Here’s one….last year in the early summer working for a framing crew in Mustang, Oklahoma. 1st day on the job site I rolled up and the ground is littered with old 2 x material, decking, scab pieces etc., not one nail driven over or pulled out. Guys on the site were literally stepping on nails every day and nobody was saying anything about it, worse yet, they didn’t take a few minutes and do anything about it. Foreman was an easy going guy and wouldn’t have complained if they did take the time, but it was just like it was all part of the job to dodge nails. The electricians were already on site so you can see how long this had been going on, it wasn’t like the clean up didn’t get done starting from yesterday.
Foreman also wasn’t having anything to do with making the guys clean up the site. He just stepped over/around everything for the most part and got a couple punctures himself, never said a word about cleaning the mess up.
I know where I come from if you drop a board and it’s got a nail in it, you’d better drive it over/out or you can plan on finding a pink slip sooner than you’d like.
Tell me that in your neck of the woods you are a bit more safety oriented than this. What do you do as the GC and you have a sloppy crew on your site??
I’m hoping this is just a localized regional thing, but sound off and tell us what part of the country you’re from and if this sort of worksite conditions apply to the site you’re working on…..
If you aren’t one of the one’s I’m talking about,you shouldn’t have any complaints….
Replies
Pull the nails, or go home.
I wish I had taken pictures......had I known about this place (Taunton) back then it would have made for interesting conversation....If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
I showed up on the most hillbilly commercial jobsite in the Detroit metro area I've ever seen. Crap laying all over, watched a pipe wrench fall twenty feet and bounce on the concrete. Not a hard hat or saftey glasses in sight. The twenty-something "superintendent" said he had Labor Ready coming tomorrow. No porta-potties on site and the bathrooms had just been taken out of service. We can pee in the weeds for a few days, but the women on this job couldn't. No temporary lighting in the torn-out ceilings so when it got cloudy, I was out of work in addition to being endangered.
This shows more than a lack of respect for tradespeople, this shows contempt, as do comments like "pull the nails or go home".
If your kids are getting into construction, they better take Spanish in school, so they can understand their boss and the music playing on the radio.
How is "pull the nails or go home" being contempt?
Ever step on a 16d nail poking outta board, I have.
I showed up on the most hillbilly commercial jobsite in the Detroit metro area I've ever seen. Crap laying all over, watched a pipe wrench fall twenty feet and bounce on the concrete. Not a hard hat or saftey glasses in sight. The twenty-something "superintendent" said he had Labor Ready coming tomorrow. No porta-potties on site and the bathrooms had just been taken out of service. We can pee in the weeds for a few days, but the women on this job couldn't. No temporary lighting in the torn-out ceilings so when it got cloudy, I was out of work in addition to being endangered.
This shows more than a lack of respect for tradespeople, this shows contempt, as do comments like "pull the nails or go home".
What?
This shows more than a lack of respect for tradespeople, this shows contempt,
Followed by...
If your kids are getting into construction, they better take Spanish in school, so they can understand their boss and the music playing on the radio
Disrespect and contempt? You illustrated both nicely yourself with that line. I'm thinking you oughta clean up your own backyard for starters.
All:
I meant no disrespect or contempt for anyone and regret if my comments were percieved that way. I grew up with and have many Chicano friends and I like Latin music.
While I understand the idea of picking up after yourself, I do not put money in my bids for bringing my own toilets, picking up after other trades and hanging my own lights by which to work. Some owners and GC's talk the talk about saftey and respect, but their actions show none.
Edited 7/25/2005 8:43 pm ET by Kowboy
Maybe this way would sound less contemptfull for ya...I had a guy working with us for half a year. His attitude was going south. I was working with him one day pulling braces off and noticed he was throwing them down on snow without pulling nails.I said, "Hey Andy, here's how we need to do this, so nobody gets hurt, because those nails are going to get covered with snow, and then get stepped on." I then drove the nails in mine back and yanked them outin about ten seconds. He watched, tore loose another brace, loooked right at me, and threw it on the ground without pulling nails.That night, while other guys were picking things up and roilling the cords, I called Andy over. Told him it would be a waste of his time to come back to the job, cause I didn't need careless caarpenters trying to hurt people. Gave him his time.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
To take it to the next level how about picking up those nails? I was asked to do a few little odd items on a commercial job that belongs to one of my old school teachers. My neighbor is the general on this job. I parked on the street behind it and looked down and saw about 1 nail per sqft. Came back with one of the mag sweepers and picked up quite a pile.
It seems that there is just a lack of concern. The safety issue is just plain serious. I have been lucky and not stepped on one but I am tired of getting expensive tires repaired or replaced.
