this is a new log kit no chinking – will be the main house – i’m going to finish the interior walls which will be tounge and gruve pine and the logs on the inside – the elect and plumbing are done – its been recomened that I use polyurathane oil base and spray it useing HVLP, sanding then a second coat. what would be wrong with water base? or is there something else you would recomened? I go under the name Two Men And A Brush, do interior and exterior painting and ceramic tile. This clear finish is new to me, I have done furniture but nothing this large. Also i’m in central Ky, its started to get cold so ventalation could be a problem.
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Capt,
My wife and I just finished building a fairly large log home and used the permachink lifeline clear on the interior. This is a water based product and worked great. Check them out at http://permachink.com/llinterior.htm.
My logs averaged 18" at he butt and 12" at the tips. I left them exposed. I also applied the finish to my tongue and groove ceiling boards and it worked out great.
I would apply one coat with an airless, sand it to knock down the bumps and apply a second light coat.
Steve
thanks PolarBear I will look into this. This seems like more of what I would like to use, getting proper ventilation with the poly will be a problem. This is quite a large house, the logs are uniform from one to the other, the interior walls are tongue and groove as is the catheral overhead (18ft). Won't the HVLP work also?
Most of my career has been spent on log homes, or semi-log homes in Colorado and Wyoming. At least in our climate and with the products available as of a few years ago, nothing has the durability or ease of application as do the oil-based finishes.
There probably isn't a faster way to install T&G pine than to prefinish with an oil poly and install shortly afterwards. If you don't, slivers of unfinished wood will show as the T&G shrinks. At the very least any stain should be applied first.
As carpenters, we love installing T&G in cool weather shortly after it's stained since an oil-based stain acts as a lubricant during assembly and the cool/cold weather reduces wood warping to a minimum.
Typically, during T&G installation we'd typically one sander/stain/finish guy for every two carpenters.
Instead of spraying, 100% of all interior wood was finished by brush or rag. By far the most common finish is an oil based poly reduced a little with mineral spirits.
Having said that, I can appreciate how fast a water-based finish can be sprayed. On the down side to water-base, most people appreciate the warmer tones created with oil. Whatever you do, don't mix the two in the same house unless that's a design decision since the look is quite different.
On the exterior the finish is quite different. Keep with the major products made specifically for log home exteriors. Oil-based finishes are the most durable and exterior maintenance on a log home is so incredibly expensive over the life of the structure that I can't imagine suggesting a water-based finish that has to be reapplied more often.
The absolute best are the two-part finishes, such as those produced by Sikens.
The finish contractor that I respect the most has us wait for 6 months after the logs are set before applying the exterior finish. This allows the log surface to partially dry, roughen a bit and hold the finish much better. If you look for it, you can spot new log homes that have been finished shortly after being built. Any small cracks that develop are a break in the finish.
Spraying is common on the exterior, but only if it's back-brushed.
Also keep in mind that products aren't all compatible so if the water-based stuff doesn't work out, it may have to be completely stripped before another finish can be applied. The cost of log homes isn't the upfront costs, but what happens down the road.
Bottom line I wouldn't allow unproven water-based finishes on the exterior of our buildings. If there are high-tec products that have a good track record, as there are sure to be, I would use them, but I'm not going to be the guinea pig.
Best of luck.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
thanks IdahoDon will pass on to owner and keep under consideration
captbill,
can you please reconsider the log home idea? I understand how you miight have your heart set on one and I really admit the attraction..
The problem is that no log home that I know of addresses the issue of moisture well.
Modern living causes a lot of moisture in a house.. moisture wants to exit and since wood is hydrogyscopic (absorbs moisture) that will cause logs to have moisture inside of them.. Eventually that moisture will cause the interior of the log to rot and when it does the log home will fail at some point..
I don't know where you live but here in Minnesota we've seen log homes that are lived in year around to rot in as little as ten years..
Back when the pioneers built log homes there simply wasn't the same level of moisture, baths were seldom more than a once a year proposal, indoor plants were unheard of, cooking vapors went up the chiminey and still darn few of those original log homes survive..
If there were a vapor barrier in the middle of the log practical objections would be moot. I've seen a log home whereby they used slab wood over a foam core followed by exterior slab wood which could possibly be made to solve the vapor issue, but I've never seen that actaully built..
The house is already built, i'm going to seal the enterior and exterior
Frenchy,
I hate to argue the point with you, but if anything, I find that here in Alaska, exactly the opposite is the case. In my log home, I can't get the humidity high enough to keep my hardwood floors happy - especially in winter but that isn't a function of the logs sucking the moisture out of the house - it's more a total lack of moisture period.
What I have seen is that if people don't build enough overhang into their roof system, the log ends get wet and stay that way which leads to rot. The log builder on my house has been in business for 25 years and the houses he built in the early days are still in great shape. One thing that he tells all of his clients is that you need plenty of overhang.
I have also seen some log homes built by early homesteaders in Los-Anchorage that don't have any rot. One I am thinking of in particular has been there since the early - mid 1940's. I am sure some have rotted away, but I would guess that more burned to the ground or were bulldozed to make way for McMansions.
Steve
PolarBear,
Hurrah for you! At least you recognize the issue of water vapor and the problems it causes.. Often log homes that are lived in year around in the northern climates use a humidifier to get the moisture up. Dry homes are uncomfortable. Plus if the moisture is below a certain point it takes more heat to feel comfortable.
Heating a home dries it out, so they pump water into the forced air furnace and that travels around the house and eventually like all moisture tries to find it's way out.. it get's into the logs where it reaches the point where the inside is no longer above 32 degrees and freezes there.. If the spring is dry enough so the water vapor finds it's way out side of the log before the spring rains begin then there is hope for the logs for another year.. If not the moisture remains inside the log doing damage..
You are correct with regard to the overhang issue. that too causes problems, but it's a common problem and most log home builders know how to cut off the ends of logs and splice in new butts. The home is junk when the interior rot from water vapor meets up with the rot from exposed ends.
As for your exceptions which proves the rule, you speak of the durability of a log home from the 1940's Since niether you nor I can speak with authority about how the house was used, (and more important sealed up) was it a weekend retreat or used seasonally? Were the owners particularly carefull with regard to plants and cooking prefering to bake rather than boil etc.. The exact reasons for it's unusual longevity cannot be discussed with any real authority..
However I have seen far more stick built and timberframed homes from around the turn of the last century survive in Alaska than I've seen Log homes which have survived. It's not uncommon for timberframed homes to last over 500 years whereas it's a rare log home indeed that lasts over 50 Stick framed survive because untill the 1970's most were extremely poor at sealing and the free flow of air thru them dried them out before rot occured.. Something which also occured with log homes. accounting for some of `durability of a few of them..
Well if all the log homes in Minnesota rot out in ten years, then you are in need of some contractors who know what the hell they are doing. Seriously ten years?
West Coast,
I'm sorry but you need to read a bit more carefully. What I said was that log homes rotted quickly. some in as little as ten years. It honestly depends on how they are used and how they are sealed up..
Yes ten years if a home owner uses a forced air furnace with a humidifier or has a lot of plants and loves to cook and take long hot showers etc. (and dosn't have an air exchanger). The show Home Time experianced just that problem with one of it's log homes.
The issue is freezing.. water vapor reaches thru the log untill it gets to the point where the temp of the wood is below freezing. it remains there untill it dries out.. with a wet early spring, and a damp late fall it's possible for water vapor to remain inside of logs for 8 months or more of the year.. some years depending on the weather the logs never dry up all the way thru.. we all know the effects of damp wood.
Log homes are prone to issues like that.. percentage wise more log homes rot inside of 50 years than any other method of construction..
It's a real pity! I love the look and feel of log homes.. no stick built can ever approach them for the warmth of the logs and feeling that all that wood provides.. darn few timberframed homes give the same sense.
Can't find any info on log homes rotting out, perhaps you could post a link or some info.
My brother in-law works for a log home builder here in B.C. that has been building since the early seventies with homes all over the place. All he has heard about is happy customers.
We have a lot of log homes in B.C. and Alberta but this is the first i have ever heard about log homes rotting out, especially in as little as ten years that seems ridiculous.
Westcoats,
I don't post links..
However the show Hometime had just such an example within the ten years I spoke about..
I think they actaully showed cutting of the ends of logs and splicing in new ones.. what wasn't said (and I heard from the crane operator who was there) was that several of the logs they cut off and replaced the ends continued as far as they could see to be rotted in the center.
Logs made of cedar would be less prone to these problems as would homes built where freezing weather is a matter of a few days/weeks not the months that we get here in Minnesota..
We have a lot of log homes here in Minnesota too! I think I read where something like 2% of homes built aren't traditional stick built. Since log homes are the next most popular method of construction it's reasonable to estimate that there are most likely well over 10,000 log homes here in Minnesota.
Frenchy, it seems that interior moisture problems are more of an urban myth than reality.
Couldn't find one bit of information that even touched on the subject.
Lots of rot problems with lack of proper overhangs as Piffin alluded to, but that is a matter of building design and not an interior moisture issue.
Westcoast,
I hope you haven't simply confined your search to the internet as many here tend to do.. Frankly it's like going on the internet to get a bid to remodel your house. I gave you a verifiable source, the show Hometime had a segment on the subject, plus if you read about SIP's you will quickly find it's not a urban legend.. SIP's have a faster problem than logs because you are dealing with a 1/2 inch of OSB not many inches of log but the problem is real.
If you want, please ignore me.. heck you most likely will because your mind is made up.. that's OK! Maybe you'll be lucky and it won't be an issue with you and you'll sell it before it does become one.. if not it will be too late.
I stand to gain nothing personally so it really doesn't matter to me either way.
OK, I live in the log building capitol of the US - the Bitterroot Valley, MT. More log home builders here than anywhere else.Everything you say CAN BE AN ISSUE. Just like conventional construction, it can be done right or wrong. Do logs rot? Sure. So do exterior timbers, exposed rafter tails, cedar siding, etc. Everything that is not plastic, stone, or concrete can suffer from moisture problems. That doesn't mean log homes are bad. You can build a faulty timberframe, a faulty stick built, or a faulty log home.Or you can build any of those homes to last for a long time. Whatever, I have no dog in this fight - being a former timberframer, I am obligated to look down upon log work, ;-), but that doesn't mean there aren't plenty of people doing it right. There are plenty of old log homes around here that are doing fine and plenty of recently built stick homes that are pieces of junk.
Jessie,
well said..
I have no intention of ignoring you, and my mind is definately not made up. My basic point is that one problem house on Hometime does not qualify as lots of problems with log homes not having a vapor barrier as you pointed out.
I think Jesse in the previous post said it best in that there can be faulty buildings no matter how you build, but that doesn't mean they are all like that.
I don't care for log homes personally and would not own one, but i do know there is a huge number of them around that are getting on in age with no sign of interior moisture problems like you say.
I'm sceptical of interior moisture problems with log homes as a rule of thumb primarily because they leak air so darn bad. I have yet to see a tight log house except for those that have 100% of all interior and exterior cracks chinked.
What wouldn't surprise me is that a log builder is going to build a great house to be featured on a TV show so they collect the best logs and set them aside to be milled just in time for the show so they look the best. Wrapped up through the summer to prevent moisture loss the logs are slowly rotting. Then the logs are fitted and as fast as you can say spray me, one of the new high-tech finishes is applied that locks in much of the moisture. Just a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me.
A newly built log home with vapor barrier in the crawl space, exhaust fans in kitchen and bathrooms, is probably going to last longer than any of us are.
What I do like are stick built or ICF homes with 1/3 log, hand peeled siding and full log trusses. High performance and classic good looks.
Happy log peeling.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Idaho Don,
You may be right (that it will last outlast us) Depending on how it's built and where and with what wood. However that isn't good enough. It's about sustainability.. It needs to last at least as long as it takes to grow the replacement logs or we are cheating our children and their children,, (sorry, lecture over)
I like your thoughts on how to build a log home. use the insulational value of SIP's or ICF's underneath peeled log slabs. Just remember to add a suplimental vapor barrier underneath, because in spite of what manufactures may claim neither SIP's nor ICF's are vapor proof. (besides a $100.00 for a few rolls of 5 mil. poly isn't going to break anybodies bank)
Westcoast,
OK you just said there is no sign of problems {yet}.. I just listed a whole number of reasons why an individual home might not suffer from the issue of excess interior moisture..
To briefly sumerize.
They may be in a location where they are able to dry out before rot sets in (much of the west coast comes to mind)
They may not have protracted periods of freezing,
They may be made from more rot resistant woods like Cedar
They may be occupied only briefly
they may have a good air to air exchanger system incorporated
they may be natually well ventilated (air leaks)
In addition because we are speaking of vastly differant climates your experiance may differ, objects in the mirror are closer than they appear, close cover before striking,, Oops <G>
Not every log home every place will suffer from the issue I pointed out.. Yet the fact is that of the hundreds of thousands of log homes built since this country was founded only a tiny handfull (relatively) remain that are more than 100 years old..
