More old house insulation questions
1918 stucco Arts & Crafts 1 1/2 story house. The first story is stucco over tile block walls and the second story is framed. The eaves are not vented but the gable ends have 12″x18″ vents (an attic fan is planned for one of these). The attic is not small but you cannot stand up straight at the peak. There is no insulation in the gable end or roof cavities but maybe 3″ on the attic floor. The roof has a large surface area and doesn’t get much shade. I do plan to add loose fill cellulose (wet??) to the wall and roof cavities and then add more to the attic floor. Here are my questions:
1. Would there be any benefit to adding spray foam to the attic roof as well?
2. How tough is it to put loose fill into the roof cavities from the attic? I know it would be easier to drill holes into the stud bays and fill from below but some of the plaster contains asbestos binders and I would like to keep disturbances to those surfaces to a minimum.
3. Any other suggestions?
As always thanks for all the input.
Replies
When it comes to insulation the three most important things are location, location, and location.
What's yours?
Assuming I'm following you correctly, you probably want to decide where you want to draw the line between conditioned house and un-conditioned. I myself would decide either to insulate at the rafter level or at the attic floor level. If I'm insulating between the rafters, then I'm creating a 'hot' roof (versus a vented roof). At which point, the attic is within the envelope and the vents would be covered up (and the space becomes storage since it is too low for living space). You can insulate between the rafters with fiberglass batts, or for more R value, nail/screw foamboard across the rafters and then blow the cavities with cellulose. Or have it foamed (more R and more $$).
If I insulate at the attic floor level, then the attic is outside the envelope and I'm going for a cool or vented roof. You could have some storage up there, but would have to accomodate for it prior to blowing in cellulose (or whatever).
A problem a lot of A&C's, bungalows, and cape cods have is a lack or proper ventilation. They might have gable vents or a few cans on the roof, but that is only half of the equation. Attic ventilation is kind of like a drinking straw. For the air to be drawn out the can/gable vent, it has to be drawn in from somewhere. Without soffit/eave vents, it is probably going to draw it from the conditioned house... or not at all (in which case it will just get oven-like up there). Pinch one end of a straw and see how difficult it is to suck air through it... same thing with attic ventilation.
This site has some ventilation info:
http://www.airvent.com/professional/whyVent/evaluate.shtml
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
We are located in central Iowa in the country. I like the foam board and loose fill suggestion. Ventilation IS a big concern and I will check out the web site. My idea was to put a fan on one gable vent and leave the other for draw. I can always increase the size of the passive vent or add another if I need to. Thanks.
We are located in central Iowa in the country.
I went to school in Ames.
I like the foam board and loose fill suggestion. Ventilation IS a big concern and I will check out the web site. My idea was to put a fan on one gable vent and leave the other for draw. I can always increase the size of the passive vent or add another if I need to.
If you're doing the power venting (fan), then yeah, you should be able to draw the air from the other gable. I've also seen solar attic fans/powervents. The attic fan version has a little solar panel and a thermostat so that the fan kicks on at a certain temp. Looked like a neat idea (since getting power to a gable is sometimes an issue), but they usually cost significantly more. I don't know if the solar power-vents have thermostats or not.
If you put the fan in, then just insulate at the floor level and leave the attic as a ventilated space.jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
Thanks again for the input. By "went to school" I am assuming ISU. I am a grad as well. Where are you today? Did you grow up in Iowa?
After school I worked in Marshalltown, Austin, and Chicago before buying this farm place and deciding to come back. We like being back in the area despite the challenges of restoring our farm house "project".
Yup, class of '92. I'm from IL and returned there. I grew up in the country, but have been living in town since leaving ISU. I've been ready to return to the country for the past 5-10 years, but the prices hereabouts have been shooting up for the last 15 years or so. $1-4k/acre ground is running $6-20k/acre. Old farmhouse and an acre or two should be $75-80k, but instead is going for $130-150k. You've got to get about 45-60 mins out in the boondocks to get the price back down, but by then the commute to work will kill ya. And in some directions the 'boondocks' are gone as the Chicago folks (and others) gobble up all the available land (no parcel is too big or too small).
I still have a friend from school that I keep in contact with. He is in SW IA. I kinda like the area and wouldn't mind moving out there, except that I'd probably have to drive to Omaha to work. 45 min drive to work would get old in a hurry and sap your enjoyment of being in the country.
We like being back in the area despite the challenges of restoring our farm house "project"
Houses can be fixed. "Areas" can't. So better to be in an area you like with a house that needs work rather than a good house in an area you don't like. Those old farmhouses can be made snug & comfortable with a bit of work.
Speaking of snug, do you have a setup that would accomodate a wood stove? The newer efficient wood stoves are very nice and help offset what can be high rural utility rates. Not to mention when those winter storms go through and knock out the power.