When I was in Kansas a roofer was reshaking across the street and I just happened to notice a nice nail in the sidewall of an almost new high dollar tire on the old BMW. Asked the contractor about it and he said "I am sure it is not mine". Walked across the street to the job and pointed out about a dozen or so in the street just like it. He sprung for new tire. Bless his heart.
A true gentleman and professional - steady, calm, and reasonable, even to those who don't deserve it.
Jim, I wonder if you'd think that way if you stepped on one of that a-holes boards?
Guys like that need to go back to kindygarten. Personally, I don't allow them on my site. If I don't the authority to send him packing, I walk...carefully.
blue
There might be a misunderstanding here. I think the way Piffin handled that jerk shows volumes of what a man he is, no matter how big of an a** he was dealing with. Or, are you refering to another post I've made in this thread?
I did step on a nail when I was about 10 (23-4 years ago). My parents were building our new house (having it built by a builder) and we would clean up the jobsite every night. The nail I stepped on was one of those with the large platic washer on it. My mom had just taken a picture of me standing in a 1st floor window (sill height about 24" above the deck). I stepped back from the window right onto that nail.
Lessons "earned" sure do stick around longer than Lessons "learned". . .
Anyhow, we weren't blaming anyone for it, but I was more careful from that day forward with my own nails and those of others.
Edit - I re-read your replies/comments to others and now I see where you are coming from. I will stand by my comment. Firing him that moment would have been fine, too - but doing it alone shows a certain professionalism I respect.
Edited 7/24/2005 1:29 pm ET by Jim
He watched, tore loose another brace, loooked right at me, and threw it on the ground without pulling nails.
That night, while other guys were picking things up and roilling the cords, I called Andy over.
That NIGHT?!!!
You have a very slow trigger.
blue
that's what I thought...
Imerc, when I was younger, I used to tolerate a lot more crap. I wasn't a softy, but I thought I "needed" help. At some point in my carreer, I began to understand that I'm happiest when I'm in an enviorment where no one is aggravating me and I also discovered long ago that I don't really need anyone to help me frame a house.
A guy like that aggravates me, and I've learned that once that thought enters my mind, it never gets better. So, in light of my 100% track history (guys that aggravate me, eventually get fired), I pull the trigger as soon as I figure out that we won't be able to work together comfortably. It's actually better for both of us, as I can be very difficult to work with if I don't like you, or you don't like me. Either way, hell is better.
If the guy just had a bad habit, but was truly motivated and trying to change, I'd be able to work with him and eventually fix him, but if a guy looks me in the eyes while dropping something that I just talked about him...well....
blue
I like yur attitude...
world of patience.. it works..
zero tolerence... helps with the sanity....
now about the guards on yur saws... ROAR!!!
Imerc, I still have that guard on my new saw. It's been a long time since I saw one in use and I wanted to make sure things haven't changed.
They haven't. I was showing the new guy how to cut the rafters for a saddle. The saddle was a 4/12 and it layed onto a 10/12. I watched him try to get the saw started for the level cut and he couldn't get that saw to make the cut; the guard would't retract on that acute angle! Later, he had to shave a 1/2" off of something. Again, the guard didn't function as intended.
Guard are fine if you are square cutting stock in a level position. They don't work for me.
Also, I have already noticed that we often have to walk to get my saw for certain cuts that can't be done with that dratted extended table on the blade side. Since I've reaquainted myself with a "normal" saw, I'm more convinced than ever that I'd never use one!
blue
I made an extended thumb lever for mine.. problem solved..
I would still tell the difiante one he was history...
something like ... ummmmm don't worry about those nails anymore... offered to pay ya the 1st time.. yur on volunteeer status now...
I thought the same thing. Maybe it’s really hard to find any help at all in Piffin’s neighborhood. It sounds as if he was giving the guy a second chance and the guy’s attitude just didn’t make it. Good riddance. From what I have read it is his loss not to have worked with Piffin.
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I agree that insolence and insubordination need to be dealt with immediately if for no other reason than to keep the respect that the other employees have working for you. But the circumstances may vary so the rules do too. I would hate to have waited till someone got hurt to let him or her go when it seems as they are pushing the issue to begin with though.
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Having a hair trigger can be as dangerous as a misfire. Keep your muzzle pointed down range at all times. Opps, This isn’t the M14 forum. Carry on men.
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blue,
the dude giving piffen the stink eye---was asking to be fired. I am guessing he was in the mood for a " scene"
Piffen was too shrewd for that---- it's much better to pick the time and place of your battles.
