Help! need masonry/contract advice…
I wanted a pad for a future shop constructed on my property; 20Õwide, 24Õ deep, and the site falls almost 4Õ from the top right corner to the back left, and 2Õ right-to-left across the front 20Õ face. At this point this wall would continue another 20Õ ,with step-downs, to allow a gentle ramp into the building. I specified 12Ó x 16Ó block,as I may include a second-story loft apartment over the shop, eventually. My other requests were: 4Ó center floor drain, stubbed to below grade at the back of the building, and water & electric conduit laid in to pop up inside the wall at the back, and stubbed off in the front (direction these services will come from later). I opted not to get a permit, as this will be a glorified parking area for an indeterminate time, I am out in the county, zoned Ag, and didnÕt see any reason to give the tax-hungry public officials an excuse for yet another increase in my property taxes. I got two written bids, one verbal (and this one entirely in single-syllable words, God bless him). The other two were equal, and I chose the one I thought seemed more knowledgeable. Went and visited the job he currently doing – a finished slab pour under an existing residential deck, wrap around to the driveway,steps, etc; everything looked good. In addition to the work I described he would do for me, he was to also do an equivalent amount of work on an adjacent pole barn (some block walls, pour the aisleways, etc) I wonÕt bother with the details for that now.
I am the construction business (12 years), albeit a very small and weird niche; I build equestrian Eventing (name of a sport) cross-country courses, and service the competitions. I bring home about 300 a day and can never catch up with the work IÕm offered, but my clients average 200+ miles from home. I could do this work myself, but very slowly, as IÕve never laid enough block to become proficient, and meanwhile, more money I could be making doing what it is IÕm best at is floating away. Ã’Better to hire in a pro Ã’ and knock it out quickly, I thought. $5000 for the project I described, $4000 for the pole barn work – $3500 down, $3k when the block is done, $3k upon completion. I signed the contract which vaguely covered what we described, and they started. The footer excavation looked normal, but I had to be out of town the day they poured. 1Ó out of level in spots, and the step-downs were mostly 6Ó (one was 5Ó, and one 8Ó. Ã’Holy cow! Guys, uh..Ó Ã’Oh, weÕre going to have to fix thatÓ, he sheepishly explained. Ã’Sorry, my guys let me down.Ó Dumbass that I am, I bought it. Rained out for half a week, and they showed up yesterday morning as I was leaving to go out of town for a day. I got a call at 5 pm from my wife, who said the dude was asking for his next draw. I knew they couldnÕt have fixed the footer and gotten all the block up, so I told her IÕd meet them first thing in the morning, 300 miles away, at my house. You canÕt imagine the horrors I saw in my headlights at 2am when I pulled in at my place. The shop pad was about 80% finished, starter courses in the barn, not level or plumb or straight, very obvious to the eye. Upon closer inspection: zero pattern to how they were laid; one 24Õ run started 1/4 lap, was half-lap about midway, and staight-stacked at the end! Frozen mortar, mortar joints of all shapes and sizes, some half-empty, a few block were dry and tight together – and easily more than half of them tipped in one direction or another! Saw 6 block in a row laid dry to the footer. None of the service conduits in place or allowed for. Finally got to sleep about 5am – up at 9am, and there they were, contract dude, his apparent cohort, and two apparent lackeys, starting to replicate their crooked walls in the barn. Ã’We need to talkÓ I quietly said, and walked the guy over to the shop site. Ã’Do you see anything wrong with this?Ó I asked. Ã’No.Ó Ã’Is it plumb, level, or straight?Ó Ã’Well – within reason, I mean, we can tuck-point and stucco…Ó And he never would concede that anything was wrong, but that he would Ã’fix this or that, and Ã’the slab will lock it all togetherÓ. Apparent cohort kept chiming in: Ã’well, it is sloppy workÓ; the the older lackey: Ã’I been slinginÕ block for 25 yearsÓ. I kept bringing him back to the horrible reality of his work – and he kept excusing and explaining. Finally, I bottom-lined it: Ã’this has to be re-laid.Ó After a few minutes of mumbling and talking to his guys, they started pulling up block, and scraping off the mortar. No mention of the money he was asking for yesterday, no mention of Ã’change orderÓ. It started raining about the time they finished deconstruction. They said they be back when it clears off Thursday to start over: Ã’We want you to be happyÓ, and as I watched, left their 743 bobcat, big electric jackhammer, and other tools in the barn. I was expecting they might just load up and disappear with my $3500) What should I do now? (besides get some sleep)
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Gabe
dear dumb... i feel your pain... and it's easier to give than receive.. but you and i both know it ain't gonna get any better..this guy is incompetent.. sounds like he's a flat slab finisher .. with no knowledge of block...
i'm thinking you should cut your losses and hire the first guy with the single syllables..
don't wanna do that ?.. better resign yourself to sitting right there and checking each course
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Sorry, but there was indeed a lot of superfluous information in that first post, dumas.
