Hello all,
In the process of straightening things out a bit here in the house before starting any remodeling. I’d like to get the electrical panel squared away. Current situation is this: 225A/42bkr main, completely full w/ some slim-line bkrs snuck in to boot. Only about 2/3 of the bays are labeled on the door, and some of those seem to be wrong i.e. they don’t kill power to what they say they do.
On the one hand, I can do a lot of run-around work w/ my Fluke and opening breakers and seeing what is off, going upstairs/downstairs/outside, etc. Or I can get either the better half or one of the boys to help, and just do a lot of yelling back and forth. Done them in the past, but not for this big (or messed up) of a panel.
I have two circuit tracers already. Both are the style that you plug one part into an live outlet or fixture to power it, and then take the sensor back to the breaker box. The first one I had (3 yrs old or so) works, but its sensitivity is like plus or minus several breakers, narrowing it down to about 5-6 ckts, which doesn’t save me a *whole* lot of work (some is better than none, though). The other one is a more recent purchase (GB) that I hoped was going to be more accurate, as it has a much smaller probe for picking up the ‘signal’ off the bkr. It worked about 5 minutes, and now doesn’t light up any bars at all. Unfortunately I can’t find the receipt, so I had to eat that one 🙁
Are there any decent, reliable circuit tracers out there under say, $100 that anybody can recommend from personal experience? Or am I just going to have to grit my teeth and to it ‘manually’?
TIA,
Monte
Replies
I am waiting for the answers here too!
A circuit tracer is next on my list of "electrical tool needs"
Nothing worse than a poorly labeled or unlabeled panel.
HO askes why are ALL of our clocks flashing?
You only worked on one circuit, didn't you?
Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
I use a tracer made by Progressive Electronics. It won't work on powered circuits. You have to pull each breaker, hook the tone generator to the hot wire and neutral. The probe is sensitive enough to trace wires inside the wall from a couple inches away. Fairly time consuming and a lot of walking involved. With a good helper and a pair of walkie talkies it isn't too bad. One generator and a probe are right around $100. You can use a couple generators set for different tones to save a little time, but it doesn't help all that much. You can also do it in reverse. Turn off the main, pull all the breakers. Put the generator on the unknown outlet and run the probe down the panel. Absolutely reliable but a lot of work. I don't know any that work well on a hot panel. With all the breakers hooked to their busses, the signals feed everywhere and you get a lot of false readings.
Milanuk
Pick up a Jensen or Time Motion Tools catalog.
Look in the Telephone tools section.
Pick up a cheap telephone tone generator and a tracing tool (Probe).
Hook the generator to ground and hot (BREAKER POWER OFF) and follow the wire with the tracing tool.
You'll probably need to open any splices or junctions. And maybe move the generator to splice to continue.
Years ago, I mapped out the entire communucations wiring for Ski area this way.
Good luck
Jeff
That might be worth looking into... Forgive me as I just woke up (rotating shiftwork), but how much of a time/effort saver are the tracers that have tone generators that require the circuit to be de-energized? I'm not seeing how that's a significant advantage over stumping around w/ a multimeter, if I have to open the breaker to de-energize the circuit anyway. Like I said, I may well be denser than normal at the moment, but I don't quite get it. The one that allows tracing wires thru walls could work quite spankily, but otherwise I'm a little lost.
Well, time for breakfast and some caffeine!
Thanks,
Monte
Hay Monte
I can't honestly say that in a small house, a tracer is any better then a simple radio.
The electrician who wired my house didn't follow any of the instructions that I left him.
Wires back to back, feeders going in wierd directions, multiple outlets in different rooms on one breaker, switched outlets in the wrong place.
I'm not a Master Electrician and have no license, but I do better work then he does.
In my past work, I've had to trace communication circuits over long distances, large areas, and big buildings. One of the places I worked was the 1980 Olympics in Lake Placid. Talk about fun, tracing and fixing circuits in below freezing weather.
I have ended up with a large amount of tracing tools for different needs.
A house electric wiring is pretty straight forward, unless you had the electrician from hell working on it.
I usually just use my Ohm meter for testing.
Jeff
Ok all,
I am boosting this up to the top again because alot of you have strayed from the subject!!
I believe that the desire of the original poster was/is to find a tracer that will allow you to find the breaker for a circuit without turning off a bunch of others.
The radio method is a good solo method, but that is what we are trying to get away from!
Or is it a fact that those things just don't work like they should?
If i'm gonna spend 50-100$ and still have to go thru the whole panel and run up and down the stairs then I will stick with the radio technique and let the HO reset there clocks everyday.Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Short the circuit. Blows the breaker. You were only going to turn it off anyway so it also saves you a trip to the panel. Can't handle that you need to stay away from electrical work.
Use just a bit of care and it will not, at least most of the time, cause the world to fall off its axis or the end of the western world.
