I just purchased a cheap $99 table saw. Then I heard that underpowered table saws are dangerous because of “kickback”, that is, the saw blade shoots the board back at you unexpectedly sometimes.
First of all, is this true?
To all you pro’s out there… I would appreciate any safety tips. Including, by the way, maybe I should return the $99 TS I just bought? I was looking at the other thread, with all sorts of recommendations on Table Saw’s, but I have no idea on price… I need something real cheap to fit my budget, and I’m not a tradesman, so it will be used very little.
Thanks! Crackshot.
Replies
1. Respect the saw for what it is...a dangerous cutting machine.
2. Use the blade guard always...if it doesn't have one, return it and get a saw that has one.
3. Don't force feed the material...push at a rate that the saw can handle.
4. Know the limits of the saw...i.e. don't try to cut 4x4 lumber on it if it can't handle it.
5. Never reach over the blade while it's running.
6. Make sure the saw is on a stable surface.
Repeat the previous steps.
As far as kick back goes, try to stand to the side of the material. Whether you are a pro or newbie, there is always a danger. A friend's neighbor lost some fingers with a circular saw. The guy was a carpenter for over 30 years. It only took 1 second to change his life forever.
As far as kick back goes, try to stand to the side of the material. Whether you are a pro or newbie, there is always a danger. A friend's neighbor lost some fingers with a circular saw. The guy was a carpenter for over 30 years. It only took 1 second to change his life forever.
I try to stand directly behind the workpiece and push it through smoothly. I think I understand kickback and I would rather be in a position for best control than work as if there was always a significant risk.
Having said that, I've also used saws in many non-recommended ways that I wouldn't encourage others to do. For example, I have removed some "safety" features that, in my opinion, INCREASE the risk of injury. It's my body and it's my brain's job to protect it.
-Don
as for standing directly behind unless you are superman be real careful
had a piece come back nick my hip , take a chunk out of a cabinet, and stick in the shop door
PLEASE stand off to the side just a little
Daniel
That's exactly what I do too. If I'm cutting a big panel, I will stand directly behind it. If I'm cutting a narrow board or anything that could be "launched", I stand to the side. I do this also because I use a push stick and don't want to be leaning over the blade when pushing the wood thru.I should add that since I only use my tablesaw about a dozen times a year, I take safety to the extreme. Each time I use it, I try to treat it like it's my first time. It takes longer to do things but I'd rather complete the job instead of rushing to the E.R.
Edited 10/29/2005 12:30 pm ET by emaxxman
Wow. Thanks to all for your fast helpful responses about TS's and kickback.
I think I have a better understanding now of why kickback even happens - bad fences, binding, misalignment, thin strips, feeding to fast, lumber too big for the saw, etc.
Also, thanks for pointing out that some saws have an antikickback device. I think this has one, but I had no idea that's what it was. The reason I haven't read the safety manual yet is that I haven't even opened the box. I might return it, but then again I might decide to use it and just be super-slow feeding the stock and stand way off to the side with a real long push stick.
This might be a stupid question, but why don't we PULL instead of PUSH? My thought is, if I'm standing in "front" of the piece of lumber (the board is feeding slowly towards me), and if the saw kicks back, it will shoots the other way, away from me, correct? Is it just too difficult to rig something (stick?, twine, some sort of claw, etc) to pull instead of push?
In case it's relevant, the make/model of this thing is Delta TS200LS. I noticed somebody mentioned the Delta brand. I also was surprised at the low low price. Look what Home Depot has done to the overall pricing environment at all the retailers... I do purchase quality tools if I'm using them a lot. I love my Bosch hammer drill! Probably my favorite power tool of all....
Once again, thanks to all of you for your help!
I saw this post and felt I must reply. "Pull instead of push?" I found it interesting nobody picked up on this. If you pull stock through a blade, the blade will of course have the tendency to pull you into itself. Sure we're strong and can hold back a horse but when things go haywire, i.e. kickback, the blade pulls the meat into the teeth. That meat being the fingers you make a living with. Sure we cut with a partner on the job, one catching one receiving (prison jokes aside), but when the pusher lets go at the end of the stock he steps aside while the puller keeps his hands away from the edge of the table at least. The pusher steps aside so that if the puller gets too close he can just release the board and let it fly (sucks for that window). We use tablesaws constantly and have no reservations about shutting down a cut if the operator is "hotdogging it". Look at what you're going to do and if you have the faintest inkling about your fingers, find another way (a jig or a different tool). Some knuckleheads laugh at your feather boards and what not, but do they have all ten pinkies? I know my missus would be miffed if I came short a finger or two( I am Irish you see...)