Finally to the best of my knowledge Home Time only did two series on Log homes, the first I mentioned and the second hasn't been up a decade yet. So for a show that proports to demonstrate proper methods of building to have a 50% failure rate might indicate there is some validity to my statement..
I'm differant from you in that I wanted a log home, I can't tell you how much time I spent researching the subject and looking at homes.. I was frightened off by the log settling issue because I saw a number of homes built that didn't account for the problem or didn't deal with it properly and they were frankly terrible. Thus I began to look at older log homes that had already settled and noted the large percentage of them with rot issues or recent signs of drastic repair.
Only when I gave up on the idea of owning a log home and started to research timberframes did I discover why I was seeing so much rot in older log homes. The problem is very real in Timberframes. not in the timbers but in the SIP's panels which have the same issues, rot of the OSB caused by excess interior moisture.
The solution in SIP paneled homes is simple. Put a vapor barrier under the sheetrock and make sure the joints are well sealed just like a stick built house.. However, since a vapor barrier would look awfully silly on a log home I see no simple solution for the problem..
The show Hometime is probably one of the few that do have some solid information, but of the shows I have seen, a good third of them have things just plain wrong, so if that is your only source for this info, I'm going to count it as wrong or exceedingly rare and not something to base advise to novices on.
or maybe you just misunderstood what they were saying. i've seen that more than a few times. one customer of mine was describing a technique she has seen on a TV show and telling me how...but I had seen the same show and she had it all turn upside down, inside out and backwards to...
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Piffan,
I only used the show Hometime as one example of what I found.. I did a lot of research because I wanted a log home. ( we are now going back decades long before I hadanything to do with construction)
At first I was put off by the log settling issues, frankly I saw some pretty horrible examples of the problem on even recently constructed log homes (way back in the 1970's) So I started to look at log homes that had been built long enough that the logs had settled. I noticed either a lot of rot, or recent signs of drastic repair in an extremely high percentage of log homes..
The majority of log homes that I viewed had either poor solutions to log settling issues or rot. In fact all but a few had those issues some had both! Even part time lake cabins..
Now to be Fair the methods of dealing with log settling issues is well known now, and there are solutions to th water vapor issue as well. (air exchangers for example) the insulational value of logs is what would keep me from building here now. But that's just me, others may not fear high heating bills or live wher it isn't an issue.
>>The majority of log homes that I viewed had either poor solutions to log settling issues or rot. In fact all but a few had those issues some had both! Even part time lake cabins..
Now to be Fair the methods of dealing with log settling issues is well known now, and there are solutions to th water vapor issue as well. (air exchangers for example) the insulational value of logs is what would keep me from building here now. But that's just me, others may not fear high heating bills or live wher it isn't an issue. <<
So basically what you have just said here is that it is all about crappy contractors who don't know what the hell they are doing.
Lets face it, Hometime had some problems with a house was probably to do with poor choices rather than the log home itself.
The interior of B.C. and Alberta must have very similar climates to minnesota and like i have said, there just are not the problems like you make out. Exterior damage but not from interior moisture.
Westcoast,
I'm certainly not an expert on log home construction but I am aware of the issues we have here with vapor.. Any home has vapor issues.. simply because human beings bath cook and have indoor plants create vapor issues.
It's well known how to deal with the vapor on typical stick built houses. You put up a 5 mil poly vapor barrier and that solves the problem in most cases.. if it's really bad you put an air to air exchanger in. That's also the solution in timberframes..
Now how do log homes address the issue?
I have never seen anybody in MT use a poly vapor barrier behind sheetrock.Of course, it is code in most places in MN.
"It's well known how to deal with the vapor on typical stick built houses. You put up a 5 mil poly vapor barrier and that solves the problem in most cases.."Or can cause a very serious problem.Only recommended in very cold climates none of which re south of MN.And with SIPS poly does not add anything and can cause problems..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
This whole issue/debate has me smirking...yes my log home has "chinking" , yes, we have vapor from living in it..yes it is estimated to be between 150-175 yers old. And these White Oak and Chestnut logs ABOVE the sill logs..are solid as a rock thru-out. The sills are lonf since eaten by critters and now are creosoted ties from the '40s I am told.
I don't know what Hometime did up in MN. But here in KY, termites kill more log structures than logs rotting from within.
Ok, maybe it was more drafty than a stacked log home, but I have it tightened up pretty well..I had to, just to maintain heat.
I don't know where Frenchy gets these ideas.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sphere, I'm glad to hear about a log home built with oak and chesnut.. Too me that always seemed a logical way to build. Since here In Minnesota the dominant hardwood tree is white oak..
As for termites we don't have them in Minnesota. See our extreme cold causes one problem and solves another, thus the regional differances in construction..
You named the reason your log home has endured, actaully two reasons. Drafty chinking allowing vapor a path out and decay resistant woods. Out of couriosity don't termites attack white oak?
They only will go after the sapwood, which in my house has mostly been hewn away, or, a wet for a long time log, like where the roof ( no gutters) splashed and stayed shaded.
For the most part, everything above 16'' from grade is about as hard as concrete.
BTW, around here many old school houses still stand and being floorframed ON GRADE they used Poplar..NO termites go after poplar for some reason.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
"I don't know where Frenchy gets these ideas."He is a very creative individual.As are most succesful salesmen
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ayup.
Hey, my place being a saddle bag type house is kinda odd...one half of it is the typical VEE notch ( and my corners are flush sawn, not sticking out) and the other half is a dovetail notch.
I don't know if it was built by two different individuals at two differnt times or whether there was just two teams going at it at once. I'd venture to guess they both take about the same amount of labor to hew. Either way, they are still as tite as a frogs butt, water tite.
I have noticed that the Vee notch with flush , square ends can leave that short grain kinda fragile, maybe they switched methods after seeing that ppossible flaw.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I've built two log homes, one log vacation cabin and a log barn. I continue to do quite a bit of log work....mostly interiors, porches, etc., as part of my contracting business.
One of the log homes I built (helped build) was in Northern Idaho about 25 years ago....full scribed hand-peeled logs, locking saddle notches, Western Tamarack logs.
The climate there, by Frenchy's description, is very similar to Minnesota's. I visited that home two years ago, looked it over carefully, and it is in like new condition (w/forced air heat, BTW).
The second log home I built was a "D" profile, eastern white pine kit from a PA., supplier. It's here on the Oregon Coast (inland about 6 miles) and, because of the high winter humidity here. I took a lot of pains to weatherize that structure despite the fact that the customer was a complete jerk. (So far so good....I want no call backs from that SOB!)
The other buildings I've built were in high altitude climates, rarely heated and others like them exist in the Cascade Mountains that are very old and remain in fairly good condition despite long-term neglect.
Building with logs requires some of the same instincts as building a wooden boat, keeping in mind at all times the path of water and gravity.
I also learned some time ago here that arguing with Frenchy would be a total waste of effort were it not for the humor that is often spawned before the the thread dies.
Logs rotting from the inside? That's a new one on me.I saw the Hometime Log Home episode, in fact, I think I have it on tape somewhere around here...The log home in question was from Maple Island Log Homes. If I recall correctly, all the log damage that happened (and it did happen very quickly - from 5 - 10 years I think)happened on protruding log surfaces. Could a log home rot from the inside out? Possibly. There was that one in Dayton, OH that had an indoor pool. That could potentially be a problem in the future I suppose.Log structures just simply do not rot from interior moisture. Logs rot because of exterior moisture problems, usually because the between-log seams have not been adequately sealed.There used to be a myth that logs needed to breathe a great deal to release interior moisture. It used to be the main selling point for a lot of finish manufacturers. "Our finish allows the logs to breathe!"However, I am absolutely confident that I could paint the entire exterior of a log structure with no adverse long term effects.There are so many variables though. The log home previously owned by Sly Stallone, in coastal California was painted white and rotted away in a relatively short period of time. However, there were painted log structures in Montana that were 30 years old and were still in fine shape. There are also a ton of Log structures in Colorado. Montana etc. that have no finish on them at all.Try that in the eastern half of the USA and your home will be gone before the kids are out of the house.I will stand by this though - log homes just simply do not rot due to the egress of interior moisture.Uhhh - as far as the original question about interior finish and sealant?Stay away from solvent based finishes on the interior. They outgas. a lot. It's just not healthy to have a solvent based finish on the interior of your home. Unless, of course, you completely encapsulate the solvent based finish within a water based finish.Sansin has some decent products with pretty low odor (relatively speaking). Natural wax finishes are nice. Heck, anything will work. The goal is just to make the log surfaces smooth and easier to clean.I definitely suggest caulking the interior. I'm not big on interior textured chinking though. It just gets too darn dirty over time.I guess that's all I have to say about that. ;)
I have been following along with humored interest in this thread.
One salesman who was told by a crane truck operator that log homes rot out from the inside and a bunch of other people trying to tell him he is wrong.
Funny - well, if the crane operator said it's true...=-)
Hey - easy on the salesman slams.
I hate all generalizations. <G>
PS - me memory of the hometime log rot issue was that it was a log end that jutted out past the overhang. . . .
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
I wasn't slamming salesmen, just putting things in context.There are things frenchie knows and things he has to make up. This subject is out of his area of expertise, by a long shot, as is apparent by his replies here.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
He certainly is persistant, though.
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
One trademark of a sucessfull salesman!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I see you've stopped shouting at the shoreline here.
I can't believe that this thread still has legs. . . .
http://jhausch.blogspot.comAdventures in Home BuildingAn online journal covering the preparation and construction of our new home.
Not stopped, just saving it for when I have time to waste while waiting phone calls etc.It's a peers forum, one of the purposes of all such is that anyone who wants to can advance theories and have them substantiated or shot down in the light if facts, experience and truth. most scientific knowledge advances in similar manner. but every now and then, somebody gets to play the fool in support of the overall quest. Sort of a sacrificial offering.
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Bill Hartmann,
If you are aware of the way SIP's are assembled you would know that not only is it possible but also likely that the connection between panels may not be vapor proof.
First an adhesive is put on the joint and spread as evenly as possible.. since the adhesive is the consistancy of thick peanut butter and in cold weather spreads just about as well, there is every possiblity that a vapor path exists. The manual and the video I recieved from the manufacturer both speak about using taped poly as the vapor barrier.
My Aunt lives in a stick-built house that was built in the 30's. No vapor barrier. No rot either. How does she deal with the moisture issue? I suspect like a log home it is not tight enough of an envelope to hold moisture.
Wood breathes.
Westcoast,
vapor is lazy ;-) it will seek the easiest path to escape. it will only go thru wood if there is no other easier way out.. No home built in the 30's was built to retain vapor the way modern efficent homes are.. both you and Sphere make my case for me.. leaking house, no problem (but high heating bills) tight house low heating bills but issues with vapor..
>>No home built in the 30's was built to retain vapor the way modern efficent homes are..<<
Wow, log homes are built to retain vapor too? That is your basis of interior moisture problems?
I think you should stick to being a salesman.
Westcoast,
See you forgot regional differances again! We get 40 below weather here in the winter, wind chills get to 80 or 100 below.. log homes are well sealed up here.. that or their owners like seeing drapes flutter and stoking fires with dollar bills.
Frenchy, i have nothing else to add to this topic but it would seem if interior moisture was any kind of a problem that the log home would rot from the top down.
Westcoast,
Good point.. I suspect the reason I've seen few gable end logs fail is either due to greater attention paid to the construction of the roof or perhaps the direction of the logs could be affecting it.. Roofs tend to have particular attention paid to them especially with regard to ventilation..
The following is pure speculation and I will be interested in hearing debate on the subject.
If the gable has logs going vertically instead of horizontally in effect the logs would become giant straws allowing vapor to exit at the roof beam. That still does not explain why the ridge beam isn't among the first to be affected though. I wish Myth busters would look into the issue.. ;-)
Perhaps it can be explained via careful following of the vapor path. if a log yields it's vapor into a vented area that remains dry I suspect that would provide it's safety valve.
I have to make a confession.There are times when I doubt my own sanity when I find myself wasting my time arguing something like this with someone who has never buiolt a log home, has never lived in a log home, and who cites as his authority a TV show that has had involvement with only two log homes.
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Piffan.
I only used the TV show as one example, I gave you my actual experiance and you are free to do further research yourself as to the viability of my statements..
Explain to me the vapor path in a log. Hopefully you are prepared to admit that in a modern home there is vapor present.. Simply admit that the vapor can enter the logs from the interior and figure out it's most likely path to escape & I'll accept that if it's logical..
