I just finished a job where we had to replace all the framing lumber under a kitchen that had suffered water damage from a leaking plastic refrigerator line.
The line was not Pex, some sort of plastic, had several pinholes, that were spraying water for several years. I am not sure what caused the failure of the plastic pipe. The next door neighbor mentioned mice.
Unfortunately I discarded the plastic refrigerator line before looking at it in greater detail. I wonder what caused the failure. Then I got to thinking, do mice chew through Pex to get access to water?
One thing I do remember is that the surface of the plastic pipe was very rough, not smooth, like it had corroded. This was a refrigertor line, which is normally 1/4″.
Replies
Don't know about Pex specifically, but mice seem to chew about anything.
I know they will chew insulation from wiring so pex would not surprise me.
Jim
Almost undoubtedly not PEX, nor meeses. The older plastic tubing, whose name now escapes me, was very prone to exactly the failure you describe from things like embrittlement due to chlorine etc, and stress cracking where it was bent too tightly. I try to always use copper for icemaker lines and leave a good coil of it for moving the fridge later.PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
polybutelene (sp?) ?
Yeah, I think that was the stuff. PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
Interesting. There is also a plastic refrigerator line from the angle stop to the refrigerator, but that was pristine. It could be that the refrigerator is relatively new, hence the plastic supply line is okay?Chlorine as a corrosive element in this case sounds about right.
Makes sense to me. As I say, I try whenever I can to use copper for this very reason.PaulB
http://www.makeabettertomorrow.com
http://www.finecontracting.com
Actually, it was fluorine, not chlorine, that was the villain in the Poly-B fiasco.
Whatever. Mice: Yet another good reason to use copper....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
<Whatever. Mice: Yet another good reason to use copper....>Guess I missed the other good reasons to use copper, eh?http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=1.1
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Ha, ha, ha anecdotes, anecdotes, anecdotes... never actually used pex, have ya?http://www.google.com/search?q=copper+pipe+failures&ie=utf-8oe=utf-8&aq=trls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-####http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
never actually used pex, have ya?
Sure have. I even keep a few fittings on hand and a selection of crimp rings in my hardware cabinet.
Doin' high-quality remod work like I do, I never know when I'm gonna have to tie a nice new copper riser into a Pex feeder....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
<Doin' high-quality remod work like I do, I never know when I'm gonna have to tie a nice new copper riser into a Pex feeder....>okaaaay, and your problem with pex is...?http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I might outlive it.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Ya, growin' own baccy 'll help that<G> I've heard of certain fittings failing, but not the pex pipe, and it's been around about as long as you have.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I would tend to doubt that. When I was a kid, 'plastic' was Bakelite. 'Long about the time I was 10-ish or so, they invented Naugahyde....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I must be denser than usual... what does any of this have to do with pex? I'm thinking your experience's way more limited than, say, well, a real plumber... I hang out with these guys, and contrary to what Cosmo in Moonstruck said, copper is not king anymore.And as far as your high end remodels, how is copper making those any more higher end, other than price. Wasting money on copper, and the time to install it, is a disservice to a client, IMO... unless you have some actual facts on the inferiority of PEX.http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
I was born in 1951. My father was a rubber and plastics processing machinery engineer, and as a result I was a bit more aware than most kids my age of what new and wunnerful gee-whiz goo the chemistry-set boyz were pushing thru the machinery he designed.
Normally, I would run a search on Google for a history of Pex and quote you the exact date it was invented, but I'm in the middle of a 19-meg download on a 38kbps dial-up connection (tax software, dammit!!) and I don't want to slow down this box any more than I already have. But if cross-linked polyethylene has been around since 1951, I'm not aware of it.
The point is, there have been too many surprises in the synthetic building materials biz, most of which have been caused by a combination of (a) over-optimistic longevity assumptions cranked through computer-modeling programs, and (b) the inability of any chemical engineer--no matter how honest or meticulous--to foresee all the possible chemical interactions with yet-to-be-invented synthetics or even with relatively common chemicals found in the home environment.
'Poly-B' tubing is the poster-boy case on this one: Nobody responsible for putting that stuff on the market foresaw that fluoridated water would cause pinholes in it after a period ranging from 5-15 years. As a result, millions of homes were plumbed with the stuff--hey! it's fast, easy, and cheap...and plastic is forever; it says so right here on the label!!--and when they all started to leak, Poly-B became the defendant in the largest class-action lawsuit in US legal history up to that point.