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
I know what you mean about searching for an acreage outside of Chicago. Interestingly enough we spent three years searching in the late '90's and found our dream acreage NE of Rockford. However, we could never resolve the price versus the house condition and the owner wouldn't budge. In a complete fluke we stumbled on our Iowa acreage during an in-law visit. It had a great house, barn, and corn crib (future guest house) on ten acres for $165K. Within a month we quit our jobs, got pregnant, and moved back. It's been a challenge but we love it.
I love the SW Iowa area, especially the Loess Hills. I have a friend that lives in the Glenwood area on 5 acres with a pond. Very similar story as he moved from the Merrillville (NW Indiana) area, got a great price, and has easy access to the Omaha market. Don't tell anyone but I drive by farmplaces with great potential every day;>)
We are looking into a corn or multi-fuel stove for upstairs and have easy access to an unused chimney. It's not a big priority though as we are pretty comfortable with the cold in the winter time. Getting out of bed in the morning is a little tough sometimes. Future plans are for a wind turbine and solar (barn and machine shed have huge south facing roofs). New neighbors that moved from Denver (wanted an acreage, came to Iowa to ride RAGBRAI, and bought an acreage near a bike trail a few miles from our place) have a goal to be "off the grid" within 5 years. We hope to follow their lead. We loved our time in Chicago and miss our Friday "Lou Malnotti pizza night" but it would be hard to go back.
Lou Malnattis will ship you a frozen pizza. We send one to my Dad out East every year for Christmas.
Didn't know that. Thanks for the information as well as the correct spelling, we moved from Chicago 6 years ago and the only thing I remember to spell is Cubs.
This one?
http://www.loumalnatis.com/index.html
Better be some dang good Za for $20-40/ea.
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
Edited 8/29/2007 11:05 am by JohnT8
In a complete fluke we stumbled on our Iowa acreage during an in-law visit. It had a great house, barn, and corn crib (future guest house) on ten acres for $165K. Within a month we quit our jobs, got pregnant, and moved back. It's been a challenge but we love it.
You just never know how things are going to work out.
Future plans are for a wind turbine and solar (barn and machine shed have huge south facing roofs).
I was surprised to discover that IA is in the top 5 of states producing energy from wind turbines. My electric utility actually purchases power from an IA wind farm.
I don't know what state grants are available in IA. In IL there is a grant to pay 50% up to $25k on a turbine, but we don't have enough wind hereabouts. For PV's, they pay 30% up to $10k (max project amount $50k). And currently there is a 30% Federal Tax credit (up to $2k for residential, unlimited for 'commercial') until the end of 2008. But basically the PV prices are too high right now and we don't have enough wind for a turbine.
You can look up grants/rebates by state here: http://www.dsireusa.org/
We are looking into a corn or multi-fuel stove for upstairs and have easy access to an unused chimney.
The corn stoves are a hot item right now. Either in the 'wood stove' size or full blown furnaces. I think I'm more inclined to burning wood because no one has ever offered me free corn whereas you can get free wood if folks know you're looking for it (especially in the off season). But my friend in SW IA could put a corn stove in. his Dad farms, so he could get his corn cheap.
And he also bought an anemometer (device to measure wind, I'm not sure I'm spelling it right) a year or two back to get year round wind measurements on his property. If he has good enough average wind numbers, he would like to put a turbine in.
came to Iowa to ride RAGBRAI
There's an experience! I played support crew for a couple guys ridding in RAGBRAI...hmm... would have been the EARLY 90's.
have a goal to be "off the grid" within 5 years. We hope to follow their lead.
I'd love to be living in a 'net zero' home. Don't know if I'd be brave enough to go completely off the grid. Kind of the same reasoning that even though I love wood stoves, I still have a furnace.
I doubt I could hit my net zero target without building though. Trying to get an old house to the 'super insulated' stage would just be too much work. And trying to pay for the alternative energy needed for an old, drafty house would take a lottery win. Much easier to build a new hose with SIP's (or whatever) and start out with a super insulated home. Then my alt energy requirements would be much lower.
Couple weeks ago I watched an interesting documentary on energy production and usage. Program was called, "Kilowatt Ours". They briefly touched on some folks living off the grid.
jt8
"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb deciding what to have for dinner, liberty is a well armed lamb protesting the vote." -- Benjamin Franklin
Edited 8/29/2007 11:58 am by JohnT8
Unfortunately grants for private generation in a "wind farm" state aren't as good as those in Illinois. I will check out the website maybe there are some avenues I haven't explored. Our neighbors with the off-the-grid vision are converting a corn crib into a house so they are essentially building from scratch and can make the building tight. We, on the other hand, are just trying to cut our utilities a bunch. I know what you mean about PV pricing, ouch! Just read in some paper recently that venture capitalists are moving away from traditional investments towards things like PV. Maybe things will change.
Isn't RAGBRAI a hoot? With Lance riding the last two years it has become a bit of a circus but he is doing it for a great cause.
I will also check out the Kilowatt Ours program if I can find it. Thanks for all the great information.