"Logs made of cedar would be less prone to these problems "That may vary too by region. A common problem here is called pencil rot, up to an inch or so in diameter right up the center of a cedar tree.Corner ends do tend to catch and holdmore rain that any other portion of a log home. That why it is critical to seal the ends when building, the use generous roof overhangs, and to use corner joints designed in the scandinavian styles to avoid holding that water in the joint. but none of the corner end rot haas anything to do with the theory you espoused.In my opinion
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Piffan,
What I suspect happens when the ends rot is the moisture from th interior seeks a way out and since ends are so very hard to seal with a finish, they are also the first to open up and expose themselves to a vapor path. The exterior finish wil do a pretty fair job of sealing the outside of the log from vapor escape, while the inevitable checks will allow vapor to enter the logs.
The ends are the first to go not just because the overhang may not protect them as well but because that is the easiest way out for moisture.
I'm trying to think like vapor here and since there is very little research done on the subject I don't have any studies to back up my thoughts.
"What I suspect happens when the ends rot is the moisture from th interior seeks a way out"Wrong. It is from rain water. When corners are cut and lapped properly, they don't rot. Besides, there is no interior side on a corner lap extrension. both sides are outside
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Piffan,
There can be interterior ends exposed in a log home, but I understand your point.. What you seem to misunderstand is that almost all logs will check to the interior at some point. Those checks are most likely the entry point of interior vapor (I've seen some pretty big checks and they always happen after the logs are up and usually after the heating begins. (typiclly after the logs are finished. .. Once inside the log that moisture seeks the way out. since most likely the exterior is sealed with some sort of paint or finish it leaves the ends of the logs as the exit point.
sure they check - inside and out - but moisture moves consistantly through the log, The insulative mass means there is no point where there is a specific dew point where the wood gets wet keep making it up - this is fun
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Piffan,
It's 40 below outside.. the R value of wood is something like .2 per inch. the interior of the logs is at say 70 degrees while the exterior is at 40 below (I love using extremes to make my point but the logic is valid no matter what the temp differance is)
Someplace between the inside and outside of the log the temp is at 32 degrees. exactly where varies.. however as long as the outside is below freezing water vapor will become trapped inside the log.. once frozen the vapor cannot leave.. it will then become a vapor dam like a roof Ice dam..
I realize that with your Calfornia experiance you may not be exposed to such thought process. Once you put yourself in Minnesota the issue will become obvious..
Guys: I have read this thread with interest and bemusement, because I own a log cabin in far northern Minnesota that was built in 1931 with white pine logs cut and skinned by Chippewas and scribed and fitted by Fins. We have had some rot problems, but most on the exterior due to the fact that my grandmother had the place varnished several times and the moisture was held in the wood. We also had log end rot. All the rot hasa been repaired with epoxy. We use some of the exterior finishes that are forumlated to allow passage of vapor while protectng against UV and other weathering.Aside from the exterior rot whch affected no more than about 10% of surface area, the only problem with rot we had was with a bad roof joint at the chimney that let rain in between the chimney and the log wall.The house was once tight but is no more due to deterioration of the oakum (no chinking in a well-made Fin-built house). It was lived in for long periods of its history, but is now used about 4 to 5 weeks a year.Now here is the fun part. My best friend from highschool 37 years ago, has a property in northern Virginia which is about to be developed. He is disassembling, numbering and bringing up an 1840s log house on the property. We will reassemble it in Minnesota. It is made of Chestnut, walls, floor and ceiling. There is some rot in the lower logs, but not too much. the rest is sound.Here in Wylie, Texas, a local highschool shop project was to rescue an 1870s oak log cabin from Kentucky, bring it down and reassemble it. Almost no rot there either.I'll bet more log houses have burned than rotted. They are really pretty durable. I'll be glad to talk about maintenance issues if anyone asks.Here is a link to pix of the Minnesota place:http://home.earthlink.net/~josephsullivan1/images/Parade%20Rest%20collage2.jpgJoeEdited 12/13/2006 11:36 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Edited 12/13/2006 11:39 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
That can't be in Minnesota, it is too cold there for log homes to last!
Well, I am 52. Maybe it is age-related confusion and my place is really in Alabama. But I could swear I get there via Minneapolis.
J
Joe Sullivan,
Thank you for your comments.. they support my position.. A couple of points if I may. What has thus far saved your cabin has been the ability of logs to shed excess water vapor due to gaps etc. in the chinking and the fact that your cabin isn't occupied 24/7/365. What moisrure in your cabin escaped thru the ends of the logs since the logs were effectively sealed up. hence the end rot.. please be aware that simply because you filled the ends with epoxy doesn't mean the rot stopped.. The rot remains now behind the epoxy..
While you may slow down the rot if the ends were sandblasted and treated, prior to putting in the epoxy eventually rot will reappear.. How soon is a factor of many things, how it's used, if it's sealed up, the weather and other factors..
Your friends home made of chesnut is another example of what will save a log cabin. Made of chestnut it is more decay restant than your white pine.. That plus leaks or air gaps of older construction as well as it's occupancy or lack of occupancy.. A few weekends a year and a brief summer vacation allows logs to dry out much more than24/7/365 occupancy will with well sealed up logs and modern chinking..
The white oak home is another example of decay resistant woods being used.. white oak is among the most decay resistant woods in North America
Frenchy:If you will read my comments with a little care, you will see that they do not support your position after all. If you will look at the linked photo on the above posting, it will become more clear. I said that our rot problems over a period of more than 70 years were all in lower logs. That is true of end rot as well. As the picture shows, our house has log ends that stick out further the lower you go. No log end in the house above the third course of logs has ever showed any rot at all. The ends ring when you hit them with a hammer. The log ends below the third course protrude beyond the over hang and are close to the ground. They alone have rotted. All log sides that have rotted have eiother been close to the ground in an area with limited sun and airflow, OR have been in a backsplash zone.I also said that in its earlier life, the cabin was a residence. In their retirement, my great uncle and aunt lived in it year-round. The house was very tight then, with scribed and fitted logs over oakum. Subsequent to that , and up to about 15 years ago, the house was occupied full time from May through October by my grandparents.Cabin experts believe that the main causes of log rot are: a) liquid water that enters exterior checks and is held in by tight coatings, and b) vapor from the ground on the outside of the lower courses. That is commensurate with my experience. Except for chimney leaks, I have had NO rot on the inside of the house, even in the bathroom.Tell me, why would water vapor seek the lowest logs and go out through the longest ends?If a tight and occupied log house will rot quickly -- within 10 years -- why did my 75 year old house last long enough for me to own it -- with 100% of its original logs?How does the 76 year old red pine Chippewa Forest Supevisor's office remain standing, with lots of respiring people in 8,000 sg ft of modern equipment and modern kitchen and bathrooms? Yet it does. Go look at the picture I linked.
Edited 12/15/2006 6:21 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Joe Sullivan.
As you said it was a residence in it's earlier life.. Hopefully you'll accept that earlier in it's life it most likely was not completely sealed as modern log homes are today.. That definately explains the longevity of those logs..
In fact I think if you were to do a screen door test today you'd be surprised at all of the leaks currantly in that home.. Any place that air can leak out vapor can also leak out.. in fact think of vapor as a lazy mouse, if it can sneak out without knawing holes in logs it would rather do that than being forced to chew it's way out..
I will grant you that contact with the ground or back slpash from the ground is most likely the cause of log rot in lower courses.. However If you remember the log home from home time (the first one with the rot issues) logs all the way up were rotted at the ends.. When I was looking at buying a log home that is what I noticed myself.. I really only looked at modern log homes, those built within ten years, while some of the rot could have been explained by lack of overhangs, or poor choice of logs, there often was rot right near the top. While it's possible that driven rain could have affected the logs ends near the roof most logs were tucked under the overhang to some degree..
Not every home had rot.. some didn't. It's been too long since I was looking at log homes to remember with any clarity if those homes with no end rot were occupied full time or not. In the summer with windows open there won't be an issue of moisture build up, however in the winter moisture build up must be addressed somehow. Given a case of a wet summer, a rainy fall , cold winter and spring flooding how could a well sealed log home deal with the moisture build up? Is a year a long enough period of time to cause rot? I don't think so, however depending on many factors as I said earlier, it may be the start of rot..
Once in wood rot does not go away.. There really is no long term treatment for rot, if there were millions of wooden boats would still be afloat. I fully admit I'm not an expert at wood rot.. I've read abit about it and certainly experianced it, if you want full details go to Woodenboat's web site and there is always discussions about rot..
Frenchy:
It sounds like what you are saying then is that if modern tight log homes lack air exchange and good ventilation, they could have interior rot. Clearly, though, traditional log homes do not rot any faster than any other structure. They do struggle with exterior rot if not properly maintained. Except for the aforementioned roof leak problems, our rot problems all stem from improper exterior coatings and inadequate maintenance when my grandarents were in their 80s and 90s.
Keep in mind, too, Frenchy, that this house is in nothern Itasca county, about 20 feet back from the north shore of a 4,000 acre lake (built WAY before modern zoning required setbacks). It is humid there all the time except when it is frozen. If log homes were especially prone to rot, this house should be nothing but a fireplace standing in a pile of dust.
Actually, there are two things you can do to stop or prevent rot. The first is to keep the logs as dry as possible. The second is to implant borate rods into rot-prone logs (usually those in the first three of four courses, but anywhere else necessary. The products now out infuse into the wood when the humidity is at a point that rot would be encouraged. They actually kill the rot.
Joe Sullivan,
I am certainly willing to rethink my thoughts about log homes. At the turn of the 19 the century log homes dominated the housing market.. perhaps population was say 50 million. (Bill Hartmann will look it up for me just to prove me wrong ;-)
So I'd bet that there were close to 10 million log homes/ buildings at that time..
Recently I read someplace that there were over 80 million homes in the US. I also read that 99% of all homes built are traditional stick built homes.. that leaves 1% for log, timberframed, SIP's, ICF's, straw bale and every other method of home construction..
Thus there are something like 800,000 alternative homes. I'll grant that the lions share of alternative building is log homes.. Lets say 500,000 log homes..
OK to be generous let's say I'm wrong by 100% instead there are a million log homes.. that is still down dramatically from the 10 million I guessed earlier..
I have no such numbers for timberframes for example, I couldn't even begin to guess. However if you look at timberframes that are over say 100 years old and compare them to the number of log homes over 100 years I would think that the survival rate of log homes is dramatically lower than the survival rate of timberframes. (to mention just one alternative build method)
Going back to what I first said, that I was willing to reconsider facts as they are presented..
I will grant that most early log homes most likely rotted out from the ground up due to logs in contact with the ground, poor drainage and other such issues. Thus I'm speaking of modern construction log homes built on foundations which set the logs above ground level. I seperate that from older techniques where they are set either on the ground or on stones just above the ground..
Now I've said all along that circumstances vary. location, design, etc.. I will grant that a log home used on weekends and occasionally during the summer will not have worse issues of rot than any other home..
However as a full time residence at least in colder climates there is no way to protect the wood from interior vapors.. vapors that every other home must address.
Well that's a wrong statement..
I believe that it would be possible to protect logs from vapor, just that it's not done..
A vapor proof barrier sprayed on the insides of the homes and resprayed every time a check appears (check as in split of wood due to shrinkage) could certainly address the issue. That plus other vapor dealing techniques could make a log home no more vulnerable to rot than any other home..
However too many of the log homes I looked at had rot issues for me to believe that's a serious possibility..
Frenchy:
My house was built on a concrete and stone foundation as you can see in the picture. Nevertheless, we did have low rot problems. Humidity from the ground is a real threat to unteated logs.
As to why there are relativcely few old log homes around, aside from rot here are four good reasons:
1) Many were built as temporary quarters (that meaning a few years) until a proper home could be made. They were later used as barns and sheds, or cannibalized, or left to fall down.
2) Fire was rampant
3) Many have been incorporated into later, larger structures and are still with us but invisible from the street.
4) Termites
Joe Sullivan,
I seldom open pictures, having gotten stung a few times in the past I'm hyper carefull. Sorry. ;-(
I did factor in the conversion of log homes to other buildings, it's pretty hard to tell if that nice old colonial is a timberframe or not untill you see when it was built. same if there is siding over a log home..
You did fail to mention that many rot.. as for termites in Minnesota I don't believe it.. carpenter ants, other beatles etc.. sure but not termites.. Not where you are . As for fires I would suggest that fires are no more common in log homes than other homes of the era..
No, I said ASIDE from rot, and in as much as you appeared to be talking about national home statistics, I responded in kind. If you meant to limit your comments to Minnesota alone, then I agree -- no termites.
Fire was VERY common, which accounts for the great scarcity of real colonial and late 18th, early 19th century structures that have not been somehow reconstructed.
Joe Sullivan,
I do agree that fire was common in older homes, However I don't know that I can state that fire was more common in a log home than a timberframe home.. well except for the temp nature of some log homes. At times they built fireplaces with nothing more than mud and sticks, bound to burn down..
However I've seen some pretty scary fireplaces in timberframe homes myself.. particularly out east where giant central fireplaces were made with extremely weak mortor doomed to eventually fail.