What ARE those symbols you are using? It made work out of deciphering the pertinent info but my instinct on the first reading, first ¶ was that you were going to end up wishing that you had hired the one sylable man. He's direct and to the point. He may not be a man of letters, so to speak, but he may also only know one skill and know it well!
The guy you got is off-gassing and you will regret it for the rest of your life if you let him finish. At three hundred a day of your own income, you'll only regret firing him for about twelve days.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Should have taken pictures. Besides feeding my curiosity, it would have been valuable in case you do fire him. (please do , by the way). I am surprised he didn't say, "Ohhh, you want it done right! Well that'l be extra!" Be honest with yourself. If he was that uncaring about the ABC's of bricklaying, how would he be with the really important stuff, like nuts on bolts, or using a 6d nail when he needs a 12d. Buy him a 6-pack of Old Milwaukee lite and send him on his way.
piffin,
I think you must be refering to the symbols I used to indicate feet ( ' apostrophe) and inches ( " quotation mark). This is standard short-hand in the tiny niche-market I work in. (read: non real-world construction). As for the single-syllable guy - this was a very poor choice of metaphor. I live in Tennessee, where the government places a negative value on primary education. I am fully aware that a person's level of literacy may have no correlation to their trade skills. I intended to convey that S-S guy was apparently illiterate regarding concrete and masonry, or seemed so. In retrospect, I am obviously a dumbass regarding the selection of contractors.
Cuttawooda - I did take pictures, and feel I can fire this guy with impunity. I intent to try and use him as labor to continue the project, up to the point that the block work is finished. (the $3500 I've already paid) Having said that "I could do this myself, but very slowly" (and that I am a dumbass), "we" are now going to rip out the footer and start over. I don't know any " right" way to fix a footer with (2) 6 inch step-downs in a 24 foot run. Am I wrong? I fully expect that they may balk and walk - but hope to use their bobcat, jackhammer and labor to do this if at all possible.
This was to be my Christmas present to myself - which strongly affirms the notion: "it is better to give than receive."
You could fix a footer by pouring a shim over it without ripping out unless that elevates things too much.
WE all use " for inches and ' for feet but there were some funny looking things surronding them - ,aybe a flaw in the font between you and prospero host software, who knows? Not meant as a criticism of you..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
I'm sure you wouldn't give one of your equestrian-fancier customers a picture of your living room as a reference. The same goes for the reference you took from this "contractor." Just because he can finish concrete on a flat lot doesn't mean he can lay block, use a level, or (more importantly) even think in three dimensions. I've seen many a sub and even a few landscape architects who were in completely over their head when there were changes in level involved. And this crap about "I've been slingin block for 25 years"--well, if he had to TELL you that, there's a problem, isn't there? The job he did speaks for itself, and for his story.
I'd have to agree with Piffin in his earlier post. If you let these dudes "finish" the job, you'll be sorry. They've already done work that, by your description, is completely unacceptable. The ring-leader has tried to take advantage of your wife (and you) while you were gone. It would be laughable if we saw it in a movie, but it's happening to you in real life. In order to get them to do the job by any acceptable standards, you'll have to be there to supervise them continually. This means you'll be doing their job for them, but paying them to do it, and all the while you'll be forgoing the money you'd normally be making. Then there's your own work schedule. (I know my customers wouldn't be real pleased if I had to tell 'em I was leaving my work unfinished, but I'd be back in 2-3 weeks, after I finished a job at my own house.) And all so you can try to squeeze a little more of that $3500 you gave them. By the time the weather clears this time, they'll probably have the rest of that smoked and drunk up, and won't be able to order material anyway. So, if you keep 'em, you'll be out your $3500, PLUS your own lost wages, PLUS all the agita you'll be havin' from listening to the jackasses while they grumble.
Invite this feller over to your house tomorrow, and when he gets there, fire his #### and supervise him while he takes his equipment, to make sure he doesn't get any of yours. Get back in touch with both those other guys. One of the best bricklayers I've ever known had a mouth full of rotten teeth, spoke with a backwoods Kentucky accent, and couldn't string together a sentence of more than five words, and one of 'em was usually sh-eee-yutt. Ask each of these guys for some job references for work that includes ALL the stuff you want 'em to do. Check the references, and if you're a stranger in the area, make sure they're not just relatives and friends of the man. Hire the one you have the best feeling about. Buy yourself a tool for Christmas. You can give the work to yourself as an Easter present. And you won't still be calling yourself a dumbass on Christmas day.
Best of luck.
Mac
I know it sounds like cruel and unusual punishment but forget the $3500 and find someone else. When you say contract advice, 1) do you have a written contract? 2)does it not have a clause concerning the quality of work?