I fired a guy a couple of years ago----and it was one of the happiest days of my life-------- generally I don't like the process----but THIS guy--------
Had been pushing me, pushing me , pushing me for some time-----just begging for it
when I fired him I caught him TOTALLY by suprise---he NEVER EXPECTED it at that time and place.
I fired him---and his nephew---and unfortuneately an innocent co-worker---all at the same time----in a downpour---in the customers driveway---in front of the customer !
the WHOLE roofing crew---BAM.
what a rush---I was buzzed from that encounter for about 3 days.
the 2 nasty ones went toe to toe with me at the top of their lungs---called me EVERY name in the book
I just looked 'em in the eye, with my arms crossed behind my back---and let 'em rant.
After they were gone---the customer said " WOW---you really are a Hazlett aren't you?" I replied--- "I am sorry you had to hear them use that language-----but you understand I can't have people who behave like that on my jobs---or near your home"
the screamers were hoping to embarrass me---and ruin my reputation in that neighborhood.
In reality--- that customer has given me tons of referalls, I have done 3 different roofs within about 150 feet of that location---and the whole encounter has been to my benefit.
Pick your spots !!!!!
BTW----the innocent co-worker came back and worked for me the next year---no hard feelings at all
Stephen
Great story Stephen. I think someone should start a thread on firings. I'll bet we'd get lots of good stories!
Yeah...maybe I will.
blue
"the dude giving piffen the stink eye---was asking to be fired."There was probably something to that. I had him paired with a helper who was making $12/hour. The next week, he quit, telling me that Andy could pay him fifteen.he missed the part about how he was suddenly not being covered by workers comp, FICA, and all those good things, or that he now had to travel thirty miles to work. I think Andy haad been planning a move and was mining my helper. Never did miss him when I let him go. Helper was back in a couple of months.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Right on, blue!"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." Robert Frost
You know how slow my fuse is. I don't fire someone when we are fifteen feet in the air on a staging
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
That's what they tell me. I rarely go off half cocked, but when I go off, I hit what I'm aiming at.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
What your describing is, IMHO, proof positive that the tradesmen, labor, are underpaid. When your paying good money you want to get the most out of those your paying. A clean site, basic safety precautions and provisions for basic human functions are not amenities. They are workforce multipliers. They make the workers, and their time, more effective and more likely to be OTJ rather than trotting around looking for a place to pee or, far worse, summoning up your workman's compensation numbers for the clerk in the local ER.Of course if your running dirt cheap, probably illegal, labor and have no strings attached, aliens are far less likely to resort to legal action and if injured OTJ they are tossed out like an empty beer can, inefficient and/or disabled workers are far less of a concern.Edited for clarity.
Edited 7/24/2005 7:29 pm ET by 4LORN1
AMEN to everythig you just said.
You make a couple good points in your response, this could apply to a couple other threads here as well...........If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
Unfortunately, the days of expecting employees, subs or anyone else to "do what's right" are long gone. The only way to get anything to happen is to put it in writing at the time of the contract, enforce it in writing, and hit them in the pocketbook when things aren't done per the agreement.
With subs, this means outlining what is expected- daily cleanup, removal of exposed nails, etc. Also deliniate how they will be notified of any problems, and how much it will cost them if the problems aren't resolved.
With employees, it means a handbook deliniating what is expected of them, how they will be notified of a problem, and where and when to pick up their last check if they aren't corrected.
It works the other way too- subs should demand in their proposals that certain jobsite conditions are provided by the GC- portajohns, temporary light, free and clear access to the work areas (cleanup by other trades), etc. They should also spell out how they intend to notify the GC of any issues, how and when they will pull off of the jobsite if conditions aren't rectified, and what it will cost them to have you re-mobilize once you do pull off.
I deal with this stuff every day on big commercial projects. Our safety manual is several hundred pages, and every job has a 10-25 page document of "Special Provisions for All Subcontractors" which outlines exactly what we as the GC will be providing, and what is expected of the subs. Both of these documents are listed in the contract (and incorporated by reference thereto), along with procedures for violation notices, fines, etc. It makes it crystal clear when an issue arises.
It sucks that it has to be this way, but the reason these things happen is that we tolerate the abuses. If we stop doing that, the abuses tend to get corrected, or the job stops. And stopped jobs cost money.....
Bob
I have experienced the nail in the board thing just recently. As a site manager on a large house, I also worked alongside the framers building the house. This is a sub crew with 3 bosses and 5 more employees. Over and over I had to remind about backing nails out of boards. Especially setting trusses, the temp blocks would get pulled and tossed. Even the bosses were guilty.
