I’ve already done this today on my own house, but I feel dirty about it. I moved my original washer and gas dryer upstairs, and put in all electric where they were in the basement. I needed to run a 220 wire, and the dryer is right on the point of that octagon, both rooms finished and hard to get in through the siding.
So, I bored through the brick and poured wall (downhill out, and exiting above grade) and ran my new UF outside. Then I drove a long spade down beside the foundation, levering back the soil to make a slot about 12″ deep. I merely put the wire down in that, put in yellow tape that says “Biological Hazard, Do Not Enter (all I had) above it, and stomped it all back flat.
Over on the left I went in to the part that’s on a crawl, and then to my DC in the center of the house.
I hope some real electrician will tell me “well, I wouldn’t do it, but it’s probably OK . . .
Forrest
Replies
Mt propane line is real similar, and that was the tank co that installed it.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Save a few posts, fill in your Profile, we can help!
In theory you should have put concrete on top, and/or run it in conduit, but I don't think any of us are going to report you to the feds as an electro-terrorist.
happy?
I have seen worse. And no, I wouldn't have done it that way.
You should be given a sound birching but you would probably enjoy it. You might do it more often just to get the stimulation. Lets not, say we did and leave it at that.
You have confessed and repented so: 'Go forth and sin no more'.
It's in. It works and probably no one will get killed by it. You could make it a bit safer with a few lengths of pressure treated 2by4. Stuff them into the dirt along the wall over the cable. It won't be code but it should provide some physical protection if anyone starts to root around with a shovel. At least give them some warning.
Given a perfect world you would volunteer to rip it out and put it in by Code. This isn't a perfect world.
I can't see it from my house.......
but are you planning on protecting the exposed UF ??
Sometimes you have to do what you have to do to get by. I'm not gonna give you absolution. (although I am an ordained minister and could) I just hope I never buy your house. But it will probably serve you well for years. Someone suggested pt lumber on top. I guess that's better then nothing. Considering one day another owner could be diggin down there and a barracade might slow him down from hitting it with a backhoe. Bio hazard tape isn't much.
You din't put the tape right on top of the wire so when they hit the tape they hit the wire at the same time did you?
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
Nah, the tapes about 6" above the wire. The wire is tight against the foundation, actually an inch under the brick, which hangs off the brick ledge in the poured wall about an inch. You couldn't hit the wire with a shovel even, unless you skidded it down the brick.
Keep going; I'm feeling better!
Forest
Don't feel too much better. As a remodeling contractor, I'll let you slide on the short scope ( you're going to make it right when weather permits ).
If you're going to call it good, walk away, and leave it for someone else to "find" I have a problem with your answer for instant gratification.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
What's the best "right" IYO? Conduit? Place a 4-6" concrete covering over the 25-30 feet outside? I just hate to cut through the rooms. . .
Forrest
(BTW, the UF is in 1/2 PVC conduit through the masonry and into the grade)
Edited 1/22/2006 8:47 pm by McDesign
I'm thinking conduit.
With proper transitions and terminations - so that a qualified individual who will work on it down the road will be able to see where you were going with it.
I am not MR. NEC but I sure like it when I come across work that was done in acordance w/ NEC so that i have a clue what to expect.
The low bid j - offs wouldn't know the difference, but I feel we owe it to the qualified people that will come behind us to do our best to do a good ,quality job.
I've witnessed "Fast homebuilding" and I've witnessed " Cheap Home building" but they don't have a magazine.Remodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Hey, you've gotten your knocks on the installation method, so I'll leave that alone.
My question is, how many conductors and what gage of UF cable?
Nah, I can't resist. On the installation--the issue is the burial depth. If you went 24" below grade, it's be a Code-compliant installation, and a lot safer than what you got. If you cover with concrete, to be code-compliant, burial has to be in a trench at least 18" deep with 2" of concrete cover (2002 NEC, Table 300.5, column 1).
You mentioned not wanting to pull off the siding. Did you consider gaining access from interior walls? Easy to open and patch if sheetrock. If wood lathe & plaster, I understand your reluctance to go that way. But it's the right way to do it.
Safety aside (in terms of burial depth), are you in an area where salt is used for clearing away ice? Although UF cable is intended for direct burial, when salt used for melting ice soaks into the ground, it's going to get into the cable and to the copper conductors, and may, in time, corrode the wire. If you ran heavier gage cable with aluminum conductors--time to dig it up and do it right.