Do you understand fault current? Do you understand what you are subjecting the outlet and the breaker to, not to mention the piece of wire you hold in your hand? Intentionally shorting a circuit to locate the breaker is inherently unsafe. I don't know what you do for a living, but about everybody I've ever worked w/ professionally (involved w/ electricity) would never consider doing any such foolishness. Even if you insist on continuing it yourself, I'd suggest you cease publicly advocating it on the Internet. A lot of people reading this may not know enough to be able to do it w/o getting hurt (note: I did not say 'safely'). What you do in your own time is your business, but I'm guessing most people have a little more respect for electricity.
YMMV,
Monte
Re:"Do you understand fault current?"
Of course not. Just have done the calculations a few thousand times, gone through an extensive training program and a lot of experience, some of it fairly scary, with fault currents. I could walk you through the calculations but what would be the point as you have made up your mind. Residential branch circuits. Cake.
Re: "not to mention the piece of wire you hold in your hand?"
You think that it will suddenly grow legs. Summon evil spirits. Vaporize. Get real. Better yet do a few of the actual calculations as to actual expected fault currents. Index this against the manufacturers response curves for the breaker, design criteria for cables and the energy it actually takes to shift or vaporize a copper conductor.
Re: "shorting a circuit to locate the breaker is inherently unsafe."
According to who? We are talking about 15 or 20A residential circuits not 600A three phase. Safety is both relative and an illusion. Use a little common sense and no worries. Your being emotional about something you know little about. Exactly what do you think those breakers are for? They are there to disconnect under overload or fault conditions. The breaker doesn't care if it is a carpenter hammering a nail through a cable or an electrician doing it under controlled conditions.
Electrical systems are designed, by code, to handle the fault currents available. Or in your infinite knowledge did you forget that. Get off your high horse. Electrical work is inherently dangerous. If you can't handle the stress get out of the trade.
Re: "but about everybody I've ever worked w/ professionally (involved w/ electricity) would never consider doing any such foolishness. "
Yes I have run across a lot of people who call themselves electricians who are so terrified that they cannot effectively do the job. A few months ago I get called out to back up a "difficult troubleshoot situation' Guy had used a tracker to find the right breaker. Problem was he, so typical of these devices, kept getting the the wrong one.
The machine was had lost a phase. He won't work it live. How he was going to troubleshoot it dead I don't know. But he is hung up on finding the breaker with his toy.
So hours go by as he attempts to find the breaker. Four hours has gone by with machinery down and half a plant idle. I get there and troubleshoot the contactor. It has a couple of bad contacts Trip the circuit. It was a bit larger than I like to trip. 70A 240v-3 phase. Nothing casual about this and I have limits.
No time left for plant diagrams or tracking conduits. I use gloves and covers, face shield and safety glasses, heavy retardant long sleeve shirt. Stand to side with room to move if needed. Wire screwed to enclosure free end held in Kleins to save wear on the gloves. Nice light show blowing an inch off the piece of #12. You could hear the shorted conductor centering themselves in the conduit. Sort of a shuffling twang going down the line. Very decorative flash mark.
Double check that it is off. Find the breaker. I had placed a helper near the panels to listen so the panel and breaker was easy to find. Go back. Replace the contactor. Whole job didn't take half an hour once it got started. Trackers are fine but you have to be able to handle the situation without them when they don't work. Not uncommon for them not to work in industrial three phase settings.
Re: "A lot of people reading this may not know enough to be able to do it w/o getting hurt "
No kidding. There are a lot of people out there doing electrical work who have no business doing anything more complicated or potentially electrically dangerous than putting batteries into a flashlight. Anyone incapable of handling this should not be working on an electrical system.
If you are going to do even basic troubleshooting in a timely manner your going to have to do it live. Sure you can attach batteries or go line by line with a meter but service electricians do it live on branch circuits. If you do enough of it your going to short something out. Comes with the terriory.
Re: "a little more respect for electricity. "
Not a question of respect. What your talking about is fear not respect. It is a question of knowledge of fault currents under the conditions at hand. Respect for guns doesn't mean you can't load and shoot them. You just have to know how and where to do it safely. Same with this. It works, it is relatively safe and is easily controllable. You just have to know what your up against. There are times and places it is definitely not safe but a few sparks and a little noise are not a major safety concern unless your terrified of what your working with. In that case you shouldn't be working in the field.
Of course I could tell people to 'Call a qualified electrician', people have died replacing light bulbs, and everyone would be safer but, as with all of the information on the internet, I expect people to judge their own capabilities. I you can't handle it call, hire, someone who can. The telephone book is full of electrical contractors who would be glad to help.
Whatever. You are 'set' in your ways; I'm set in mine. Both of us have our reasons and experiences to justify them. I don't have a problem w/ working hot; For years I had to troubleshoot 'deranged' equipment dead, what a PITA. Later got into troubleshooting live. Like you said, sometimes there are situations that just can't be effectively handled otherwise. Been there, done that, as have you.
Where we see things differently is I don't see it as a 'casual' trouble shooting technique, but as an absolute last resort when all else fails. You see it as an easy way to save you needless legwork and valuable time. Basically diametrically opposed viewpoints. What say we call it at that, eh?
