Hello all. I am a home owner building my first home with a builder. Our house is in the drywall stage, however i think my builder has created some problems.
the drywall was hung (ceilings and walls) before the basement floor was poured (this happened in early December in a cold climate). there was a lot of moisture in the house as a result; the furnace wasn’t hooked up until last week. Also, the house was only tyvaked; no siding as of yet. there is blown in insulation in the walls.
Some of the ceiling now is slightly drooping between where it is attached to the joists, and I can see faint brownish lines where the studs are behind the 2nd floor wall pieces(result of moisture).
My questions are:
1. Do I have to be concerned about mold/mildew in the walls?
2. Is this a common occurence?
3. Any potential fixes?
Any input would be appreciated.
thanx
OY5
Replies
If you have moisture problems in the walls it would have shown up on the windows first.
Did you have water running off the windows?
yes, there was water on the windows. Before the furnace was running, the house was heated with a pot heater running off of the propane tank. Once the furnace was hooked up, the water on the windows went away, and the air in the house is definately dry.
My concern is the damage already done, if any.
Are you heating this house? If they used a portable heater before hooking up the furnace, that would also contribute moisture to the inside.
There's a combination of events here that is contributing to your problem. I'm assuming you're heating it, otherwise how can he finish off the drywall? So you've got framing that's drying out, drywall mud and concrete all contributing to moisture in the house. It gets past the drywall, hits the vapor barrier and soaks the drywall. Or if no VB, it hits the plywood and condenses there
What about the vapor barriers? Did they install on walls and ceilings or what?
Where is it located?
Edited 1/4/2005 7:00 pm ET by Mad Dog
house is located in michigan, no vapor barrier (blown in insulation), house is now being heated conventionally (via a furnace).
mad dog,
I'm most concerned about the damge that was done; once drywall get's as moist as it was, is there any lasting effect? does the fact that I have blown in insulation(with no vapor barrier) make the situation better or worse?
Have you spoken with your builder about this problem? If so, what has he said about the situation?What kind of warranty is he offering on the drywall?Do you have any permanent siding on the house at this time?
Drywall can take some water and it can be fine when dried back out . With no vapor barrier the furnace will suck the moisture out of the walls . The ceiling may be another thing . I used to spray 50 gallons of water in texture per 1,000 sq ft using coarse texture. I used to swag some drywall that didnt meet spans. I learned quickly what a ceiling would take and learned to check spans before I sold coarse texture. Another factor is insulation thats resting on the drywall ceiling when it gets wet . Thats a bad thing. With weight on the drywall and the drywall wet for an extended period , spells trouble. Whenever I sprayed texture the building was fully opened and fans running to relieve moisture as quickly as possible. The propane heater and the concrete worked against you. I learned a long time ago to pull that type of heat .
Tim Mooney
As others have said, the drywall may or may not be okay over time depending on how much damage has been done. But what about all that excess moisture? What is your mold situation? It doesn't take too long. Is the cellulose wet ?
oy, I have a few questions for you,
1. are you in a climatic area where a 6 mil vapor barrier is used, or not?
2. is the gyproc taped?
3. what is the spacing on the ceiling joists (trusses?) and what thickness of gyproc was used.
It sounds like you might have a moisture problem at this time, I would open a few windows and pour the heat to it and see how well things dry out. Having no heat on the house would absorb dampness more so if you are in a cool humid environment, the concrete probably didn't help either.
Some of the ceiling now is slightly drooping between where it is attached to the joists, and I can see faint brownish lines where the studs are behind the 2nd floor wall pieces(result of moisture).
This does not sound good. Oy-vey! (Sorry, couldn't resist; had to get that in there before Andy C....)
I'd suggest you lay a straight-edge against the ceiling to quantify the droop in the gyprock; if it's a quarter of an inch average or more, it will very likely show once finished unless the builder basically plasters the entire ceiling with compound to fair it flat again. Not something he is likely to want to do....
As for the brownish lines burning through at studs, is this at every stud or just one or two? Bleed-through like that indicates to my mind that the gyprock has been seriously compromised by moisture and that this is a tear-out. There could be other explanations for those lines, but from the information you have posted so far, none would seem to be the most likely cause.
Dinosaur
'Y-a-tu de la justice dans ce maudit monde?
All new houses have some excessive moisture as part of the process. Yours is in the extreme because the buiolder failed to plan or circumstances conspired angainst him.
The lack of VB is one that will land you a lot of various opinions. Mine is that there should be a VB on the inside of the studs in your climate, but in your case, it might be better for you to have it goen since the moisture in the walls can now dry to the inside, IF you keep windows open enough to vent the water out on the air.
The cieling? It should be 5/8" sheet rock if the framing is 24"OC, or 1/2" OK if framed at 16" oc.
RH should get down and walls dry before painting. Taht may cover the wall telegraphing.
I am not entirely willing to weigh in against the builder though, without knowing whether you were pushing him on schedule or other situations beuyond his control entered in here. It doesn't sound liek he focused entirely on doing the best job though.
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Just curious - what kind of insulation was blown in the walls? Fiberglass or cellulose or something else? If cells, was it blow in dry behind a net or applied wet?
Although not the best situation in the world, I think your sheetrock will be OK if the house is dried out well ASAP, and definitely before painting (another moisture producing activity). Whatever sagging you have in the rock though is there to stay. Is it tolerable? That's for you to decide. I'd crank up the furnace. Those portable propane or kerosene heaters will only produce more moisture, so keep away from those.