Back to the cable type--if you ahve a conventional dryer, hope you ran 3-conductor with ground, to provide 240/120 and a separate equipment grounding conductor.
Cliff
On the conductor size, I've even inquired (on an earlier project, checking the electrician). All 30-A dryers here are 10-2, with bond connected to the neutral bus. It seeemd odd to me, tha'ts why I asked the inspector.
Forrest
10-2?
Electrician did a hook up for me last week, said they're using five wire now. Everything needs to be separate, whites, grounds, 110...
You got off easy.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Five wire?? What's the 5th wire for?
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
One white for each black.
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
But the two blacks are part of a 240V circuit -- only one white should be required for both. (And where do you find the 5-pin plug and socket for this?)
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
You're asking ME ???;o)I just gave the most logical answer. No idea how it works...
Rudeness is the weak man's imitation of strength. ~~ Eric Hoffer
Dan - I have no frikken idea what it's for otherwise I woud have at least thought of wiring it myself !!
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations- New Construction - Rentals
The way I read it you would have a seperate hot for any 110 feature which would keep the two hots for 220/240 balanced. But I have never seen any appliance set up to accept five. Have not heard of any intent to go there either.
Thanks to all -
Forrest
If you were going to have a separate 120V circuit, it should be a separate circuit, with separate hot and neutral and on a separate breaker. Under some circumstances it could share the ground.If you're going to pull 120V off a split 240V circuit you don't really need to worry about balance -- the neutral (except in certain industrial cases) is sized such that one side can be at full load with no load on the other.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I was just going by the first post mention on this. I agree with you it makes no sense.
"10-2?
Electrician did a hook up for me last week, said they're using five wire now. Everything needs to be separate, whites, grounds, 110...
You got off easy.
Don K."
Okay - I spent a busy morning! I talked to the lead electrician at my current project (I'm a GC) about how his company satisfies the inspector, Then called Inspections and Permits, then looked at the panel in the house from which I took the Dryer (wired in 1984) and my own panel (wired in 1993).
The way the code is interpreted in Newton County, GA, TODAY is basd on the SE cable to the panel. IF the SE cable is 4-wire (separate ground), then the Dryer HAS to be wired with 10-3. IF the SE cable is 3-wire (2 hots and neutral only), then the Dryer MAY be wired with 10-2.
The house from which I took the dryer, literally across the street from my house, has a 3-wire SE cable to the panel. My house has a 4-wire SE cable.
SO -
As I carried the dryer across the street, its legal 3-pin plug became illegal as it entered my yard!
Now I know, and better yet, I know why legality or code compliance can be specific to a street address!
I'll replace the 10-2 with 10-3, update my dryer pigtail and receptacle, and feel good all over.
Forrest
I don't think that you got the full or complete explaination or they did not understand the question properly.I don't think that a NEW installation across the street could be done with 3 wire setup.I think that what they where getting at was even before 96 change in the code that installation from a SUB-PANEL would require a 4 wire dryer and range installation.Having a 4 wire SE to the panel indicates that it is a sub-panel and that there is an main disconnect/service entrance upstream of the panel.
I don't think that you got the full or complete explaination or they did not understand the question properly.
What, do I stutter? :-)
I don't think that a NEW installation across the street could be done with a 3-wire setup.
A new installation WAS done across the street (not by the electricians I use) last April with 8-2 because the new owner (bought it in early 2005) wanted their washer/dryer stack unit in a different place in the laundry room (that's how I got the old dryer)
I think that what they where getting at was even before 96 change in the code that installation from a SUB-PANEL would require a 4 wire dryer and range installation. Having a 4 wire SE to the panel indicates that it is a sub-panel and that there is an main disconnect/service entrance upstream of the panel.
Correct - my house has a 400A meter base, flanked by two 200A disconnects, with two SE cables to my electrical room and two 200A breaker panels, about 20 feet from the nearest outside wall.
Forrest
That does not meet code unless you area still uses a pre 1996 version of the NEC or has specifically modified that section.Since 96 a 4 wire circuit has been requaired.Also 10-2 NM or UF is not legal for a 3 wire circuit. Unless it uses a SE cable the neutral has to be insulated and white. Thus 10-3 w/o ground could be used, but not 10-2 w/ground.
