Well, as luck would have it, I found out one of the three way switch setups in my house is wired in series with 14/3. Of course, this would only be found out after wires that were acessible for years are now covered in drywall. There must be some sort of theory about this, electrical stuff that is miswired will only be discovered after taping and texturing have begun.
This will have to be fixed and I’m wondering if Bill Hartman, 4LORN, or another electrical person might give me some opinions.
There are three fixtures on this circuit, wired in series with what appears to be 14/3. Pulling cable to the third fixture from the second would require removing large amounts of drywall.
Option 1: Connect fixtures one and two with a two wire cable and add fixture 3 to another circuit. This would require using a flex drill bit to run a cable up the slope of the staircase. It also requires a cutting for a j-box near fixture three to connect the switch to fixtures one and two. How hard is it to drill with a flex bit?
Option 2: Change all fixtures to be switched at one location only and use an X-10 controller for the second switch. (There are other wires in a box at X-10 Controller location). This option seems the simplest, but I don’t like it as much as a regular 3 wire switch.
Option 3: At the switch box location, where power enters, two other correctly wired 3-way setups exist (all on one circuit, only 500 watts total). Possibly tie in here? (I can provide a detailed wiring diagram if this is possible, I certainly can’t figure it out).
Option 4: I’m hoping an electrical genius here at Breaktime might have a (pun intended) light bulb turn on…
Anyway, if anyone has any thoughts I would appreciate it, I’m not sure of the best way to proceed.
Thanks!
Edited 1/5/2006 3:41 pm ET by Corrib
Replies
Simple diagram or brief discription would help.
Example: 14-2 line in to switch box - 14-3 out to first fixture box - 14-3 out from first fixture box to second fixture box - 14-2........etc.
Where is the second switch box / cabling / etc.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I probably should have included that in my first post. So, here's how it looks in jpg format. MarkH, I'm sure the original one was correct, I added two more and just followed the instructions from the B&D book and the pre-existing wiring (which was probably my first mistake). I'm certainly not too proud to call a pro if this gets complicated, but they're hard to get in my area for a job like this.Please let me know if I can provide any other info.Thanks again for your help!
Edited 1/5/2006 4:42 pm ET by Corrib
Despite all the drawings and explanations (or possibly because of all the drawings and explanations!) I'm still not totally sure what you're trying to do here.
However another thought, which I think will work in with your setup, is to use an electronic dimmer. These systems, such as Lutron Mastro and Lightolier Sunrise do not work like a convential three way, because they can be dimmed from all the locations.
There is a master dimmer, then you can add any number of slaves, the slaves basically use the third wire (red) to communicate a signal to the master, and usually only need to be connected together in series. Check out the websites, they may have wiring diagrams. The other benefit is that you can dim from all locations, so long as it's not flourescents your switching !!
10-X Baby-----its been suggested
Call an electrician. If it's been there for years, its probably right. I have never seen any fixtures wired in series unless someone who did not know what they were doing wired them.
I don't understand the problem. Nothing wrong with 14/3. The sequence of what the cable runs hit matters but less than many think. Can you further describe the situation? A diagram would be helpful but a simple list or diagram of what each box handles, fixture or switch, listed from where the power comes in would make it clearer.
Something along the lines of:
Feed from panel -- S3 -- S3 -- light -- light -- light
All cables 14/3
Maybe I'm dense but I don't think I understand what exactly you're worried about. 14 ga is fine for the application you seem to be describing. Are you worried because of the wire ga, or because you think they're in series? (very very very unlikely... do all three lights go out if one bulb blows? If not, they are not in series). Maybe if you expand on exactly what your concern is...
PaulB
I'm learning all kinds of stuff here. Here's the sequence:Feed from panel (14/2)---switch box (14/2 enters and 14/3 exits box) and three way switch ---three way switch to first fixture via 14/3 wire---first fixture to second fixture via 14/3--second fixture to third fixture via 14/3---third fixture to second three way switch location via 14/3. (switch,fixture,fixture,fixture,switch)To be honest, I haven't hooked all this up yet. From some of the other stuff I saw, I thought this configuration might wrong, but maybe it's not. (I'm only slightly lucky....) :) Thanks for the help guys!
There are several ways you can hook up a three way circuit, which is basically 2 SPDT (single pole double throw) swtiches back to back. Here's a good reference on the alternatives:
http://www.electrical-online.com/howtoarticles/3&4WaySwitches.htm
HTH
PaulB
OK, as I understand the drawing, you do have a problem. The home run goes to the first 3-way switch, and from there it's 14-3 thru some fixtures to the other 3-way switch. That run needs to be a neutral, a switch leg, and two 3-way runners. So, you need four conductors on a run where you only have three.
