Seeing how things are finaly returning to normal here and I was able to leave work early, I need to get my act together and get my kitchen done, ASAP!! Been about 4-5 weeks without one and it’s a PITA.
My question is flooring underlayment…screw and glue or nail and glue and most importantly, spacing. I plan to use 8″ spacing, but does that apply to just hitting the joists or map out the 4X8 sheets and nail 91 places?
I am a believer of screw and glue, but feel nailing would cause the least amount of out of level problems, since screws would likely pull things tight and any discrepiencies would show up.
The finish flooring will be a floating laminated tile.
Thanks for your opinion
A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
Replies
4-6" edges, 8" field - both ways grid
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
4-6" on the edges...good thing I asked
I thought 8" in the field was correct, but sure seemed like a lot of hardware since I'm using glue too.
What's your pref...nails instead of screws?
Thanks A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
Ring nails with glue is fiune but screws are better.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
I'm always looking for better than fine....it's the perfectionist part of me. Coming from you, I think I'll use the screws now.
Thanks again A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
Wonder how long it takes for someone to ask if I'm going to use Piffin screws. <G> A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
Don't need to the man 'isself told ya to...
http://www.piffinscrews.com Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
If I'm correct in my deduction of some of the posters here you'd better register screwpiffin.com pretty quick.
"just nail that board up there!!!"
"look, lady..."
it was right on the tips of my fingers, but I waved off on that one.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Seems your trademark of those special screws gets lots of attention here...you should have fired that one at me <G>
You had the golden opportunity LOL
A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
bobdude- level subfloor out before applying sheets of underlayment to address concern about pulling surface out of level w screws.... if nails don't pull sheets down, then voids will remain and cause squeaky floor or movement which can transmit to laminate and cause failure if beyond tolerance... drag a six foot level around to find the dips/crowns...Ardex makes a good leveler w/portland content
not important to hit joists, i like screws and glue best after leveling, ....best underlay fastener if subfloor is OSB... pulls multi layers in old work tight to stop squeaks... have to use enough glue though, find in remodel demos the thin lines glue didn't hold, generous streaks do and can see footprint of spread .....see if can rent pam gun or similar w collated strips of screws and extended drive to save back
laminate tile??? real sawdust and gluue for real people...
Thanks for the reply. The subfloor is fairly level, just a few places where the plywood seams are over joists it rises about 1/8 to 3/16". I hit those spots with a sander and knocked them down. When I dry fitted the underlayment, everything lays flat with no voids. With the level on the unsecured underlayment, it looks good so I don't think I need to use any leveler.
Re laminated tile...I plan to use (haven't purchased it yet) a product from Witex, the Casa collection. You have any opinion about this product? Here's a link for it:
http://witexusa.com/ A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
don't like the laminate/engineered products..... can't repair surface scratches on laminate....seen blowout in wet environments even w good installs... delams, expansion problems w/extremes of weather or humidity even w perimeter spacing....and they're not cheap. some bargain basement stuff, but a lot of costly material too...wood veneer lines that cost more than solid wood, etc.
you're depending on glue, sawdust, compressed paper or plywood. not artificial glue, mind you. real, genuine glue. real glue for real people. that's what i tell my customers, can always talk them into something that will last.
can't do a fixed-point repair on a floating floor because can't re-engage t&g joints...can't nail it, can't glue it, it's gotta float, so have to unzip whole floor to damaged panels. .....did a repair on a Kahr's floor where poly blew out... odd because happened in dry area of kitchen, had to be bad poly..... wanted me to refinish it, but no one in right mind will sand a 1/8" veneer and assume responsibility for burn-through in high crown areas
started at wall and demo'd floor past bad panels ..... catch was Kahr's discontinued that material few years earlier...searched, they came up with just enough to effect repair... what happens to next guy w/problem in same product line?
a good ceramic tile job is forever...use grade 4 tile (all residential, light commercial) and seal grout w high quality sealer, about $35. qt.
if you have enough floor structure and ply is rated underlayment grade or AC, drop tile on it. if need more floor, or a proper bonding surface, install some hardi board on top and put ceramic in...
Interesting info...I also wondered how a damaged piece in the field would be replaced. You answered that. Thanks for the advice.
Cheap it isn't...about $1600 for material alone, for a 18X14 floor. But the easy install is what got my attention and my DW likes the look and feel, which is almost like real ceramic tile.