(by the way, -moderator asked me to change my name to something less lewd) Yes, I have a contract, with nothing in print about quality. It's a generic Proposal form with vague description of the job - $3500 down, $3000 mid, $3000 end. He verbally stated he wanted the second check when the block was finished.. I know I talk too much, so I'll try to make this short. They showed up this morning with new mason in tow. He looked at the freaky footer and said he could "bed it up with stiff mortar " and make it work. "Would it pass code?" I asked. "Yep" ( is he right about this? does it make any difference that I'm going to pour the blocks full of concrete?) So I let him go at it. I've got $3500 in freaky footers, and a pile a blocks, I ain't writting NO more checks; I figure I've got nothing to lose. At 7 pm tonight they quit. The 20' x 24' shop footprint is up, and very fairly plumb and straight, very level (I loaned him my laser), but 4" out of square measured on diagonal. There's a 16' L x about 2' H retaining wall extension of one of the 24' walls not yet done. They stopped on this and moved to the barn for some reason they couldn't explain to me. The barn blockwork (a 12' wide x 16' long with 8' x 6' bump-out : a squared P shape -averages about 2' H ) is up and plumb, but up to 1" out of level all over, and probably not very square. I was too tired of them to check . The new mason guy at least knew how to put block togather, and he didn't get a lick of help from the 4 others except mixed mud and handed block. I got the distinct feeling they were rushing him along, thinking they were going to get a check tonight if they could get the block up, which makes them just as foolish as I was to ever write the first one. They pumped me for about 20 minutes for a check, "so the job could keep going forward". I told the guy as nicely as I could that I didn't trust him and we were in opposite universes about what's Right and Wrong, and needed to talk about that tomorrow. There's more rain coming tonight through Saturday -and he didn't have the trailer for his Bobcat with him - so I didn't see any point in being totally forthright by telling him "no more checks - please leave now, thank you." I know he doesn't have $3500 in this yet, even counting the $300 he said he paid new mason, the first round of mortar he wasted, and all the wasted labor of he and his lackeys, so I don't feel like I'll be stiffing him by cutting off the tap. Please let me know if you think I am wrong.
My only question is: how can he come after me for any more money? I'm willing to shell out some for a lawyer, just on principal, if I have to. (but would rather not feed those scum either : please take no offense if you are THE ethical lawyer). Goodnight fellows! I'm sorry I talk so darn much. Wake me up with some good advise to get me out of this jam, and I'll promise I'll go back to lurking for a looong time. No more adventures for me, please.
What is up with you?
" ÒBetter to hire in a pro Ò and knock it out quickly, I thought. $5000 for the project I described, $4000 for the pole barn work - $3500 down, $3k when the block is done, $3k upon completion. I signed the contract which vaguely covered what we described,"
If I understand your last post correctly, you are now planning to reneg on your word as given by your signature on the contract. You already made two mistakes. One was in hiring them and putting the deposit down. two was in not running them into the next county while you had reason.
Now that they are, on the surface at least, making a best faith effort to do the work to your standard and you have let them on the property to do so, the courts will see you as the contract breaker if you refuse to pay them what is stipulated, "...$3k when the block is done..."
If that's what you are considering, (it's late so maybe I misunderstood) then you deserve exactly what you get and the right to that name..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
as piffen said.... you've already agreed by your actions that the work can commence..
seems like everything is ok except for out of sq..why is it out of sq? did you have batter boards for them to lay to ?
if you know it is out of sq. you could have known that when they started in the morning...
i think you'd either better settle up with them now... and i do mean settle... which means negotiate for work to date...
or let them finish and pay them in fullMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
If I understand you and Piffin correctly - my most recent DA major mistake was to let them have a second shot at building the walls (my greedy attempt to salvage some of the $3500?). Also, If I understand you correctly, 4" out of square , and even worse problems with the block in the barn, constitutes accecptable and completed work (nevermind the 16' retaining wall - is that just "splitting hairs" on my part? ) I am genuinely asking this, no sarcasm. My 2 close friends who are building contractors are giving me contrary feed-back- "I'm still screwed, because this work is still unaccecptable, and I am "out" more than they are at this point". Like I said in my last post, I thought I had "nothing to lose" by letting them try to complete that first $3500 worth of work.
