year union carpenter apprentice out of chicago, I have now been doing residential stick framing for close to three years. So this past week it was my time to take my “Metal Stud Framing Class”, a so-called type or aspect of carpentry, of which I had no experience. The class was taught by a man who is convinced that anyone who frames with wood is automatically dumb and a hack. He believes that all construction, whether it be large commercial or small residential, should be framed in metal wherever possible because metal studs are lighter, stonger and flame resistent. Is this the way all commercial carpenters think?
Well, this class left such a bitter taste in my mouth that even if I would get paid more money I still would not work with metal. I dont think it is faster or easier to use than wood. It is more dangerous than wood because of the sharp edges after being snipped.
What do you guys think?
Replies
I've done a fair bit of interior framing in light gauge steel. It's easy and fun, and the resulting walls are nice and straight. I think it's a decent substitute for wood, and it's probably more productive.
Using steel in the structure is another matter. Here in Japan they build both light gauge and heavy gauge steel frames for residences, usually in combination with hebels. Since the Kobe Quake, steel has gained market share over the traditional post and beam. Much larger market share than in the US.
People prefer steel because of the popular notion that it's safer in a fire. This is sort of a misconception, because after all, this light stuff doesn't have any fire proofing. People are not aware of the fact that, while it won't burn, it will melt and collapse--and this may be worse. A post and beam house may actually give you more time to get out before structural failure, provided solid wood is being used.
Moreover, and a quake issue, hebels tend to get knocked out of line in an earthquake unless they are installed just so. Furthermore, steel buildings shake much more violently in a quake, and the damage to the interior is much more severe than in post and beam or stick-framed buildings.
Onsite installation of interiors that involves drilling into structural steel is no fun. Great if everything is prefabricated and all the holes drilled in the factory, but otherwise I don't see how it could be more productive than fastening to wood structure.
Another factor is rust. In the humid, salt wind environment of Japan, posts in light gauge steel buildings are known to rust out at the base. Wood actually has more longevity, theoretically, provided you can keep the ants away.
The only reason I would use a steel building here is design. Code restricts most wooden buildings to about 30 feet in height, and rooms must be less than 400 sq. ft. Steel suffers from no such restrictions. You can build as high and as open as you like. This is a tremendous advantage where land prices are high.
On balance, though, I think heavy gauge engineered wood is a better solution than structural steel for smaller buildings, and recent changes in our codes make it possible to build much higher and more open than with traditional wood frame buildings. Cheaper, safer, greener and more aesthetically pleasing. Not to mention more enjoyable to work with.
I am a DIY and finished a basement for a friend.
Another friend of mine does commercial finish work and suggested that I use metal studs.
And showed me how to work them.
I like them, but it was different and I did use some wood. One place was a small alcove that was about 3x3 with a door in one side.
But the one place that the metal really, really shines was that I had to fur down arount a horizontal drain pipe.
As I told my friend I started attaching nothint to nothing and soem I had something.
don't get a bad taste in your mouth just because of your teacher...
i happen to like metal... malco makes a really cool hand crimp tool where you'll about never have to screw... just crimp & go
metal doesn't twist unless you want it to... and i can frame as fast with metal as i can with wood in most cases...
BUT... around here i'm now pay'n $5.40 for 2x6 x12 #1 & 2 and a metal 25ga 2x6x12 is cost'n me $10.20 if i was do'n a single 20ft wall wouldn't be a big deal but when you are order'n 500 at a pop... you can see why we are drive'n nails this week anyway...
the worst thing to have is a material out there thats perfect for your job.... and not know about it....
pony
I don't care for metal that much, but let me psot to you a good suggestion for this and the rest of your life since you are young yet.
Much of success and happiness in life depends not just on how hard we work, or on what we know, or who we know, but it also depends very much on our emotional maturity.
