Here is the problem we are having in our NEW log home.
1) Windows have moisture/water beading up on the bottom of the glass pane throughout the house. ..on bottom inch… Windows are of course NEW Semco crank outs.
The water seems to bead up on the wood pane also and we have actually found some mold growing! To protect the frame I did use polyurathane on the wood…
Here is our specs
1) House is log. Logs have been dried for 2 years. ALL the seams of the logs have been caulked from the outside. GOOD seal
2)Poured cement basement dried for 1 1/2 year.
3)Roof….29″heel truss,plastic on the inside ceiling holding 3 1/2″ fiberglass with 15″ of blown celluous above that w/ soffet venting.
4) Open concept house.
5) Basement has radiant infloor heating hooked up to WOODBOILER inside the basement.
We just dont understand WHY there is soooo much water on the windows. We have tried cracking the windows to allow some ventalation..seemed to help for a while until it got really cold (6 degrees) AND why should we have to crack the windows to get rid of the condensation???
ANY ANY help or suggestions as to what or why this is happening would be greatly appreciated
Stac
Replies
What's your relative humidity in there? Dew point happens.
Apparently you didn't install an air system for fresh air changes. Something to consider.
PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Some of this comes from the still pretty recent new construction moisture, but probably most from just not having enough ventilation. You may need to bite the bullet and install an HRV or ERV system. Google on HRV or ERV and you'll get a good education.
You don't say what your RH is but most people like it more humid than is good for a house to be.
You live and breathe. That creates moisture.
You have plastic aboe. So the moisture cannot escape.
The logs are only two years old. my green logs were 6x8 and took five years to dry thoroughly. I assume yours are still drying too.
This is a common problem in new homes.
six degrees is not cold, IMO
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Just curious--How big is this house? How many occupants?
This is still a new home, and presumably well-sealed. It's producing a lot of moisture from the logs and concrete, especially with the in-floor heat. The interior framing produces a lot of moisture too, as does drywall. Do you have a heat recovery ventillator system?
I'm presuming the windows are reasonably well insulated, and the hydronic heat loop isn't leaking. And you should of course use the vent fan when showering, have dryer exhaust run outside, etc.
Thanks for the reply guys..
To answer some of your questions...
I do not know the relative humidty? I guess we will have to get a humidty gauge for a starting point.
The house is 30X40, the only room that is "so called" enclosed is the bathroom..in which there is a exhaust fan in it. There are only two occupants
We do NOT have a heat recovery system. I guess we just never heard of a log home with this system. I am also assuming the hydronic heating loop is NOT leaking since the same amount of water pressure is still in the system since its been running.
I agree..six degrees is not that cold..however, this is when the windows start to ice up. It seems I have been in other homes that are sealed just as tight or tighter and they have the same infloor heating system with no condensation on the windows...
I am going today to ask about there ventalition/heat exhange sysytem.
Another log builder stated it may take uo to five years for the logs to dry...maybe this is contributing to the problem.
MY only concern is I really dont want my windows to rot out...I checked all other places (up in the trusses..above the insulation) and there was no condensation.
My home is a very simple house...I did all the work myself..do you think a heat exhanger really is necassary? Is there a easier way to get some fresh air in here without all that duct work ect and cost?????
thanks again!!!
I've seen this same thing occur in a home that was built (stick frame) 5 or 6 years ago. This home has insulated window treatments and the condensation occurred when they were completely closed. We opened them a little (an inch or two) and the condensation seems to have been reduced. Not sure if it's completely gone. What do you have for window treatments,if any?
"I am also assuming the hydronic heating loop is NOT leaking since the same amount of water pressure is still in the system since its been running."wrong assumption, tho in my experience it is not common for such a new system to leak except right at the end copnnection which you can see easily.But every such system I have had installed had a water make up supply off a backflow preventor on the main line and going to the pressure tank for the hydronic system, so looking at the pr3ssure value would not tell you if it has leaked ot not.I don't have an opinion on the recovery systems, but they are increasingly necessary in tighter homes.I cannot tell you how many times here at BT and sitting in a window suppliers office on cold days, or listening to home improvement radio shows that this Q comes up - always with first few cold weather days and almost always in new homes. The condensation will always happen first at thewindows because the galss is always the coolest part of a normal house. So consider it a warning device of sorts.
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My home is a very simple house...I did all the work myself..do you think a heat exhanger really is necassary? Is there a easier way to get some fresh air in here without all that duct work ect and cost?????