Looks like I should look into the real thing. If I understand you correctly, it's OK to install ceramic on rated underlayment? I thought a specific product was required, like hardi board. A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
that's over $6. sf when you size one of those jobs, add the glue if it's glue joint, dedicated poly vapor barrier and perimeter sealant for wet areas, matching quarter round to cover perimeter expansion joint, etc.....
the quarter round some is wood w paint or stain, 90% is compressed paper w a colored vinyl wrap, like contact paper. even w good finish blade on chop, paper edge scufs up.....exposed ends at door casings show the genuine, real gray paper core. might be nice to color that w some paint, which no one does. always wondered, is that exposed genuine paper core going to take floor washing well?
just saying you have to add all the install goods into the total price have snap n lock seams and tap n lock seams which sound easier than they are. some of them really have to be beaten in to lock up tight
in a decent priced tile store grade 4 ceramic runs under $5 sf, specials around for way under that. grade 5 is higher rating, lower numbers are are getting trashy...the $ .86 - .99 sf tile specials at big boxes are grade 1, but are a great deal for a wall tile. big box tile often has thinner clay core, leads to convex arcing of tile, cracks easier as thinset doesn't support crowned area
use good thinset w latex modifier, same w grout, like mapei or tec products the best, place on UL or AC rated ply, or on hardi not required to use durock or hardi as substrate use recommended notched trowel, butter a spot on the floor and place a test tile down flat w a tap to seat it peel it up and check footprint of mud for good contact across if blotchy, go to next bigger notched trowel develop system to place tiles flat and uniformly to keep floor flat if a tile looks bad, peel it and re-lay
pull up some archives or get a taunton or jlc book on tile.... snapping control lines and rechecking successive courses for straight lines is important. can use straight edges, but bear in mind that tile is baked dirt and isn't square, had some +/- 1/8" tiles, which requires straight edge as base guide and doing some free floating to keep the lines clean extra work but it was beautiful stuff
big room use at least 12 x 12 tile, the 8 x 8 is too busy w grout joints no gray grouts unless they have a silver highlight to them, gray looks dirty, best grout match has color to it that picks up color of the tile
use a flat surface tile w almost no topography to it, but not polished or so smooth it's slippery when wet some funky porcelain tiles mimicking stone have almost 1/4" relief which kills your back no holes or sharp shapes to catch dirt, seen some porcelain like that which looks filthy
don't worry too much about how square the room is, cause its not do layout so that relatively even cut tiles end the job, not a 14' line w a 3" taper to it that's an eyesore i try to start layout at key entries with a full tile for richer look if opposing entries, might have to split the difference on width of cut try dry laying to get the feel, do not step on tile, use spacers camouflage areas like cabinet toekicks and end walls w dinette set are not areas to worry about full tiles for layout, they hide the cuts
mix thinset in small batches for control, 1/2" low rpm drill w mixing wand uniform consistency, smooth, holds a peak, not soupy or thick don't retemper a batch w water as it heats up, throw it out
take your time, doesn't have to be finished in a day or one week, right is better can also fasten tile with a piffinscrew........gotta ask, what the hell is a piffinscrew?
there are different screws for different purposes. I once made a big deal out of not using sheetrock screws to hang wall cabinets because of fracturing at the shoulders making it possible for the cab to fall off the wall under load.
apparantly, using the right screw for the job made enough impact around here that everyone uses piffinscrews now.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
piffin- you're right i use lag bolts w hex head and flat washer for kitchen boxes, but i'm not volunteering that to these animals these are the kind of guys that, when you find your cat missing, you see one of them with a grinder roll with animal legs sticking out of it and an empty bottle of grey poupon lying on the floor.
hey I love cats, they're delicious! they taste so much like rabbit there is a section in a famous french food dictionary describing the differences in bone structure so that one could tell if one were slipped the kitty when one ordered the rabbit at a restaurant.
now on to serious business, i may be underbuilding, which is why i ask the question.
when installing plywood A/C underlayment it is common in california to use staples alone to secure underlayment to subfloor, and it is usually 3-4 inches on the rim, and less then 8 in the field. this is the system for lino floor system, which will not be glued to underlayment if there are no seams, it floats and is held down by base and transition strips at doors. is this underbuilt?
