Are there any tricks to applying molding around windows when the walls are not flat where 2 of the moldings meet? The drywall and the mud where not applied evenly and 2 corner sections are not flat and one piece sticks out further than the other one. They are not even. I have tried to stick some card board under one section but the piece is hammered in the cardboard contracts and it hard to make them even.
thanks
Replies
Ah, the trimmer's bane. If the window jambs extend beyond the drywall, plane 'em flush. If the drywall is beyond the jambs, then it's a little harder. You have to think in three dimensions, and understand that because the wall and the window are not in plane with each other, you have to to do a slight compound miter.
To get your head around this idea, imagine that the wall is inches beyond the window. You'd have to miter the casing as you'd miter crown. Then, still in your mind, rotate the miter joint back toward flat. You'll see that the idea is to orient the casing on the miter saw bed in the same way as it will sit relative to the plane of the wall. I've done this using shims of matchbook-type cardboard to approximate the difference in height between the jamb and the drywall. Some corners take one thickness of cardboard, others take multiple thicknesses. Use the cardboard to shim up the back of the casing as you miter. Varying the number of shims will introduce the correct compound angle for each situation.
You can also trim the miters with a sharp block plane, thinking compound miter all the while. For other than small indescretions, however, the cardboard shims are faster. Or use a set of miter clamps and glue the casing together before installation. There's always the option of hammering the drywall flat before installing the casing, which you'll likely have to do anyway. Don't let the homeowner see you doing this -- It frightens them needlessly.
Andy
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Just to clarify things.Cardboard is corrigated board. Two faces of paper and corrigated paper spacer. What shipping boxes use and it will compress.What you are talking about is called paste board. Solid all paper. Used for things like matchbook covers, ceral boxes, and shoe boxes.
Did that touch a nerve, Bill? <G>
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
No nerve, but just wanted to try and limate confusion.He already said that he tried "cardboard" and it did not work.You suggested that he use "cardboard".
You're right, of course. Corrugated cardboard would be useless there. I generally used the stock from nail boxes, and never as shim material for other than making the cuts.
I thought he was trying to shim the casing as it was being nailed to the wall.
One other tip I just remembered is that you don't need to nail casing as frequently as a lot of folks think. I stop nailing the outside of the casing legs 16 in. or so from the corner so as not to affect the miter. Heads, I'd nail only to the window and to the casing legs (a little glue there, too, please). Nailing the casing head to the wall nails it to the header. The header is generally a chunk of green 2x10 that's got some shrinking left to do. Nail the casing head to it, and the header shrinking upwards will often pull the casing head with it and open up the miter.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I "locate" the trim (put it up where it's eventually going to be nailed), and then make a light pencil mark along the outboard edge (the side furthest from the window).
Then, using a utility knife and a painter's putty knife, I'll scrape out some of the mud that's too high. I usually keep about 3/4" away from my pencil line for starters. Keep putting the trim up there and see where the high stuff remains, and whittle it down. Sometimes, I'll even cut into the paper face of the rock. I don't worry about it -- it's only a cosmetic problem, and as long as you don't cut where the trim won't cover, you're fine.
In an extreme case, I was installing 1x4 with mitered corners around a scuttle opening. I ended up pre-assembling the casings on the workbench, where I used biscuits and glue at the miters. Once it was dry, I just nailed it in place. Since that time, I'll sometimes use biscuits at a corner if it's really bad.
Edited 12/22/2004 1:28 pm ET by ragnar
If it's not piece work a 36G 5" pc rt angle sander with vac hose and dress out the up to 5/8ths fat non alining walls windows sheetrock Fknxxx %#@ crap. Makes a pretty good finish plane to set on. But kinda slow and messy, but hey it's always easier to let the next guy make it work.
Most casings have a hollowed out back. This leaves a couple edges on the back that stand proud. You can shave these with a block plane. You can make up a small, +- 1/16" by taking some off the one that stands out thicker. If that isn't enough, you will have to shim.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
is this a wood or drywall returned jamb?
if wood extension jambs are being used ....