Everybody needs fresh air. If your house isn't leaky enough, you need an air system if you don't want to live with open windows. For your extremely simple, and small, plan there's no reason for much of any ductwork and certainly no reason for high cost.
I assembled my own air-to-air heat exchanger for under $100, turned out to be upwards of 90% efficient. Lives over my bathroom, in a plan similar to yours. We've got 20k cu ft to ventilate. Visitors often notice our air quality.
There's gonna be more than window rot going on. What's your health worth?
First, measure that relative humidity. Then you decide where to go.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Yeah, as RR says, you need to achieve some degree of airflow across the windows. Curtains may seem like a good idea, but they make the condensation problem worse. In really bad cases you may need to set up a fan to blow air across the window.Since this is in part a transient problem, find some sort of furniture oil or wax that seems compatible with the endangered wood finishes and keep them oiled up to shed water better.You can always exchange air by opening a window or door, of course. But probably the best solution that doesn't require an investment is to keep the bathroom fan going most of the time, or at least for several hours a day, and crack open a window at the opposite corner of the house.BTW, you say you have a wood burner IN YOUR BASEMENT? If so, does it have some sort of external air supply, or is it drawing air from the house.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
it got down to -10 last nite...put a fan blowing on the living rm windows..no moisture this morning...i also have a ceiling fan running in the living rm pulling the air upwards..but this has not really seemed to help with moisture on the windows..
left one window cracked in the rec rm area..this window also didn't have any moisture..left the bathrm exhaust fan on all nite,,bathrm window had heavy frost about 2" up from the bottom on glass..all other windows in house also had same heavy frost.. as soon as it got lite out and the temp rose to about 10 above, the frost and moisture left the windows..earlier this winter the moisture would stay on with the temp outside below 20....don't know if this means anything, just trying to observe everything...and yes the woodboiler is just using the inside air to burn the wood....the water operating the in floor system had to be put in manually by hooking up a hose to my well water supply and filled the boiler system to full with about 10lbs pressure..after getting all the air out, the hose was disconnected ,so i'm assuming again that if water was leaking out somewhere, the pressure and water would have dropped, because there is nothing to replenish it..right? remember everbody, iv'e never built anything before...just a guy that said screw it, i can do this on my own,(and my wife)...with asking alot of questions and common sense to figure it out...i also had to pass all the state building inspection...go figure! except they don't tell you about stuff like this that is probably more important than alot of the stuff i had to worry about...thanks again for all the input.
How is the woodburner supplied with air? Is there an outside "makeup air" supply duct near it?You don't want to create a vacuum in the house, but by manipulating air sources for your wood burner you may be able to get it to draw enough air through the house to control the humidity.I hope you have a CO detector.Get that humidity meter (hygrometer) and find out what the humditiy is, several places in the home. You generally don't want humidity above 20-25% when temps may dip to zero outside.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
"the woodboiler is just using the inside air to burn the wood.."That one point tells a lot! It has to have makeup air from someplace and your house does not manufacture air.So the draft causes replacement air to be sucked in from whatever is your wealest point in the exterior envelope. In time with this being a log home, that air will come through the walls and logs, but for now, the windows are the weak link, even when closed, So they are the coldest points in the house, and that is where the condensation occours. A recovery system that is designed to give you a positive pressure in the house will eliminate this problem.
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Just so you guys can visualize what im talking about here are some pictures
The window one shows the condensation which accumlates..the window has a film on it from stainig so disregard the cloudiness...
the other one is the inside of my house and the plastic over the insulation and on the ends...
the one is the boiler unit in my basement
thanks again
As others in this thread have been getting at to some degree or another, there's a much bigger issue here than the annoyance of condensation on your windows or concern for your windows rotting out: Your health. The condensate on the windows truly is a warning sign here. Your house is actually too well sealed. You're not getting any infiltration with all the plastic and caulk, and you haven't provided any means for ventilation.You're a mammal, constantly perspiring and respiring, constantly giving off moisture and heat, which is now trapped in your home. Generally humidity in excess of 60 percent will not only make interiors uncomfortable, but will lead to indoor air-quality problems. You shouldn't be worried about mold on your windows, you should be worried about the mold that could grow everywhere that you could end up breathing in.In addition to moisture, you're going to have a buildup of pollutants. You could be slowly suffocating on carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide. Have you provided and air intake for your wood-burner? Or is it combusting all the oxygen in the room that you need to breathe?A quick look at an ASHRAE handout suggests you should be adding fresh outdoor air at a rate of around 5 cubic feet per minute per occupant. That's not a number to be used in isolation, particularly since your wood stove isn't factored in, nor the possibility that you may be a smoker, but it does give some immediate idea of what you need for ventilation just to be healthy and safe.