Going from here, I must say that paying them to perform any more work (or even allowing them to do it for FREE) is out of the question. I swear I am not exagerating in the least when I say that absolutely nothing they have done to this point is what I asked for, or what they said they would do. (unless you contend that the block that is up is "Accecptable") Mike, I watched them for most of this, and they seemed to be doing it right, insofar as I am qualified to ascertain: new mason checked his diagonals (with one of the original four on the other end of the tape) to set his speed-lines, made adjustments, "it's RIGHT ON now ", and away they went. They were calling these diagonal numbers audiably most of the time, and if nobody was lying, it should have been RIGHT ON, right?(assuming they know how to read a tape) Are you saying that my presence for most of this meant I was obligated to stop them and make my own measurements all along? I did not set up any batter-boards -they never asked me to, and did their own. I paid them for a turn-key job. It was only at the end, when they had a level course up all the way around, that I stepped in, pulled my own tape, and discovered the discrepency. New mason seemed to be as surprised as I was. The block work in the barn isn't even the right dimentions per the drawing with numbers on every line I gave him! A 10' wall became 8' ! Now, when new mason measured and figured out thiat this was the only way he could do it on these footers, I okayed the change from 10' to 8', because this involves a little bump-out for a compressor bay and storage, and I can still make it work. I only cite this as example of "nothing as originally agreed". In hindsite, I could have carefully measured all of the footers at that stage, and found this then , but did not realize that when you sign a contract for a turn-key job, you are oblidged to check their work all the way through the process. The other site was my primary concern -perhaps I got too distracted by the problems with it.
So, staying with your original assertions, and my profound desire to erase them from my life, how much money do I owe them now? This is the first time in my life I have had this kind of dispute , other than getting ripped off for a $1000 transmission rebuild that reblew right away. In thirteen years as a sole-proprietor contractor, I've never had one client ever express any dissatisfaction with work performed or money paid (not that I haven't done a few re-do's - but always always on my own dime, and gladly) and I intend to keep it that way. I work on hand-shake deals, labor only, they pay or reimburse for materials. I admit I know very little about how you guys do contract business, and my understanding of how contracts work is almost limited to the basic precept that they are binding to both parties to provide what is stipulated. My good name is on that contract, and I want to do the right thing, I swear to God. I have cash on hand to give them the full amount, if that is what I am morally and/or legally obligated to do. Please advise, and be as blunt as you need to be. I feel very stupid, but do not want to futher compound this by feeling guilty. I also have a digital camera and can post pictures of whatever you need to see to calculate my liability, but need direction as to how to do that - I don't see anything on this REPLY screen I'm in that allows attachments. I also have a 35mm pics, and a scanner, if you're curious to see the original horrible wall. (didn't have the digital at home that day).
could be I'm a little hasty basing judgement on what you appeared to be saying in your turnaround. I'm thinking right now that your biggest problem is going around with a big sign on your torso that says, "I'm a dumb ####, please dope slap me" I hate to think what your father's nickname for you was or what kind of relationship you had with him to have grown up with this so present in the front of your mind.
I'm not saying this to criticize but to make you aware that when people see this right up front, they will take advantage of you when they are bent that way.
Try to learn to deal with this as a life foundation and build a little confidence and learn a little wisdom. In the long run, that's more important than building a barn or whatever this was.
You post jpgs, btmps or gif files as attachments. Scroll to the bottom of the screen you are typing your reply in to see the attach files button and then follow the instructions very precisely, waiting when you need to wait.
I'm trying a new screenshot program to show you this...
Now don't get confused. The buttons in this jpg aren't the ones that worek, just pictures of buttons.
;).
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
piffin
I can see how you might rush to that conclusion, given my moniker, and willingness to solicit important advise from unknown e-persons, who might be trans-sexual al Queda porn-chat staffers with too much time on their hands, in as far as I know. I have sufficient self-esteem to label myself DA, because of my recent foibles in being conned by these sharks, and not care what conclusions or labels you out there draw from that. I'm proud of my life's work thus far, as is my father, and everyone I've ever worked for (in as far as they've ever told me.) I've never had a big business dispute before, other than that transmission job mentioned. I'm highly respected and sought after in my field - I'll give you my invoices from 10 years back and pay for the phone calls if you'd like to check . It may be chump change compared to what most of you guys do, but I have clients who are flying me to both coasts, all expenses paid including nice room & board, + $35 an hour. I'm my own boss, work where and when I want, and it's paying my taxes, for the farm, and we eat good. I am responsibe for directing & supervising the subs - quite often on more complex and expensive projects than this (stone masonry ,excavation, plumbing,etc) on many jobs and have never run into anything like this. The contracts in these deals are always with the client, as I'm not looking to mark anything up, and don't want the paperwork and tax hassles. I thought somebody out there might have helpful advise as to how this can resolve peacefully.