"sometimes" ... the best solution is to make the jambs the same thickness ... as the fattest one needed ... and then the casing will float over the recessed drywall and hopefully bend enough to touch the wall at the outside edge.
another option ... is like Andy said ... "adjust" the drywall by beating it into submission with your hammer.
Someone else also reminded us the backs of casings are dado'd out ... sometimes a ride thru the table saw for wider and deeper dado's will help span the problems areas ...
other times ... carving out the backside of the miters before glue up with a utility knife do the same trick.
For a drywall wrapped window with applied casing .... either adding to or subtracting from the casing thickness is the last and final resort.
first ... scrap the mud with a stout 4" knife or flat bar .... see just how much is excess built up mud ... lotsa times that'll be the quick fix.
if all the windows are screwed up all over the place ... prebuilding the jamb extensions ... to the widest needed ... the sills and the casing then setting the whole thing as one unit is usually the best option.
at worst a little caulking around the outter edges of the casing are needed ... and the painter would caulk that anyways ... makes the best out of the worst situation.
all the trim is even.
Jeff
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
quote from Andy.
Ah, the trimmer's bane. If the window jambs extend beyond the drywall, plane 'em flush. If the drywall is beyond the jambs, then it's a little harder. You have to think in three dimensions, and understand that because the wall and the window are not in plane with each other, you have to to do a slight compound miter.
What Andy said above makes perfect sense. Then you have the same problem with door trim and even crown and base molding. cabinet fillers etc.etc.
The ideal way to correct all this problems is to be able to trim flush with the drywall or build up the casing on doors and windows before you secure them in place,
Hold the door and the window with 2-3 tempo. nails. Scrive the over hand and your extension that you will need. And something like in the picture bellow can save you time and make the job a lot EZier.
You can trim the casing without removing the legs and you can make build up extensions from zero to 1/4" any length. And the cut it will be very smoothwith out the need to use any planers or sanders. This "trick" can be use on many-many applications. Doors-windows-steps-floors-cabinets-base molding-scrive molding-crown molding, cabinet fillers...
View Image View Image
To give you an idea, in the pictures above you don't have to screw the filler into the cabinet.Cit the filler 1/32 oversize on the width and few drops of glue.The whole wall becomes the clamp.
YCF Dino
If I realized the problem ahead of time I would have put some mud on the walls but the problem was not recognized until the molding was going up. I tried to trim the protruding wall but they used metal corner at the joints. The molding went around a sliding door.
Andy how do you figure the compound cut? This could get tricky because either the wall could go in or out. Most times with drywall the wall goes out. Do you make a test cut on some scrape?
Thanks to every on who helped
I have another question on this topic, why, when the window and the extension is made the exact thickness of the exterior sheathing, framing and gyproc does the gyproc stick out sometimes !/4" to 3/8"? It just doesn't make sense everything is fastened down properly I have even gone back outside and checked the windows to make sure they are flush up against the walls, the framing isn't sticking out and the gyproc seems to be tight. This 'sticking out' seems to be more on the corners than else where, my solution is to take my olfa and trim the gyproc back on an angle as far as possible. I like that 'crown mold' approach and will try it next time.
If I don't get an answers I will journey to the source of the Ganges River to seek enlightenment.
If I don't get an answers I will journey to the source of the Ganges River to seek enlightenment.
You're dealing with 4 types of materials (framing-sheething-drywall and window). and 3-4 installations.
The last one (usually the painter) and the one before that (the trimmer) have to make the final adjustments.(caulking and a heavy hammer)
If you install the window -drywall and trim by yourself, it pays to read my last post one more time. If you just install the trim, it pays to read all the above post's two more times.
The answer was given. I think I will go to Ganges River.
What is that?
YCF
YCFriend, are you asking what the Ganges River is and it's significance?
No. i was just trying to connect the River with the windows.
