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I wouldn’t do it, for ethical reasons. What does the inspector say? If it isn’t illegal, it oughtta be.
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I wouldn't do it, for ethical reasons. What does the inspector say? If it isn't illegal, it oughtta be.
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I thought exits were on the way out?
*<>Now there's a good beaurocrat!As noted, check with the local inspector.I'd ask the person who made the decision to give me their personal indemnity, to cover any costs and losses I might incur as a result installing an Exit sign where there is, in fact no exit, including, but not limited to, serving any jail time for being found guilty of wanton indifference to human life.Did the Request for Information include your description of possib;le consequences? I'd go for Request for Information #172, myself.BobBob
*Unless the exit signs are along the path of egress, even exit signs with arrows don't belong there.I'd refuse to install them. Too much liability. There's a fire, some kid dies, it had nothing to do with the exit signs, didn't even happen in the gym but her parents are angry, looking for someone to blame. You know what happens when her lawyer tours the school and sees your signs over a bricked over exit door.
*Why not just install two exit signs adjacent to each other over one legitimate door?blue
*Your building inspector is probably knowledgable about this and won't allow an exit sign over a non-exit. If not, the fire inspector certainly is and certainly wouldn't allow it. I like Blued-Eyed's answer to the moral, legal, liability, and bureacratic issues involved.Is it moral to yell "Movie!" in a crowded Firehouse? -David
*Refuse to do it. I don't think you want to see yourself down the road with a "just following orders" Nuremberg defense. Make a stink if some moron tries to get it done anyway. This is a classic setup for civil tort liability because of the risk of confusion and the lethal consequence of a panicked crowd exiting a burning (or not) building.The fire marshal would probably not be amused. Hey, I wonder if sealing the exit was permitted in the first place? :)Don't yell fire in a crowded theatre, either ... if anyone gets hurt as a natural consequence of a stampede you cause, it's your pocketbook (and conscience, if you bother with those darn things).
*In reply to Bob....after spending 9 yrs as a building inspector for the federal government i did learn two things other than how to make good coffee:1) Public officials cannot be held liable for mistakes made or wrong decisions when acting under an official capacity unless they were acting maliciously......in other words they can be dumb as mud and get away with anything as long as they werent intentionally tryin to hurt anyone.2) Public officials place all liability on the architect/engineer or the contractor. Although they have codes and regulations the person who stamped the prints is always libel (in the govts eyes) for designing per code and assuring the project is built per all codes....It all boils down to insurance...all contractors and design professionals carry liability insurance. Only a few government employess carry it...Oh yea a 3rd thing I learned......how to be so fast as to get off work at 4:30 and be home by 3:15.....sounds like some of the help i have now that i have become an independent contractor lol
*That's funny! Skip
*Give them a choice (people love choices) of two options:1)Don't post the extra sign.2)Post the extra sign where it's shown on the plans...then re-create the doorway under the exit sign, just like it's shown on the plans.I'm having trouble believing people are actually this idiotic. At a school?
*Man, I hate it when I am in an unfamiliar building and walk towards the exit sign only to find, as I get closer, that it has the little arrow saying, "psyche!", then have to look around some more to try and find that exit.I always wonder what would happen in an emergency when the whole crowd gets there and finds the little arrow, but can't turn around (panicking crowds don't turn around easily).Dumb design, by people who did not see it with their own eyes, and installed by people forced to do so by mindless bureaucrats 'following the rules'.Its a good thing that buildings burn down so rarely these days, all those bureaucrats have done that much good, that these little dangers don't add up to much in the way of actual accidents.Please find a way to locate that sign at an exit. When you are looking for the exit you will instictively go toward one of those signs, they can be seen from a long way off (the arrow can not).
