I would like some feedback from anyone that is familiar with Siegenthaler’s 2nd edition. I’m getting some wildly divergent advice from radiant heating distributors. Can an very capable DIY’er design a system based on the information within those pages if he follows the directions closely. Don’t worry about hurting my feelings, I parked my ego outside. Thanks a lot!
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That's an excellent book. See if you can get some of Wirsbo's design books too. I think some people carry the design of these systems to ridiculous complexity and expense. This is basically about pumping hot water through a bunch of tubes to heat your floor, not putting another man on the moon.
If you study up and are pretty capable of doing such things, I don't see any reason why you couldn't install a system yourself.
thanks for the input, but I'm concerned about designing the system.
My answer would be a qualified yes, but the designer who also installs and has done many systems will know a lot of little subtle things that you won't. How complicated is the job... all floor, all radiators, a mix of things?
I also highly recommend Siegenthaler's book. It's a little pricey, but well worth it whether you DIY or not.
What I'd recommend is that you read the book and decide from there if you want to design your own system. The math can get a little dense in places, but the overall methods do not depend on a ton of fancy math. Take it in pieces and keep a spreadsheet open for the calcs, and you'll have it down in no time.
It also comes with software (at least mine did) which helps with the heat loss calcs and heat transfer in simple rad loops. Very handy to double check the concepts.
Anyway, if after reading the book you decide you'd rather have someone else do it for you, you will be far ahead of the game in terms of understanding what you are getting for your money, being able to have intelligent conversations with your installer, etc.
Best of luck with it.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
Chauncey, consider doing what I did. I built my own house from the ground up, everything. The entire ground floor is radiant heat in a mortar bed with ceramic tile. It works great.
I found a guy in this area that does a lot of radiant systems. I made a deal with him that I'd buy everything for the system from him. I proved to him I'm good at plumbing and electrical and needed help only with things like loop lengths, component placement and wiring diagrams. I assured him I'd be an easy keeper. I was. When I told him I was done and ready to fill the system he insisted on coming by for an inspection because changes are so much easier before the system is filled.
It went really well, he made some money and I had someone to hold my hand.
Lee
As a side line, you may _have_ to find a plumber.I'm looking into a new high efficiency boiler with sidearm. I can't even get the local plumbing supply houses to give me a price on the equipment. They aren't allowed to sell to anyone other than a licensed gas-fitter. Kind of makes sense, since the manufacturers warrantees don't apply without licensed install but not even giving a price?
>>They aren't allowed to sell to anyone other than a licensed gas-fitter.
That kind of stuff really gets under my skin. Forget the dems and the reps., we need to be afraid of the plumbers and electricians. They actually control everything. ;-)
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
What is the scope of the install. A basic system should be no problem if you have the basic skills to do such work.
As the complexity goes up so does the risk of not getting the performance you would like.
Make sure the buried/hidden components are tested before they are covered up. You can make changes to exposed piping and controls in the future.
Good Luck,
Garett
Walk-out basement (concrete filled foam blocks), 1600 sf, 2 zones, tubes in pour;
1 st flr, 14" very tight logs, 1600 sf, 1 zone, gypcrete over tubes;
2 nd flr, 2x6 spray-in insul., 1400 sf, 1 zone, gypcrete over tubes;
roof is 8" SIP's, 14/12 pitch; 1 zone in attached garage. Thats it guys!!
I've got Dan Holohan's book on Radiant and lost some of my fear of the unknown due to his clear explanations. I may have to spring for this resource to expand my knowledge base a bit more, however.
To me , it seems that if you size up your PEX you can compensate for some of your design limitations by increasing flowrates somewhat and if your floor temp. gets too high before your space reaches an acceptable temp, then no professional could have solved that problem without adding auxillary heat either.
It could be very comforting, (but disappointing) however, to truly know that you can't get done what you would like to do before you spring the big bucks on materials and equipment that can't be returned if you were to guess wrongly.
Knowledge is power and I like to be empowered.
http://radiantmax.com/
Chauncey, I don't know much about heating systems but I ran into a guy selling systems at a builders show. RadiantMax will ship a manifold that you screw onto a wall. Then all you do is plug in the tubes. It looked so simple, I would try it and I can't do a lick of plumbing.
blue
Designing and installing the system isn't rocket science that a lot of people make it out to be.The link Blueeyeddevil pointed out is fine or http://www.radiantec.com can help you out, geared also for the diy'er. The only thing I will stress to you for a good operating system that won't need TWEAKING is keep all the loops the same length, +/- 5 feet. And a real time saver if you are building the home yourself and using a staple up method, drill the holes before you put down the plywood down from on top. Good luck.David <!----><!---->
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This book is well worth buying. Joe H
http://cgi.ebay.com/5th-Edition-WIRSBO-COMPLETE-DESIGN-ASSISTANCE-MANUAL_W0QQitemZ6050689545QQcategoryZ42133QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I ordered the book (modern hydronic heating) this morning. Your advice made the decision a lot easier. I hadn't considered the fact that the heat source (boiler) wouldn't be available to me, it's never been mentioned in all my conversations with distributors. Also the input on keeping the tubes the same length makes a lot of sense. Does the book have these kinds of tidbits. Anyway, thanks a lot!!