I understand your point about termites however again I don't know that a timberframe home built back then would be any less prone to termite infestation. Since we are speaking about 300 years + of both log homes and homes of other construction we can debate forever why a given home failed.. why a home built another way would still remain standing for 300 years..
There remain too many timberframed homes dating from the 1700's thru today compared to log homes. While any home may be improperly built or maintained there is a real differance in the surviability of log homes and homes of other construction from that era.
To be fair, most homes built in 1700 something have been built and rebuilt many times. Simple basics like wiring or indoor plumbing did not exisit when they were new. You may have a point if you argue Washington's hatchet on any 1700's home
Really, if I had to guess, I'd say that a combination of fire and the fact that so many log houses were planned to be temporary are the real reasons why they are gone. In fact, Frenchy, scads of them probably did rot, due to neglect if nothing else.
On the other hand, in Minnesota, there are a good many surviving Fin-built log homes. I'd guess this is because the Fins were the best log crafters in the world, and they did NOT consider their structures to be temporary. To the old-world FIns, building solid, permananent log homes was ingrained into the culture. Often their homes were two story and multi-room affairs. The Chippewa Forest Supervisor's office us a supurb example of Fin log work. My cabin is a minor example. Both are in good shape after 75 years.
If you don't want to follow the link I gave you to the Supervisor's office, just google it. It is a remarkable structure. Or, if someone will tell me how, I'll post it.
My own house shows the care the Fins took. Only one log in the entire house is pieced. Each log was scribed to the one below adzed, and fitted tightly with a bit of oakum in between but not visable. Where there was some unwanted bow, they kerfed it just enough for the log to settle cleanly.
If you are interested, the Minnesota Historical Society used to have a book about Fin log houses in the state. It is quite good. They may still have copies available, or at least have one in their library at the HQ, which is sort of across the road from the Cathedral in St. Paul. I assure you, FIn log craftsmanship is lovely to behold.
""At the turn of the 19 the century log homes dominated the housing market.."" Cite your source please. I don't believe this statistic at all. That is an "Urban Myth"
Most often one of the first industries set up in any area that had any kind of timber was a sawmill. Made the logs into boards for housing and every other type of structure.
At the middle of the 19th. century most of the population did not live in log homes.
Areas that had good clay made bricks, Sod houses dominated parts of the country , Earlier a common building tehnique was Timber Frame infilled with wattle and mud, Adobe in the S.W.
Dirt floor log homes rotted from the ground up , and that was the early version of some settlers home. The settler's log home was mostly viewed in those days much like we view placing mobile homes on small partials of land while building the "real home" , temporary structure. Timber frame were much more likely to have been raised off the ground on piers and be the "real home" .
I am curious what the Finns, Russians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Poles, Ukranians would have to say about your theories. My guess is they have the longest standing tradition of Log Architecture and a lot of it still standing.
By the way , what was the immigrant population of of settlers in Minnesota in the early 19th. century ? Claiming nothing survives when nothing existed to survive is bull.
Well, right.
That was part of my point, too. A large (but unknown) percentage of log homes were temporary shelter until the real house could be built. Shelter was needed NOW. Your sod house analogy is very apt. No one ever intended to live in a sod house for very long, or most log houses, either -- outside the Nordic settlements, that is. Many temporary log houses were either eventually incorporated into a larger structure, or used as barns and sheds, or left to fall down.
My wife's family has land in the Arkansas now used for rice but once a sunstantial cotton farm. The old main house was originally a log structure that had various additions, plus clapboard siding put on (wooden, 19th century, not Sears). To see it, you would not notice the log core.
Some log structures were only built to last a season or two, often at a winter camp. In the west, cottonwood logs chinked with mud were comon. Needless to say, if any of those survived, they would be extreme rarities. But for a winter, they could make very good shelter. There are references to dragoon and cavalry units on the frontier doing this. Usually, if the camp was to become permanent, brick, adobe, or sawn lumber replaced the temporary log structures in a year or so. Soldiers of the 19th century were laborers more than warriors.
Things were different with the Nordic folk, though. They, and especially the Fins, built log structures for keeps. Plenty of their houses still stand in the areas to which those peoples migrated. Many are large and elaborate. Others, like mine, are small. Most are very well made indeed, on a par with very good timber-framed craftsmanship. The builders were as skilled as timber framers -- it is just that their cultural disposition was to use logs for the whole building.
In case anyone wonders, I have shelves of books of the history of the frontier and early settlement, and could back all this up if I had to, but it would be a lot of effort for something that does not offer course credit.
Joe,
Just so you understand, in no way was I disparaging log homes, or the quality with which many were built. Also didn't mean to slight the Finns or any other nationality I didn't name that has historical architecture of logs off the short list I did name.
There is another thread going about "what do you do for fun".. I read frenchy's "facts". "http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/history/mnstatehistory/"
Oh, I know. I was vehemently agreeing with you, to an excess. The history side of this is of inense interest to me and and I forget that not everyone cares that much.
Joe Sullivan,
I don't think we are that far apart. You just said that many log cabins were temp. structures not built to last.. (Noted exceptions aside which I will give you full credit for) My statements are that relatively few survive. How far apart is that?
Can a log home be built to last? Yes! I think the fact that I've acknowledged that countless times in the past should have you in agreement with me..
Is there potential for log homes to fail? sure!
First there is the issue of settling and while some builders understand it not all do. Second there is the issue of rot.. If you are willing to meet me sometime I think I could retrace my travels looking at log homes that were rotting. I will show you log homes that were built within the last two decades that have either been dramatically rebuilt or simply no longer exist. Not every log home I looked at was rotting but a high enough percentage of them were for me to accept that there must be issues with that sort of construction that causes premature failure.
I've made some assumptions about water vapor.. I believe that water vapor is an issue in every home and unless dealt with causes problems.. Please explain the fault in that thought..
Every Modern home requires a vapor barrier. Explain where the vapor barrier is on a modern log home..
Frenchy:It is possible, although I am speculating here, that water vapor originating indoors may be a relatively small portion of the moisture content of logs in homes. Most log builders today go to a lot of trouble not to seal moisture in. They use exterior coatings that are vapor permiable -- so that the wather that enters the inevitable checks can escape. This was not always the case. Our rot problems were largely because the damp areas of the house could not breathe. This was because for decades my grandmother had a special "log cabin" varnish applied. We have striped this stuff off (a real treat, let me tell you, strippng several coats of varnish off of uneven cylindrical surfaces) and replaced it with a breathable coating.So, here is a conjecture for you: perhaps properly treated logs lose the moisture from inside the same way the do the moisture from outside, while improperly treated wood does not lose moisture very well at all?
Joe Sullivan,
I think you've hit on the answer there. To be completely honest when I was looking at log homes I honestly doubt much thought had gone into the vapor barrier issue on the homes I saw with rot. Pure conjecture on my part but that certainly is possible..
Because Log homes don't have that 5 mil poly vapor barrier stapled up I can easily see someone splashing several coats of Polyurethane on the exterior to "Finish" the logs.. (appropriate word there isn't it?) ;-)
Once water becomes traped by such finishes it must seek an exit point and since it's so very hard to properly seal the ends of logs that then becomes the exit point..
It's far easier to deal with vapor issues with a sheet of poly stapled up early in construction that to educate all log home owners about water vapor issues.
Now add additional moisture into a log home from say a steam bath not vented to the outside (or sauna) a fair amount of tropical houseplants, a humidifier A non vented kitchen, non vented bathrooms and I think you can see my points..
Heck any home built would have vapor barrier issues with those conditions. However hanging that sheet of poly helps other homes but I doubt such thought is given to log homes at all.
Dovetail,
While Sawmills may have been common on eastern rivers powered by falling water, the further west you get fewer saw mills were common.. In Minnesota for example there were sawmills at St Anthony Falls in Minneapolis just before the civil war but if you got more than a day or two away from the sawmill (and a day's ride with a wagon full of lumber was probably about 20 miles) Log homes dominated.. If you recall history that was a period of high imagration and immagrents simply couldn't afford sawmill lumber, but they could afford an Ax and a saw to make log cabins.. In addition trees needed to be cut down in order to open up fields to farm. Trees with their logs were free while sawmill lumber carried a relatively high cost..
It wasn't only immagrents who built log homes, anyone who was starting over with few assets could afford to build log homes but sawmill wood was too expensive.. I forget the exact percentage of farmers to Urban dwellers at the turn of the last century but farmers dominated by well over 80%
I mention only Minnesota but if you go outside cites in Most states log homes dominated construction for the reasons I just gave.. The eastern mountian states, in particular the Southeast log homes dominated. Log homes could be built with an AX and a saw and little cash cost to areas with few cash crops..
Yes, in the great plains sod homes were fairly normal but even there homes near rivers or streams would often be made from logs.
Minnesota's immagration was dominated by Germans and Swedes, (about here my Norwiegan friends chime in and I wisecrack that a Norwiegan is a Sweede without brains * you'll only appreciate the joke if you've been to a million parties and picnics and heard both versions from each group ;-) ) Fins were a relatively small percentage of the immagration population..
Timberframed homes with wattle and mud infill were mainly a european tradition most American timberframes were covered by clapboards..
In the arrid southwest many adobe homes were made, however as you got into the forests of California, Oregon and Washington the first homes were usually log homes for the reasons I mentioned.
Please remeber the high percentage of immagrents to thius country, and the high percentage of farmers to Urban dwellers.. I'm fully prepared to accept that in cities sawmill wood dominated contruction but you must remember that Cities were a small portion of the population..
""Fort Snelling was built between 1819 and 1825 as a frontier outpost to protect United States territorial interests at the time. The presence of the fort brought early settlers to the Saint Anthony Falls area, in an effort to use the waterfall for powering sawmills.""
Qouted from Wikopedia Just to clarify frenchy's idea of "just before the civil war"'
Dovetail,
Thank you for clarifing that, Did you also look up when the first sawmill went in?
Yep ;-)
Fort Snelling
Fort Snelling
Enlarge
Fort SnellingFort Snelling was one of the earliest U.S. military presences in the state. The land for the fort, at the confluence of the Minnesota and Mississippi rivers, was acquired in 1805 by Zebulon Pike. When concerns mounted about the fur trade in the area, construction of the fort began in 1819.[5] Construction was completed in 1825, and Colonel Josiah Snelling and his officers and soldiers left their imprint on the area. They built roads, planted crops, built a grist mill and a sawmill at Saint Anthony Falls, and mediated disputes between Dakota and Ojibwa.[6]
That's a pretty good example of your thought process - make up figures, grabbing them out of thin air to support your pet theories.It's been a fun thread, frenchie - a good diversion for a week. Thanks for playing the fool in this comedy teamup. See ya new time around
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piffan,
You still haven't refuted the main question I mentioned.. which is why does every home made in America deal with the issue of water vapor except log homes..
Sure I did, as has everyone here. You just conveniently ignored it.
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Piffan,
Joe Sullivan just made one of the first reasonable comments I've heard on this subject.
Briefly he said that Vapor proof finishes were put on one of his log homes which effectively trapped moisture in the logs. (he removed it)
Now add vapor from all the sources possible (assuming they weren't vented) things not unusual in modern log cabins like steam baths or saunas and we have a situation whereby rot is extremely likely.
Since Log homes lack the normal poly barrier used in all other construction and all homes would have problems if that were left out (modern tight construction ) I think we are beginning to arrive at a point were my statements were not wrong and the weakness of log home construction is better understood..
To recap.. can modern log homes be built that don't rot?
Yes!
Have they all been built that way in the past?
No.
"Joe Sullivan just made one of the first reasonable comments I've heard on this subject.
Briefly he said that Vapor proof finishes were put on one of his log homes which effectively trapped moisture in the logs. (he removed it)
Now add vapor from all the sources possible (assuming they weren't vented) things not unusual in modern log cabins like steam baths or saunas and we have a situation whereby rot is extremely likely. "
Frenchy, if you take any house and wrap it in Poly on the outside and seal it up, what do you think will happen? That is basically what happened to Joe Sullivan. His finish wasn't breathing right? A breathable finish and it works fine.Back to one of my original points was that you need some decent contractors down your way. If these clowns are building homes with no bathroom ventilation for the moisture then all the homes,not just log homes will have troubles.
I still think you should stick with the sales routine and leave the technical stuff alone.
Westcoast,
Now you are slowing beginning to see the points I've been making..
Vapor is an issue with any home no matter what method is used to build it..
Let's agree on that point, OK?
There normally is poor attention paid to vapor in log homes.. Oh the contractor may put the correct finish on the inside and even the right finish on the outside. However, I don't know of log homes built with dried wood. There may be a few but most are built with green logs because that's when it's easy to peel the bark off, and working with green wood is easier than working with dried wood. Trust me I know this is a fact. I dried all my timbers before putting them up to ensure a minimum amount of checking. As a result I spent 10 times the amount of time it would have taken if I'd put them up green!
Anyway!