If this were conduit, you could pull in the right setup. Given that it's Romex, your options are to rip out some DW, or go with something like X-10. The X-10 would use the 14-3 as hot, neutral, and switch leg. I'd go with X-10 unless the re-work were extremely easy.
-- J.S.
Thanks again for your help guys! I really appreciate it!
Barring some sort of miracle (I like the way my heart beats and my lack of electrical burn scars, so I don't think I'll be using the ground as a netural), it looks like it will be the X-10 route for me.
I'm not exactly pleased about this, but controlling a number of other lights might make for a true theater experience in my basement.
Anyway, what do you pros think of X-10 in general? Is it a solution or just a band-aid for a stupid mistake?
Thanks again!
How difficult would it be to get an new run of 14/3 from switch box # 1 to switch box #2?
If not terrible we can solve your problem without X-10 device. You would be able to utilize your existing 14/3 in lieu of 14/2 to the fixtures.
Just a thought.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I think it would be pretty difficult, but I'll take a close look. Thanks for the idea.
Edited 1/5/2006 8:43 pm ET by Corrib
You are getting it right!
Flex bits are not that terrible to use. Option 2 is to cut one smallish hole in the drywall in the middle of the run and bore in 2 directions. With a little luck and some forethought the boxes may not need to come out.
Are boxes plastic or metal? How anchored?
Luck.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
Edit: That was interesting - I was responding to your post .15 while you were changing it!
Edited 1/5/2006 8:54 pm ET by JTC1
Thanks to Breaktime, I finally got this mess figured out. The wall below the fixtures has drywall, but it won't be finished and it's in a non visible area. So, by removing the drywall, I can run the 14/2 between the fixtures. Then, I'll reattach it and be all set. Of course, this seems like a very simple solution now, but it certainly required some thought.Anyway, I appreciate everyone's advice and words of encouragement. I'm sure it helped bring me to the solution. And, the solution doesn't involve X-10 or drywall taping, which is all good in my book.Thank you again!P.S. JTC1: I misread your last post I responded too, that why the edit. But, it did get me thinking about the solution, so thanks!
Edited 1/6/2006 9:15 am ET by Corrib
X-10 is a good solution, nothing to be afraid of. It's been around for a long time, and is very standard stuff. Price it out vs. what it would take to run more wires. Of course, the temptation once you use X-10 here will be to think of other places in the house to do more of it. ;-)
-- J.S.
Corrib,
If everything works the ways it's supposed to, that is, lights turn on and off as needed, then you don't have a problem.
14ga wire is what is called for with a 15 amp breaker, and three current carrying conductors is needed when multiple switches control one set of loads.
The terms "Series" and "Parallel" don't have any meaning when talking about junction boxes. "Series" means that one load is the current carrying conductor for another load.
View Image
With lamps, AKA "lights", that would mean that if one lamp burned out, it would be like cutting the wire to the other lamp, and it would go out also. Like christmas tree decorative lights.
SamT
Ain't gotta draw me no picture-------------But it helps.
Still didn't quite get it from your jpeg, but if the configuration is as posted
breaker--14/2--3-way--14/3---lite--14/3--lite--14/3--lite--14/3--3-way
somethings not right. You would need 14/4 or 14/2 X 2 between lite #1 and Lite #3. Since none of the wires are exposed is it possible you have a different configuration. If I understood you right you said it worked before. I would guess your OK but never caught on why you thought you had a problem.
Changed out switch? Swapped neutral? Tripped breaker?
I have seen your configuration wired before using the ground for the neutral/4th wire between lites. So wrong but Oh well.
"Feed from panel (14/2)---switch box (14/2 enters and 14/3 exits box) and three way switch ---three way switch to first fixture via 14/3 wire---first fixture to second fixture via 14/3--second fixture to third fixture via 14/3---third fixture to second three way switch location via 14/3. (switch,fixture,fixture,fixture,switch)"That won't work.Here is a basic connection for ONE light with the light between the 2 siwtches.http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/switchoutlet/3way/3waypwswthrufx.htmThen fron this first light you can run 14-2 from the first light to the 2nd, and from the 2nd to the 3rd. Connect the black and white of the 14-2 to the black and white at each fixture.
Edited 1/5/2006 7:04 pm by BillHartmann