I'm going to try to attach some pictures
DA... i never said 4" out of square was acceptable.. I asked you how it got 4" out of square to begin with.. i see from your pics that you have batter boards.. so ?
i always run the corner pins for my form guys... they get the bottoms square.. it's up to them to keep em square...
i just didn't see how you let them do the whole day's work and it's still out 4"
maybe i should go back and read something again ?..
never mind .. i reread your post..
yeah.. the 2d mistake was letting them back on again... since the REAL mason.. acknowledged the 4" out of square.. they ALL know it's no good...
think it over tonite .. or before your next meeting.. you gonna give em one more shot ? or send them on their way.. do you have any idea what they could do to demo some of the work and STILL make it right ?
sounds like the MASON knows his stuff.. also sounds like the pressure of trying to make it right .. they just blew it on the 2d try..
maybe 3d time's a charm .. but at this point ( after the 2d day ) you are both riding the same horse in deep water.. each of you have an investment in the correct outcome of this block foundation...
you have to be the judge..
if i thought i could get a good job out of the new mason, i'd probably meet them the next morning and lay it out ... fix the problem... build it to the NEEDED dimensions, plumb , level, & square.. and they get all the money you agreed to...
or stop the job and kiss your deposit good by...cause it won't be worth pursuing
but hey, whadda i no ?
i
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Edited 12/14/2002 5:42:42 PM ET by Mike Smith
Edited 12/14/2002 5:45:05 PM ET by Mike Smith
This will probably be my last responce.
There are people here - very good ones, though rough aroud the edges - who can give advice but step back for a sec and look at what you have projected so far;
After these yahoos took you for a ride and dropped you in the mud, you got back in the car again after being advised not to. It was our collective judgement that if you continued to deal with them, you would regret it. I know you had an interest in getting something for your money, but you also expressed interest in using their equipment to your own good - that must have some value.
Then you come again, complaining that you got another bumpy ride and suggesting that you were not going to pay them at all. While saying that you are more than willing to pay them fair value, you are looking for a way out of a contract after reissuing it by letting them continue.
When you do so, you call yourself a dumb #### again! Maybe that's just self-deprecating humour, but it's hard to see the expression on your face from here.
If I heard your description right, One man laid all those block in one day, straightenning and fixing what was already a mess, while three other guys did almost nothing? I count somewhere's over three hundred block in those photos. Not the neatest job I've ever seen, but pretty astonding for only one man on work where I might expect only a hundred block a day. That makes me wonder what the other side of the story is...
So pardon me if I don't give any more advice here until I sort it all out....
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
D.A.
As a fourth generation bricklayer turned general contractor I'm going to weigh in here. First those footings are unacceptable but as another poster said could be dealt with by big mortar joints and cutting block. There is no excuse for the garage being 4" out of square and that is unacceptable for a turn-key job. The out of level question is borderline, not good but has room for argument. Sounds to me like the mason tried but didn't quite get there, probably due to the pressure to get it done. All that being said you should have fired them after the first fiasco, it was obvious that they didn't know what they were doing. But you didn't so where to go from here. I would make them finish the little bit that they haven't gotten done yet on the block and make sure it is done right. I would then expect a credit for the substandard work but you will need to negotiate how much. Keep in mind that the guy probably structured his bid so as to keep enough cash flowing to complete the job with most of his profit at the end. So if you fire him now, not allowing him to complete the flat work then he is money ahead. There is no way that he has 6500 bucks wrapped up in the job right now with just the footings and block in. I doubt that he has more than 2 grand in material right now but was figuring to use the second draw of 3,000 dollars to buy the fill for the floor and purchase the concrete. Because of that you either have to negotiate (and the ball is in his court legally) or you need to let him finish the job. You did mention in your first post that you were impressed with his flatwork so that might not be a bad idea, it is the one thing you have seen that he is competent at. Even if you do let him finish I would still try to get some credit for the substandard block work (maybe a thousand bucks or so ) Others have called you stupid which may be true, personally I think you are naive. I do think you are honest and are just in a quandary regarding what to do. My advice would be to let him finish it (the flatwork) and negotiate the final draw down somewhat to account for the sloppy work. In closing there are a lot of guys out there who are good at doing one thing but are worthless at others and he is probably one of those guys. Good luck.
Mark
Just for the record, prof, I didn't CALL him stupid. I pointed out what his own self demeaning leads to on site.
You've got some good advice there..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piff,
I wasn't referring to you calling him stupid. He does call himself dumb###s and someone else, might have been Mike, (I'd have to back and reread all the previous posts), did call him a dumb###s which in my book means the same thing as stupid. Anyhow I feel for the guy, but I agree he wasn't too smart in the way he handled the situation and I'm trying to give him a way out. Have a good one Piff.
Mark
mark.. just because i might have called u a DA in a previous life , doesn't mean i called D_____ A____ a D_____ A___...
and as a matter of fact, i didn't... hah, hah, hahMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I didn't say you did for sure, said I would have to go back and reread to verify that. Thanks for saving me the trouble. Later. Ps. I believe you didn't call him a dumb--- in your previous post but if you go back and read your last one I think you just did!