The teacher of that class obviously lacked it. It could be that he falls into the class of people who are responsible for the saying, "If you can't do it - teach it"
But you have a chance to put the attitude behind you, examine the pros and cons of metal framing, and be ready to apply that knowledge where it is appropriate, and do it well, without regard to the AH who introduced you to the material. Base you sdecisions on objective evidence and your own experiences and what you hear from others, and not on the emotional responce to the jerk in front of the classsroom. Apply that process to many other things in your life and life will be much more serene.
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It is good to know how to work with it, since it is common in commercial jobs.
It most definitely should not be used for framing of the outside walls of a building. It doubles the heat loss from the walls. Even if you had high quality insulation, carefully fitted and installed, you'd have double the heat loss with metal studs.
It makes pulling wiring more difficult in retrofits in homes because the armored cable that must be used is difficult to pull.
Metal framing is good where nice, straight walls are needed, or when less expensive locally than wood.
I can add my opinion here.I have been a metal stud carpenter in the union for 20 years.The advice from others about your instructor is good,don't let one AH ruin your chance of learning something new.The predjudices he holds are unfortuately common among drywall carpenters(we tend to think we are faster and our work straighter than wood-obviously not true).
The truth is they are 2 different monsters best seperated by the classifications of commercial and residential,although I believe light guage steel will have a major part in the future of tract housing.
My advice to you as a union carpenter is to keep an open mind towards steel.My experience is that metal stud framers(drywallers/lathers)are consistantly working more than wood butchers(oops!)because there is lots of work for us indoors in the wintertime.In my area most union wood carpenters are building forms for bridges or foudations ect.There are quite alot of trim/cabinetmakers in the union here but I don't know how busy they are.Most of the residential work is non union around here.
It really comes down to what you want to do,life is full of choices.I started out as a piecework rocker in houses and enjoyed the independence and money.I had the chance to learn metal studs and ran with it.20 years later I have grown tired of the repetition and constant pressure on production rates,I find I miss the apreciation of homeowners and contractors of a job well done.In commercial work it seems to always be hurry up, we're over budget,we need to get you on the next one.That said,I have a nice annuity building up and on Febuary 1,I will be getting a $3500 vacation check and this year I will actually get to use it for a vacation.Ixtapa here I come!South of the border down Mexico way.....Cya,Mike
Couple of different things here. Load bearing walls made out of steel are a different animal, and require a little different assembly than putting together LGS partitions in a commercial or residential setting. I don't know a heck of a lot about the heavy gauge stuff; it's not my game.
I do use LGS in basements, well, as much as possible. There's about a five minute learning curve to make the transition between wood and steel. To me, the steel goes together faster, yields a straighter wall, and offers a handful of very appealing alternatives when it comes to avoiding pipes and building soffits (which I do a lot of, since I finish off a lot of basements.) It's light, which means I can carry 2 bundles (20 studs) down the steps at a time, and since the studs only need to be screwed to the track, rather than bearing tightly as wood does, it simplifies areas - again, like a basement - where the floor to ceiling height waves a little.
Another advantage is widths. I can build a wall of 1 5/8 steel (which is essentially like firring a wall out) but avoid any irregularities in the concrete from transferring to the finished surface. I haven't lost any more floor space, but I have achieved a flat surface. If its going to be a drop ceiling, life just got that much better, since you can run the studs and DW higher than your L channel is going to sit, which makes cutting the DW that much easier. If you happen to have pipes right where you want the wall, no problem. You can run braces from the top up to the joists.
Now, steel costs more than wood. To me its a wash. I put steel together faster, enough so that steel is probably slightly more profitable if I price it identically to wood. I have a distinct preference for the 20ga as opposed to the 25; its much more sturdy, and most of the subs like having the precut holes for running wires and pipe. The cost to move up in gauge is marginal. The last basement I priced out, less than $100 on the whole package.