Monte
guess this wouldn't be a good time to offer my tip on "how-to" check a gas line/ fitting for leaks ... with a match?
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
is that why they call you baldy???Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
ROTFLMFAO!!!!
Thanks, I needed that!
Monte
I'd rather check a halogen bulb with my tongue..once, only.
A remotely related question. I know that some thermal switches, such as the one on my welder, get weaker the more often they are tripped. How much of an effect does repeated tripping have on typical home breakers? Do they trip more easily the more offten they are tripped? If so, after how many trips is it recommended that they be replaced. (Very generaly guidelines only, as I assume there is some variation from manufacturer to manufacturer.)
Tho I am not an eletrician by trade..I think that breakers can get weak..whether from tripping often ( no pun) or age/degradation. Let me say something totally assinine and we'll have a hoot with the replys.."YUP CASEY..and they weld them selves ON and never will trip again"...there, lets see what comes out of the panelwerks..<G>
Didn't mean to target you specifically, but forgot to twang the magic twanger that said "ALL". Actually was aiming for 4lorn1 or IBEWBarry. But thanks for the response.
Wow ...
you guys really are babies!
all ya get with a pinhole leak ... is a pin hole flame.
Really cool when ya do have a small leak .... crank the wrench down and watch it snuff out.
This whole "safety thing" is getting over rated!
As to what 4 was saying ... way back in tech school .... they hired one guy from each dept to mop the toilets ... and use our "special training" to help the maintanence guy ...
So one day ... me.... the carpenter ... is listening to the electrical student tell the guy he can't change the bad switch ... because they can't find the right breaker ... he'd have to shut that side of the building down ... so call the alarm people ...
Said the instructor told them ... "Never work hot!"
After I got done laughing .... I grabbed his screwdriver .... and took 3 min to replace that switch.
I asked the guy what was he gonna do if the only job out there was working along side my Dad on the railroad .... sticking his head in one of those big switch boxes .... standing in a puddle of water ... as rain and sleet poured down?
Ask the railroad to shut down while he trouble shot?
Working hot can be done ... safely ... and gas fittings can be tested safely with a match.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
Casey,
When a breaker trips the copper bar has to heat up, bend,and slide off the latch.When it cools it has to bend back to it's original shape.Sometimes it doesn't.I'm sure the Annointed One would say that tripping breakers is nothing to be concerned about,he does it everyday, ...blah, blah,blah.The guys that I've worked with that have spent more time in nuclear power plants say that it's mandatory if a circuit breaker trips it has to be replaced because its internal characteristics have changed.
Barry
So you're saying what...........................
Replace the breaker after every trip? Just to be safe??????????
Or just at nuclear power plants............please clarify. You're sounding a little paranoid, and more than a little anal.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Just a couple of trips and they seem to not work right any more.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
Doesn't jive with my experiene. This includes many jobs over a 33 year career where breakers were pushed to the limit and blown multiple times. I mean even over the course of one day, let alone the course of the job. (Square D seems to be the most common brand around my area.)
The only breakers I've heard my electricians complain about are Federal Pacific. They call them no-blows. A dangerous situation indeed. Any remodel job I take that involves Federal Pacific boxes, I recomend replacing the whole box.I once had to replace a breaker in a FedPac box, and had to pay $27.00 for it. It wouldn't take many breakers to justify replacing the whole box.
John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
Edited 1/2/2004 7:36:30 PM ET by Svenny
There's several insurance companies that won't insure you if you have an FPE panel or they write an exclusion.
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
"where fuses were pushed to the limit and blown multiple times"
ummm... you mean breakers, right? ;)
Monte
yep. I'll edit.John Svenson, Builder, Remodeler, NE Ohio (Formerly posted as JRS)
My experiences seem to mirror yours. While I have had breakers fail to work or reset after shorting they seem to be, an unscientific sample to be sure, ones that have been at the end of their service life, old, or exposed to moisture or chemicals, as in some pole barn installations or water treatment rooms. I suspect, and have found in couple of cases after breaking open the case, corrosion.
I have had breakers fail under less stressful conditions. Many more in fact. Failure to reset or, less often, failure of one leg to trip or, sometimes, disconnect when turned off manually are common situations. XOs seem especially prone to both these later problems but any breaker can do the same with sufficient age.
Most electricians, not to be confused with electrical installers who just make the parts look like the plans, that I have talked to agree that FP breakers are questionable. The presence of a FP panel is defacto cause to upgrade. FP replacement breakers in the smaller sizes are available but mains and particularly three phase mains are quite expensive. The price asked for a 600A three phase FP might take your breath away. Their prices often more than the cost of replacing the entire panel.
Anal is a mild way to describe the maintenance procedures used in the nuclear field. My original training was in the military as a nuclear electrical operator/ technician on a Los Angeles class submarine. The majority of the operators, and a fair number of the maintenance people in civilian nuke plants have some sort of similar military background. The mentality is to replace it before it can fail. Failure is *not* an option. Not several hundred feet below the sea, nor in a nuke power plant upwind of a major metro area.