OH - and I'd tell the builder to get the siding on... YESTERDAY!
Based on your description, you might well have a mold problem - if the drywall got wet enough to sag, it possibly got wet enough to support mold growth.
Have a few sections of drywall cut out so you can see what's going on behind it. Be suire to get at least on area where the studs are telegraphing through
It is entirely possible there is mold growth on the back but not on the front.
Assuming there is a problem, give careful thought as to how it will be resolved - there is a long way to go on the house and a pizzed off builder has a lot of options.
I don't know if this is possible, but consider getting a mediator involved now: before you know if there is a problem. Mediators are trained to look for win-win" solutions. As much as possible, work with your builder.
Also consider getting a lawyer involved, too, to advise you - not to lead the way. Try to get a lawyer who is primarily business deal oriented and not litigation oriented - same "win-win" approach. But you want to be sure you know what the course looks like before you tee up.
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Those faint brownish lines are most likely dirt that collects where moisture condenses the most, where the framing is. I've seen that often enough. Once you get your RH corrected and the construction dust cleaned up it will stop
The sagging drywall is a result of poor building practice. The framing is over spanned for the drywall or the drywall is undersized for the span. Take your pick
I could be wrong but I've never seen drywall sag when spanned correctly without getting soaking wet. I've even seen drywall get wet from a roof leak and still not sag
"I could be wrong but I've never seen drywall sag when spanned correctly without getting soaking wet. I've even seen drywall get wet from a roof leak and still not sag"
Good post . Correct statements above .
Add something ;
Have you ever seen drywall wet over an extended period of time ?
I have . Granted its not normal at all , but it is in this case.
Edit ; If theres emamel on the ceiling it will sag with a roof leak and then come down if the rain doesnt stop anytime too soon. [G]
Tim Mooney
Edited 1/6/2005 5:55 pm ET by Tim Mooney
It sounds like you took on some moisture . I'm surprized that there is no vapor barrier . Turning on the heat real good should solve most of your problems . But I think you should have the ceilings replaced.
Mike- Foxboro, Mass.
1. Do I have to be concerned about mold/mildew in the walls?
Mold spores are everywhere. However, most usually need a continuous source of moisture for them to thrive. Take away the moisture, the mold doesn't spread. If the house is sided and the furnace hooked up, your house, if properly detailed, will dry and any mold/mildew problems shouldn't be problems later on.
2. Is this a common occurence?
No. I don't know of anyone who hangs sheetrock before having the shell weather-tight. I've never supported the idea of using a propane heater to heat a house in the winter during the taping/mudding stages...the heater pumps out gallons of moisture and if using an easysand, drying type of mud, it seems to create not-so-great joints.
Slabs are sometimes poured well into construction...but I'd have opened the basement windows for a few days after the pour to allow moisture to escape.
3. Any potential fixes?
Dry the house out. Wipe the walls down, then prime and paint. The shadowing on the studs should not reappear as long as the interior humidity levels are kept in check.
Nothing will make the drywall sag go away. Once it sags, there it is.
Blown in cellulose handles moisture better than blown in fiberglass. If you have blown in FG, i'd be concerned that if the FG became saturated, it might have settled wthin the walls. Dense-packed cells won't settle, and cells can absorb, hold, and disburse moisture when humidity levels decrease.
If you have blown in FG or cellulose insulation that wase not dense-packed, you might want to consider having a blower door test to see how tight the house is. Or you might want to have a thermal scan of the house done to see if excessive heat loss is coming from the upper portions of the stud bays, which could possibly indicate that the insulation has settled in the wall stud bays.
No VB indicates that you probably have blown in cells, as I can't see why someone wouldn't install a vapor barrier if using blown in FG. Actually, I can't see why someone would use FG in the first place...but that's anbother thread. If the cells have settled, you've lost your vapor barrier, your air infiltratiojn barrier, your sound attenuation barrier, your radiant barrier, your insulation from winter cold and summer heat.
If settling has occured, you can "top off" the bays with more insulation, and it's better to do it soner in the construction prcess than later.
In talking to your builder...what ideas/solutions is he offering?
How is it that a propane heater adds to the moisture load in the house? Is H20 a by-product of propane combustion, unlike natural gas?
>>How is it that a propane heater adds to the moisture load in the house? Is H20 a by-product of propane combustion, unlike natural gas?Actually they are the same: they both have significant amounts of water oin the combustion gases.
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So, I guess the reason the furnace dries the house is that the moisture in the exhaust gases is vented outside, whereas the propane heater vents the humid combustion gases into the living space?
>> the furnace dries the houseFurnaces heat the dry cold air that comes into the house to replace the warm air finding it's way out.And in heating the air changes it's relative humidity.But the furnace doesn't take any moisture out of the air.H2O is a by product of burning any carbon based fule.
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Just for the record, that would be "burning any Hydrocarbon based fuel", no....
If there is visible mold growth on the drywall, even the back side, get rid of the drywall.That's what the experts say, at least.http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/html/epi/moldrpt1.htmlhttp://www.epa.gov/iaq/molds/index.htmlhttp://www.buildingscience.com/resources/mold/default.htmhttp://www.cdc.gov/nceh/airpollution/mold/moldfacts.htm
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