Green wood checks when it's drying, it will check first on the inside because that's where the highest stress is during the first heating season, and it will continue to check as the logs reach stability. Those checks are normal but I have never heard of a contractor coming back a year or two later removing the furniture and respraying inside the checks to stop water vapor from entering..
Plus how many log home owners understand that only a certain finish is acceptable due to water vapor issues when it's time to respray the exterior? I'll bet more than a few go to the hardware store or big box store and buy whats on sale..
So we have a situation where vapor issues are made worse.
Show me the fault in that logic!
--
"However, I don't know of log homes built with dried wood."
--More log structures are built in the US with "dry" (19% or lower) wood than with green wood. (by a staggering amount)Even if we preclude milled log structures, the number of log structures built with standing dead timber is rivaling the number of log structures built with green timber.I've said before I believe I could actually coat the exterior of a log structure with a non-permeable finish, such as paint, and have no adverse effects due to interior moisture.The massive quantity of wood in a log structure can handle hundreds of times the amount of moisture that a conventionally framed stick structure can handle. In addition, everyone in the log home industry knows that logs have an abysmal r-value. However, due to the thermal mass of the wood, log structures are not as difficult to heat and cool as one might believe. The logs take in a great deal of energy as they heat up, and release that energy as the air inside the house begins to cool. It is my belief that moisture must also be released with that energy.It would take an incredible amount of airborne interior moisture to begin rotting that much wood. There would be far worse things to worry about in a structure with so much interior moisture.I'm just going to take a leap here and say that log home owners don't need to be concerned about "normal" interior moisture/vapors.
A log-built San Francisco bath house in the early 1980s might have had problems from interior moisture.
Anything else I doubt it.
The kind of moisture 'ole Frenchy is talking about would have the interior furniture and other woodwork practically exploding before your eyes. If the moisture levels are high enough on the inside of a log home to rot logs several inches in diameter can you even begin to imagine its effect on everything else in the house?
I do know a little bit about furniture and interior millwork. And Frenchy is a good bloke too.
Edited 12/19/2006 8:33 pm ET by CStanford
CStanford,
Thank you for your kind words, I'm not trying to be difficult. I have seen log homes rot!
I once wanted one in the worst way, When looking I saw all the homes with rot issues and decided there was a problem with that method of construction..
Not all but enough!
I am prepared to conceed that not all parts of the country have the same issue. Fundamentally it's the dryness of our winter air here.. Home owners in attempting to deal with 3 or 4% indoor air moisture are tempted to pump moisture into the house. They add tropical plants, steam baths or saunas, and humidifers. In addition they may either plug up bathroom vents cooking hoods etc. or not install/use them in the first place..
Add interior wood checks (which occur normally in logs) and you have a vapor entry point.. even if the contactor used the proper miosture barrier in construction Now have a home owner use the wrong paint to finish the exterior of the logs and you have a situation where vapor can get in but not out..
What is the weak link of that? the ends of logs.. Most prone to paint failure! Why? Once the logs are done drying shouldn't they be relatively easy to seal?
"I have seen log homes rot!"So have we all, but it is your reasoning, theory, and imagined facts that are sopping wet.
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OK Piffin,
Explain for me the vapor barrier. Now in a stick built house I can see the sheets of poly stapled to the stud wall before the sheet rock goes on.. My timberframe, I see the barrier in the foam of the SIPs . Each foam block is glued together with it's neighbor and that forms the vapor barrier. An ICF home has a foam barrier as well.
Please don't tell me that they spray a barrier on because as I've said I've never seen a contractor come back every year untill the checking stops to respray the barrier.
I'm not getting involved in this discussion, but you have to read this thread. Amazing! I copied the url from the mongo sawmill discussion. http://www.garymkatz.com/OnTheRoad/HullOaks.htm
Thank You,
I enjoyed the tour. That mill is located about 40 miles south of me.
Beautiful location there. I'm in post industrial, ag, rusting, Ohio.
Grew up In Lakewood.. just west of Cleveland.
One day I hope to move away. No place is perfect, but I'm about ready for some different scenery.
MarkH.
I saw that over at knots, took me wll over an hour to download it (dial up) but wow! wasn't that neat?
Around here trees seldom get much over twnty feet long so a sawmill would starve looking for 80 foooters and a market, but where thy grow I'm amazed!
can you imagine the size of some of those sawmills at the turn of the cntury that were sawing those redwod giants over two hundred fet tall and maybe 10 feet in diameter?
Had to be something to see. But the loggers in the old days felling the giants with crosscut saws and axes were some real men. They were 20 feet up to avoid the gigantic stumps when they were working.
Back in the Eastern Kentucky mountains where I came from, there were gigantic stands of hardwood, now all logged out except for a couple inaccessable areas and a park or two. Lilley Cornett woods is one of the saved areas.
"Explain for me the vapor barrier."A vapour barrier is needed to prevent warm moist air from contacting a cooler condensing surface. So in framed houses, a VB is placed on the interior of the wall and in warm humid climates a VB is needed at the extyerior of the wall.but with logsther eis no need because warm moist air does not move through the wall or the log and suddenly come in contact with any cool condensing surface. There are no individual surfaces separate and independent of other materials in the wall.Moisture moves slowly through the log and gradually changes in temperature or energy. When it is cooler, it slows movement and when warmer it moves more, but it is never locked or trapped in place, and does not condense to turn into liquid water.Any portion of the log where moisture slows enough from the cold to increase the MC of that portion of the wood slightly is also cold enough that it will not support the growth of the micro-organisms that promiote rot.When the weather warms, the movement of the moisture again increases as the log reduces its MCIt is the same phenomena considered with moderate climate homes wheree a VB caan be dipensed with when the insulation is of the proper type, such aas dense packed cellulose, because any moisture that does enter the wall is allowed to later dry out again. the folks at building science document this pretty well.
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Piffan
I read your comments with a great deal of interest.. I carefully am considering them so please elaborate.
If I am Moisture and the inside of a log is at 70degrees and the outside of the log is below zero, isn't there some point whereby Moisture is stopped? Frozen if you will?
Once frozen doesn't that prevent moisture from traveling further? In effect forming a sort of Ice dam?
Wood past the ice dam towards the outside locked solid but wood inside the ice dam recieving whatever moisture is being forced into the wood by vapor pressure? at some point warm enough and moist enough to begin decay.
Now assume that we reach a warming spell. The exterior moisture unfreezes and starts to move out but is prevented from moving out by paint the homeowner/contractor applied.
Is that not a situation whereby rot could begin?
Freezing occurs here sometimes for months at an end. So even if the exterior of the logs had the proper finish the interior of the logs would have months of exposure to moisture..
Isn't the first point whereby a log could begin to dry when the moisture on the outside was lower than the moisture on the inside? Then moisture could start to leave the logs. Depending on location would it be possible that a log would never dry out? I'm saying a log constantly shaded in a relatively high humidity enviornment with a high interior moisture level. (plants, improper venting etc..
I've just listed a worst case scenero to show where it would be possible to rot logs in as little as ten years, however homes all have degrees of problems..
Further I know that it would certainly be possible to build a log home that deals with those issues. Both traditional solid log home and the Hybred log homes I've seen at log home shows.
I wish you could have worn my shoes when I was looking for a log home.. I'll be the first to admit that no one method of construction is totally free of the possiblity of contractor or home owner error causing a problem.. Yet the number of Log homes that I inspected with rot issues was simply too high to be not taken seriously.
If all the logs rotted were low ones I'd say that everybody is right and it's simply a design issue.
That wasn't the case!
"Once frozen doesn't that prevent moisture from traveling further? In effect forming a sort of Ice dam?"Only in your theory. Heat is constantly moving from inside to outside.Even in the arctic, ice will evaporate. It just happens slower.I don't believe that any log ever has a perfect exterior seal no matter what coating is applied to it. Checking and normal movement keep things open anyways.As for your time spending decades doing this research a few hours a night - now you ask us to believe that to get tren thousand hours in on this subject, you have never read anything on any other subject in your adult life. Just admit you are stretching the truth a looooooonnnngg ways
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Piffan,
In the artic I believe logs would last an extremely long time because I doubt that they would reach a tempurature warm enough to decay..
However I didn't give you the artic I gave you the enviornment I live in.. Second heat only goes from inside out when the temp inside is warmer than the temp outside, reverse the situation and heat from the outside will try to get in.. When it's hot here in Minnesota it's also humid as heck! (in part because of our more than 10,000 lakes, plus rivers and streams etc.)
That's a good comment with regard to exterior checking and wood movement.. I'll need to factor that in. Back to you later,,.
Finally there are 24 hours in a day, most people spend at least 6 hours sleeping, one or two is a great night for me. Look at the hours of some of my posts! I love to read! I always have!
But no I read lots of other subjects, as I said I know every second hand book store in the state, plus I have a buddy who has access to countless remandered books that he sells on E bay..Ones he doesn't sell he needs to dispose of somehow. It's hard when I visit him not to come home with a ton of books.
Stretching the trueth? If anything I may have a lot more. I'm just guessing. I've got pictures I took of home construction from around the world, pictures taken when most of my buddies were drinking it up in some bar in the Phillipines or Hong Kong..
When I say decades I don't mean one or two but three or four! Does lying on my back studing the way a barn is made count? heck , maybe then it's 20,000 (OK maybe that's stretching it) Don't forget I can spend as much time as I want watching homes being built because I'm a straight commision salesman, no salary just paid for what I do..
If you spend 15 years of your life doing something 50 hours or more per week you're bound to have learned about it.. Now not all of that 50 hours is spent on log homes but some has.. Add the nights reading and shows attended plus looking for a log home to buy and everything else if I had to pick a round number 10,000 seems modest..
" In the artic I believe logs would last an extremely long time because I doubt that they would reach a tempurature warm enough to decay.. However I didn't give you the artic I gave you the enviornment I live in."What you gave out was a cockeyed theory that the cold would make the moisture freeze and form an ice damn. I gave an example that disproves your thinking as a scientificly observable fact.Youre whjole thing here has been that your location is unique from the rest of the country BECAUSE it is colder than the rest. If you are right, you would be more so in the Arctic because it is yet colder and drier there. You disprove your own theories old boy.So with all those books you have, and all that reading you do, why is it you cannot cite a single one that supports your theory?
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Some of what Frenchy says I agree with. Today's log homes are frequently made with pine logs, and other plantation logs which are not rot resistant at all. Then there is the fact that a lot of the old log houses were sided in the past which preserved them. Also, round logs do not shed water, and most surviving log houses are hewn, round logs were considered for temporary construction.
But I agree with your theory on migration of water vapor within the log walls. If the logs were saturated with moisture on the inside, they will cease to absorb any more moisture, it will not create an interior ice jam. However the ends of the logs are going to absorb moisture from the outside leading to the rot at the end of the log, combined with absorption at the notches. This was the cause of the Home Time log house rot. They used extended logs with unprotected end grain as supports for a structure (I forgot what, a porch roof maybe) which allowed moisture to permeate the interior of the (rot prone pine) logs.
Right - the rot is always from exterior water, not interior moisture, which is frnchies contention.i'm going to let this thread pass into the night, like the taillights on Santa's sleigh. Everything has already been said a dozen times now. If frenchie wants to continue prattling on to satisfy his own ego, that';s fine. I'll just leave the warning for others considering logs to think for themselves and NOT FALL UNDER HIS SPELLand to all, a Good Night!
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Piffan
You are saying things that I never meant to say..
If I said them..
I know log homes rot from contact with the ground, I understand the ends of logs past the overhang can rot.
I undertand if logs aren't properly finished on the outside they can can rot.
However any home needs to control interior vapor as well. What would be the result of building any home without some sort of vapor control in place?
Add interior moisture to other moisture sources and there is the problem.
Mark:This will be my last post on the topic -- but be careful here. My 1931 Minnesota log cabin is about 240 niles and two cold zones north of Minneapolis. It was built by Finns in the old way -- AND USING ROUND LOGS. We have had side rot and end rot. All of it has been in the lower courses of logs, in places where they don't get air circulation. In addition, ALL of the end rot has been in logs that stick out beyond the overhand. Other lod ends are as sound as new and ring when hit with a hammer.
It's probably built of rot resistant timber, and with the logs fitted so they are convex on the bottom to shed water. The act of just notching the logs at the end and chinking the gaps will allow water to wick under the logs.
It is built of untreated white pine, cut in the Max area, and hand skinned by Chippewas. The logs are scribed and fitted to each other, with the bottom of each made concave with an adze so as to fit over the top of the one below. The corners are notched and fitted.
I posted a link to a picture somewhere back in the thread.
This really IS my last post.
One more post, it's likely old growth pine, not the fast grown stuff. Trees grow slow and straight in a forest.
This thread has been a real EPiffany for me. Couldn't resist misspelling your handle, either.
Piffan
Just a couple of quick points,
First I don't know where you live but in the rest of the world when water freezes it doesn't move..
second your last post to me spoke about how no finish could provide a complete vapor barrier on the outside of a log home, which should prove to you that no sprayed on vapor barrier will provide a complete barrier on the inside as well.