I try to run a pretty clean site, so stepping on or around scraps and garbage drives me nuts. It's amazing how some of the younger guys I've seen lately with no respect fot the site itself.
When I was started (really not that long ago) I was trained to pick things up. If you're on the way the john or the truck or trailer, grab something to throw away. You're going past the dumpster anyway, sure saves a trip later.
The biggest difficulty I've experienced is trying get people to understand how unsafe some things are. I think for some people it's gonna have to take a serious accident before they see what's wrong.
Quality, Craftsmanship, Detail
I've worked in 5 different States and I ALWAYS keep a clean site.
"A liberal is a man too broadminded to take his own side in a quarrel." Robert Frost
As a person who hires subs, as opposed to being a sub, you will occasionally hear me complain about workmanship, non-professionalism, etc. On the other hand, I can't think of a crew who did not at least bend their nails over before the scrap is thrown in the direction of the trash bin. Better still, I've noticed that when they run out of material, not only do they pull the nails, but they use up those 7' 'scraps'... ;-) All my crews make an effort to clean up after themselves - or else they are not one of "my crews". I also post "Please clean up after your self" signs to remind the trades that come in after the house is framed.
As far as my part of the deal, I always be sure there is temp power, temp water, a trash bin, toilets readily available and my trash people pick up the site and sweep the house when I ask them to. I'll also go get crews materials if I am responsible for supplying it and they run low (as opposed to a 2 day wait for an order).
Matt
I've worked in 4 states and this area is the only place I've seen slop like this...I may take a drive today and see if I can't find one of the sites that made me start this thread...my guess is that you'll be amazed that crap like this is still out there...the pics will tell all......If you aren't one of the one's I'm talking about,you shouldn't have any complaints....
We're extremely fastidious. Any nails in wood that we're saving get pulled, not bent over. Demo with nails in it goes straight in the dumpster. Safety and comfort are #1. Can't have it that way... I'll find a different job to work on.
Attitude is something learned on the job. Work is habit forming and it takes time and training to develop decent skills. Initially you are only as good as your Mentors. Good habits lead to consistency, professional results and a safe work environment for everyone.
I've witnessed a few disasters on construction sites and I would say a goodly percentage of them are caused by Instant Tradespeople and poor habits. People who simply will not take those extra couple of minutes to make it right, make it safe.
I always assume there will be kids coming on to the jobsite when we leave for the day. New or re-usable lumber is stacked, holes have barriers and junk is piled, or preferably in a dumpster.
"I always assume there will be kids coming on to the jobsite when we leave for the day. New or re-usable lumber is stacked, holes have barriers and junk is piled, or preferably in a dumpster."An excellent assumption. When a house was built in the lot next door to where I grew up, us kids were all over that place as soon as the workmen were gone.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
I view leaving nails where they can cause harm as “Insubordination”. You should not have to tell someone this more than once! The dumbest people on Earth are the one who don’t know how stupid they are. And there is no such thing as “Justifiable Stupidity”. (Like trying to justify leaving nails sticking out) Pulling nails is smart. “Not is Not!”
"And that' all I have to say about that."
...kids on the jobsite after everyone leaves...
I was learning the trade on a new 200 unit motel, with a second floor concrete slab. Back then, mid 70's, it was all wood forming, piles of shoring, beams, bracing and form ply were stacked by forklift after the slab was stripped.
One night some kids were playing on top of the piles and a kid between got trapped. Luckly, it was a freaking miracle he wasn't crushed, a 2X was sticking out just far enough out of the pile it saved him. He was about 8 years old.
It scared the living bejesus out of all of us and an etirely new attitude swept the jobsite. Not hard to imagine, the Super and most of the guys working there had kids of their own.
> .... us kids were all over that place ....
Long long ago, we had framed a little 6' wide wall and left it on the slab at the end of the day. The next morning, the whole damn wall was gone. A few days later, my dad approched the job site from a different direction, looked up the hill, and saw that our wandering wall had become the floor joist system of a treehouse. ;-)
-- J.S.
Maybe you just need a woman on the site.My rite hand man for the last 8 years has been a 52 yr. old woman (item for a whole new thread).We build custom houses and renovations and usually do most the work without many subs. So if theres a mess we made it and altho were not anal about it people we work for compliment us all the time. We see it as an effeciency ; health and saftey and economic issue.When ur self employed you dont have $ for stupid injuries and wasted time looking for tools and materials. We figure the house is "ours" till we turn it over and we enjoy working in a clean safe place.