Mark
Edited 12/15/2002 11:03:34 PM ET by the professor
That's right, what he needs to do is compromise to find himself a win-win conclusion..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Piff,
Hey Piff did you find us a sponser yet? I'll be willing to guest host for you when you have to be away. Maybe we could get algore to sub when Andy has to be away now that he isn't running for president. LOL Naw, on second thought maybe we better get Mike to sub for Andy cause algore doesn't know anything about building, although Clinton knows about, no I better not say it. Hint: the name of the show.
Mark
professor,
Thanks for your input. In response to Piffin's prior allegation, and Mark C.'s input - there are exactly (165) 12" block in the shop site - (38 more needed to finish, and this has 84' of footer). The barn has (96) 8" block on 51' of footer.
New Mason (also named Mark) installed every one of these block, starting at 8am, finished at 7pm, while the four other guys mixed mud and smoked cigs.Two of the guys did leave the site twice for about an hour each time, to go buy another bag of mortar mix. When I went over to Mark the mason, as he was about to leave, to ask for his phone #, he was throwing up. Very much surprised me, as he'd seemed in relatively good spirit and calm throughout this.
Using Mark C.'s money #'s , the barn work is $604 , the shop site is $1596.
(I used $7 ea. for the 12" block, but doubt that 12" ers are double price: are they?) So, that's $2200. Now, let's go back and double the cost of the footers, as there was significant rock-slab in the ground that they had to jackhammer out - they spent maybe 12 hours total digging the footers. 135' total x $5.25 = $710 , so we're up to $3000 now. I'm also not sure if Mike C.'s numbers include the excavation of the footers, so pitch in another $500, and we're magically at $3500, precisely what I have paid them to date.
Professor, I take your point that the job may now be in a relm they are more competant at. However, I reassert that "absolutely nothing they have done to this point is as specified and agreed" and every attempt on my part to point this out to them is met with argument or excuse. They tried to sneak $3000 from my wife last Monday, and on Tuesday morning straight-faced tried to sell me the original horrible wall. My question now is: how much do I owe these guys? I'm ready to call it even, and goodbye; they want $1500 more.
P.S. -I could care less if any of you call me stupid. I have certainly done some stupid things recently, and/ but I'm trying to learn from it, and reconcile any damage done to others (including these dudes I hired) or myself. Past is past, and there's work to do.
DA--
I tend to agree with the professor on this. I can't speak for the other posters, but one thing I was trying to do was explain how to get out of this mess you've gotten yourself into (not that all the blame is on you) cleanly. That would have probably been easier if you'd have just run their tookases off when they presented you the first shi++y job, and tried to pass it off as good work. You've made the decision to get back down into the mud with them and waller around some more, and the old maxim "first time, shame on you, second time, shame on me" definitely applies. This is just my opinion talkin' here, but since you knew for a fact that these guys couldn't be trusted to do a turn-key job, and weren't up to the job, and since you did stay home in order to see it through, the fact that you're out of square and out of level is entirely on you. You elected to pay yourself the $300 you'd have made in an ordinary day to stay home and supervise. Why didn't you supervise? If a man will lie to you the way these have already lied, they'll certainly lie about a tape measurement, just to show that you and that new mason aren't so dam smart after all.
I was amazed when you said they'd had to jackhammer out slab rock for the footings. The general wisdom here, at least in Texas, is that footers laying directly on rock is the best possible outcome--there's no way the concrete is going to be as solid as the original rock, and if it couldn't be pried up or just lifted, it was solid. But intelligence is obviously not these guys' strong suit. You haven't mentioned (that I could find, and I've been following this thread since you posted it) how you intended to infill these block footings to support your floor. I can understand your wanting to fill the blocks with mortar or concrete, but I'm surprised you didn't lace the footings with rebar and run it up through the blocks. I do so hope you're not planning to just fill the entire space with concrete. If so, you just think you've had a circus so far.
The local supplier I use for block tells me (I actually called him to check) that their 12" block is about 75% higher than their 8" stuff. Even a cheap block mason who charges a dollar a block for 8x8x16 block will charge double that for 8x12x16. If this man was willing to lay block full-bore for 11 hours (or 9 hours, or whatever) for $300, he must have been very hungry indeed. I'm not surprised he was throwing up. You're lucky he didn't dun you for a case of Preparation H. But with the additional price of the block, plus the new mason, there's a good possibility that they have enough into this job to justify their asking $1500 more to drag up. And since you insisted that he do that, you do owe it to him.
HOWEVER, you need to look at what you're doing here before you run this dweezle off. You've indicated that the quality of his flatwork was what sold you on him in the first place. And if you think you won't pay dearly if you try to bring someone else in to finish this fiasco, you're wrong, wrong, wrong. These guys may be willing to work on that out-of-level, out-of square mess and make it right before they pour concrete on it. Don't count on anyone else to be so willing. It appears to me that the bed you've made for yourself involves you continuing in your supervisor's position, and them finishing their work. Be nice to the block layer, and be sure the other guys help him, incompetent as they are. And don't forget where you put your level.