Thanks everyone for the education on TS's and EZ Guides and rip guides, etc. As for me, if anyone's interested, I'm planning on returning my $99 TS today to the retailer for a refund, and getting a rip guide instead for my circ saw. I don't have that many cuts to do...
Footnote: Just to get pricing, I asked at some local retailers about paying them to do the cuts for me? They say: "We don't do rip cuts"
I've learned a lot... THANKS EVERYONE! Crackshot
Another thing that's important where kickback is concerned is the weight of the piece that's getting kicked back.
Heavy pieces don't get kicked all that far. The machine can't accelerate them to much of a velocity before clearing the bind, or stalling.
Extremely light pieces don't have enough mass to carry much energy, even if they're going as fast as the blade can throw them.
It's the in-between weight stuff that's the most dangerous. The energy of the flying wood is (m*v^2)/2. (mass times velocity squared, over two) The most dangerous piece is the heaviest one that can get accelerated to the full speed of the teeth. Probably something like a foot or two of 1x2 for a light duty cheap saw.
-- J.S.
and use a "push-hold down" stick instead of your fingers
I think kickback results from the wrong blade, binding material, or cockeyed fence a lot more than the cost of the saw. The motor isn't going to have a big role in that. Now a cheap saw, I'd expect a floppy fence, so pay attention to that. Don't use a negative hook blade on it unless its for a specific material, say melamine, and then crank the blade up so it's pulling down to the table rather than shooting the board at you.
I'd love to tell you to get a better saw, but if you're hardly going to use it, not much sense in spendin a lot of money on it unless the times you do use it you're going to need nice clean cuts.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
RW - I did a general post to "All". Thanks for your help.
For you, a specific question: What's a "negative hook" blade and how/why is it used.
THANKS!
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tooth angle relative to a radius line drawn on the blade
A positive hook tooth will have the tendency to pull the workpiece tighter to the table, a negative, to push it off the table. It's all relative of course to how thick a workpiece and how high the blade is. Negatives are very useful for some materials, but they can give you significant emotional experiences when used on a table saw with stock they werent designed for. "If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
a $99 TS is not going to rip 2x material.. it will bog down.. the arbor will wobble, the motor will burn out..
and for what you intend to use it for.. i wouldn't even buy a TS, i'd take it back and
buy a Bosch 8 1/4" skillsaw and then i'd buy an EZ-Guide.. your work will be more accurate, safer and you will have more capabilitiesMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Thanks - that is very useful for me as I had no idea that even existed. I will look into the EZ-guide that you mention. Really appreciate it!
Here's the link for the EZ Smart Guide mentioned by Mike Smith:http://www.eurekazone.org/With the EZ you provide your own circular saw -- a regular 7 1/4" will work fine for most materials, but you need a 8 1/4" to cut all the way through 2X material. Here is the Bosch link:http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175981&G=54930&I=55115If you are looking into this kind of stuff, you should also know about Festool, which has a similar, but much more expensive system:http://www.festoolusa.com/********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
MikeSmith - thanks again for suggesting the "8 1/2 inch Bosch Skillsaw" and EZ Guide - I have no idea what that is. I just looked on the Bosch web site and can't find it. In fact, I don't even know what category of saws it would be listed in. Please spell it out for me if possible. Thanks.
Here's where I was looking:
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-category.htm?H=175981
They list the following categories of saws: jigsaws, table saws, reciprocating saws, circular saws, miter saws, power handsaws, cutoff machines, rotary saws.
Or maybe I should look at a reatailers site? Who would you say has the best product information online for me to learn about power tools like this?