We looked at a job of finishing the inside of a 4000' log house yesterday and just rolled our eyes at what was there.Including a 16'- 45degree chicken walk gang plank with about 5 cleats in it. We told the guy we do it but might take a week clean up the job and he said fine.Hers a commander on an aircraft carrier and he appreciated clean too.
Women often have a beneficial influence on job sites. Less cussing, roughhousing, bragging and posturing. Better general behavior. Things being a bit cleaner. All good things.
Some of the first stuff I ever built were tree houses... Of course, 10 YO kids don't $ for lumber...
Me and a few buds built an awesome one, way high and had studded walls, and even a window or 2 (prefabed at home). Didn't last long though... One of the "mean kids" burned it down. I probably learned more from the end result... Just to keep the thread on track... I don't remember if there were any boards laying around with "nails on the job site". ;-) Matt
LOL - In our neighbourhood, lumber with nails in it and offcuts quickly left the jobsites to end up in forts and treehouses. We built several as we had mean kids to deal with too.
When we were kids our favourite game was 'driving the steamshovel', as there was usually one parked somewhere in the sub they were building. One of us'd clamber up through a window and open the door and then the whole gang would pile inside, yanking every lever and knob in sight.
Once that got boring, one or two of the braver souls would climb as far as he dared up the boom, getting grease from the cables all over himself for a guaranteed lickin' when he got home.
We also liked bulldozers, naturally. They weren't as interesting as steamshovels, but they were easier to get into as they had no doors. But the day the 'dozer driver screwed up big time and left the key in the ignition when he knocked off for the day will not soon be forgotten. You never in your life saw 8 kids run so fast as when that engine actually started....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I remember those cable driven 'steam shovels'. Eastern excavation Co. had a real one, with a wooden camboose, smokestack, and all. On display only for marketing purposes.
These ones were in use on a daily basis. Early to mid 'fifties. Amazing beasts, forward-digging, unarticulated buckets and all that. Black smoke and white steam and the operator blowing whistle signals to the dumptruck drivers....
I remember one time when I was about 5 asking my dad how that big steamshovel got waaaaay down there into that huge hole they were digging for a new apartment building. When we got home, he took me over to my sandbox and showed me how....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Cool dads don't just happen, they are trained. :-)
I'm burning the midnite oil - to use another steamshovel era term - putting a window RR and miscellania bid together.
Not that I'm braggin', mind you, but my steamshovel ran on coal, not oil....
That was the other source of serious dirt no kid I knew could resist. Me neither. At Grandma's house, I loved to play in the coal bin and would take a big chunk of coal outside and draw stuff like the Batman symbol on the sidewalk with it. I always got hollered at by my mother when she came to pick us up. 'You've been playing in the coal bin again!' she'd yell as soon as she laid eyes on me. Whop!
Always wondered how she knew....
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
Of course they did, my old friend.
Stupid lazy yard (Home Building Ctr.) made two mistakes on their price quote. In one case, the window will be too small to allow for egress, in the other, too big for the RO. I have specified.
These folk are the only game in town...I'm a small operation in a high volume resort town...you get the picture. Sometimes I wish we had a big box here to kick their butt, and shrink their margins, and learn them some courtesy and attention to details.
Ya want me to build the windows for ya? When do you need 'em by?
Dinosaur
A day may come when the courage of men fails,when we forsake our friends and break all bonds of fellowship...
But it is not this day.
I grew up on the Prairies,(no trees to speak of in our neighborhood at the edge of town), so we dug forts like gophers. Tunnels collapsed after a rain so, digging large pits was the answer. Plenty of new construction to raid we covered the pits with planks and scraps of ply and shoveled the dirt back on top. In a couple of days the thing was covered with weeds and in about a week the top was as pale brown as the rest of the Prairie. In 2 weeks, if you didn't know where it was you could walk right by it.
Neat O.
"Who Has Seen the Wind", by W.O. Mitchell.
Canadian author, raised on the Alberta prairie N. of Montana. Story there about pit forts, and swimming holes on prairie rivers, trains.
I've called subs back to sites when they've left messes. Safety is paramount. There too many people on site for messes (home owners, others subs, inspectors, etc). I've had people come in that you'd think owned the place, their stuff everywhere. Even if they're the only sub on at the time its not acceptable. Same with my own guys, I dont want to be tripping over things all day.
I once had a phone installer on site. He was a retired phone worker that did installs part-time(home-owner called him). It was a basement job and he came in with a bucket to stand on "i've been doing it for years". I told him "no way use a ladder or leave". Turns out he had a ladder in his car and didnt feel like getting it. Some peoples kids........