When you finish this, you can make a list of the things you've learned. (Oh boy!) I have a couple or three of those "thousand dollar learning experiences" under my belt, too. Good luck.
Mac
Mac,
Thank you for the advice. $5000 seems like a lot for this block work, but he says so, and you say so... Anyone else have an opinion? $1500 more does seem like a low price to pay to never have to see those guys on my land again, but if it is not earned or deserved, I will be directly subsidizing incompetance, lying and cheating. (just like paying taxes?) I'll let you know how it turns out. I'm waiting to hear what his next move is.
Mac,
Sorry - I got called away before I could finish that last post, so I sent what I had. The reason they need to break out some rock is that we're on a limestone rock that is very friable in the freeze-thaw zone (12" or less, usually) You have to bust that off to get to the good stuff. Something else you said worries me.
"
I can understand your wanting to fill the blocks with mortar or concrete, but I'm surprised you didn't lace the footings with rebar and run it up through the blocks.Ê I do so hope you're not planning to just fill the entire space with concrete."
Please tell me what I obviously don't know about pouring block full of concrete.
Thanks again.
da... i think grassbur & the professor just about summed it up...
and , not to worry..... i've done some DA things with subs in the past , too..but
i usually find it best to move on... and try not to burn any bridges...
but hey, whadda i no ?Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I've been an AKA a few times too. Not one of them offered to tear it out and do it right at no expense to me, most have no clue as to what done right might entail. Did have one once say "Oh, if I'd known you wanted it done right............" Basically I think he meant he wasn't capable of doing it right & it would be way more money anyway.
At least from the pics we know it'll hold water. Joe H
DA--
I understand now about jacking the rock out of the ditches for the footings. Please understand that all 30 years' worth of my experience is in Texas and SE New Mexico. Shallow rock (for the most part), no frostlines, no basements. The last time the ground froze deeper than the surface was for a week in 1983--8" down at the most. I've dealt with exactly four basements in my entire career.
Regarding filling the voids in the block with rebar and/or mortar or concrete:
My understanding is that you plan for these block footings to be above-ground on the downhill sides of your buildings, and that as much as 24" will be exposed in some places. I also understand that you won't have a basement or crawl space, but that the block walls will be used to encase some sort of underlayment for the floor, which you plan to be poured concrete. If I'm wrong on either of those items, disregard the rest of this post and go with everything the professor said. However if I'm right in my understanding, read on. Your block stemwalls will have to stand up to three different types of pressure. First, the backfill within them will produce considerable lateral pressure. Then the concrete foundation and the building will both add to the lateral pressure and produce vertical pressure on the stemwalls. The blocks themselves will no doubt be enough to stand up under the vertical pressure of the walls (and the roof on those walls), but that won't necessary be the case when you add a second story or apply brick or rock to the walls. I remember someone saying they might eventually want to use the outer 4" of those 12" block as a brick ledge, but I don't remember if it was you. In either case, you'll be much safer if you fill the voids of the block in with concrete (since they're finished with the mortar and the excess of that is no longer available to you). Using horizontal rebar in the footings and/or the block walls is also a good idea, considering that you have ground heaving to deal with, though it may be too late to do that. The concrete in the block voids will help with the expansive (lateral) pressure from the infill, the foundation, and the loading on the foundation, but inserting 1/2" rebar every 24" in the voids before you fill them will help distribute the loads and beef up the wall for you. In a better scenario, those rods would have been attached to the horizontal rods in the footings, but it's a little late for that. One way or another, and no matter whether you put the foundation within the block walls or on top of them, before you pour the concrete foundation(s), you'll definitely need to lay a rebar grid for the foundation and tie it in to the stemwall.
Yes, I agree that $5000 is a little steep for footings and stemwalls, even top quality. But you're paying for a heluvan education [;-)] and peace of mind, as well. Sorry as these forchers are, they won't be able to say you got to 'em. And you won't ever have to deal with them again. Just consider it an unexpected Christmas present.