After I got out of the Navy, I went and worked as a motor control tech. for a while (USWA Local 13). After a while, I think I'd forgotten just how picky and anal the nuke world was, so I went back into a prototype operations/maintenance position at a nuke plant. Some of the stuff there was over the top, even by my ex-military standards. Tie-wraps had to be tightened w/ special tools, that had to be calibrated and certified to put a specific amount of pressure, no more, no less on the cable. Why? If not tight enough, the cable tie doesn't do its job. Too tight, and they can actually cut thru the insulating jacket in high-vibration environments. But still seemed a bit extreme, even to me.
As far as the breakers in your house... well, they see such sporadic use, it's hard to say. In a stint as a substation mainenance tech, I had a problem where a $10-20 Square-D breaker tripped on a control power circuit feeding a oil circuit recloser. Result: the recloser acted like a slug, didn't work, and started a fire when the lines it was protecting went down. Scada would have been nice, but not available yet. Kind of aggravating to have to explain that a $10 part failure caused a *lot* of problems, and no, there really wasn't anything we could have done about it w/ the current state of things. But it did give me a different view of the little home circuit breakers (thats all that Square-D was, in the station service panel). Not sure how far I trust them. I don't necessarily think you need to go replacing them every time they trip. But I also don't think it's a good idea to intentionally go hammering them w/ deliberate short circuits. It's one thing on big heavy duty oil circuit breakers and reclosers designed to be tested and overhauled, but on a basically disposable black box, how much do you really want to abuse it? Obviously, opinions vary. For the nuke plants, perhaps their circuit protection analysis dictates tight enough specs that they can't afford much fudge factor in breaker performance. For your house... well, there is probably enough wiggle room that normal trips from time-delay overloads like too many things plugged in isn't a big deal. Instantaneous trips from short circuits make me nervous, personally. Much more severe shock to the hardware.
4Lorn1 makes his case that it works just fine, and shouldn't cause any problems, and someone else says their electrician friend disagrees. Myself (not a card carrying electrician, so take my experience above for what it's worth) and at least one other person here seem to think it may be a practice best avoided. So it comes down to a judgement call for you, I guess. If you trust the provided circuit protection, including the individual breaker for the circuit, the main breaker, the fuse on your transformer, etc. to work 100% as advertised on the money every time to protect you, then you most likely don't have much to worry about. I've ran into some weird stuff in the time I spent in the electrical field, some of it of the 'damn, that <piece of protective equipment> should have operated and prevented this whole mess' flavor. I understand the reason (though not necessarily agree with it) behind places that have double isolation lockout/tagout safety procedures. Components fail, and not usually at a time, place, or manner of your choosing.
YMMV,
Monte
BS
Right back at you my inexperienced friend. You keep working at it and one day you too can be an electrician.
And from your Captain Testosterone speech I'd say you would need an extension ladder just to kiss a professional electrician's a$$.
OOOH good one!!!!
OK 4lorn1 say something good about unions!!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
It's going to be hard for you to become a 'professional electrician' if you don't know what one looks like. Of course you might, if your lucky, run into one when you get into the second year of your apprenticeship.
I just hope you haven't been educationally crippled by being labeled qualified or journeyman. You obviously don't know a lot of the intricacies of code or theory but these things can be learned if you haven't been pegged as 'qualified' and are willing to learn. Being on this site, discounting of your childish petulance, is a good sign.
Look real hard finding someone to emulate because I find the average level of competency in the IBEW has been going down for the last five years or so. Their COMET program attempted to control the market by controlling the majority of the qualified labor. To do this they let people in as journeymen who would have been better off coming in as second year apprentices and getting some training to back up the OJT training and misinformation they had previously received.
Quite a few people who call themselves electricians but are glorified helpers joined for increased wages and benefits but it lowered the average skill level. Most are easy to spot as they advertise their connection to the IBEW loudly. They do this to make sure people know that someone, anyone, thinks they are qualified. Most of the best hands limit their advertisement of association with the IBEW to a discreet pin or decal. No need to flaunt it. They know what they stand for.
The contractors didn't loose much as the prevalence of right-to-work states, elimination of journey licensing as a requirement and the 'ratio' allowed them to bring people off the street and call them electrician. Tragic for the industry. Most work for about $15 an hour and have a very limited skill set.
Used to be a IBEW journeyman had to have a wide skill set, residential, commercial and industrial, old work, design and troubleshooting. You had to be able to do, or have a working knowledge of, it all. I run into too many that have only a few skills. The guy who can bend and thread RMC often can't handle romex and known next to nothing about transformers or controls. Nothing but a narrowly trained helper. Specialization is for insects.
These undertrained workers are warned to never work anything live as they are not qualified to do otherwise. They are afraid of electricity because they don't understand it. Being afraid they are likely to freak out and do exactly the wrong thing if anything unusual happens. Had a guy drop a screwdriver across buss bars when the moisture in the panel cooked off with a 'pop' as it was energized after a long down time. The tool caused damage that the moisture would not have. Fear and inexperience.