for tile it is always hardi board with screws for underlayment. the transition of tile over wood is a recipe for cracks. is this overbuilding?
the reason i ask is that wood moves, hardi board and tile don't. when you secure a wood underlayment to subfloor for a tile backer even though you have securely fastened the underlayment with glue and screws the wood will expand and contract at a different rate then tile and grout. if you use hardi board the movement of contrary materials will be between subfloor and underlayment, and the tile will be preserved. this was my thinking and if i am wrong and can just use A/C ply underlayment with glue and screw please tell me.
my cat saw your post. was looking at a gun catalog. hate when she does that
in new england ply has been used for a long time w/o problems some guys throw metal lathe down, w a scratch coat on up to a mudbed think the mudbed is too much weight, no one ever adds the framing for it using ply underlay got a boost from early 80's on w all the OSB being used, added panel strength, rigidity
subdivision i installed all underlay, trim & hardwood 3/4" t&g OSB subfloors, 1/2" ply ul for vinyl, 5/8" ply ul for tile areas all ply ac grade glue between layers experimented, ringshanks into joists then either underlay ringshanks or staples for field then went to screws, no ringshanks, which won hands down for holding power used a tall pam decking gun w collated strips of screws, only reason my back still works
been back to lot of homes did this in for new work, no problems w old, cracking etc. don't think i'd hesitate to use hardi board over 3/4" t&g ply subfloor though, nice product wouldn't feel the same about durock even if mudded down, doesn't seem rigid enough for panel over joist bay on subfloor layer alone
on ply sub decks almost always see 1/2" ply ul works out good heightwise for transition from tile to hardwood floor always put wood floor in 1st, then tile so mortar bond not broken by hammering
might want to check vinyl specs for fastener schedule think manufacturers want 6" pattern in field of underlayment for warranty
another perk is plywood scraps are the best for cooking domestic animals.... beats mesquite, hickory who said glue is bad for us?
Thanks for the useful tips...
fasten tile with a piffinscrew........
use piffinscrews to fasten steel plates to the subfloor and then glue magnets to the bottom of the tile A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
piffinscrews are made of titanium....will that hold magnets?
should hold, add duct tape......just to be sure <G>
So you really think that laminated stuff is junk huh?
The guy I bought my cabinets from has the same laminated ceramic tile in his showroom and his house. Both looked great after being installed a few years ago. No scratches/damge and supposed to be guaranteed against water damage...core is treated. Also no glue to install, they snap/lock together.
Still kinda hung up on the stuff.... A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
real glue for real people.....
the snap & lock is not as easy as it sounds glue joint eliminated, it depends on compression fit, has to be tight to be weather-tight sometimes has to be beaten in, sounds bad but that's how tight the fit can be
big help is using a flooring mallet, wood handle, iron head w/ replaceable non-marring white rubber mallet face use these on prefinish wood floors, no marks to clean, no dents on leading edge same thing w laminates, and can strike center of panel too, no damage straps and tapping blocks don't cut it
guys in flooring biz have told me they have to carry laminate to be competitive and there's bucks in it... they'll also say "there's a better way" to "it's trash" on quality the only time i can see its use is when it's going over tile or concrete and the money is not there for tile demo or ply substrate etc
gotta be environmental issues with the glues, no ones touched that yet comes down to hoping it works out with the laminate and knowing it will work w ceramic. that stuff is in buildings generations old... centuries later it's still in Pompeii after a volcano, and they didn't have piffin screws back then
Thanks for the info...
still undecided... A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
I've installed the Witek before, thought it was decent, but pricey. Very easy to install. You want a good underlay (not necessarily Witek's - shop around). Another issue is it is noisy even with thick spongy underlay - people in the room underneath will hear a pin drop.
I found the Witek to be moisture proof and movement stable.
Tough to fix damage, but then tough to damage. Easier on the joints (knees, ankles, etc) than ceramic. No grout lines to stain with spills.
If you install it, buy a good beater bar (don't bother with Witek's crappy kit; get Pergo or ?). Don't worry about a fancy beater block, use a 2x4 and a Witek cutoff with a tongue to protect the open groove.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Ahh...a vote of confidence from someone who's used Witex
Thanks
You want a good underlay (not necessarily Witek's - shop around).