Hey, I agree - but it's what they enforce here - the dryer plug is only 3-pin, anyway. Black to one pole of the breaker, white with black tape stripe to the other - so says our County inspector.
Forrest
Current code is for a 4-pin plug on standard dryers -- hot/hot/neutral/ground. 3-pin is only allowed as a retrofit for existing circuits.If the OP really installed just hot/hot/ground then he should plan to dig it up and do it right -- that's the last straw.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Chances are great that he can go to Ace Hardware and buy a new 4-prong pigtail for his washing machine, and replace the old one that's on there. There was a ground screw conveniently provided on my older Maytag for just that purpose.
This thread is a great example of why electrical work ought to be done by electricians. What else does McDesign not know about electrical?
For anyone lamenting the loss of Firebird, he rose like Lazarus from the ashes of the pyre on which he was burned. You gotta figure out for yourself who he is now.
Like I said, 3-prong is only legal for pre-existing WIRING. All stoves and dryers produced since about 1970 have been able to be wired for 4-wire plugs.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
I thought he was running a new feed. Maybe I didn't read enough.
He was, which is why I said it was the last straw -- rip it out and do it right.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Hey guys, be gentle - I never claimed to be an electrician (I'm a Mechanical Engineer, by degree) - I merely copied what is typically done around here, for my own personal use, noted that I disagreed with it, and asked y'all for advice.
After all the preaching and digression, I have learned that I should replace the conducter with 10-3, change the dryer pigtail and receptacle to 4-pin, and run the outside through conduit under a concrete cover.
Okay? That's what I asked!
Sheesh!
Forrest
I will give absolution ( as long as you are going to make it right)
OoooMaaaas, Dooooomaaaas
You're good now
P.S. good attitudeRemodeling Contractor just on the other side of the Glass City
Thanks -but HE's (davidmeiland ) the one that really hurt my feelings . .
<sniff>
Forrest
C'mon, look at the title of your thread. You posted it knowing you had done something half-####, right? I certainly did not intend to hurt your feelings, but I think you should take electrical wiring a lot more seriously if you're going to do it yourself.
Yep, that's it. There are depth rules in the code, but with conduit under a couple of inches of concrete, against a foundation (and no inspector looking over your shoulder) you can be a hair lax on those.Note that, at the breaker box end, the white will go to the neutral bus bar and the bare/green will go to the ground bus bar. (The two other wires of course connect to the 240V breaker.) The two bus bars may be connected together somehow inside the breaker box, or there may in fact be only one ground/neutral bus bar, but you still need the two wires (neutral/ground), run separately and connected separately -- you shouldn't pull any tricks like pigtailing them together in the breaker box.
If ignorance is bliss why aren't more people
happy?
Local areas don't modify sections of the code. They interprite it as they see fit.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
>>Local areas don't modify sections of the code. They interpret it as they see fit.They can: local codes are "The code," as adopted by the relevant jurisdiction based on the model codes, but not dictated by them.And then there are also locally varying interpretations and enforcement.
View Image
Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
"And then there are also locally varying interpretations and enforcement."
That's what I'm talking about right there. Thanks.
Ugha Chaka! Ugha Chaka! Ugha, Ugha, Ugha, Chaka!
No, the adopt a code and will except certain parts and add there own detials.For example from a near by city."4. National Electrical Code NFPA 70, 2002 Edition, except that Section 210-12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection shall be deleted in its entirety and is not adopted."" 8. International Residential Code 2003 (for One- and Two-Family Dwellings) with a publication date of January 2003, except for the following modifications to the International Residential Code 2003:
... c. Section R311.5.3 Stair Treads and Risers (page 51) shall be amended to read as follows: Stair Treads and Risers. The maximum riser height shall be eight (8) inches maximum (203 mm) and the minimum tread depth shall be nine (9) inches (229 mm). The riser height shall be measured vertically between leading edges of the adjacent treads. The tread depth shall be measured horizontally between the vertical planes of the foremost projection of adjacent treads and at a right angle to the tread's leading edge. The walking surface of treads and landings of stairway shall be sloped no steeper than one (1) unit vertical in forty-eight (48) units horizontal (two percent (2%) slope). The greatest riser height within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than three-eighths (3/8) inch (9.5 mm). The greatest tread depth within any flight of stairs shall not exceed the smallest by more than three-eighths (3/8) inch (9.6mm)...."Here is another nearby city;" ARTICLE III. ELECTRICAL CODESec. 7-300. National Electrical Code adopted.