Of course he claimed to be 'qualified'. Come to find out he had spent a summer installing receptacles for a new retail big box so he felt that he was an electrician. Not even close.
A final point. If you want respect show it to others. If you have specific issues with what I, or anyone else, posts state it as such. Be specific. You can do this publicly on the board or privately through the e-mail feature.
Better come up with a good one Barry.
Your Losin'!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
Dude,
You have more BS than all of the other people on this site put together.You drone on and on like you're the world's authority on everything electrical.Sometimes I might agree with you,often on methods I don't.When you advocated placing a short circuit across a circuit breaker the original poster was absolutely correct in pointing out your foolishness.NO QUALIFIED electrician does that.When you went on to attack the man with your macho, shop rocket ,cowboy BS I felt the response I gave was completely appropriate.You then lobbed the first insult.
You might BS some of the homeowner/handyman types about your knowledge and abilities,but any experienced wireman reading your post would recognize what a pi$$ poor practice that you claim to be so good at.You might like to turn this into a debate about working things hot ,which we all do when we have to,but it isn't.It's about you having total disregard for,and deliberately causing, short circuit current.Yeah I know you've done "thousands" of available short circuit calculations...right...just more 4Lorn BS.
The IBEW didn't teach you to have such disregard for common safety practice,so don't try to drag them into it.They didn't when I served my apprenticeship in the early 80's and they don't today.They gave me an excellent education and I'm not afraid to use the organization's initials in my screen name.If you don't like it,go pi$$ up a rope.
I've worked with literally hundreds of electricians over the years and I've seen your "method" used only once before.When the contractor on a remodel job found out the guy was smashing light fixtures with a sledge hammer to open the circuit breaker,because he was too f'n fat and lazy to find it the right way,he was $hitcanned immediately.
This is getting good. Right now, I think it's a tie.
But Mr. Lorn sorta blew it with his trick with 70 amps. 20 amps I can understand and have seen it done. But 70 amps? He said something about the cables whipping around in the conduit. That could damage the cables. Not good.
As for working live, I could refer you to the Electrical Injuries site which is gross. But I'll hold off for now. [Save the big guns 'til later.] In his post, 4 mentioned the factory being half shut down and it had to be re-started in a hurry. This shutdown was not Mr. Lorns fault and he should be under no pressure to risk his life to work hot or take expedient shortcuts. As I mentioned in my previos post, there should have been an up-to-date label on the contactor. Where was it? Why wasn't it there? Now you have a frantic manager fretting about losing $50,000/hr. with this shutdown but why didn't he have someone spend a couple of hours properly labeling things?
~Peter
Everyone is entitled to my opinion.
Peter,
The shorting out of the 70 amp breaker is the story that really ticked me off.
You're an electrician,haven't you seen short circuit current go right through a branch breaker and trip a main? Larger breakers are made to open in less time than branch circuit breakers under big inrushes of short circuit current.Personal injury aside this guy's cowboy heroics could have easily led to the whole plant going dark because he's trying to find the feed to one machine.
Barry
4Lorn is one of ou
r most euridite posters and not only that-- he is auriculate.
But to answer your question, I have seen four breakers trip. This was all Jason #2's fault. We were installing a transformer [X4mr] and he decided that the four holes in the concrete floor had to be drill in these particular spots since the position of the thing was fixed by circumstances. But he failed to notice that 1" below the smooth surface of the concrete floor was a conduit running from the 277/480 panel to the cold water heater. So Brian started drilling away and went right into the conduit and shorted two of the wires, the yellow and another. There was a distinctive sound.
This caused the breaker to trip. It also caused the breaker feeding these four classrooms to trip. This also caused the breaker in the main electrical room feeding the classrooms to trip. It also caused the main breaker feeding that section of the campus to trip. It is hard to reset a large breaker like that. I still have a piece of the yellow #10 wire and the tip of is is actually melted. Like solder.
Accidents are the result of a lot of bad things happening all at once. You can get by 99 times in a row and then the 100th time -- KA-BOOM! The way to minimize accidents is to avoid taking chances. The fact that he put on goggles and gloves and held the wire loop with his poor Kleins, indicates that he knew he was doing something risky. If it works, fine he saves the edgy manager $50,000/ hr. If it doesn't, he gets blinded, burns his arm off, has his hand explode. What's even worse, is the factory still doesn't work and then OSHA comes and starts enforcing fines for disobedience of rules that OSHA didn't enforce in the first place. And what does Mr. Lorn get for saving this theoretical $50,000/hr.? $100/hr.? So if he takes 4 hours to trace the circuits and conduits, then he makes $400 and he does it safely. But then again, if the contactor and its feed were properly labeled in the first place, there would be no problem.
As for the nuclear power plant: this is one area where they actually do things by the book. Including labeling circuits. [Assunption.]
~Peter
Add: I can see using his method in a matter of life or death. If some chap's got his hands clenched around a couple of hot wires and he's vibrating at 60 hertz and smoke is coming out of his ears, it's a good idea to grab a piece of heavy cable, carefully strip the ends [don't wanna nick the wires], don personnal protection gear and then short that lollipop out.