Meaning the underlay pad? This tile can be purchased with an attached pad...so your advising buying another? Such as? If that's the case, I can buy this flooring with or without....as you probably already know ;-)
I plan to do the install. I have a flooring mallet... but no beater bar, and not sure where/how it is used other than what the name implies. Is it needed to seat the sections together? A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
I'n ot scared of laminated floors ...
and the wilsonart tapNlock I just installed went together real easy.
just buy the manufacturers tap block ... or get a generic one somewhere ... it'll keep you from deforming the t&G's as you tap it home.
I've also installed a coupla glue down floaters ... same deal ... they don;t scare me much either.
I did have a question about that site ... I was wondering about the underlayment/padding. U say the tiles come with a padded back? Never heard of that ... I'll have to dig thru that site.
I can tell ya ... if a padded underlay is needed ... Wilsonart makes one out of rubber .. as opposed to the cheapie thin foam/4 mil plastic sheeting most everyone else carries ...
That underlay ... combined with an 8 mil poly ... is pretty much bullet proof under the flooring.
There's engineered .. and there's laminated ...
not always the same animal.
usually .. the engineered stuff ... while hard to repair ... is pretty tough stuff.
I'd check the full install costs on all the options ...
but don't be too afraid of the "fake" stuff.
I forget .. is this for a kitchen?
Lotsa my time is spent getting paid a pretty good dollar laying ceramic tile in other peoples homes ... and personally .. I think ceramic is about the worst choice for a kitchen floor there is. But if you wanna pay me ... I ain't gonna argue.
Jeff
Buck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
the tiles come with a padded back? Never heard of that
it's about 1/8 thick and attached...look at the site for
View Image
View Image...distributor says that's all that's needed and recommends it. What warrants the need to use padded underlay? The rubber Wilsonart sounds like something I might be interested in, if I decide to use this stuff. Use 8 m poly too? Wasn't planning to. If it's to protect the ply underlayment from liquid spills, wouldn't a coat of shellac or sealer be just as sufficient?
There's engineered .. and there's laminated
laminated and is for a kitchen floor.
Why the frown on using ceramic...real or fake...for a kitchen? The only negative thing I can think of is something fragile can break or damage the floor, if dropped. A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
I'd skip any other underlay if that's what the manufacturers say ...
too much would probably be too much flex(at the locked seams)
The poly is for over concrete ... when a vapor barior is needed.
I'n not a big fan of real ceramic in a kitchen as the grout is too much a maintanance issue for a lazy guy like me ... sealers only do so much ... and since grout is basically cement .. and cement is basically porous .... spills soon become stains.
The "perfect" kitchen floor ... for me ... a no seam sheet good floor.
Good old vinyl .....
or ... a laminate.
maybe even a laminate that looks like tile?
Be sure to take pics.
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
ahhh Jeff...good post.."good ol vinyl" ..no arguements there. I am rethinking my end grain flooring for my kitchen,, having been "in" for two weeks or so with the dog an two cats..an all the cunstrction mudd everywhere outside...you getthe point.
Probly kill the Bosch 12" cutting 40 rails of 4x8x8 into blocks an inch and a quarter thick..thatsa lotta cutting..
View Image
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
plus the fact ...
good old vinyl ...
has taken leaps and bounds in quality and attractiveness the last coupla years.
There's some really nice stuff available out there nowadays .....
JeffBuck Construction Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
maybe even a laminate that looks like tile?
Again, another positive note regarding laminated flooring...especially the simulated tile. Based on what's been said here and what I've read elsewhere, I plan on using this.
I just removed sheet flooring and don't really have any interest in reinstalling the same.
Thanks for your input. A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work
Sorry, I haven't seen/used the attached Witek underlay. The one I like (can't remember name) is similar to Jeff's.
Witek definitely has the best interlock technology. I was told that Pergo bought them for that very reason.
A beater bar is a flat metal bar with short opposing bends on either end. To fit the last row, you can't use a beater block - no room if against a wall - you have to use the beater bar. Hook one end on the outside edge of flooring, and beat on the other upturned end with a hammer to pull the tiles together. Comes in handy, I used it for more than just the last row, like for "adjusting" an entire row of tiles laterally. Pergo makes a good one, order one from a flooring store.
Regards,
Tim Ruttan
Thanks for all your input. I greatly appreciate your opinion on this product.
I believe I'm going to use it ......
Re: beater bar... Pergo it is
Thanks again A bad day at home is still better than a good day at work