what i did for now is put four, 4" holes in the basement walls spaced thru out,put a piece of 4" pipe thru to outside,for incoming fresh air...then on the gable ends up near the ceiling peak, put the same at each end of the house. i feel the fresh air coming in down in the basement and the air being pushed out up on the gable ends...may be crude but i think it will work...what do you think...at least i have some fresh air,so maybe i won't die!!!! should be interesting to see if this will help with the window moisture.
Crude, but should be effective. May be more than you need. Make sure this doesn't cause basement plumbing to freeze.
Half of the harm that is done in this world is due to people who want to feel important. They don't mean to do harm but the harm does not interest them. --T.S. Eliot
I have an equally crude system. The pet door is 12' away from the basement wood stove. It manages to open itself or to stay open a crack when the stove is humping at full tilt!;)
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may take up to five years for the logs to dry
That is optimistic.
Own home has 21 ea 15 to 30 in dia logs. Some of those took up to 15 (fifteen) years to fully dry as evidenced by cracking (gunshot in the night type cracking).
Edit PS: our low tech solution to water on window sills was to put a paper towel there overnight. Like said before, dew point is dew point. There are always triple pane windows also.
Edited 1/21/2007 8:54 am ET by junkhound
got up this morning after installing my crude fresh air return...first thing both my wife and i noticed was the presence of fresh air!! we both cannot believe the diff... next i checked all the windows and no moisture,just a little 1/8 in the bathrm...and yess absolutly we use the exhaust fan every time someone enters the bathrm
We dont have an exhaust fan in the kitchen..but this idea is something that will be coming in the future.
My basement walls have a blacktop type waterproofing "spray on" coat on the exterior. Underneth the slap there is two inches of stryofoam. I dont remember them putting down any plastic???
As for the log suppliers..we actually jsut bought our logs from a couple "logger type" guys..so they are no help. However I did contact a friend who is in the woodworking business who said I could use his moistrue content guage..this might help (although he is 3 hours away from me..hopefully I can use it sooner than later.)
We are also thinking of buying a CO2 detector..after all of this why risk your health. We are VERY luckey this forum mentioned the risk of this. sometimes you jsut dont think of the obvious. I was just telling my wife the other day how "crumy" I had been feeling..a headache everyday..a "yuckey" feeling I couldnt explain??? I usually spend the MOST time in the house working in my basement everyday. She leaves and works and spends most of her time outside the house. She had no symptoms....In any case...Im glad I got the vents cut out last night!!
Also..one of the repsonders sent me some plans for a fresh air recovery system...which I will be working on shortly! (thanks for that info)
We do have a dehumidifer..usually always full...I am thinking this will change now with the new vents. We will see....
Thanks everybody for your input!! Plant the seed..and it will grow!:)
p.s pics of new vents (dont laugh to hard..at least were alive!!)
I just read thru the thread here and have a couple of points .
What heat source for cooking ? For hot water? for dryer?
Unvented gas ranges produce huge quantities of water as a by product of combustion (plus use up the available supply of fresh air). Water heater and dryer if not vented correctly do the same. Might want to check all that as well.
got up this morning after installing my crude fresh air return...first thing both my wife and i noticed was the presence of fresh air!! we both cannot believe the diff...
Congratulations, you're getting there.
You're welcome, the plans work. Unlikely you'll need that dehumidifier for winter operation. Fresh air changes are better and cheaper.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
It would be interesting to use the moisture content meter to check the log wood periodically, and in a methodical manner to see how the moisture content of the wood changes over time. You know - have a number of specific check locations, write results in a little note book, and record the indoor and outdoor RH at the time the readings are taken. Take readings every 3 months... Might be worth buying a moisture meter and a hygrometer since you stated you feel you have a moisture meter.
As far as, >> Underneth the slap there is two inches of stryofoam. I dont remember them putting down any plastic??? << Not to slam you bud, and admittedly everybody misses a few things, but there are things that builders do or require to be done almost as second nature that a DIY types might not think of... Your concrete guys should know that and do it automatically, but if they are working a builder who doesn't know what to require... It's an important detail that can't hardly be reversed later...