I don't know any better than you do--or than the guys who invented Pex do, for that matter--what the future holds for Pex-plumbed houses. To my knowledge, it's only been in general plumbing use for about 25 years (and you may correct me on that number if you like), so any assumptions as to its ability to last for longer than that are precisely that: assumptions, based on wishful thinking.
They may turn out to be true--but 'may' could cause me to have to rip out a bazillion bucks worth o' tile if time proves it false. I can't afford that.
But I do know that copper tubing has a track record approaching 100 years, and we know--from historical performance data, not from computer modeling--what happens to it over defined periods of time when exposed to all the chemicals found or put in household potable water.
Finally, I said I do 'high-quality' remods, not 'high-end'. There's a difference. My concern is that when I leave the job, the client is happy and stays happy. It doesn't matter if it's a $400 toilet changeout or a total gut job with a bumpout totalling $40K--I'm not going to put anything in there that I don't have absolute confidence in to outlast me...and I figger I got another 40 or so years to go before I get to kick back and let somebody else worry about running the planet.
Hell, I better have another 40 years left: it's gonna take me that long to pay off the second mortgage I had to take to pay off X....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
I understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree with it. I've seen more failures in copper pipe, than any plastic, other than pvc, and that includes poly b. From pinhole leaks, elbows clogged with mineral deposits, to frozen fittings that split or loosened,to crimped, bent, or otherwise malformed... along with the cost and time savings of plastic has led me to believe pex is superior. My opinion.And, in case you're still downloading, late 50's for pex.
http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
From the wiki on PEX
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-linked_polyethyleneHistoryThe first PEX material was prepared in the 1930s, by irradiating the extruded tube with an electron beam. The electron beam processing method was made feasible in 1970s but was still expensive. In the 1960s, Engel cross-linking was developed. In this method a peroxide is mixed with the HDPE before extruding, with the cross-linking taking place during the passage of the melted polymer through a long heated die. In 1968, the Sioplas process using silane was patented, followed by another silane-based process, Monosil, in 1974. A process using vinylsilane followed in 1986.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Thanks for that; now that that eternal download is finished I went and read the whole thing. Here are a few more excerpts:
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
Here's another interesting link:http://www.corrview.com/tech_p_04.htmhttp://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
and, Uponor puts a 100yr life expectancy on Wirsbro.http://www.randhmechanical.com/us/radiant_heat/wirsbo.aspI have found 65 years for cu, but it depends on where it's made, wall thickness, etc, and who's spouting the info<G>http://www.tvwsolar.com
Now I wish I could give Brother Bill his great thrill
I would set him in chains at the top of the hill
Then send out for some pillars and Cecil B. DeMille
He could die happily ever after"
Thanks for the info. The Wirsbo system I went with uses the PEX-A formula, which sounds like the best bet compared to the others that were listed there.You mentioned somewhere above about a PEX lawsuit. Interestingly it it's centered in MN and on the brass fittings used in the Zurn system. Seems that Zurn is/was US Brass, which was the supplier of the bad fittings/pipe for the old Poly-B systems. Know anything more about that? Don't know if that's mere coincidence or an outfit to be avoided.For what it's worth, give the Wirsbo expander system a try if you can. The notion of crimped on fittings always seemed squirrel-y to me. But the expander has been great.'Man who say it cannot be done should not interrupt man doing it' ~ Chinese proverb
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Don't thank me for the info; that came from the Wikipedia article you found last night!
Harrumph. I'm in the middle of another long download; gotta do two years' taxes at once this year 'cause last year the feds advised me not to file my return until the provincial dumbdorks got their thumbs outta my file....
Yeah, the Wiki article stated that one side or the other on those Pex class action suits were claiming the failures were in the brass fittings; it was a bit vague if that was a defense or an accusation that something in the Pex caused the brass to fail. I have heard of Zurn, but only in connection with ZurnPex; I don't know anything else about them.
OHHHHH, Great!!! the download just terminated, the download process window popped up in front of this window with no warning while I was typing this message and a keystroke must have nicked the 'cancel' button. Best I can figure, anyway.
In any event the file--all 18.9 meg of it--has vanished into electronic neverneverland....
Search function says it's not anywhere on the C drive....
Halleflippinlullah. Hope to heck the company will let me download it again without paying another 35 bucks.
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
"the feds advised me not to file my return until the provincial dumbdorks got their thumbs outta my file...."
Good luck! Quebec has taken almost two years to process my Dad's estate taxes. That's after I put in a formal request for it to be expedited.