Everyone is entitled to my opinion. 29 days and counting.
Edited 1/1/2004 3:33:34 PM ET by PM22
Barry,
I have a friend who is a very knowledgeable electrician. I asked him about the short circuit method to trip breakers. He was all for it. Same logic as 4Lorn. If you understand the principles and don't do anything stupid, you'll be okay.
The reason I'm telling you is he is a long time journeyman in the IBEW local 134 (Chicago).
BTW, I trust him, so that is why I use his/4Lorn's technique.
Jon Blakemore
Jon,
If that's what your buddy tells you I hope he also tells you to make sure you have your safety glasses on.If the breaker has been in a damp basement or garage and a little corrosion keeps the breaker from physically opening,what do you think will happen next?
Barry
Edited 1/1/2004 10:33:16 AM ET by IBEW Barry
What do you do if the house is still using fuses(like mine) Gets to be a pita to replace those.
Buck up and install a breaker box.
NUFF SAID!
4lorn and Larry..
Don't stop now this is getting good!Mr T
Do not try this at home!
I am an Experienced Professional!
I am renting and my lanlord is a cheap sob
I just got the GB for xmas..found that it is not the best but when you put the probe..RIGHT WHERE the wire screws to the breaker it is a bunch better than on top of the breaker itself. If you have not yet done so, take off the inner breaker cover and go along side..mine works..(fingers crossed) (X)
I have been through many, the best one I have is a plug in radio with the volume turn up
The best employee you can have but you wouldn't want him as a neighbor " He the shifty type"
I havent bought a tracer either . I had been thinking Im stone age in that department . I will follow the thread and Im glad it was posted .
I will tell this so everyone can laugh.
I have an electrical tool box set up for remodeling . In the bottom lay homade devices to hook up to different stuff . Extension cords to nearly anything. By my self it works well. Voice activated walkies are fast with two people.
Tim Mooney
I'd thought I'd tried the darn thing every way I could imagine, but I tried it again like you mentioned anyway. Still nothing. Not a hint of anything. Really kind of a bummer, as I'd gotten the accessory kit w/ the screw-in plug for incandescent fixtures, plus another adapter w/ alligator clips for hooking onto switch terminals. Coulda made my own, but shrink-wrap has its appeal ;)
Thanks anyway,
Monte
I use a cheap ($40) unit from HD. I think made by Sperry, sounds much like the 3 year old one you already have. But it works for me. One thing about it, there is a "tuning" wheel to adjust the sensitivity, but it is way too sesitive. Seems like turning one degree either way can mean the difference between finding 3 breakers , 1 breaker, or nothing. I've found the best way to counter this is to turn it on, and put it on the main breaker. Then turn the wheel until the tone is on and then goes off. Then slowly turn the wheel back until the tone just barely comes on again. Then slide it along all the breakers, and it will be limited to just the breaker needed.
I swear, mine works when used in this manner.
If everything seems to be going well, you've obviously overlooked something.
Dunno how you got so lucky ;) Yes, mine has the wheel. The bizarre part is if I turn down the sensitivity w/ the wheel, it starts giving inconclusive results, like it can't decide which breaker the signal is coming in on. First on one, next time on another, next time on none at all... as you said, a very fine line btwn signal everywhere, and nowhere. Not something I feel comfortable relying on. Ultimately I intend to confirm everything hot or dead w/ my fluke or wiggy, but I'd like to be a little more sure before I start turning things off and going outlet to outlet.
Milanuk,
Those phone toners do seem to work the best,but I think that you're not supposed to use them on hot circuits.The company that I work for has a couple of different toners(they sound like an ambulance siren) and also the kind that you have,that does work on hot circuits,only ours is made by Greenlee.I don't care much for the Greenlee,it's only a little better than guessing sometimes.
Sometimes you do just have to summon your patience and be methodical about identifying circuits.We worked on a large grocery store re-model two years ago that had probably 20 electrical panels to relocate,eliminate or re-feed.Everyday we had to assess which circuits were operational and had to be maintained,which could be set aside for a particular move,and which had been abandoned over time.It was extremely time consuming.Sometimes we would trace circuits out to abandoned j-boxes where they sat,hot,for years.Other times we would find lighting circuits that were back fed off of the same phase,sometimes in two different panels.When you have an older structure with different people working on it at different times,take your time and use the process of elimination to exhaust all possibilities.
At home I use the same method as Johnny B.
Barry
Here are a couple of ideas. The more things that you can combine the quicker and better the results.
First get on of the $10-20 tick testers. They are not good enought to guarnatee that a circuit is off 100.000% of the time. But they are very good at making a quick check of a receptacle or switch to see if they have power. Once you have ID'd one device on the circuit and turned that breaker off, then you can use the tick tester to check all of the other devices in that room and adajcent walls to see what all is on that circuit.
And if you have the wife or kid available get some of the new style walky talkies. You can set a set for I think under $50, but if you can't get them to help you need the exercise anyway running up and down the stairs <G>.