Thanks!
crack... here's the Bosch 8 1/4"... i recommend it because even with the EZ Guide shoe on it will still rip 2x material
http://www.boschtools.com/tools/tools-detail.htm?H=175981&G=54930&I=55115
and the EZ Guide..
http://www.eurekazone.com/products/ezsmartguide.html
i've had about 6 Table saws so far... right now our main one is a PorterCable
but I would definitely buy an EZ guide system before buying a TS.. we have 3 EZ Guides nowMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We must have been composing our respective posts at the same time. I thought you had moved on, so I filled in........To completely hijack this thread, I have still another question for you re: the EZ guide, actually two:1) Can I use the guide to rip 45 degree bevels? If so, do I need a separate splinter guide for the base, and another strip for the guide rail?2) If I remember correctly, you use a Bosch 8 1/4" CS; there are two other saws in this size class that I've found -- Makita and Milwaukee. Which of the three would you recommend to me?Thanks. ********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Hi Nikki.
You can cut any bevel with the EZ. Use the outer track on the smart base. What I recommend for just few bevel cuts...remove (slide out) the white antichip edge and keep both sides of the guide for your (99%) straight cuts. The splintering on the bevel cuts are much-much less (less uplifting)
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/trimming-the-EAC-1-antichip-edges
If you do bevel cuts every other day, trim one side of the guide rail for your bevel cuts and trim the other side for your straight cuts. Use a magic marker, so you don't cut the wrong edge.:)
Get two exra edges and have it all.:)
Use the antichip insert AC-2 even for your bevel cuts . It doesnt provide antichip protection on the bevel cuts. But keeps the dust from flying around and supports the saw. (more stable)
The best overall saw is the PC Mag 325. (electric brake and dust port) and you can have the best dust collection if you follow this steps.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/the-best-dust-collection-system
By the way. This dust shield if free to anyone who needs one. Just send me an email.
Another great saw is the new Hilti. What I like about the Hilti is the greater depth cut capacity than any other saw, using the regular 7-1/4" blades. You can cut thru a 2"x4". Plus you have a large list of other features and benefits.
http://eurekazone.com/gallery/the-right-saw
And to aswer your question. The 8-1/4" saw that i' like the most, is the Bosch.
Gives you 60 degree bevels and remote lever for your guard. (over the top)
I hope this helps.
YCF dino
Edited 10/30/2005 10:55 am ET by dinothecarpenter
Edited 10/30/2005 10:56 am ET by dinothecarpenter
<<"I hope this helps.">>It does; thanks.********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
It does; thanks.
Hmm!!!!
Dino,After your post, I dug around the Hilti site and see they have two 7 1/4" saws -- the 167 (which HD sells for $159) and the 267 (which HD apparently does not sell). Do you have a preference for one or the other?********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
Nikki.
The fancy one is loaded with features and is the best saw on the guide rail.
You can use it off the guide rail but not as good as the other one (sidewinder)that is made for general construction amd is more heavy duty.
By the way, the Hilti sidewinder is made in the USA.
The Hilti sidewinder can be used on the guide rail but doesn't provide a dust port for vacuum hose.
YCF Dino
Dino, what is the max cut depth when using the Mag 324 or 325 and a 7-1/4" blade? I just ordered an EZ Smart kit and will use a 324.
Hi G.
I knew that was you Friday. Next time order a case:)
With the saw on the track you lose 1/2"- 5/8".
To get more depth you can use the ez as an edge guide.
http://www.eurekazone.com/images/gallery/multiplecutlayouttable.html
View Image View Image
YCf Dino
Other posters gave you the direct link to the Bosch saw but I wanted to second the E-Z for what you are looking to do. The link you had was the right one , you just had to look at "circular saws". Skill saw is sort of like "kleenex, fridge", and other things that have been taken on as a standard name for something. Just so happens that Bosch now owns Skil.
You should be able to buy 2x2's at a real lumber yard. They are almost as expensive as 2x4's normally but unless you are doing it as a labor of love and your time is cheap they are not a bad bet.
I have three table saws, a Ridgid TS3612, cheap one from HD, and small Craftsman that was given to me. All will do what you were talking about. One thing I did not see anyone mention was a featherboard. I think it adds a degree of safety and helps the quality of cut. This is even more useful if you are not using the saw a lot. I got my boards at Harbor freight for about 5 bucks each and think they are as good as the ones that are about 20 in Lowes.