*I don't know what regulations would cover the students and general public that might be in attendance at the gym, but for the teachers and other employees of the school district, I would assume that OSHA regulations would have some bearing. The following, more than you probably want to know about exit signs, from:http://www.osha-slc.gov/OshStd_data/1910_0037.html(You can do a general search of OSHA regs at:http://www.osha.gov/)(As per part "q2" below, you might want to consider changing your sign to "Not an Exit" ...}This is from:OSHA Regulations (Standards - 29 CFR) Means of egress, general. - 1910.37 ...q) "Exit marking." (q)(1) Exits shall be marked by a readily visible sign. Access to exits shall be marked by readily visible signs in all cases where the exit or way to reach it is not immediately visible to the occupants. (q)(2) Any door, passage, or stairway which is neither an exit nor a way of exit access, and which is so located or arranged as to be likely to be mistaken for an exit, shall be identified by a sign reading "Not an Exit" or similar designation, or shall be identified by a sign indicating its actual character, such as "To Basement," "Storeroom," "Linen Closet," or the like. ..1910.37(q)(3) (q)(3) Every required sign designating an exit or way of exit access shall be so located and of such size, color, and design as to be readily visible. No decorations, furnishings, or equipment which impair visibility of an exit sign shall be permitted, nor shall there be any brightly illuminated sign (for other than exit purposes), display, or object in or near the line of vision to the required exit sign of such a character as to so detract attention from the exit sign that it may not be noticed. (q)(4) Every exit sign shall be distinctive in color and shall provide contrast with decorations, interior finish, or other signs. (q)(5) A sign reading "Exit", or similar designation, with an arrow indicating the directions, shall be placed in every location where the direction of travel to reach the nearest exit is not immediately apparent. (q)(6) Every exit sign shall be suitably illuminated by a reliable light source giving a value of not less than 5 foot-candles on the illuminated surface. Artificial lights giving illumination to exit signs other than the internally illuminated types shall have screens, discs, or lenses of not less than 25 square inches area made of translucent material to show red or other specified designating color on the side of the approach. (q)(7) Each internally illuminated exit sign shall be provided in all occupancies where reduction of normal illumination is permitted. (q)(8) Every exit sign shall have the word "Exit" in plainly legible letters not less than 6 inches high, with the principal strokes of letters not less than three-fourths-inch wide.
*You could just put it over the new toilet in the foyer!!!!David
*Norm - Interesting you say "When you are looking for the exit you will instictively go toward one of those signs". I would like to know the source or reason for it.Everything I've read and observed is that in an emergency people will try to leave the way they came in. In a study in England, tests were done using smoke bombs and alarms and even when the smoke was in front of the entrance, occupants exited towards that door, not the one in the other corner. Theory is that it is based on familiarity.
*I believe that one of the fundamental things to be learned in the trades is not to do work that is obviously wrong. Generally when your supervisor is not a moron you can simply explain what is wrong and the responsible parties make changes in the plans. Virtually all architechts put wording in their specs that require you to tell them their wrong, before doing what they told you to do. In other words there is a channel for information to go back up the hill from the peons to the morons(this is intended to be funny). Bottom line for me is i won't build something obviously wrong if i have the talent to avoid it. If i have to hit someone over the head with a 2X4 (figuratively) to get them to take my objection seriously i will.joe d
*Actually sovereign immunity doesn't extend to cities/localities, so you can sue if your car falls into a pothole the size of a lunar crater. And the federal government permits itself to be sued (waives immunity) in a number of contexts. So the mailman can't back his truck over you for free.No disagreements on the "dumb as mud" part.
*... and you were in the military?
*UPDATE -We installed the sign.I also e-mailed the local fire chief and explained the situation. He sent out inspectors the next day. Now, the GC and the school wants me to remove the sign. Naturally, I referred them to my supervisor. This will probably take a change order.Incidently, in my message to the chief, I suggested he look at your replies. Perhaps he did and I thank you all for your responses.
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Is it legal or ethical to put an Exit sign over a nonexistent exit?
Originally, the high school gymnasium I am working on had six sets of Exit doors. Each set of doors had a built in Exit sign over it. At some point, the school did some remodeling – probably to install a bathroom in the foyer – and, in doing so, replaced one set of doors with eight inches of solid concrete. The Exit sign over the former doorway remained. It was covered over with black duct tape.
Evidently, the engineer who designed this remodeling project was working from the original set of plans which were not updated to eliminate the now non-existant set of doors. So he specified and drew in six sets of exit lights. (Did he visit the site?)
A request for information was issued (#171) and it was confirmed that the school district had ordered and paid for 6 sets of Exit lights so six sets of Exit lights must be installed. (We’ll put in the little red arrow pointing to the real exits.)
My concern is that in a real panic situation – say a fire or an earthquake – having an exit sign over a blank stretch of 8” thick concrete wall would be slightly misleading. Your comments are welcome.