You Can Do It!!! I recently upgraded my entire radiant system myself...new modulating / condensing boiler with an attached hot water tank, 3 zones, repipe all existing radiators, etc. I replaced an old 1947 GE boiler... the hardest part was breaking the old cast iron core apart with a sledge hammer so I could get it out of the basement. I purchased my boiler, tank, and most components from radiantheatproducts.com. The guys there are very DIY oriented and were super helpful. I really tried to do my homework so I wouldn't have to bug them to much with design questions. Read everything you can from Siggy and spend some time at "the wall". I probably spent 50 - 60 hours researching and planning, but the install went smoothly, and I ended up spending less than $6,000.00 on a project where the cheapest bid I got was $17,000.00 Somehow the plumbers around here get to bill out at about twice the rate I do ($55 an hour when I do T & M). I'm sorry if I offend any plumbers out there, but it's not rocket science. I did have to hire a gas fitter to come and move my gas line to the new setup ($350 for an hour and a half of work). After looking at my system he asked if I was a pipe fitter...his supervisor was in the area and stopped by and told me to call him if I ever needed a job. I was grateful for the complements, and it really made me feel good after all my hard work and planning. Here's a couple pics I took right after I finished...
from your attachments it looks as if you only have one zone hooked up,why? Or am I wrong. Did you do your own heat loss figures, if so ,who's software program? You do neat, clean work. More questions will wait till I get the book. Thanks for the input.
I just ran across the article that John Siegenthaler wrote for F.H.B. issue #105, Nov. 1996 pp. 58-63. Might be worth a read to get the adrenaline flowing before The Book arrives! (if you have access.) Mr Siegenthaler's clear style of writing includes excellent info. such as pricing (current as of the time), tips & good practises, as well as pictorals & photos.
Yes Mr. Hefner, I do read the articles AND enjoy the PHOTOS as well!
The other 2 zones were for new addition areas on the house (upstairs, 4-season porch) that I still had some mucking around to do in. It was late october in minnesota so I just hooked up the main floor loop so we would have some heat. There are a lot a' ways to skin a cat, but I've been extremely happy with the set up. I tried to do some apples to apples comps to last years gas bill (looking at therms of gas use relative to heating degree days), and we cut our gas use almost in half. I found myself going down into the basement alot and checking things like outside temp. readings vs. set point temps, and temp difference between outgoing and return water. Gosh darn if it doesn't work as advertised! You can really feel the primary / secondary piping work by holding the pipes above and below the closely spaced tees. Here's a pic of what we replaced...
I installed my own system that I purchased through radiantdirect.com and I am very pleased with the way it has been working (2 years). I have three zones, two are in slab (one loop each)on ground floor and the third is staple up (three loops) for the entire top floor. The boiler is an NTI Trinity combi, and seems really good after some initial electronic problems.
I will add that I live in California and heating is more a convenience than anything else. If I were in a different region I might consider professional design.
Another thing I will add is that my boiler (purchased on internet) is not used in this area and I was unable to find anyone familiar with it, making an ordeal out of a minor problem. Given the choice I would use one popular with installers in your area.
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
A quick question about zoning.All of the manifolds I have seen on the US market are manually operated valve-type affairs. Is such a thing available as a programmable zone controller that is mounted on the wall in the room affected, like an HVAC thermostat, which would control the flow at the manifold using servos or something such.What I mean is that I would like to be able to micromanage my zones, automatically. (I realize this is not advisable with a slow-response system like an installation in cement, but I would think that something with fast response like Warmboard might work out for this.
Tekmar controls.
http://www.tekmarcontrols.com/products.html
I'm sure someone will give a solid recommendation for the zone valves. I don't have a favorite other than Honeywell. Taco makes some too but I believe those are slow acting.
"Let's get crack-a-lackin" --- Adam Carolla
That looks like the perfect answer.
I have really tried to avoid even adjusting the thermostat this year. I installed an outdoor sensor that is supposed to adjust for climate changes and it seemed to make a difference.
If it seemed a little warm, we just opened some windows in the afternoon. Once or twice during warm spells, I did override the thermostats and turned off the system. Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
The advantage you have over the pros is that you only have to learn about one type of system- yours!
Pros have to be able to handle anything that comes at them.
This is not to say there are not plenty of complexities. It will be costly in terms of your labor to figure it all out. Sometimes DIY does not pay.