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36697-0VGA
http://order.harborfreight.com/EasyAsk/harborfreight/results.jsp
You can make your own for zero if you have time and want to learn your saw. I also second getting one of the books or checking it out from the library. Featherboards can be attached to the rip fence also.
I met a retired builder who was missing a few fingers and thumb. He was working near another crew and went over to borrow their saw for a few cuts, unfortunately it was the day he had just gotten bifocals.
Bob
got it RW - thanks for the education of saw blade teeth.
I'd also ask yourself what you need the saw for. Cheap power tools can be dangerous. I have a $200 Craftsman tablesaw. It's about as cheap as I would feel safe using.
If the saw is so cheap in price and quality that it's dangerous, you may be better off having a lumberyard make your cuts for you...or finding other solutions to whatever you're trying to do. I'm on a tight budget myself. However, I try to buy the intermediate level tools knowing that those are the ones that will work well and also be cost efficient.
I'm a firm believer in using the right tool for the job...and safety is a criteria.
I did a general post to "All". Thanks for your help.
A specific response to what you said: "...what I'll be using it for..." - In the immediate future, I will just be ripping 1x4x8 and 1x6x8 cedar boards, due to my need for non-standard widths other than 3.5 inches or 5.5 inch widths. Other than that, I was thinking of ripping 2x4's for the purpose of making "2x2's", sort of, to make soffits under floor joists [I'm doing a basement finish].
Once again, thanks for your time, and any other insights as to other ways to "skin the cat" are most welcome. I did think about paying somebody else to make cuts for me, but I'd rather control it myself. I could foresee many trips in my truck back and forth to the lumber yard, for me to keep trying to specify what I needed, then trying to figure out if I was off by a little bit, or were they?? With the price of lumber these days, I want all the control to rest with me if possible.
Thanks!
You're getting some excellent advice and now my two cents. I am an expert on table saw saftey and I've got the missing left index finger tip, and scarred middle and ring finger to prove it. (Dado blade, 24 years ago)
Respect you tools, do not be intimidated. As long as your fence is parallell with your sawblade and your workpiece does not drift from your fence or saw top, you will never experience kickback, no matter the price of the saw. Put on your saftey glasses and hearing protection and stand comfortably and confidently behind the blade/work.
As you cut, pay most attention to the fence. On work wide enough to not require a push stick, rest your hand on the fence as you push the workpiece through, and you'll know where your fingers are all the time.
Contrary to what you've been told, you can safely use the mitre gauge and the rip fence simultaneously, here's how:
Say you've got (10) six inch pieces to cross cut. Set the rip fence to 6 3/4" and clamp a scrap of 3/4" stock to the fence but short of the blade. Butt the piece to be cut to the 3/4" stock and hold fast to the mirte gauge. As the piece enters the blade, it won't be touching the 3/4" stock or the rip fence and will be unable to bind and kick back.
You can cut absolutely perfect circles on a table saw too, with absolute saftey, but that's another thread.
This may seem obvious, but don't even think about firing up your saw without a good pair of safety glasses on. No exceptions under any circumstances. I've been amazed at the so-called "pros" who don't follow this simplest of rules.
A good push stick is also a must--mine has a handle on the top and a flat bottom with a quarter-inch "heel" at the back that lets me feed the last bit of material (or short pieces) through without getting my hands anywhere near that blade.
Lots of guys have lost fingers, thumbs, or worse from using their hands to feed stuff through a table saw. It happens in a flash.
Be patient when using the saw--go slow and steady when feeding and let the blade RPMs stay fairly high.
The main thing is just be mindful at all times when working with a tool like this. If you're tired, if you've had a couple beers, if you fought with your wife and are stewing over it in your head, don't use the tool. Safety comes down to being fully focussed on that machine.
"If you're tired, if you've had a couple beers, if you fought with your wife and are stewing over it in your head, don't use the tool. Safety comes down to being fully focussed on that machine."
Thank you Megunticook for posting that.
That safety message bears repeating from time to time, here and at work. Distraction from preoccupations not related to the task at hand are an insidious cause of close calls and accidents.http://www.costofwar.com/
I actually think a cheap TS is safer than a full blown cabinet saw when it comes to kickback.
