Could you guys please advise on the feasibility of moving a heavy lath-plaster 2×6 interior partition wall?
In a nice old house, this 18′ wall needs shifting over by 4′ to make room for a bathroom reno. The wall is non-bearing, and has two door openings in it.
Cutting the plates and end studs free of their nails and neighbours, then sliding the wall over (with pry bars and 20# sledge taps) would cut down on work and demo mess, while maintaining the house’s historical feel.
The door openings would be braced and the bottom plate strengthened with a screwed on 2x beater (for the sledges), so the wall moves as one. I would fasten a couple stops to the ceiling and floor, on my new layout.
I am concerned about the weight involved, and overcoming the friction:
Apparently, a sq.ft. of lath and plaster weighs 10lbs or so, not counting the framing. This wall is 9′-4″ high and 18′ long. So 168 sq.ft., therefore 1680lbs for the lath and plaster.
Fir weighs 33lb per cu.ft. I estimate the framing (16″oc) to weigh 400lbs.
For a total weight of 2080lbs – a ton.
Is this feasible? Or should I drop this idea, demo, build new wall, drywall and skim coat thickly to look old?
How would you overcome the weight and friction?
Edited 11/24/2006 2:12 am ET by Pierre1
Replies
any electric or water in the wall??
if you flex the wall the plaster will crack or break off... then it's a rebuild any ways...
if it tips over and gets out of control...who gets hurt or what gets creamed...
build new... probaly cheaper too..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Glad you are on tonight IMERC.
Electrics: 2 switches, 3 lites, electrician will redo...easy access from basement.
Tipping would be disastrous: At first, I was going to set some ceiling blocks 'along the way', then remove and reset behind as I go. Now I'm thinking this sucker can't tip over because as it tips, it will 'grow' taller on the diagonal. Lots of diagonal growth as 2x6 plates.
To clarify: Same growth thing happens when tipping sister joists between beams and sub-floor in an existing house...you get rid of the diagonal growth by bevelling opposing corners.
Build new: Yes, lots of advantages, but I'd like to pull a magic trick for this customer. I also like a technical and historical challenge. Keeping the old means the house maintains its 'integrity', something the customer responds to. This customer-in-the-making is really well connected to folk with serious billfolds.
lites in the wall or ceiling???
do you know the construction and plaster methods... it it's wood lath and plaster it won't like being moved and react accordingly...
10#SF is too light I believe 6 to11 pounds heavier than that depending on the method...
now about all that weight..
say the wall is set between two joists or rafters and tips.. plenty of flex in the ceiling and or floor to let it go over..
My biggest concern would be breaking the wall from flexing it... or damageing the floors and ceiling and walls so that they now have to be repaired
at a min it'd be cracks with scored and scratched floors.. at worse the plaster peels and a gouged floor....
if you flex or exercise the lath fasteners that wall will always try to be falling apart, cracking and have bulges that will never go away no matter what you do..
so would repairs be okay or would a duplicated wall be more practicle..
use rock lath and plaster them up a new wall that looks like it has been there since day one.. use the search function and there are plenty of posts on plastering..
I tried the same an a cica early 1900's house.. moved the wall (a lot smaller) and then went back a couple of months later and tore it out.. built a new one..
infact it was the house that had the base on top of the shoe mould..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 11/24/2006 3:43 am by IMERC
I'm really starting to have second thoughts about this wall shuffle idea. The ceiling could flex, and there she blows. Moving the old wall is elegant in theory, but the results are now seriously in question.
Thanks for pointing out that even if the move itself goes without mishap, the wall will likely be damaged beyond easy repair.
A new wall could be finish taped to the intersecting old walls using the D-mix method. That too is something new for me...I like the promised speed, simplicity, and low dusting. I have 7 pages of D-mix notes pasted from BT threads onto a Word document that I just printed out. And a new 20" knife looking for work. Now to find a small DD cup.... Small and DD in the same sentence, lol.
It will be interesting to see what wall moving experiences others have had.