Bottom line, no, most think like you. No need to be so obtuse as your instructor, and frankly I agree with you. Your experience with the guy certifies him as somewhat of a flake. But don't discount steel just because of him. It has its advantages. It is worth learning, and you will likely find a job in your future where the opportunity to use steel solves problems that would be much harder to tackle with wood. Learn about it and tuck it in the brain. Never hurts to have more tools in the box.
Edit: I just wanted to add after reading the rest of the posts, that in my neck of the woods, in residential, you can still mix romex and steel. Sparky just uses bushings that clip onto the romex and screw to the studs (drops) or insulators that snap in to the cutouts (horizontal runs). Commercial you have to pipe everything. They don't allow BX for anything. (Which I think is idiotic, but they didn't ask my opinion).
Edited 1/8/2005 6:56 pm ET by RW
Who was your instructor? tell me it was nos not that AH "mr." hueghs.
i'm a brother in local 58 and went through the same program 7 years ago. just stay the course and tolerate your "instructors". remember "they know more than you because they are the teachers". just ask them they will tell you.
His name was Mr. De La Riva. Never worked a day of residential in his life. He worked 8 years in the commercial field and that makes him qualified to teach. (yeah, right) The instructors in the apprentice program is my only complaint about Union cartpentry program in Chicago. I dont know how these teachers got their jobs. I guess its not how much you know, its who you know.
Dont get me wrong, I appreciate every perk that comes from being in the union----Higher wage, safer workplace, higher standards. I consider myself lucky because I was placed with awesome journeymen who took me under their wings and taught me all they know. So the school isn't that important to me because most of the time I already have a pretty good understanding of the subject matter. But for these apprentices who werent blessed with tolerant journeymen, they are the ones who are suffering from these AH instructors.
del la riva i understand now. he's a dick. but like i said man stay the course cause if you fail the classes you an apprentice that much longer. i'm glad for you that you got some talent to show you the things they dont show you in school. stay with your jw and you'll be better off. just keep telling yourself it's just for a little longer. also sorry it took so long for the reply been working to much.
I work 100% residential.
100% nonUnion.
90% wood framing.
and I think I agree about 95% with that ahole instructor!
steel is great. Wish I knew more about structural steel to use it for structural framing.
it is straighter and lighter. I'm just as quick with steel as I am wood.
I only think steel in basements ... and use it alot in kitchen bulkheads.
Here ... my electrician doesn't need shielded cable ... he just pops in plastic gromits.
as long as I cut from the same end ... he's happy. Both him and the plumber have a big "hole popper" ... so adding a hole is quicker than drilling thru lumber. Step bits are also just as quick for drilling 2 small holes for zip ties as it is to screw in a wire stay.
I hand crimp my studs ... hand cramp then add a screw for weight bearing bulkheads.
last big job was 400 10 ft'ers ...
40 bundles ..... or 400 wood studs?
which would U rather carry around back and into the basement.
That ... and what's the deal with sheding a little blood?
Just don't touch the sharp end?
Be glad you got a chance to learn about the system. Most carps don't ...
and will always fear change.
I'm glad my teck school taught a little on steel. Just enough for me to know it was a good product.
Don't know what your union atmosphere is ... but around here ... it's 99% commercial.
U wanna work the union here ... U better work well with steel studs.
It's not harder ... just different.
Plus ... it's shiney!
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Most of my career has been with wood-stud framing, and its what I'm most comfortable with. But I have done my share of metal-stud framing, all of it commercial tenant-improvement work. And for indoor remodeling work in a working office or medical environment, I think it can't be beat. No circular saws, no sawdust, no drilling, no hammering - all of this is of great importance when working around office personnel.
We always added wood framing surrounding door and window openings that were going to be trimmed with standard wood casing, but that was basically the only wood we used. Metal stud framing is quick, clean, light, and quiet. This is in reference to non-load-bearing light gage metal framing. I've worked jobs with heavier-gage steel, and its a different story (i.e., not quiet at all). But it has its place also. You have to stay open-minded and accept change, the field is always evolving.