Trying to find objective info on replacement window materials. I live in W. FL and am trying to decide on Ali, Vinyl or Fiber Glass. All opinions welcome.
Mike
Discussion Forum
Discussion Forum
Up Next
Video Shorts
Featured Story
Join some of the most experienced and recognized building professionals for two days of presentations, panel discussions, networking, and more.
Highlights
"I have learned so much thanks to the searchable articles on the FHB website. I can confidently say that I expect to be a life-long subscriber." - M.K.
Fine Homebuilding Magazine
Fine Home Building
Follow
-
Fine Homebuilding
Dig into cutting-edge approaches and decades of proven solutions with total access to our experts and tradespeople.
Start Free Trial Now -
GBA Prime
Get instant access to the latest developments in green building, research, and reports from the field.
Start Free Trial Now
- Home Group
- Antique Trader
- Arts & Crafts Homes
- Bank Note Reporter
- Cabin Life
- Cuisine at Home
- Fine Gardening
- Fine Woodworking
- Green Building Advisor
- Garden Gate
- Horticulture
- Keep Craft Alive
- Log Home Living
- Military Trader/Vehicles
- Numismatic News
- Numismaster
- Old Cars Weekly
- Old House Journal
- Period Homes
- Popular Woodworking
- Script
- ShopNotes
- Sports Collectors Digest
- Threads
- Timber Home Living
- Traditional Building
- Woodsmith
- World Coin News
- Writer's Digest
Replies
MBaybut,
There is no Consumer Reports on windows.. sorry but that's what is really called for because everything you will see here is opinion. some may be based on ownership or long term relationship.
However there is a lot of built in bias price ease of installation sevice avialability etc. are all part of that package.. Frankly that varies.
I could sit here and trash vinyl windows for example as cheap and cold and inefficent.. however that doesn't have the same impact in Florida where the demands are differnt than here in Minnesota..
Plus one manufactures fiberglas window may be real cheapo's while another's are decent quality stuff.
It's not so much the window but who's going to do the install and what sort of back up will there be in the event of a problem.. The cheesest window possible properly installed will probably be OK. However the best window poorly installed will be a real nightmare..
No objective comparisons available. Local knowledge and experience is probably your best indicator.
What Frenchy said.
Here in Tulsa it's not any easier. I wouldn't install anything less than the aluminum windows from a local company,Thermal Windows Corp. Clients lately have been asking me about vinyl from a national co. here. The price is ridiculously low including install but they get you with extras like glass, an exaggeration.
I didn't have a good response to why the shouldn't use them since most of the clients were asking based on price. I tried to point out all good bargains don't have good value.
After witnessing an install by a couple of there "highly trained" installers I will work harder at talking clients out of using this company. They are unskilled hacks.
Whatever you chose don't except less than a quality install with no damage to frame, walls or interior furnishings. Demand tarps and a thorough clean up. And make them haul the trash away. Oh and have them leave there dogs at home as well.
A low price quality job is a stupidity of thought and an expression of ignorance!
Since I'll be needing new windows soon, I was browsing posts and the "aluminum windows" in your post caught my eye.
As you seem to like these, I'm curious as the only aluminum windows I've had have been miserable to live with. What makes these worthy of your praise?
Consumer Reports has rated windows in Oct 07.
Best Buy ratings given to Anderson 200 and 400 series and Pella Proline and Impervia. Marvin rated highest overall but expensive.
Outside clad in aluminum or vinyl. Impervia is fiberglass.
Thanks, Dave! I suscribe to ConRep, so I'll check it out. Leaning toward wood with cladding right now.
am trying to decide on Ali, Vinyl or Fiber Glass.
Ummmm...there's this really awesome stuff I saw in a high-end window catalogue the other week. Can be painted or stained; has inherent insulating value equal to or better than most thermo-glass; won't chalk-out, off-gas nasty chlorides, or dent; looks great and is available in a whole range of types.
It's called 'solid wood.'
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not brought
low by this? For thine evil pales before that which
foolish men call Justice....
two problems with solid wood-
You get splinters trying top wash them
You can't see through the cellulose and lignins.
Bada bing!
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Bada bing!
Ooooooh, the Master's in rare form tonite, folks....
View Image
Dinosaur
How now, Mighty Sauron, that thou art not broughtlow by this? For thine evil pales before that whichfoolish men call Justice....
You can get lots of technical info on every door/window that's manufactured from the National Fenestration Rating Council (http://www.nfrc.org, I think). Probably way more info that you'll ever need. You should have some idea of what manufacturer/model before you go there though.
IMO, solid wood windows with vinyl clad exteriors are usually winners in most situations (like Andersen 200 or 400 series).
Only some Andersens are vinyl clad. Double hungs are painted exterior.
To All:
The best window in the world is only as good as it's installation.
sledgehammer,
I'm shocked and everybody at Andersen is shocked that my vinyl clad doublehungs don't exist.
My catalogs go back only 9 years so I can't tell you when they started to do that but 24 double hung vinyl clad windows in my house make you wrong.. <grin>
I'm sure Andersen would be shocked.
Since their 200 and 400 series double hungs have a flexacron finish.... which is paint.
The frame is vinyl the sash is painted
Edited 4/12/2008 12:58 pm ET by sledgehammer
Frenchy, you're both right, Andersen DH windows have painted wood sash with vinyl glazing bead in a vinyl wrapped frame. Rich
Edit shoulda read the rest of the thread
Edited 4/13/2008 9:30 am ET by rlrefalo
I've put in a lot of Andersen clad DHs in the past year or so, a whole lot. Not sure what you are referring to.