I am a knowledgeble DIY and I installed a 4 zone w/Domestic HW heating system run by a Munchkin boiler. I sweated alot of the details but was determined to do it myself. It has been running flawlessly for 2 years. I also bought the Siegenthaler book. It was a tough read and almost made things worse for me because of the overload of detailed info. It was a good learning experience and I especially got alot out of the chapter on valves. I actually called the guy up from the phone no. in the text and he answered the phone. I had some specific questions about unwanted heat convection into inactive zones, which was one of my biggest concerns. He was very helpful and accessible.
The most important thing of all is I contacted Munchkin and their sales rep was a godsend. He helped me design and trouble shoot the whole system, provided me with schematics and materials lists.
There are also some good forums for Hydronics. I can't remember them but you could google it. Basically I know how to sweat pipes, the rest I educated myself with the help of some very dedicated individuals I contacted through cyberspace.
good luck, at least your starting in April!
Ok, if you see my signature you'll know my bias here right off the bat, so I'm not going to dwell on it.
I will tell you that doing the work of a radiant install is not complicated, but there are "gotchas" that can make you hate your system, make it less efficient than it could be, make you spend more money for an inferior system... all kinds of stuff.
I get calls all the time from people who put in loops that were too long to heat properly, installed pipe too wide to keep the floors evenly heated in all kinds of installation methods (some promoted by major radiant sites online), or who spent money unwisely on items that are for all practical purposes useless, such as radiant barrier insulation under slabs (one word of advice... anyone promoting this understands nothing about heat transfer. period). Some problems can be fixed with a retrofit of hardware. Some require demolition. Some problems are not discovered until the unforeseen happens... say, a freeze up... and then it's far, far too late.
I've also seen a lot of decent wholly DIY'ed systems. I've seen some that were total overkill.
Seigenthaler's book is excellent, and it can help you figure out when you're getting snowballed by "pros" or other radiant sites out there which are CHOCK FULL of BAD IDEAS.
But it does not make you a radiant designer. If you're doing a simple, small system... preferably things like garages or shops... then there are only so many things you could do wrong. Go for it.
You can go for it on a home too.. but then the risk factor elevates dramatically. And, you will in all liklihood get a yugo when you might have gotten a mercedes for not much more money at all. Even a cheap radiant system isn't cheap.
A heat load calculation is necessary. If you don't know what to do with the numbers, then get someone who does.
Do NOT install your own boiler. That is NOT an appropriate place for sweat equity. The rest of the system.. fine. the boiler, no. anyone who sells you a boiler online does not have your best interest at heart. You don't have replacement parts. You don't have the equipment to verify its operation is safe and efficient. just don't do it. Find out what the locals use within the category of heat source you need, and stick with what they know, can service, and will stand by.
I don't mean to sound doomy and gloomy, but putting together the hardware for your system is not the hard part. The hard part is figuring out what you should be installing and why.
At least I can leave you with this: you can do far better than a typical round thermostat for not much more money, outdoor reset is truly fantastic, and never, ever install pipe at larger than 12" o.c. in a residential application. Pex expands, plan for it, or use PEX-AL-PEX. Never install an open freshwater heating system. And, best of luck :D
There are several forums around that are good to post questions on... use them, if you do decide to go on your own entirely, for reality checks. Radnet and The Wall are two.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Many thanks to all of you that have responded to my queries on hydronic heating. As I mentioned before, I ordered the book and will delay making a design decision until I've had a chance to read it. The comments from SHADY & NRTBOB were especially helpful, the forums mentioned have already been bookmarked. Again, THANKS
Hi Rob,Can you explain why radiant barrier insulation isn't of any use under a slab? I haven't heard that before.Thanks,
Todd
In practical terms, they have been tested in more than one study in recent years to perform at roughly an R1.5 and yes, that decimal point is in the right place. That is admittedly significantly better than not insulating, but it is nowhere near equivalent to the 2" rigid foam standard. Now... you don't always need 2" of rigid foam under the whole slab. But usually it's a good idea.In terms of heat transfer, radiant transfer is the transmission of heat through space. Radiant barriers work by reflecting that heat (as long as they are clean), just like light.Trick is.. you have no radiant transfer under a slab. The insulation is in direct contact with the slab and the ground. That's conduction, not radiation, and as such, a radiant barrier is nearly useless at stopping it. They are fond of saying that "70% of heat loss in a home is radiant", which might even be true... but NOT under a slab.Basically, there is nothing on the market that is "equivalent" to 2" of rigid foam under a slab, period. Whether you need 2" or not is debatable for some projects, but that is the fact of the matter right there, all marketing claims to the contrary or not.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Thanks, Rob, makes sense. I had in my mind a barrier over substantial foam. While I've got you, what are the kind of gotchas that come up with homeowners putting in their own boilers? I'm trying to decide whether to put my own in. I have a solid engineering background with lots of fluid flow and heat transfer experience, so the math isn't too daunting. Done lots of plumbing (water and gas) too, but haven't installed too many circulators or mixing valves. If I (or any unlicensed person) were to put in, for example, a Munchkin boiler, is there no way to get replacement parts? Is the warranty definitely invalid?