Start with the tracter that you have. And get a small AM radio. Turn to a station at the low end of the AM band. If it is like mine you will hear a ticking sound. Use the probe to pin down the breakers to to a couple. They using the radio flip them on/off one at a time until the ticking stops.
Well, that sounds like about the best option I have at the moment. One of the tone generators that can be used to trace wires thru the wall does sound awful handy for demolition/remodel work, but I think for now I'll try this out.
Thanks,
Monte
Have an electronic tracer. I use it mostly for tracking underground feeders. It works well in this roll but using it is more an art than a science. Cost me around $250. I have used it for tracking circuits indoors but, as with all of the tracers I have used, results are mixed. Back feeds, interference, getting sidetracked by parallel runs are all issues.
My recommendation is to use two techniques. First: get a radio without an automatic battery backup, or remove the batteries if it has this feature. Plug or connect, a two prong receptacle that will screw into a standard Edison bases light bulb socket and a female cord cap hooked to a pair of alligator clips are useful accessories, to the circuit in question. Crank the tunes. Flip breakers until the music stops. Try it a couple of times to make sure the song didn't just end.
The other technique is to simply short out the circuit. A short length of copper wire helps bridge the gap and keeps you hands a few inches away. Don't use your tools unless you just like the arc flash look. Of course wearing safety glasses and a simple pair of leather gloves can save your eyes and skin.
Quick flash. A few sparks, think of this as an early 4th of July, and the breaker reveals itself by tripping. Of course some old and obsolete breakers are notorious for being able to 'weld' with them. If the circuit doesn't trip after one or two touches don't keep doing it.
[quote]
The other technique is to simply short out the circuit. A short length of copper wire helps bridge the gap and keeps you hands a few inches away. Don't use your tools unless you just like the arc flash look. Of course wearing safety glasses and a simple pair of leather gloves can save your eyes and skin.
Quick flash. A few sparks, think of this as an early 4th of July, and the breaker reveals itself by tripping. Of course some old and obsolete breakers are notorious for being able to 'weld' with them. If the circuit doesn't trip after one or two touches don't keep doing it.
Ah... I'll pass, thanks. I used to work as an industrial motor control tech, and later as a substation maint. tech. I've done enough 'screwdriver welding' by accident, no intention of doing it on purpose.
Thanks anyway,
Monte
At 120v and typical branch circuit conditions it is considerably less impressive a display than what your probably used to. Just a quick pop normally. Once you do the first two or three it becomes 'no big thing'. I do it a couple of times a week. Saves a lot of time and adds to the mystique of the electrical trade. Makes customers happier forking over the cash as they pay less and appreciate what I do more.
4,
At one of my jobs, Leaping Lotus, my foreman invented a device such as you mentioned. It was a handy box with a switch and two wires sticking out. Once the wires were plugged into the receptacle in question, the switch was flipped and the breaker quickly revealed its hidden identity.
But this begs the question. There is a vague MEC rule which requires panelboards to be labeled. There are number books available but they cost over $6 and are very boring to read. Pictures are routinely not taken of walls before they are covered by gypsumboard. This is to save time and money. Then hours are spent trying to find the plastered over electrical box. Maps are not drawn showing where the uncompleted conduits are buried. Even the pirates were better than this.
Even if there are panel schedules, they are often vague. Bedroom #1, corridor lights, etc. This in a school with corridors and hallways all over the place. Where is panel "HA-7"?
I would prefer a detailed plan of the house with all circuits marked.
~Peter
I use the low cost version of that device, some people make all the money and can afford the high dollar tools, a 8" piece of #12 THHN with about an inch stripped on both ends. Shove one end into the left-hand slot in the receptacle and the other end into the right-hands slot and 'POOF', technical terminology to be used by trained electricians only, the breaker does a quick duck-and-cover. A second stab to make sure the breaker tripped and the tripped breaker is usually easy to spot.
NEC and most code authorities having jurisdiction, inspectors, demand a panel schedule posted at the panel. Of course twenty years, and a few dozen HO and 'family friend' modifications, the original panel schedule usually has very little to do with the reality of the situation. Things happen.
On older homes I can usually create a panel schedule, with a helper, in ten minutes or so. If I'm doing it by myself it takes a bit longer. A bit longer still if the house is one of those oversized McMansions.
Hey everybody,
I've used several makes of circuit tracer. The one I've had the best luck with (to trace live branch circuits) is the Gardner-Bender GET-1200. If I recall right, it cost me about $60.
It's in the G-B catalogue, about pg 144. See gardner-bender.com
The tracer has a sender with a two-prong plug that goes into a receptacle outlet, and a receiver unit that is well-designed--it's a box about the size of a pack of cigs, that has a magnetic back (so it attaches to the panel door), with a probe linked by a cable about 18" long. You have to take the deadfront (interior cover) off of the panel you're working on. The thing is accurate when you follow the directions and run the probe along the breakers in the right orientation. I've used it in single-phase and 3-phase panels, and it really works. I wish they'd re-design the switches (on the receiver), as it's easy to have it turn on accidentally and drain the battery.