Third,
Wood is hydrogyscopic, it absorbs moisture. wood doesn't care if the source of the moisture is inside or outside the house..
Swore I wasn't gonna do this , but I am weak, forgive me Lord.
""First I don't know where you live but in the rest of the world when water freezes it doesn't move..""Hmm, that certainly would explain why my ice cube trays get empty from sitting in the freezer., And the meat gets freezer burn , and my childhood memories of the snow and ice evaporating until it was gone when the temperatures hadn't gotten above freezing for weeks.
Edited 12/23/2006 6:01 pm ET by dovetail97128
But Frunchy spent a billion hours researching log homes/and or water and ice physics.
He knows, trust him. If you don't believe him, he will spend another 200 posts to tell you that he knows.
"He knows, trust him. If you don't believe him, he will spend another 200 posts to tell you that he knows."But with a SINGLE FACT that can be verfied..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Piffan,
OK show me the vapor barrier in a log home and I will be forced to agree with you..
Remember the vapor barrier must remain in place continually in order to function, checks unless treated defeat the barrier.
I will repeat."OK show me the vapor barrier in a log home and I will be forced to agree with you.."What is the difference between a vapor barrier and a vapor retarder?What is the meaning of Perm.What is the perm of the logs?What does the ability of walls to dry have to do with rot?How can log homes dry?.
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"OK show me the vapor barrier in a log home and I will be forced to agree with you."how many times you want this explained? I think I've done three different ways of explaining it now.Did you have trouble paying attention in school too?
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twofingers,
You see, that is the attitude assumed by those who either want or have a log home.. Somehow it's differant..
Every other home in America has to deal with vapor issues but log homes don't.
Second, what in gods name makes you think that 19% miosture in wood is dry?
dry is 7% moisture or less, in the winter here in Minnesota it is often down around 4% and sometimes less! If you doubt me please click on the word Knots in the upper right hand corner of this screen and go over there, they understand wood. Just ask them if 19% moisture is dry..
At least you aren't fooled by the word thermal mass.. You see thermal mass is a two edged sword. Sure it will release heat into the interior, it will also release heat to the exterior! If you doubt me, please take the tempurature of a log intdoors and then on a cold day take the exterior tempurature. Hmm, it's the nearly the same as the outside air temp isn't it? The word nearly should be a big hint, indicating interior heat is being lost to the outside. Since wood has an "R" value around.2 per inch you would need logs 36 inches thick to equal typical insulational values..
So the average home with say 12 inch logs will pump out three times the heat loss that a well insulated home will..
You may have a point with regard to the ability of all that wood to handle moisture, sure it can and if it remains below about 14% moisture no mold or rot will occur, once that is exceeded please beaware that mold and rot need three things to occur, first a food source (the wood itself) second heat (we just discussed that) and third air.. , Not much but a tiny bit.
However once the moisture in the logs exceeds 14% rot starts. Since it doesn't occur like someone turning on a light switch log home owners assume that it's not there..
Now how do we get 14 % moisture? Plants, people, cooking, showers, baths, humidifiers,Improperly vented dryers, steam baths or saunas. Stuff that occurs if people live in a home..
Sure you can properly deal with it with vents and air to air exchangers, air leaks and even gaps between logs.. If all those steps are taken (and maintained) most likely a log home will be fine!
Now why did I see so many rotted log homes when I was looking to buy? Well most ly they weren't dalt with. (that was long before air to air exchangers were common) and heating costs were paid attention to back then so I'm sure that there those who dumped moisture in the air in an attempt to humidify things..( plus owners were concerned about the cost of heating)
Edited 12/20/2006 11:03 am ET by frenchy
" Every other home in America has to deal with vapor issues but log homes don't."No one has said that. But you keep saying that others have said it.Show me where they said it.Now what is the difference between a Vapor Barrier and Vapor Retarder?What is PERM?What is the PERM of logs?Where does the dewpoint in a log house occure?What does the ability to dry have to do with log houses?How does a log home dry?"However once the moisture in the logs exceeds 14% rot starts.""Now how do we get 14 % moisture? Plants, people, cooking, showers, baths, humidifiers,Improperly vented dryers, steam baths or saunas. Stuff that occurs if people live in a home.."Based on the 14% moisture level IN THE WOOD that would requie a RH of 75%. That is not a house. It is a steam bath in the jungle.http://www.csgnetwork.com/emctablecalc.htmlBut where did you get the 14% from.20% EMC in the wood is generaly reconnized as the minimum needed to support rot.http://www.alsnetbiz.com/homeimprovement/woodrot.html"The most effective "method" of preventing fungal deterioration of wood is to keep it dry. Most fungi need a wood moisture content of at least 20% to carry on. With the moisture content of wood indoors over most of the United States cycling annually between 6% and 16%, it's too dry for most microorganisms to get started. ".
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann,
water vapor..
If you are telling me that the coatings put on logs acts as a suitable vapor barrier I'd accept that, just as soon as I see a contractor hauling furnature out of a log house every year to respray another coating into all the checks that occur normally as logs dry..
Otherwise there is an entry point for vapor..
Same with the exterior.. If I never saw a homeowner painting his logs with housepaint or stain I'd accept that moisture cannot get trapped in the logs..
75% humidity to get 14% moisture? Over what time period? We all know that a little water spilt can be quickly wiped up without harm to a surface but put that same surface underwater for six months and harm does occur.. We are not speaking about just six months here but a decade.. or more.
Actaul point where rot occurs varies from wood species to species. tannic acid in some woods nearly completely prevent it and other woods it may be as low as 14% again the period we are speaking about is decades.. If normal moisture varies from 6 to 16% then there are periods where moisture must be at 100% fog, rain, low clouds. or extremely high following a rain or melting snow for example.
Since all wood is hydrogyscopic (Hope I spelled it correctly) and absorbs moisture from anyplace including exterior checks or bare spots. It will absorb moisture no matter what! Normally that wouldn't be an issue. However if we add a fair amount on interior moisture to the moisture from the outside and the conditions exist that will allow the moisture to remain, weeks of raining melting snow or near a high humidity area etc. the potential for rot to start has just occured..
Rot once begun can go dormant and reactiveate later as conditions allow. It does not require continuous high levels of humidity to occur. Nor do prolonged dry spells "fix" wood
Go over to woodenboat to get more information or a more technical explaination if you seek clarification..
Edited 12/20/2006 12:51 pm ET by frenchy
"Actaul point where rot occurs varies from wood species to species. tannic acid in some woods nearly completely prevent it and other woods it may be as low as 14% again the period we are speaking about is decades.. If normal moisture varies from 6 to 16% then there are periods where moisture must be at 100% fog, rain, low clouds. or extremely high following a rain or melting snow for example."Again you know nothing about moisture or how it is measure.You will never find a piece of wood at 100% moisture level.NEVER..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann,
you really need to select your battles a little better, I was speaking about weather not wood when I wrote that and yes 100% humidity does exist..
"I was speaking about weather not wood when I wrote that and yes 100% humidity does exist..""If normal moisture varies from 6 to 16% then there are periods where moisture must be at 100% fog, rain, low clouds. or extremely high following a rain or melting snow for example."Then you are saying that normal moisture in the air is 6 to 16%..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann,
well,wood doesn't have fog or low clouds in it..
He also uses spilled water to make an arguement about relative humidity - vapours in the air - when they have differences he ignores.
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There is some connection here with frenchy that will explain it all. Sorta like the Unified Theory.I am still working on it.But it all has to do with log houses, cell phones, S-DRY (Shipped dry) lumber, Furniture and Select wood (first and 2nds to the rest of the world), moisture in the air, moisture & celulose insulation, moisture in wood, and telemarketers.There is one simple explanation that makes it all make sense in frenchy's world.Just have not figured out the secrete key yet..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill,
Lifted this qoute of frenchy's off another thread, maybe it will help explain. Maybe not too.
""The wood at a lumberyard is typically around 19% moisture.. (KD 19 means Kiln dried to 19% moisture plus or minus 2 points) a growing tree may be only a few points higher.""
Again he is wrong.And there are many messages that have pointed that out in the past.http://forums.prospero.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=72161.33
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=72079.16
.
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Bill Hartmann,
You manage to take more stuff out of context then any three people.. I know that We have differant political opinions and it's apparently important for you to find fault with everything I say or you might have to accept the faults of your politcal party.
That's OK I respond in good humor.
But really a few posts earlier you misread my staement about weather and assumed I said that wood could get to 100% moisture. You jumped all over that..
Now you show me where you found some source that suposedly says wood can get over 100% moisture citing cottonwood as an example..
Which is it?
"But really a few posts earlier you misread my staement about weather and assumed I said that wood could get to 100% moisture."I never missread it. I only copied what you posted."Now you show me where you found some source that suposedly says wood can get over 100% moisture citing cottonwood as an example.."If you knew what the definition of moisture content in wood was and what the mesasurement of humidity in the air was (RH-relatively humidity) then you would know why you could not have more than 100% RH, but more than 100% moisture in wood..
.
Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha, Ha! Now you've got yourself arguing with the Forestry council and lumber associations.7% is dry for furniture quality hardwood.But for framing lumber, which is what logs are, the standard for kiln dried is 19% ON THE SURFACE!
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Show me the fault in that logic!
You are about as smart as a postage stamp! The fault in all your logic in that post is that at the beginning of this thread you proceded to tell someone not to get a log home cause there are serious moisture issues and they can rot out in as little as ten years.
Do you remember writing that garbage?
The only thing you have been able to come up with is contractor errors or homeowner errors. So basically any home be it a stick built, log home or your beloved timber frame can rot out in ten years from what you are saying. So why have you gone on and on about log homes when actually you know nothing about them?
West coast,
Contractor errors?
homeowner errors?
OK that's one way to look at it.. Yet I pointed out that I wanted to buy a log home myself. So I like the concept.. Yet my inspection of many many log homes revieled a large number of them with rot issues.. so many that in the end I concluded that they were somehow flawed..
That flaw is vapor control.
I since have built a double timberframe which keepsall wood either completely inside the vapor envelope or completely ouitside the envelope.
I've given my logic and nobody has thus far showed me where it's wrong..
I will say this. under certain conditions a log home could be built that wouldn't have rot issues.. For the vast majority of those of us who live in the extreme cold weather that is common in the the upper midwest a log home is more likely to rot than other construction techniques..
Since I do not live on the west coast I am not commenting about your location.
Well i live in a cold part of Canada and there is no rotting problems with log homes other than from splash-up from rain or not enough overhangs or the home is built too close to the ground.
If guys are building homes with no fans that seems like a contractor error doesn't it? And if a homeowner paints on a finish that doesn't allow moisture to escape that would seem like a homeowner error too. My log home is 44-45 years old and there is no rot. You have only given your opinion, there is nothing logical about it. Everyone has tryed to show you where you are wrong but you are too stubborn to admit that you are wrong.
I think it must be the fog he lives in from all the moist hot air.
For further humor, I recommend the reading of one of my all-time BT favorites; a very insightful thread from yore....
58727.1
Gretzky,
Then show me the vapor barrier. You claim I know nothing about log homes because I disagree with you that log homes can have more of a rot problem because of the lack of a vapor barrier.
If you'd simply show me the vapor barrier and I'd be forced to agree with you..
Remember any vapor barrier must remain in place continually, checks unless treated defeat the vapor barrier.
Westcoast,
I know nothing about them?
Please explain to me your credentials.. are you a log home engineer?
Just so you understand my credentials, I have been selling equipment to log home builders (and others) for over 15 years.. To be successfull in sales you need to know enough about the contractors needs that you can provide them with good information otherwise they will never spend the sort of money that my equipment costs..
I needed to understand how log homes are built, issues dealing with log homes and how my equipment will make the builders more profitable..
Traditionally log homes are prebuilt, taken apart, hauled to a site, and assembled.. (not all but most commerically built ones) once on the site a crane is called in and logs lifted into place..
A telehandler is capable of doing that in a lot less space than a crane. Thus allowing a contractor to access sites not accessable to cranes. In addition a telehandler can be used for a fraction of what a crane costs. Knowledge of site limitations and load capaicities etc. call for tremendous degree of knowledge of the build technioques, repair techniques and actaul construction methods used by log home builders.
I wanted a log home long prior to that..so I did my research.. I went into depth that few buyers ever do. I'd guess that I have nearly 10,000 hours researching aspects of log homes.. looking at their strengths and weaknesses (every home has them) and considering DIY, versis kits, versis contractor built.. I actaully found a log home that meets my requirements with regard to vapor barriers and insulational qualities,..
If I could have found enough of them built to confirm the theory I would have bought a log home..
So far it's now been over 10 years since I gave up on owning a log home and while I no longer seek that technique of log construction, Only rarely do I see it sold in log home/timberframe shows that I attend regularly
OK, so you spent three whole years of your life ten hours a day doing absolutely nothing else but researching aspects of log homes so you could sell telehandlers to log constructors.That is either a lie or false economy.ten thousand hours- yeah, right!