Most wood moisture readers will test the wood on the surface or immediately beneathe, so I doubt it will tell you much aboput conditions three inches below the surface
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Yeah, glad this is working out.Definitely get the CO alarm, maybe two. Certainly one downstairs, maybe halfway across the basement from the furnace (too close and you can get a false alarm while tending the furnace), and another upstairs, near sleeping quarters.Also get that hygrometer (or two). Most hardware store ones are pretty crummy (maybe someone can recommend an accurate one?), but they'll give you a rough idea of what's happening with the humidity, both in the winter and the summer.I wouldn't worry too much about the (possible) lack of plastic under the slab. The styrofoam will help a lot. More worrisome would be if you have potential groundwater problems and no tile system: How high is the building site relative to nearby land, and how well does the soil drain?
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
You have an interesting set of problems.
Definitely look into a kitchen fan. A quiet one will be used more and should be a must have item. We try to steer clients toward one with a remote fan so it's almost silent.
Bath fans seem to be used more if there's a timer and the fan is quiet.
I'd look closely at your foundation for additional water vapor making it's way up into the house.
What's under the slab is already there...or not, so it is what it is. Foam does block the majority of water vapor, but if the seams aren't sealed a great deal of moisture can make it into the slab and then into the air.
I don't know if it would work with your mechanical setup, but it is sometimes worthwhile to actually build a sealed room around the mechanicals to keep the makeup air from being drawn in from the house, and to keep the cold makeup air from having free rein. Frozen pipes are avoided by allowing enough air, but not too much, and careful monitoring of the temps. This approach usually works best in cold climates if the sealed room is surrounded by heated space so it's essentially partially heated.
Best of luck
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Update
Since cutting out the holes in the building itself there has been a HUGe improvement!
NOT one speck of moisture noted on ANY window!! I believe you guys heled solve the problem. We even notice the slight freshness to the house now!!
Follow up on the basement question. We had PROFESSIONAL cement workers lay the basement up. The basement was inspected. I am not sure what everyones own state inpsections entail, but in Wisconsin here its pretty tight. Due to our soil, weather ect...the experts in my area (including the inspector) recommended the styrofoam. There was no need for drain tiles in my situation.
I will include a pic of our home. Dry sandy soil..NO drainage problem
You aren't cooking with propane by any chance?This releases HUGE amounts of interior moisture. Much more than NG.
So do unvented gas log fireplaces.
Jeff
Edited 1/22/2007 1:43 pm ET by Jeff_Clarke
Seems to me that cooking with natural gas would release more moisture, since it's got a higher H to C ratio.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
Do you have a sump pit in the cellar floor? Is the site considered a wet one?
To check the water supply to the heating system close the fill valve.
Is the radiant tubes in the slab? How old is the slab floor? Did the slab have time to cure? I just got my HRV hooked up. I love the fresh air.
You need to identify moisture sources and mitigate them: Is there a kitchen exhaust fan that is vented to the exterior and is it used EVERY time a pot is put on the cook top, etc? Is the bathroom fan you mentioned used EVERY time someone takes a shower? Was a plastic vapor barrier put under the basement slab? How dry is your basement? Even if it seems pretty dry, moisture could be wicking through the concrete and evaporating into the living space. What kind of waterproofing was done to the exterior of the basement walls? Is there some way you could do a pressure test on the in slab radiant heat piping system to make sure there is not one or more pin hole leaks? Can you borrow a moisture content meter from someone and test the moisture content of the logs? What does your log supplier have to say about it? Anything? How dry is the wood you are burning? One would think that all that moisture would be going out the flue, but maybe not? I do know that when we used to heat with wood, the house seemed extremely dry...
Maybe you are still just suffering the effects of the new home materials drying out - especially the logs - maybe seek a online forum similar to this one, only one that focus on log homes. You said the logs were dried for 2 years or whatever, but in my mind air drying (assumed) is not very effective. I don't know much of anything about log homes though - I guess air drying is the only way? I wonder if you could go rent a super dehumidifier for about a month just to get the house extremely dry. We discussed these machines here some time ago - they are not actually called dehumidifiers. Maybe someone remembers? Or, maybe that might dry your logs too quickly?
All questions... No answers :-)