With the GB unit, as with any circuit tracer where the sender unit is AC-powered, it's easy to confirm which breaker controls the one that the sender is pluggged into--you shut off the breaker, and if you've got the right breaker, that shuts off the sender. This is good, because any RF signal (whether from an AC powered sender or a telephone type toner) can bleed over to adjacent conductors.
If you are using a tel. cable tracer (battery powered, circuit has to be dead), the way to confirm that you've got the wire with the tone on it, is to short together the two wires ("pair" in telco speak) onto which you're squirting tone.
In other words, clip the red toner lead to the black (ungrounded), de-energized conductor, and the black toner lead to the grounding conductor. Make sure that there is nothing plugged into the circuit; those wall wart transformers are a high resistance short between hot and neutral (which is tied to ground at the service point). A light bulb is a low-resistance "short". Having a "short" across the two wires will diminish the toner volume a lot. When you think you have the panel end of the black (or other ungrounded) wire to which the toner is clipped, short that wire to ground. If you ahve the right wire, this will kill the tone (in telco parlance, "short the pair to kill the tone"). It's how you confirm that you have a metallic path back to the toner, and you're not just picking up bleed-over tone.
Although you can use a telco style toner & probe on de-energized power wiring, I recommend against it. Get the GB unit, play around with it to learn how to use it, and things will go a lot faster.
To speed things up, I've toyed with the idea of fabricating indicator lights (a cord cap with a 3' length of 14-3 romex, with a neon light in the end [and an appropriate resistor]). My thinking is to make up a couple dozen of these things, and plug 'em into all the receptacles in one part of a house or office. The 14/3 stalk would be solid enough yet flexible, to place the light where I could see it above furniture or desks. Then I use the tracer to identify a circuit in a room, and when I turn it off, I can walk back to the room and see what's on that circuit. Maybe this winter I'll limber up the soldering iron...
Get the G-B for branch circuit tracing, and get a toner & probe for low-voltage work; the Progressive Electronics 77HP is the best readily available telco style toner there is. The standard Progressive probe is good, their AC-filter model is better--you can turn on a 60-Hz filter in the probe circuitry.
Happy New Year--
Cliff
Cliff,
Unfortunately, the GET-1200 is the *exact* model that I have that doesn't work worth a flip. Zip, nada. Maybe mine is just defective. Like I said, it was a couple weeks before I first tried it, and I could no longer find the store receipt, so I figured I was SOL.
4Lorn1,
Most of my 'experiences' w/ arcing tools was inside motor control cabinets (mostly 110-250v, AC and DC) and the like doing live work. There was a reason most of my tools were either coated in plastisol or else 'half-lap/double-wrap' taped w/ electrical tape. And I wore gloves and sleeves and face shield, flame-retardnent clothing, etc. as needed. I'll admit to being involved w/ smoke-testing some things, but doing it w/ hand tools (especially in *my* hands) is a little over the edge. About the part where you mention it's no big deal after a while, well, thats where I saw experienced electricians and technicians have their most dangerous accidents, because they had become complacent and didn't consider 110v 'very dangerous' anymore. Not good.
Good luck to you, and I hope you stay well.
Monte
Point taken. One must always take care. Failing to respect electricity is, as Tom Waits would say, is 'an invitation to the blues'. Can't see it. Can't outrun it. Reasonable precautions are always called for.
I do a lot of work live because it is the only way to trouble shoot the situation. Killing the circuit removes all the symptoms I need to diagnose the situation. Tripping a breaker is a time honored technique. It has a place as long as the practitioner knows what is involved. Purposely shorting a circuit under controlled circumstance, I don't do it casually, and at a time and place of my choosing is, IMHO, a lot less hazardous than the many situations where people commonly short out things by accident.
There are definite situations where it is not wise to do it under anything but emergency conditions. Under situations of high available short circuit current (Much bigger Phoof), low impedance, higher voltages, confined locations where you can't get away, situations, like laying in a mud puddle, where you are grounded.
Electronic trackers have not been around for most of the history of electricity. They are useful but not as yet perfected. Even the best ones are lacking. Fine if you have the time but quite often woefully inefficient if you are under time constraints.
I mapped out the outlets in one house when I didn't have any tools with me by going to the hardware store and buying a bunch of really cheap nightlights. They were less than a buck apiece and were surprisingly bright. The house was vacant so I didn't have to worry about furnature, but a couple of short, cheap extention cords would have taken care of that.
I have the GB unit, though I haven't had a chance to use it much. One thing I noticed that the angle at which you hold the probe is important -- there's a coil in there and it needs to line up with the current flow in the wire for maximum pickup.
Still, it's only good +/- one breaker. But that still is pretty good. Remember, when you trip the right breaker the signal will stop, so it's a pretty quick check.
Thanks. I'm going to fiddle w/ that GB one a bit more and see if I can figure out *something* to get it working at all. If all else fails I'll just get a set of the walkie-talkies and enlist the better half or one of the kids. I can always use the walkie-talkies for other stuff as well later on.
Thanks again,
Monte