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LOL, I figured 5 yrs at 2000 hrs. a yr. Amounts to 50 weeks @ 40 hrs. a week , I was willing to give him two weeks off a year for persistence.
dovetail,
try decades for a few hours a night..
Ever notice the hours some of my posts are made at?
I sleep relatively little and reading is the one thiong i can do at night which does not distrurb the others in my house.
Piffan,
When you make an assumption and based on that assumption call me a liar you are showing your lack of forethought..
No I did not spend three years of my life dedicated to learning about log homes, I've spent decades of my life doing research and reading. A Few hours a night, I sleep relatively little. Reading is the one thing I can do which doesn't disturb others in my house. Ever Notice the times some of my posts are at?
While I have disposed of all but a relative handfull of books on the subject at one time there were hundreds of books stacked on my shelves.. Books and phamplets and sales literature on shelves in boxes and scattered around.. I know all the second hand books stores in the state!
False economy?
Well you may certainly be correct. No interest or hobby I know of makes economic sense..
Mon Frere, n'est bon homme il a tu' por sans oblique' proposition, ces't bon et tu ceasant la oblique' position' de l a loggeue frabrique . Su est the programme du bien, farts in yor face'..Give it up. You lost, non chien, non fatalle'. non petrimont.
Frenchy, MY HOUSE IS log, WE live, nope for the exhaust fans, yes a wood stove, yes a bunch of insulation betwix the logs, but you are so jaded, youy miss the points of reason..My house is over 150 yrs old, in KY, just south of you..
You are as off base, as my French..please give up, for the benefit of those pilgrims that need the band width of this forum to truly make a serious conscienceable decision about their options, when contemplating the proper erection of a quality home, without your unsubstantiated claims of abject horror.
If You, want to point to failures, I suggest, you shud or get off the pot, I mean you are now inviting a class action suit? Or why do you want to stir the pot? Would YOU like it IF I Accused YOU of being deficient IN YOUR MODE OF BEING?
This what you are proposing, THE MODE..not the execution, nor the Completion...This how Lawyers make a buck..you'd be better to be silent from here on in, I smell Jim Barna Log Homes on your tail, but you didn't hear that from me...nope, not me..I can't even spell malicious information or those other Mal- pheasants that you expounde upon this forum, by touting your limited if any observances, that are based soley on your un witnessed and biased approach to this subject.
Tell ya what..I'll have Jim call ya..he'll have his lawyer on speaker phone with ya..you best back it up with criteria and reason, else you get slammed for talking out your azz on an international forum of peers and prospective customers...My $$ rides on an International log home builder, he'll chew you up and spit you out like a flax seed in his teeth...
You want his Ph#? or should I let his lawyers find you in Mn?
I know who built your "worse case" scenario, and I'llbet. he'd LOVE to get ahold of you, blabbing about a design issue on a world wide venue, he'd LOVE you, oh yeah..he'd love you.
STFU now, because he lurks here. Take that a s a heads up.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sphere,
Threats have no place on this forum,
If you believe I've misbehaved then turn it over to the forum moderator.
That is not a threat, it was a warning for you, take it as a service from me, to you.
Do you think one of the Nations largest Log Home Builders will NOT eat you alive for spouting errors about the very stuctures they build?
Cya, i am done with your halfazzed mis-information and out right falsehoods.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
Sphere,
errors?
Let's see I said that log homes rot, so far many have commented that they do rot and we are simply debateing why they rot..
Piffan for example said that no coating was perfect, he was speaking about the outside and my comment was regarding the inside but since wood is hydrogyscopic and aborbs moisture if it comes from the inside or outside it really doesn't matter does it?
I think we've all agreed that wet wood isn't a good thing..
Now the only point left in contention is it possible for enough water vapor to come from the inside to contribute towards rotting..
This is ME not getting into your blender. Good bye, good luck, good night.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
I have irriatable Vowel syndrome.
I needed to understand how log homes are built, issues dealing with log homes and how my equipment will make the builders more profitable..
Traditionally log homes are prebuilt, taken apart, hauled to a site, and assembled.. (not all but most commerically built ones) once on the site a crane is called in and logs lifted into place..
A telehandler is capable of doing that in a lot less space than a crane. Thus allowing a contractor to access sites not accessable to cranes. In addition a telehandler can be used for a fraction of what a crane costs. Knowledge of site limitations and load capaicities etc. call for tremendous degree of knowledge of the build technioques, repair techniques and actaul construction methods used by log home builders.
Wow amazing credentials you have! Hahahahahaha!
Seems to me that you are a salesman that knows what a jobsite consists of!!
I guess that taught you all about moisture problems in homes!!! Too funny.
Merry Christmas and all the best in the New Year.
Gretzky,
Are you a log home engineer? What other than owning one are your credentials?
Listen dude, i told you right off the bat what i do. I am not the one trying to explain some mythical theory that only exists in your brain to all these other people on this thread.
Look back it was you who had to start the " well i sell used cars to the log home people and i spent 1 billion hours researching ...." blah blah , friggin blah.
Not once have you had anyone back up one statement or bit of knowledge that you like going around and telling people that you have.
You have not provided one link to some website or anything with any facts in it. All you have done is provide some opinion which everyone else feels is wrong. Don't you think someone else would back up your statements?
Just because you sit up at night and read books does not give you a more informed opinion over mine does it? Why not come up to Canada and find out why we have so many log homes that are not rotting out prematurely.
Log homes do not rot out unless built badly.
Frenchy, please tell me that post wasn't an explanation of your credentials. You don't need to try and tell us how much you know about log homes because you sell equipment to then and must know about the construction. You are only making yourself look very foolish to everyone with those statements and then to go on about ten thousand hours of research! C,mon Frenchy you are going to lose all credibility with garbage like that.
If in your research you have found anything why can you not post some facts of this rot, or maybe pictures of these log homes in Minnesota that rot from the top down.
P.S. I didn't know one could become a "log home engineer". Are you serious or is this another one of your theorys? My niece is in engineering in UBC right now on her last year, i will ask her on boxing day if she knows any!
"log home engineer"Hey, I used to be one. Had Lionel train with a log car. And it would dump the logs on to a loader that had a conver that took them up to the top and reloaded the car.http://www.trains.com/ctt/default.aspx?c=a&id=569
http://tinyurl.com/vhqn3So I guess that made me a log engineer. At least when I was 10..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
PS.None of those logs rotted either..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"
PS.
None of those logs rotted either"
Hey Bill maybe it wasn't cold enough to form an ice dam inside the log! Unless you are in Alaska then it is too cold to form an ice dam. Or maybe that was.......maybe frenchy knows!
Lol, now i know what a log home engineer is!!
Despite being only ten years old Bill, i don't think that your designation ever expires!
Did you have one of those funny looking caps too? Gotta look the part too!
P.S. i just emailed my niece who is finishing up her engineering studys and copied your post just to inform her that she is wrong! There are log home engineers!
The main difference i find about living in a log home is that the logs hold a lot of warmth. If we lose power it takes a lot longer for the house to cool down than it does in a regular built home.
Me? California?There you go making things up again!You have no understanding of dew points. The moisture does not suddenly stop in a log because theere is no suden temperature change. There is always heat energy moving out slowly through the log and it is ontinually carrying moisture with it because of the even R value through the entire thickness of the log. It may slow down for a few days in a cold snap, but unl;ess you wrap your log home in plasti, it will not be trapped in the log
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Not to beat a dead horse here but...Yes, log structures can absolutely begin to rot in as little as 5 - 10 years. There is just no arguing that point. At all.However, every instance of log rot that occurs in such a short period of time is due to a serious design flaw.Now, about this whole interior moisture causing log rot...It seems to me, that if interior moisture were the culprit of log rot, the damage would be more uniform throughout the structure. I'm not a heating guy or an engineer, but if moist interior air egressing through the log was causing the log rot - then the damage would occur in the upper portions of the home in the same amount as the lower portions of the home.This just isn't how it happens though. You got a better chance of seeing Santa Claus poking Rudolph in the rear with a peavey than to see log damage occur in the upper courses or gable logs.It just doesn't happen.Log rot almost ALWAYS occurs in these areas on the south and west sides of the structure:Lower courses, corners, under windows, dormer walls where log ends are in contact with roofing material, and protruding log ends and areas where obvious construction blunders led to long term contact with excess moisture (such as a roof shedding water directly onto the logs.The log rot in the Hometime episode was just a classic blunder in log construction - there were protruding log ends in the lower half of the structure with no protection.As far as the rot in southern dovetail log homes, even those made from oak, more have rotted than have been saved. The ones that made it were the ones with large porches, wide overhangs and usually the ones that had mortar stuffed between the courses for the shortest period of time.This interior moisture egress leading to log rot is just another one of those "Log Home Myths," that serves to confuse potential and current owners.(Santa Claus, Rudolph, peavey? wtf. Too much coffee this morning I guess)
Edited 12/14/2006 6:35 am ET by twofingers
two fingers,
Thank you, you've added a great deal to this discussion, frankly I hadn't noticed a trend of which logs failed first in modern construction.. Yes I tend to agree that logs in contact with the ground or near the ground suffer most but I'd assumed that was because of poor design features such as earth contact or splash back issues..
Would you say that predominent direction of wind or something else causes the southern and western logs to fail or is it simply UV exposure? Where are you located so I can factor that in to this discussion..
--"Would you say that predominant direction of wind or something else causes the southern and western logs to fail or is it simply UV exposure?"--UV degradation plus wind driven moisture. The areas of log rot aren't too difficult to understand - the lower portions of the home rot because they see the most water. They rot under the windows because wind driven rain gets in and around the window and just never dries out.In response to one of your other posts - you'd have a tough time convincing log home owners in northern New Jersey that Chestnut log homes are resistant to rot. The state is rife with rotten chestnut log structures. Many of these structures were used only as weekend retreats or summer cabins. In many of them you could feel the wind blow from inside the home.Therefore, it does not seem likely that interior moisture egress could have been the culprit. In New Jersey, wood boring beetles do a lot of the damage - turning the logs, quite literally, into dust.The worst cases of rot are when the logs reach sufficient moisture content to become palatable to insects - particularly ants and boring beetles.I am always open to new ideas, or concepts that can lead to better log home design and I try to allow for all possibilities. But in this case, I just can't locate any evidence that would support the theory that log homes rot from the inside out.Like I've said before, it's just one more log home myth the log home industry has to fight.
hijack!Speaking of log home myths like "Log rot happens due to interior moisture."Here's a couple more for ya --"Cedar log homes don't need to be protected with a finish and they will last much longer than a pine log home.""Our logs don't require chinking because they are milled tongue and groove." (This is my favorite one ever. I've heard a hundred log home sales guys say this. At least it will keep the log repair guys in business for the foreseeable future!)
twofingers,
I think we can agree that poor construction techniques tend to dominate the failure of log homes nation wide, however Why do all homes except log homes need to control their interior moisture issues thru vapor barriers except log homes?
Yes, I'll grant you that they are poorly insulated (pure log homes) compared to most construction. Yes they can leak all sorts of air and that may provide vapor with an escape path other than the logs. But assuming a great deal of attention has been paid to sealing up a log home for low heating bill reasons where does the water vapor go if not thru the logs? (None of those I saw that were failed had air exchangers in them )
two fingers,
Sorry, I didn't respond to all of your issues.. Recently we've had a lot of issues here with regard to death watch beatles boring thru oak. So not all white oak is decay resistant as it used to be. Yes chestnut isn't as decay resistant as white oak but it is definately more decay resistant than pine is..
Log homes are a wildly differant story in most cases, are we speaking about modern log construction placed on a basement or a log cabin in the woods placed on some rocks with a dirt floor..
What construction techniques have been used, how dry were the logs prior to construction, What material were they? What techniques were used to deal with settling, what sort of finish is applied to the inside how are they chinked? where are they located, what sort of weather is present, what sort of exposure to sunlite and winds..
Yes damp wood plus insects means failure. We are in agreement there.. The sole issue at question seems to be is modern living more inclined to have issues with moisture than our forefathers had?
Not all stick built homes suffer from Mold issues regardless of the techniques used in construction, I suspect that not all modern log homes have issues with regard to vapor issues as well..
You have just explained pefectly how the interior moisture situation works. If in a regular house and you have a hole in the vapor barrier, warm air goes through and hits the cold sheathing and that causes the condensation.
Log home the warm air slowly enters the log and at no time does it get a chance to turn to condensation.
I recall a part of my understanding on this came from a two hour lecture by the guy who wrote "My house is killing me". Jeff something or otherHe spoke long and fluently about rot and mold and its causes and to a lesser degree about chemical traces - sick house syndrome, etc.When it came to the Q&A at the end, one of the questions posed was related to dew point location in a wall re foams and cellulose denspack. A s a part of his answer, to illustrate, he said, "Have you ever seen a log house rot from the inside out? No, and you never will, here's why - " and he proceeded to say similar to what you mention.