Taxes all done.
First set of checks came through today, from Jean Charest!!!!!!!!
Arrrggghhh. Yer so organised.
Wanna do mine?
I thot not....
Finally got both programs downloaded and activated about midnight last night. Am about to start the really hard part of this job: finding all the T4s and receipts.
First, I'm gonna need a snowshovel to empty the 'IN' basket....
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
When I got a new refrigerator I asked about delivery. And they all said that they would deliver and take the old one, but they would not "install" it if there was a plastic tubing for the feed.I was connecting a water line a new refrigerator for a client. The frig had a label on the back not to use plastic lines, unless it was there PEX kit.It might have been a GE. I don't remember. Now I have never seen 1/4" PEX. So I don't know if it is something that is made specially for them. Or it might be 3/8" with adapters on each end..
William the Geezer, the sequel to Billy the Kid - Shoe
Since mice and rats have teeth that never stop growing they will gnaw on anything. The #### found out during their Russian campaign when the rats got into their tanks and chewed up the electric wires. I guess they were doing their part for the war effort, lol.
"If all else fails, read the directions"
Romex insulation has lead in it so it tastes sweet.not saying that mice, rats, or squirrels won't get to PEX, but haven't heard of it yet
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I did not know that! Always wondered what the attraction was for them.
Ya' larn sumptin everday.
Raining here today, so I am wasting time at BT, should be catching up the paperwork.
I trust there is no swine flu on the island yet. Might be a good place to be.
JimNever underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
"I trust there is no swine flu on the island yet. Might be a good place to be."Not necessarily. This is a place folks come to get away from...and bring it all with them.
And the school kids get off to sports etc and swap spit around then bring the cooties home....
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Philadelphia, ~ 30 miles away from me as the crow flies.
One affluent private school with 25 cases of swine flu - I could not figure out how this happened - I found out yesterday - the kiddies had all gone to Cancun for spring break - they brought home souvenirs.
>>This is a place folks come to get away from...and bring it all with them.<<
Hadn't thought about that!
Hmmmmmm...
Enlist help of local artist if needed. In the dark of night, post new rate schedule at mainland ferry landing - if you replicate the existing sign well, the locals will not even notice the sign has changed as it is part of the background scenery for them. It will probably take weeks for a local to notice!
Something like $100 for foot passenger, $200 for bicycle, $ 1000 for a car, one way fares of course, cash only.
Jim Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I could even collect the fares myself...I wear a work type vest that is similar to the day glo one the attendent/ticket taker wears, and my normal uniform clothes look about right, so weekly during summer, the tourists try to give me their ticket to punch or ask me specific directions about where to go since I look officious
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Can't say about pex but can assure you that there is no question that mice did eat through the plastic discharge hose on our dishwasher.
Let's not confuse the issue with facts!
it wasn't pex if it was 1/4" .. if it was clear/translucent it may well have been mice, we had problems with squirrels in the sugar bush with the first clear plastic lines, they kept trying to eat the bubbles in the line .. however if it was mice you'ld have noticed the chew marks, they wouldn't have been pin holes ..
Little devils! We had a similar problem with a 2" water supply line running about 6" below the surface through the forest - except it was bears. Maybe it was the sound of the water or air bubbles, but for some reason they dug down and bit through the plastic, then seemed to abandon the attack when the water sprayed out.
Several times I've seen holes where pex passes through walls that mice or rats have expanded to get access to houses, but although the wood was well chewed, the pex was always untouched.
I was on a project a number of years ago where mice had chewed through the dishwasher drain hose.
"Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words." - St. Francis of Assisi
No, I didn't vote for him; but he IS my president. I pray for the his safety, and the safety of his family every day. And I pray that he makes wise decisions.
First guess, is that the old line was polyethylene, as opposed to pex, which is cross linked polyethylene.
Pex was developed, by cross linking the molecules on the polyethylene, to solve a particular problem with poly lines.
Poly line has a problem with developing longitudinal stress failures, from crystalizing in response to water hammer. The lines to ice makers are particuarly prone to this because the shut off is accomplished by a solinoid valve, which turns the water on and off instantly, coupled with their relatively long run length as compared to the diameter.
Plastic water feeds are not allowed in many buildings because it fails. One place I oversee on the 63 floor in NY leaked all the way to 61 before it was found.
Copper tubing only to feed the ice and water makers is the rule for everything I do.
As for PEX, keep the mice out of the building.