What is that / where you coming from.
Nothing important.
YCf dino
YCFriend, My question was why, when everything seems tight, does the gyproc stick out at the corners. The Ganges comment was that if this mystery was not solved I would seek the answer in an historically mystical place the head waters of a river.On thinking further about the gyproc sticking out I think it might be the 6 mil vapor barrier. We customarily leave the poly on the interior walls and let the gyprocers board right over it. The reason for this is so we don't have to mask off for the primer when it is sprayed. I have been slicing the poly along the length and widths of openings leaving a bit at the corners to keep the ploy in place. What I now think is happening is that the corner poly is not allowing the gyproc to sit tight against the wall causing it to stick out. I will change this method on my next house.
YCFriend, My question was why, when everything seems tight, does the gyproc stick out at the corners. The Ganges comment was that if this mystery was not solved I would seek the answer in an historically mystical place the head waters of a river.
Good luck, and stay away from mystical places. I have one and I can't get read of ..Me. You need more? The only real thing you will find in any mystical place is.. waste. Physical and mentally waste that is not even yours.
Enjoy the days.
YCF Dino
My question was why, when everything seems tight, does the gyproc stick out at the corners
It's because the rockers leave a butt joint right at the opening corner. Many rockers use the scrap above a window or door and then have two butt joints which do not have a beveled edge and then when you put the mud and tape on you get a bump. Some rockers even put the scrap below a window then you have 4 bumps. It always bothered me to see the casing curved in such instances and that's why quality rockers like myself don't do it, but guys like Buck think they save money until they try to have level casing ;-) Also leaving a butt above an opening is sure to crack!
why, when the window and the extension is made the exact thickness of the exterior sheathing, framing and gyproc does the gyproc stick out sometimes !/4" to 3/8"? It just doesn't make sense
Because then it's be easy ... and everyone would just do all this stuff themselves ...
and our kids would starve ... or ... at the very least ... not learn to swear as they grow up watching Dad make this stuff seem easy ....
Like someone else said ... U already have been given the answer ... no one said it's going to be easy ... just read them all ... print them out if ya have to ... then see which method fits/works best. Noting mystical ... don't let the wood outsmart ya ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
You "figure" the compound cut by seeing how many cardboard shims it takes to bring the wall and the jamb flush. Then, you take the shims to the miter saw, and shim either the front or the back of the casing, as appropriate, that amount.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
I frequntly eyeball the back bevel and just use my pencil as a shim on the saw table..move it towards or away from the blade for the amount of back bevel I want.Seems to be the standard I have encounterd in a lot of situations.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Is there a good finish carpentry book on the market that covers these problems. It seems that the books out there really don't take into account all the problems that you can run into. The books seem to show you what to do when everything lines up ok but that is seldom the case with old houses or even new houses.
thanks in advance
don't know of any..but FWIW..ya can read about it and ya can get hands on exp.I'd prefer the hands on education, it is something no book can give you.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
>> I'd prefer the hands on education ...Of course that depends in part on how much he's paying for the molding he's chopping up.
that's my point..when education starts to COST you, you tend to learn fast.{G}
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
The best book is your brains. Use them every time BEFORE the installation of the materials. Carpentry is 90% trim and fit and 10% making stuff that you have to... trim and install-fit again.
If you're thinking that everything is level and square, then ...you brake the drywall to install the countertop. Or you adjust the door frame by ...braking and make the walls lose.
What you need to learn is ...trim and fit a square to a non square or level surface. You may need to do minor re-adjustements to the surface some times but if you go to the job with the attitude that everything is square and level then your job it will look out of square and out of level.
YCF dino
When the drywall is proud of the jambs, instead of pounding the drywall into submission, or rasping/grinding it down flat, I find it a lot easier and faster to build out the jambs.
I save thin waste pieces of poplar and rip them into varying thicknesses...so they end up about 3/4" wide by from just under 1/8th up to 3/16ths or so thick. The thickness is as needed.