Sorry, I didn't read the shoe mould thread. You started it?
fink started it..
you got the D mix notes..
would you email them to me as an attachment???
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
BTW.. a DD would be like riding a water bed wouldn't it??
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm with the others in that overall it doesn't sound like the best thng to do.But I can MAYBE see it working. You'd have to brace the top and bottom of the wall so it didn't bend and crack the plaster. You might have to push the ceiling and floor apart a bit to get some clearance. That would risk damaging something somewhere else.You'd have to move it slowly - Maybe with some come-a-alongs. Using a sledge would likely cause the plaster to turn to dust.Doors would likely have to be re-hung after it was moved, as the floor where you move it from may not be the same as where you move it to. )A hump here and a dip there becomes a dip here and a hump there)Seems like you'd be taking one heck of a risk trying it. But if you and the HO are up for it...
Dare to be stupid. [Weird Al Yankovic]
Now is lalth and plaster done; ie, in what order?If it was done like typical DW the ceiling would have gone up first. Then the walls. That would like it in at the top.Also if HW floors where put down after the walls where built that would lock in the botton.
Not only that, but you've got no assurance that the floor-to-ceiling height is the same for the entire distance. I've seen homes where there could be a 1/2" difference in that 4 feet.
People never lie so much as before an election, during a war, or after a hunt. --Otto von Bismarck
Since he'd be dragging a ton of wall across the floor the deflection in the floor joists should be able to make up for any dips in the ceiling - LOL. Bill's got it right though - the wall is bound to be locked in at both the top and bottom so it's not going anywhere.
Thank you all for your valuable advice.
There are many many practical and cost and quality reasons why moving this lath-plaster wall is not the way to go. You guys have saved my azz.
I will go the demo and new wall route. If the customer can't understand that this is the way to go, I will take a pass on the project. Better the bird in hand than the ones in the bush.
Thanks.
IMERC - email with D-mix BT cutandpaste on its way to you. P.
Do as Yoda uhm.. er, Imerc says! Seriously, I updated my brothers 1894 lath and plaster. Well bulit, but not as easy as one thinks. Listen to Yoda.
I know I was half asleep when I told you all that last night but it's good to read confirmation....Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
when we did lath and plaster the cieling and walls were done as monolithicly together as possible as one unit....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Edited 11/24/2006 11:26 pm by IMERC
lathe would lock in the top too
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"This customer-in-the-making is really well connected to folk with serious billfolds."All the more reason to act like you know what you are doing.Demo the wall and build a new one. Moving it will demo it anyways.
Controling the dust is the professional image part.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the cust mgt. advice.
I will purchase some of those spring-loaded jiffy poles to hold up my dust containment visqueen.
if you you got a plan "B"... move the wall but have provisions to got to square one...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I agree that this sounds good in theory, but would be much better to simply demo the wall.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Honestly all the plaster i've ever worked with would have succumbed to the 20# sledge "taps". cant you just strip the wall, move it, the drywall it? It might be easier. I honestly dont think many visitors would shun they HO's even if they did notice the one wall was "only drywall".
Actually, another problem will be that the house was framed first. By this I mean that assuming the walls are exactly plumb allowing for sliding the framing will be taller than the existing ceiling (remember the plaster was put in after the framing.
Edited 11/24/2006 8:50 pm ET by MSA1
Edited 11/24/2006 8:52 pm ET by MSA1
Absolutely demo and rebuild. If you like the plaster look then have the new wall plastered. I've tried too many times to save the plaster when new walls of sheetrock are going up, or save certain sections of plaster, but it always comes out that I should have demo the work and do new.
This is unless I'm on a conservation job.
Demo the wall, but don't put a thicker coat of plaster to make it look old!! Veneer plaster is not intended to be more than just that, a veneer skim coat, (1/4" max) you could skim the wall but just not finish it to perfectly smooth, but I think you're better off to finish it smooth and it will look just fine once primed and painted.
Geoff