Warranty is definitely invalid on almost all boilers not installed by licensed plumbers, and HTP generally won't even speak to you if you aren't a pro. You can't get the Vision 1 package for the munchkin.. which is HIGHLY, HIGHLY recommended... unless you are a vision certified installer.. even being a pro isn't enough.Basic gotchas include blowing up your house and dying of carbon monoxide poisoning. If you avoid that, then getting replacement parts is a serious PITA. Especially if you need them quickly. Especially with modulating boilers, they are finicky. Even pros often make mistakes that make them loud, fail prematurely, run inefficiently, you name it. But at least then they are on the hook to fix it, not you.Basically, all the major labor is in the tubing installs and perhaps the copper work in the mech room. Don't be pennywise and pound foolish; spend the money where you get the true value. Professional equipment and know-how and connections to the supply chain are worth something when it comes to boiler installs. Buying the equipment to do it right is more expensive than hiring someone to do it.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
I installed my own munchkin, WITH vision 1 controls. Hmmm, how did that happen? My set points rise and fall with changes in outdoor temps perfectly according to the heat curve I set. The system is also dead quiet. I'm almost always running a perfect 20 degree temp drop from outgoing to return water. It's NOT that hard. I'm not trying to say it's a quick weekend project, or you won't spend alot of time on research and planning, but it is reasonable to think you can do it yourself. You have to be able to figure out exactly what you need to know, and know how to go about learning what you don't know. I've interviewed alot of "proffesionals" to use as subs on various projects over time, and I've found that what matters most is caring about doing a job right. A guy can be a "pro" and have 20 years experience, but if it's been 20 years of crappy work, so what? You are asking the right questions and consulting the right resources so far...keep at it.
This brings up another question that refers to an earlier. Soil is very dry,so much so, that we could not go with a heat pump. There is a french drain around perimeter of walk-out basement. In four years there has never been a drop of water come out of that drain. In my situation, is there a more cost effective way to insulate the slab than 2" of foam?
assuming you are not on clay or rock, you could probably use 1" under the slab and 2" around the vertical perimeter. the tarp products would provide a basic thermal break which may be adequate, but I doubt that you'd find them cheaper than 1" of foam.. at least, not by much. Perhaps I'm wrong though.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com
Well, for starters, you snowed someone to get that control, so I wouldn't share who with anyone or they may lose their distributorship or job. HTP has a pretty strict policy there last I knew. And also as far as I know, you now have no warranty and no guaranteed supply line for replacement parts. You might overcome the parts hurdle as well, but you're now open to headaches that could have been avoided. What are you going to do if something fails? I'm not saying it's not POSSIBLE to install your own boiler. I'm saying it's not a good idea. Maybe you did a great job.. doesn't change the fact if you missed one critical detail you could have wrecked the boiler (wasting thousands of dollars in the process), hurt yourself, burned down your house, lost significant efficiency or gotten sick. All these things happen. You pay your house insurance, right? Consider a researched pro installation a one shot insurance policy that pays off for the life of the boiler.There are bad pros out there, no doubt. I get asked to clean up their messes just like bad DIY installs too. So educate yourself so you know what questions to ask and maybe even verify the work is correct, but leave combustion appliances to a pro that passes muster. I don't care how well educated a DIY'er you are, "knowing what you don't know" is not a straightforward process that can be easily tackled with confidence. Some figure it out, and some don't. And it's NOT HARD to miss the small details. MFGs lit doesn't cover everything, either. Every unit has its idiosyncracies. At what point do you stop and say "ok, I know exactly everything I need to know about this"?Why spend thousands on a "top flight" heating system, just to roll the dice? For what it's worth, I don't sell boilers (specifically because of this issue) and I don't install them. I have absolutely nothing to gain and in fact miss out on quite a signifcant revenue stream by not selling boilers. But I do this because I've seen too many screw ups to enable it in good concience, and the stakes are too high. I've had clients ignore and lie to me too and do their own boiler installs and make it through just fine. That still does not make it a good idea.Depends on what level of risk you're comfortable with I suppose. When I'm dealing with a client's home and family, personally my acceptable level of risk plummets. You're probably not going to hurt anyone pounding nails or sweating copper. Setting gas on fire in your house is a slightly more serious matter.-------------------------------------
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
Radiant Design, Consultation, Parts Supply
http://www.NRTradiant.com