I then tack these onto the side and head, allowing the jamb to reveal a bit.
Then case out the window, with the trim allowing the poplar rip to show a bit of reveal.
Sometimes this causes the trim to lay doan a bit, so if mitering, like andy wrote, the miters will be slightly open. Back cut them a bit. Biscuits and gravy to hold the miters tight.
Adds a couple of shadow lines, looks purdy, and it's faster an less messier than messing with the drywall.
I had to do this as when I used to build I'd run 5/8ths" rock on the walls, so the drywall would always be a bit proud.
An old guy told me once, "You can make it perfect, but you're not going to make any money."
He was right, of course, so for now do the best you can with what you know and move on.
Cardboard? Who are these guys? If you have to shim out the corner of the miter, use a shingle. If your miter is at the the correct angle but is open on the face shave a little off the back of the miter (without touching the face) with a very sharp block plane.
If you are attempting compound miter cuts on simple trim corners you are opening up a can of worms that will be extremely time consuming to a degree that you may well wear a trail from this particular cut to the miter saw that will be visible after the carpet is installed.
If you do not possess a very sharp block plane, disregard the above and go back to whatever you were doing last year.Be Constructive
Gord
St.Margaret's Bay NS
Just to be clear, I don't advocate cardboard as a shim between the casing and the jamb or the wall. It's just a shim to orient the casing in the miter box, so that it's relatively in the same plane as it will be on the wall. If it ain't flat on the wall, you can't expect to cut casing laying flat in the miter box and have it fit. I've also used shingles, but they're often too thick.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
Must have touched a nerve....<G>
A mitersaw freecut lengthwise down the end of a shingle will bring it to zero. (not recommended for those uncomfortable with the equipment). Or the block plane will do the same trick if you want to save a trip to the saw. The only thing resembling cardboard in my toolkit is a deck of plastic coated playing cards which make excellent shims for adjusting hinges as well as spacers for setting drawer fronts etc.
5 playing cards = approx 1/16"
Be Constructive
Gord
St.Margaret's Bay NS
The shim in the back works, but I have never had any luck with the block plane.
The shim in the back works, but I have never had any luck with the block plane.
I agree, unless the profile of the moulding face is relatively flat, the block plane is not much good.
As Andy explained before, the window jamb should be planed back to the level of the drywall, if possible. I have run into vinyl jambs on occasion, they are easy to straighten, but if they overhang the drywall, shimming is about the only option.
Another trick that works is cutting one side of the window/door trim upside down. Some houses are so tight there is no room for flipping lengths so I began cutting all of the trim from one side of the saw. I'm right handed so I set the miter saw 45º to the left and lock it. I do not move the blade one iota after I've started. If I need to adjust the cut one way or the other I move the moulding, and not the saw. The left hand cuts are normal, but the right hand cuts are face down. if the moulding has a slight bevel it will also put a slight back cut on the 45 which will give a little room for adjustment and glue. The explanation is complicated, but it works. Be Constructive
Gord
St.Margaret's Bay NS
That's cuz yours ain't shiny sharp like mine. A sharp block plane, a really sharp one, set and tuned to take off shavings a few thou thick, can do wonders for your miter joints.
If you aren't equipped with a really good set of stones and lapping gear, just go to the SCARY SHARP website, and see what you need to do.
When you say scive, do you mean scribe??? Or is this a regional difference. And in the original post, the guy mentions the cardboard compressing when it is hammered on. How about using a nail gun and a putty knife to hold the alignment while you shoot the nails??
When you say scive, do you mean scribe??? Or is this a regional difference. And in the original post, the guy mentions the cardboard compressing when it is hammered on.
I don't see the scive but it must be Scrive.
About the rest. How about using a nail gun and a putty knife to hold the alignment while you shoot the nails??
Whatever works at this point.
But....The idea is to realize the problem and deal with it. You either plane it or build it up. The more you ignore the problem, the more problems you invite.