If you're ripping 2X stock for instance, the wimpy motor on your cheap TS would just stall the blade if the cut starts to bind. I have a Powermatic 66 in my shop, and the kick back on that thing can be truly ferocious -- given its abundant power.
I would still utilize all the safety measures recommended by others, but I think you will have to be more concerned about nursing the stock through the saw than you will about kickback.
********************************************************
"It is what we learn after we think we know it all, that counts."
John Wooden 1910-
That's an interesting point regarding the power. There have been instances where I can see my blade slowing down because of the wood binding. Another thing to keep in mind (and another good reason for a blade guard) is that most blade guards have anti-kickback latches. Mine is two sharp point pieces of metal on the blade guard that dig into the material if it's moved backwards, i.e. towards you. They work extremely well. I've tried to pull the pieces back out (with the saw off of course) and couldn't because of the antikickback feature.
Welcome to the forum.
If you've not used a table saw before, you might want to purchase a good how-to book. You'll be introduced to the use of push sticks, fence extensions, featherboards, outfeed tables, etc.
As to the materials - which are as important as the saw itself - there are lots of things to watch out for, including how the wood behaves after it exits the blade. Bowed or crooked or twisted wood is particularly susceptible to binding and kickback.
Edit: I see you're making enquiries in another thread about zero-clearance throat inserts. Good thing to have esp. when cutting thin strips.
http://www.costofwar.com/
Edited 10/28/2005 9:55 pm ET by Pierre1
$99 for a table saw ? Agood circle saw cost more than that . What you got is a cheap circle saw in a box turned upside down. My dad bought two of them things in a couple of years time . they don't last . His last one is so bad that the blade moves side to side about 1/8 inch . My advice take it back , then look in the want ads or trader paper for a good brand name table saw /cabinet saw for a good price . Autions a re a good place also. I got a Delta unisaw for $350 at an auction .
The material kicks back because of an out of line fence. Cheap saw = cheap fences = material kickback. Badda bing!
Kickback comes from the blade grabbing the wood and forcing it back. A mis-aligned fence can do it - of you have a cheap saw (=cheap fence) you need to check it for square each time.
Also, you should push the stock as straightly as possbile, which some from a point close to directly behind the blade. Use a push stick!
Finally, dont try to cut thin strips between the fence and the blade.
Two of my favorite "rules" are:
1. Use the rip fence OR the miter gauge, never both.
2. Assuming your $99 saw is Tuned-Up and alignind and stuff - as you cut using the rip fence, you want to be watching where the piece touches the fence (and feed the piece to keep that gap closed) and be "aware" of where the blade is. Usually a kick will come from letting the piece wander off the rip fence, while folks are mesmerized by the spinning sharp thing.
Obviously when I say "aware" of the blade - means keep your fingers away.
also - my favorite type of push stick is a 5"-8" 2x4 that I band saw a notch out of the long way to leave a 1" long by half inch tall foot. They're simple and cheap, and for thin stuff, I actually PREFER to have the saw cut the workpiece, and then push right on through the pushstick. I never liked the look of these skinny 1/4" thick by 10" long things. It always looked like they're pushing a board through a power tool with chopsticks or something.
p.s. - i also second the notion that 99 bucks sounds a little on the cheap side, but then, I get the budget thing too - tough one.
http://justsawblades.com/systimatic/terminology.htm
more
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Maybe I'm just seeing the glass half empty here, but $99 for a saw and I think you're just looking for trouble.
Also, maybe I'm going off on a tangent here, but if you're not going to use it often but want to own something to do the job, might I suggest a portable circular saw with a home made saw guide until you can save up to get the EZ guide.
Nothing will make any tool safe if you don't use your head, but I really do think that EZ guide will help a newbee keep all your digits.
Sorry, I just read all the posts and see many others have mentioned the EZ guide. What do they say about great minds?
Edited 10/30/2005 2:05 pm ET by fingers
Crackshot,
Do you by any chance have a Woodcraft store near you? They offer many classes including a basic tablesaw safety course, friend of mine just took said it was well worth the money!
A few hours of hands on training can go a long way to getting you started safely, and the lesson last's a life time.
Bill
thanks Bill - never heard of them... I will look into it. Thanks for the tip.