A customer has asked me to hang a new 3′-0 door and jamb in an existing opening. The building is a simple one story garage/shop that’s 18 feet wide, and the trusses bear on the wall with the door in it. 6/12 roof with comp shingles and no attic storage. The walls are finished so I can’t see the header, and I haven’t poked any holes to explore yet, but I assume it’s either a 4×6 or 4×8 spanning 38″. The desired replacement door is an inch too tall for the opening, and it’s steel, so it can’t be cut. This could conceivably involve simply cutting horizontally to remove 1″ from the bottom of the header and make room for the door. I would be satisfied doing this if the header were 4×8 but my instinct is that taking an inch out of a 4×6 header would make my insurance carrier unhappy, even if the roof load is light. Obviously, it could also be a 4×4 or even 2 2×4 on the flat, in which case there’s nothing that can safely be removed. I never calc my own beams or headers, they always come on the plans or I call an engineer to size things.
The owner wants an easy deal here and I want a safe one. Any comments on the header sizing?
Obviously, I could also specify that they buy a wood door so I can cut it to 79″ and be done with it.
Edited 11/14/2004 6:26 pm ET by davidmeiland
Replies
Explain to the homeowner what could happen if you cut into the header one inch all the way across, it could create a sag in the roof, fascia, and top plate over time should that header be insufficiant to carry the load.That could also cause problems with the door working over time.Best bet is to open up the sheetrock or what ever is there and put in the right header, otherwise you may be the guy to have to come back to fix the sticking door.
open the wall and see what you got.. then check your code to see if it works..
if it doesn't .. see if you can substitute some steel or something that will comply
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Re-reading my post, I see that I wasn't clear enough. What I really want to know is whether a 4x6 header minus one inch (a 4x5) will hold up a couple of trusses in the roof described. Judging by the mere fact that I posted the question you can tell that I'm skeptical. All I'm looking for is some off-the-cuff tongue-in-cheek hands-on-hips casual engineering opinions. I know for a fact that I could cut 1" out of a 4x8 and still be OK.
Yeah, I could go over there and do some exploratory work, but I really just need to throw a number at the owner and see if it sticks. If I have to perform open-wall surgery I suspect they won't want to pay for it.
The building is only 18' wide! That means only a 9' span of roof loading on it.
Unless you are in the Sierras with a tremendous snowload requirement, a doubled 2x4 would carry that load over such a short span.
of course, Mike Smith was right too.
;)
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rule of thumb.. a 2x4 header should do it.. but i'd still check the local code
it could have been framed wrong.. and the header could be 2x4's flat.. better to take a look
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 11/14/2004 8:52 pm ET by Mike Smith
True
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you can tell that I'm skeptical ... throw a number at the owner and see if it sticks
Well, that's a no-brainer. Price it for worst case: you have to open the wall and insert a new header. Then if the existing header is ok, you've made a little extra. If it's not ok, then you have covered your costs with a little profit at the end.
If the HO says the price is too high, tell him what's included, and offer to reduce the cost if the exploratory work shows the new header is not needed. But be sure you get approval to bill for opening the wall.
Maybe he will agree to a slightly shorter door.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt
Edited 11/14/2004 11:09 pm ET by Ed Hilton
Edited 11/14/2004 11:11 pm ET by Ed Hilton
Who sez ya can't cut a steel door? I had to do it once before, when a door buck in a concrete wall was set too low. I think it was 3/4" too low. The door had a flange about 1/2" long at the bottom, so I was only cutting 1/4" off the bottom rail of the door. Used circ saw with steel cutting blade and a straight edge, cut one side then flip door and repeat. Cleanup with 4" angle grinder. Paint or seal the now-exposed wood rail on the bottom edge of the door to protect from moisture. Have a look at the door, it might work.
Wally
Yes, you can do it, but keeping this in mind - I asked about getting a steel door ordered at a shortened size. The answer was that if I ordered it to size, there would be a $75 upcharge and they would still gaurantee the door. Or that I could cut it down myself and void the warrantee. I figured it would take a good fifty bucks to cut, and finish it in labour costs and ordered it from them.
But in this case, the door is already bought, and I would find it faar easier to sawsall the openning than to retrofit the door.
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David, they have replacement sized steel doors. They would probably fit right in there.
I'd whack the inch out without worrying. The top plates alone would hold those trusses.
blue
Warning! Be cautious when taking any framing advice from me. Although I have a lifetime of framing experience, all of it is considered bottom of the barrel by Gabe. I am not to be counted amongst the worst of the worst. If you want real framing information...don't listen to me..just ask Gabe!
To find out what size the header is, I think I'd get a small drill bit and just drill some holes in the sheet rock. Use a piece of wire to poke around in there and see how high the header is. Then, a quick swipe of mud would cover up the exploratory surgery.
Don't bring common sense into the discussion.
Whenever you are asked if you can do a job, tell'em "Certainly, I can!" Then get busy and find out how to do it. T. Roosevelt