The 2002 edition of the National Electrical Code as published by the National Fire Protection Association (NFPA No. 70-2002) is hereby adopted and incorporated in this chapter as fully as if set forth herein, excepting only such parts or portions thereof as are specifically added or amended.
(Ord. No. 5742, § 1, 5-6-04)Sec. 7-301. National Electrical Code deleted; Section 210-12. Arc-fault circuit interrupter protection.
Section 210-12 is hereby deleted.
(Ord. No. 5742, § 1, 5-6-04)Sec. 7-302. National Electrical Code amended; Section 230-70(a). Location.
Section 230-70(a) is hereby amended to read as follows: The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors. When service entrance conductors are more than 10 feet in length from the point of entry to the service panel, a separate means of disconnect must be installed at the service cable entrance to the building or structure.
(Ord. No. 5742, § 1, 5-6-04)"And they also adopted the 2003 IRC (one and two family homes) and edit the sh*t out of it." ARTICLE IX. RESIDENTIAL CODESec. 7-900. International Residential Code adopted.
The 2003 edition of the International Residential Code, including appendices E, H, and J, and its most current errata as published by the International Code Council is hereby adopted and incorporated in this chapter as fully as if set forth herein, excepting only such parts or portions thereof as are specifically added or amended.
(Ord. No. 5742, § 1, 5-6-04)
"Here are part of the electrical." Sec. 7-961. International Residential Code deleted; Section E3801.4.2 Island counter spaces.
Section E3801.4.2 is hereby deleted.
(Ord. No. 5742, § 1, 5-6-04)Sec. 7-962. International Residential Code deleted; Section E3801.4.3. Peninsular counter space.
Section E3801.4.3 is hereby deleted.
(Ord. No. 5742, § 1, 5-6-04)Sec. 7-963. International Residential Code amended; Section E3802.6 Kitchen receptacles.
Section E3802.6 is hereby amended to read as follows: All 125-volt, single-phase, 15 and 20-ampere receptacles that serve countertop surfaces, and are located within 6 feet of the outside edge of a sink shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel. Receptacle outlets shall not be installed in a face-up position in the work surfaces or counter-tops.
(Ord. No. 5742, § 1, 5-6-04)Sec. 7-964. International Residential Code deleted; Section E3802.11 Bedroom outlets.
Section E3802.11 is hereby deleted.
(Ord. No. 5742, § 1, 5-6-04)
"
That's right where someone (your wife?) in the future might start digging a hole to plant a shrub. Coming here to 'confess' that you did something the easy way and left a concealed hazard is lame.
Gotta say I'm shocked at the tacit approval (or at least the lack of disapproval) from this audience.
Do you remember the outpouring of derision for buried j-boxes (Firebird hasn't been heard from since!). I sometimes think people are too quick to heap scorn and express righteous indignation on others. But, we're on a slippery slope when we begin to justify shortcuts by saying or implying that code violations that are only a little bit dangerous are acceptable. I apologize if I sound preachy, but this isn't an issue of quality, durability, or fitness for use. It's a safety issue, IMO, and shortcuts are unacceptable.
Dude,
If we didn't give you a tough time, it'd mean we didn't care.
A lot like the hardass DI who tells the recruits in basic, "you maggots may hate me now, but you'll thank me later".
That's a fair amount of energy available in that cable, 240V at 30amps = 7.2kW. And there's a lot more fault current (and therefore energy) available. Thank us later, when you've done the job right, and can feel good that it's done right.
Cliff
Your description of the run is a bit hazy - did you run it from under the window where the little girl is, along and around the foundation and around the service entry over to the left in the pic? (I..e, where the straw is?
I think what you did is potentially dangerous, especially for the next guy down the road, and especially leaving the biohazard tape there - you've not only have a hidden danger, but left inaccurate information about it.
FWIW, as a home inspector, when I run across such amateurish workmanship (not that I'd be likely to find this, depending on what's happening inside) I tell my clients that amateurish workmanship raises concerns as to what other sorts of hidden problems might be lurking in the house.
Needless to say, that does not make potential home buyers feel all warm and comfy.
So, Glass City wise (I'm south) you're 0 for 3!