Mac
Da
If you can get rid of these guys for 1500 bucks and you really don't want them around then do it. You may pay more for someone else to come in and finish the backfill and concrete but if you haven't been able to get them to follow directions so far then maybe that's the best option. In regard to the 12 inch vs. 8 inch, in my area 12 inch run 1.60 each for basement size quantitys. 8" are about 97 cents ea. Your guy probably paid more because he didn't have bigger quantitys. In regard to the idea of running rebar into the footings, my opinion based on 25 plus years of experience is that you don't need that in your situation. Just be sure when you backfill to backfill both sides of the wall at the same time to equalize the pressure on both sides. Filling the cores of the block is also unecessary as pressure on the wall is the same from both sides. We don't even fill every core on basements though we do install rods about every six feet but that is on a wall that will be backfilled on one side only. You may be better off forming for the concrete yourself if indeed you intend to form it. (we normally build our block 2 courses above finished floor height and pour the concrete up against the wall just like in a basement. We place rods horizontally into the cores of the block about 2 feet on center and let them protrude into the concrete about 4 feet or so. If you have a lot of fill you may want to install a rebar grid in the floor though this does not mean you don't have to compact the subgrade. That's about it. Regarding the 1500$ in question I do think you owe it to them since you didn't run them off the job and let them continue. Also as another poster said you took on the job of supervisor and thus bear some but not all of the responsibility for the out of square/level condition. Good luck whatever you decide.
Mark
Thanks Mark,
Have you "4 generation masons types" got a national website or something I could look into next time I'm hiring?
I think you might have misunderstood about the backfill - both sites are on slopes, so backfill is inside the walls only. Barn site does have one 8' x 30" wall with earth behind.
The shop site is about 4' deep at deepest, 2' average depth. The barn is about 2' deep at deepest, 1' average. My plan is to used 1" washed gravel to fill both, as it is relatively cheap way to fill voids when costed against dirt + compaction.
About 40 tons for the shop site (not incl. unbuilt retaining wall area) = $500 including haul. Barn will need about 17 ton (there more to fill than you see in the pics) = $220. I was planning on rebar grid for concrete shop floor, tying down into the poured full cores. Barn aisle floor was to be same, but they goofed on elevation of footers, so floor will need to pour inside of walls rather than over top. (and this on the low side only, the upper walls are retaining dirt behind them). Both sites have a few inches of dirt at most before limestone shelf underneath, and my understanding is that was stone is self-compacting in a box like this. Are there any flaws in this plan?
"My plan is to used 1" washed gravel to fill both, as it is relatively cheap way to fill voids when costed against dirt + compaction. "
So cheaper is better?.
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
Didn't say it's cheaper - it's not. "Relatively cheap" meant is only costs slightly more that hauling in dirt & compacting, minus that dirty hassle. I actually think it is superior fill in most cases, if you're close enough to the quarry to get it as CHEAP as I do.
It is definitely not a good fill for this use. Like mike said, it will settle and leave voids because it cannot be compacted. You asked for flaws to be pointed out. You'll never see an engineer or architect spec that detail and now you know why. Sorry if it sound like I'm picking on you..
Excellence is its own reward!
"The first rule is to keep an untroubled spirit.
The second is to look things in the face and know them for what they are."
--Marcus Aurelius
yes , i wouldn't count on the 1" stones self-compacting... every vibration for the next twenty years on top of that slab.. will settle the stones ever so slightly.. until your slab is totally unsupported...
that is a deep fillMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
D.A
You can use the gravel if you compact it in lifts of no more than 10 inches or so. However I would use something like bank run if you are that close to the quarry or a 3/4" minus type mixture as it fills voids better. You can rent a plate compactor at your local rental yard for about 50 bucks a day and you shouldn't need it for more than a day. As I said in my previous posts compaction is a must. Also if you are not going to have equal or close to equal amounts of fill on both sides of the wall then you will need to be careful with the compactor up against the wall. Don't omit the rebar dowels from the wall to the floor in the areas wher the floor will be placed in between the walls. Where it will be placed on top you can insert an "L" shaped bar into the core of the block with the other end in the floor concrete and fill both at the same time. If I understand you correctly you are planning on pouring most of the floor on top of the walls and if this is the case you can correct the out of level condition by placing your forms level and pouring to them. Good luck and let us know how it works out.
Mark
Other than the heads not being full, the block work for foundation(meaning backfilled on both sides) looks fine. Out of square...can't say for sure, can't see it. Same goes for level. Steps in footers.....last house I did had 14 of them. We stayed in 8" increments, so we could use the block we had, but 6" would mean we cut block or order 6's. Either way..no big deal.
Are you going to lay a slab over the block, then frame on the slab OR put anchor bolts/straps in the block and frame on them? Either way, 4" out of square isn't really a big deal. NO I would not do it myself, but I could frame it just fine. Out of level by 1" is even easier.
Why are you poring the cores solid?
Footers....$5.25/ft matl' included.....block 8" $3.50/ea. layed includes mat'l.
This is giving me a headache. I could have already finished the job by now....ugh
PS..you should have called yourself Dumbazz....that way youd have gotten away with it.
Be clear
Namaste
andy
One works on oneself, always. That's the greatest gift you can give to community because the more you extricate your mind from that which defines separateness, that defines community. The first thing is to become community. "Ram Dass"http://CLIFFORDRENOVATIONS.COM
Edited 12/14/2002 12:48:25 PM ET by Andy Clifford(Andybuildz)