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PiffinI believe Frenchy 100%. You have to realize that he is talking about MN which is different than the rest of the world.It is well know that all of the students there are above average.And according to frenchy if you put out a pile of celulose insulation that it will start to collect moisture until it rains inside.This is such a special phenomenon that scientist have given it a special term; The Lake Wobegon Effect.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Wobegon_effect
.
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
BillHartmann,
When you resort to abusive sarcasm rather than logic or facts I know I have made my points.
While you are always free to interject whenever you disagree and seem to have limitless time to find internet sources for data. Hopefully you can find the flaw in my logic..
Why does every home built need to deal with vapor issues except log homes?
"When you resort to abusive sarcasm rather than logic or facts I know I have made my points. "Because I am tired of continuely posting FACTS.I have never seen you post a FACT that turns out to be true." Why does every home built need to deal with vapor issues except log homes?"I NEVER SAID THAT.SHOW ME WHERE I SAID THAT.That is just more of the "facts" that you have made up..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
Piffan,
Am I mistaken or did you just make my arguement for me?
Explain why every home made needs to address the issue of water vapor except log homes? I've yet to see poly sheets on the inside of logs. Any spray on/brushed on vapor barrier would become moot as soon as the logs checked wouldn't it? Logs in log homes do check don't they? Once in the log assuming a good coat of paint or other sealant on the outside moisture will remain inside the log untill the moisture finds a way out.. the easiest way out of a log may be thru the ends, since those tend to be the hardest to seal and the first to fail..
Don't even waste your time with this guy. He knows nothing but wants people to think he knows something so he comes up with some disillusioned idea of log homes rotting out in ten years! lol!
Well, this is your 3rd post here, and before you even bother to fill out a profile, you're taking potshots.
Got anything constructive to contribute, or you just one of those guys who walks in off the street to a local bar in a strange town and starts shootin' his mouth off?
Not a healthy beginning.
Ok me bad, sorry. No more potshots from the fringe.
As I mentioned, I own one log house in the north woods of Minnesota (about 240 miles north of Minneapolis)that is over 70 years old, and am about to get a second one that is about 160 years old. Both have had rot. Neither has had interior rot or rot in mid-log. In both cases. rot has been a) in the lower courses of logs, where the logs are not exposed to sun and wind; b) in protruding log ends; and c)in places where water splashes up, such as right by steps, propane tanks and so on.The worst rot was in a sheltered area facing a heavly wooded hill. It almost never gets direct sun, even in winter. Snow drifts there. The building itself and its situation break the wind very effectively. Over the years, the soil level had come up to the top of the foundation. The rotted logs in that spot went up about 2 1/2 feet above the foundation level. The worst of them were 50% rotted, all on the outside half. The inside facing halves are hard and sound. We started repairs in 1997, so the damage had been 66 years in the making.We repaired this by doing the following: lowering the level of the soil by several inches; putting in a french drain the length of the house on that side to dry the soil faster; stripping off the old varnish; repairing the rot with dimensional lumber capped with epoxy shaped like the logs; treating the bare logs with a penetrating borate solution; and recoating the house with one of the log-specific exteior finishes that is vapor permiable. Fact is, the most dangerous source of moisture for rot is vapor from the soil. There are borate products available on the market that can be inserted into the lower courses or logs so as to release fungicide whenever the moisture content of the log gets critical. These are reported to be very effective.Bottom line, if you have a well-made house, with good wide roof overhangs and a way to get water away from the foundation, you keep the roof in good shape, you use a vapor-permiable exterior coating, and you use other available pracautions against rot in the lower logs your house will outlive however young you may be.One other thing to be careful about is foundation plantings that might tend to respire moisture, or hold it near your logs.
Gretzky,
OK, Explain to me why log homes don't need vapor barriers while every other home made does.
Once you accept that tell me where the vapor barrier is on log homes..
Listen dude, i don't know what rock you crawled out from but i live in a log home that my dad had built in 1962 on this farm and there is not one bit of rot in it yet. Four foot overhangs and she is a thing of beauty still.
I wonder if you have heard of a place called Canada but that is where i am and we have a couple log homes up here! And yes it is cold too. I have two children, full laundry and house plants too! Bathroom fans are good inventions aren't they?
I am a truck driver so i am not about to get into some building science talkabout that i know very little about. There seems to be lots of quality people with all the answers you need.
Why do you go on and on about this with no evidence or links to info? Probably because it is just your opinion and nothing is based on facts. Show us some proof please.
Gretzky,
I cannot comment about your home. I've never seen it and I don't know what steps were taken to deal with water vapor issues..
You mention bathroom fans, That certainly is a start. It's been an extremely long time since I seriously considered log homes and I simply cannot state with any clarity which homes were properly ventilated and which weren't.
You may have brought up a valid point.. One experiance that is common with most log homes is a wood burning fireplace.. I'm pretty sure that an open fireplace tends to dry out the air in a house. If you combine winter heat, an open fireplace, and wood logs (wood is hydrogyscopic, it absorbs moisture) the people living in a log home might tend to add more moisture into the air than is proper.. They may have unvented bathrooms, dump the air from an electric drier into the house, have no vent over the stove etc.. We all know that excess moisture leads to mold in normal homes, isn't it possible that mold could be inside the logs?
>> You mention bathroom fans, That certainly is a start. It's been an extremely long time since I seriously considered log homes and I simply cannot state with any clarity which homes were properly ventilated and which weren't. <<
Every home needs a bathroom fan and hood fan for cooking, that much is for sure.Does this satisfy your requirement for a properly vented home?
>>You may have brought up a valid point.. One experiance that is common with most log homes is a wood burning fireplace.. I'm pretty sure that an open fireplace tends to dry out the air in a house. If you combine winter heat, an open fireplace, and wood logs (wood is hydrogyscopic, it absorbs moisture) the people living in a log home might tend to add more moisture into the air than is proper.<<
What point is valid? The one about a bathroom fan? In Alberta here gas is the cheapest. Gas furnace, gas range, gas hotwater and gas fireplace is what i have.
Gretzky,
If I recall you claimed not to have any rot in your log home.. I'll accept your statement. Answer me a few questions and I think I can point out why you don't have rot problems..
First what sort of humidifier do you use?
Second how many houseplants do you have? (express it in gallons of potted plants, ie, you would require say 30 small cup sized potted plants to equal a gallon..) consider too the water requirements of each plant. A cactus for example wouldn't need nearly the water a tropical plant would..
third, You've said that you've addressed the issue of water vapor from major sources of water, bathrooms, and kitchen have you also addressed the issue of water vapor from other sources? say the laundry room etc.
Is it possible that the log homes I visited didn't address those issues as well as you have? Is it also possible that they have additional sources of water vapor we haven't mentioned, say a steam bath or sauna?
Gretzky my point is that because you have one of the ones that doesn't have issues with rotting doesn't mean that all log homes are free from rotting does it?
I go back to my main question, why since every other home needs to deal with water vapor does a log somehow escape from the norm?
>> First what sort of humidifier do you use?<<
Don't have one. Do i need one?
>> Second how many houseplants do you have?<<
I have none! But my wife has four big plants and eight or ten smaller ones i guess.
>> third, You've said that you've addressed the issue of water vapor from major sources of water, bathrooms, and kitchen have you also addressed the issue of water vapor from other sources? say the laundry room etc.<<
I haven't addressed nothing, doesn't every house need a bath fan and a kitchen fan? Don't think we need a fan in the laundry area.
>> I go back to my main question, why since every other home needs to deal with water vapor does a log somehow escape from the norm? <<
I did wrap all the interior logs with 6mm poly and tuck tape the seams.
"am a truck driver so i am not about to get into some building science talkabout that i know very little about. "since you live in one, you already know more about log home building science than frenchy does.
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"since you live in one, you already know more about log home building science than frenchy does."No comment. But just realize that I am laughing my a$$ off..
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Hey every group has to have one. And I have been elected to be the one. I should make that my tagline.
"...the elect and plumbing are done ..."From his second line.I don't believe this is an issue. I have done rot repair in log homes, some over a hundred years old. In every case, it was the lower logs where they were subject to splashup near the ground or a deck with no gutter protection.As a matter of fact, the more common criticism of log homes is that they leak air at the seams, making it too well ventilated, now comes you along saying something that suggests that they are too tight...Well, a good log home is like a good woman. Beautiful to behold, well stacked, nicely laid, and changes with the weather!
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You are allowing for shrinkage of the logs, so as your walls get shorter, your interior walls don't get crushed, right?
I'm unfamiliar with your application, but I know that some polyurethanes will turn yellow over time. Water base is not supposed to change, but some are unnatural looking, sort of a bluish tint.
We did exactly what you are about to do 25 years ago in our cabin, w. cedar logs, r. cedar 2 X 6 tg roof, pine floor. Of course we didn't have HVLP back then, but I did think about setting a time delay on a can of polyurethane and closing the doors. Still looks great today. I would suggest diluting your first coat, and not sanding (if you need to) until after your second coat. The first is too thin, and you'll just raise too much wood. HVLP sounds good, just try to air it out as much as possible and wear an organic filter cartridge type respirator.
thanks wane, I have the resperator, if that don't work to good I thought I would look into a Forced air resperator
My house is similar. We have the waterborne poly finish inside. Chose that because easier for wife to apply and it does not darken as much over time.
if you spray, it would be better to back brush it though. I am much more of a brush man anyway tho. Definitely sand between coats, but back brushing will amke that go easier
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
The lawyer we use says he has won a lot of cases against log homes. He told us to stay away from them. You could always side the exterior with the product that looks like logs (they are) but they are flat on the back. Just a thought.
This is just silly.I note that my posts are being ignored in the fracas, although I seem to be one of two on this thread who actually owns a log house that is older than most of the people who are venturing opinions. The fact that I can sit in it and stay warm and dry, hang pictures on the wall, and hang lights from the ceiling is proof that it did not rot and fall down.Perhaps no one active on this thread has heard of a cold nordic place called Finland, where for centuries the primary housing was made of logs, often flattened and finished to a very high standard. Many houses made by immigrant Fins in Minnesota are still standing, some over 100 years old. I have a book that lists many of them, but it is 1300 miles away, in my own nice, dry, 70-yr-old Fin-built Minnesota log house.There are many ways to build log houses incorrectly. There are also ways to build them to last for generations. SOme of the incorrect techniques will lead to rot. Of course, ANY house built incorrectly will rot. Incorrect maintenance canlead to rot as well. Of course, that, too is true in any house.I might add that there are far more log cabins and houses still standing than meet the eye. Many are at the core of larger structures that were added on over the centuries (yes, centuries). Others have been sided in sawn lumber at some point. In my corner of the north woods, I know of other log houses that are older than mine. Some need work, others are in pretty good shape.One of the big problems for 20th century log homes was the ill-judged use of incompatible materials -- concrete chinkng, exterior coatings thaat sealed in moisture, and so on.
Edited 12/14/2006 10:01 am ET by Joe Sullivan
Actually, IIRC, the oldest wood structure still standing is a log church in either Russia or Finland that is ca. 12th century.
That rings a bell.
Here is a link to some good photos of the Chippewa National Forest Supervisor's office, a magnificant 3 story 8,500 sg ft. LOG structure made of red pine under the supervision of Fin log craftsmen in 1935. the building is still in excellent shape, and is one of the treasures of Minnesota.http://www.fs.fed.us/r9/forests/chippewa/contact/supervisor_office.php
Yeah. Right on Joe.Properly built log structures last a looooong time.Now, if we could only find someone who could build one right ;-)However, ----
"I note that my posts are being ignored in the fracas, although I seem to be one of two on this thread who actually owns a log house that is older than most of the people who are venturing opinions."
---Keep in mind that a couple of us might know a thing or two about log homes even though we've never owned or lived in one. (wink)Edited 12/14/2006 12:09 pm ET by twofingers
Edited 12/14/2006 12:10 pm ET by twofingers
I didn't mean to sound disrespectful of anyone else's knowledge, although I see know how that could have been the perception. II apologize to anyone inadvertantly insulted.
Actually, I expect that several of you know more than I do on the subject, although I have been restoring and studying the things for a very long time (own another log structure, too -- old Swedish vertical log barn). Actually, I expect to be asking advice on mine at some point, from those of you who know more.
My point was that I can prove that they a) do not necessarily rot from the inside; and b) can last and be quite nice habitations for a long time -- even centuries.
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"My point was that I can prove that they a) do not necessarily rot from the inside; and b) can last and be quite nice habitations for a long time -- even centuries."
---I agree, 100%!and I was just kidding in my last post - no offense taken :-)
Satisfy my curiosity, please.How does a lawyer sue a log home?
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Easy.
Sure it isn't a sawyer rueing a log home?;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Very nice.
What? A lawyer was hewing a log home?