Sledge is right.That has been one of the drawbacks to Andersen, especially in colors other than white...the paint on the sashes may start out with the same color as the vinyl clading on the jamb and sill, but they fade at different rates.This may be the reason they discontinued some colors.
After I tell people they have to paint their windows they frequently comeback with.... but they told me they were vinyl clad....
They who????
Edited 4/12/2008 3:48 pm ET by sledgehammer
At least with the double hungs, the sashes are removable, so if the weather is nice...pull the sashes and paint (leaving the screen in place). Let the paint dry thoroughly, and replace.I prefer the clad Marvins or even the clad Pella over the painted Andersen
"
Only some Andersens are vinyl clad. Double hungs are painted exterior."
That depends on which exterior finish you order
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
As far as Andersen Double-hung windows there are two series. The 200 Series Permashield Narroline and and the 400 Series Tilt-Wash. The exterior surface of the sashes are only available in a Flexicron (painted) finish.Andersen Woodwright Double-hungs, however, never need painting; or Renewal by Andersen, which is Fibrex.In my own house I just paint a few windows a year. I take the sashes out and paint the interior and exterior surface....they look great!.View Image
Guys just check the anderson web site. (or actually look at an anderson window) before you go making claims that are simply not true.http://www.andersenwindows.com/servlet/Satellite/Coastal-Windows-Doors_Storm-windows.htmAnderson windows casement and double hung have Perma-Shield¯ vinyl cladding on exteriors of both the frame and sash.The finish on the exterior of most Anderson windows is not paint it is Perma-Shield¯ vinyl cladding. and has been since 1966 when they patented their cladding process. So unless you are installing windows made before 1966 they are vinyl clad exteriors.
"Anderson windows casement and double hung have Perma-Shield¯ vinyl cladding on exteriors of both the frame and sash"
I also do warrenty service for Andersen. Have seen 10's of thousands of windows up close and personal. I have never seen a 200 or 400 double hung sash with anything other then a Flexacron painted finish, but if you say yours are vinyl, I believe you...
sledgehammer,
You seemed so absolutely sure that I was forced to check my windows. Vinyl clad both the 24 400 series double hung and the one 200 series. You can clearly see where it wraps around the wood and goes into the channel cut to recieve it..
I'm not doubting your dh sash are vinyl clad. I have never seen it and it is not standard.
Standard features per product guide:
Sash-
G) a polyester stabilized coat with a flexacron finish is electrostatically applied to penetrate all exterior surfaces for maximum protection and a lustrous finish.
Standard is flexacron.... flexacron is paint.
sledgehammer,
As I said earlier I went down to the big box store (Home Depot) and bought them off the shelf. I don't know how much more standard it can be than that.. Oh and I bought them over a six year period.. whenever I finished that section of the house I bought windows for it.. Since I standardized on two sizes. (the most common sizes as it turnes out) I expect replacements to always be readily available.
Yes it is standard on 400 series windows I have 2 400 series windows I picked right off the shelf at HD and they are are vinyl clad. And Anderson's catalog does not list vinyl clad as a extra option it is standard.
Edited 4/14/2008 11:55 pm ET by MFournier
I do not say it Anderson does.!!!!
Here is some more info from Andersen describing clad jamb & sill, but paint only on sashes:--"(DC) Tilt-Wash Double-Hung Windows - 1992 to 1996
(TW) Tilt-Wash Double-Hung Windows - 1996 to Present The Tilt-Wash (DC) Double-Hung window was introduced in 1992. The unit combines
tilting panels for easy cleaning with superior weather tight construction. Tilt-Wash units are produced in basic unit, picture, side light and transom sizes. The units are available in
White, Terratone and Sandtone. Features Sash : Exterior protected with urethane-based finish (meaning paint!). Wood members treated with water-repellent preservative. Interior face left clear for painting or staining. Prefinished White interior available as option."http://www.andersenwindows.com/servlet/Satellite?blobcol=urldata&blobheader=application%2FpdfContent-Disposition%3A+inline%3B+filename%3DHistory.pdf%3B&blobkey=id&blobnocache=false&blobtable=MungoBlobs&blobwhere=1093363469251&ssbinary=true
They are really gonna flip when they find out what the exterior is on a frenchwood door.
To be fair, the product lines and finishes/cladding on the Andersen stuff is plenty confusing.This may be one reason (consistency) that Marvin has the highest satisfaction rating among builders:http://www.marvin.com/?page=JD_Power
It took me awile to understand it all, and windows are my main business.
I still like the looks when I tell them that ain't vinyl and needs painting... I now know who the "they" are... when customers say... "but they told me it was vinyl clad"
I'll put a wager out to any and all. I have 12- 3056 Narrolines 3/8" welded glass. I want to convert them to 400 series tiltwash high performance. The sash must be vinyl clad... no flexicron. Tell me what part number to order and I'll send you a $50.00 check.
Easy money.
I stand corrected.I'll sit down now - shortest speech I ever gave
;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
400 I have a double hung 400 right in front of me. When I tilt open the sash look at the edge of the window you can see the edge of the cladding were it wraps around the sash.
Like I said guys check your facts before you make claims that are not true.
Look for an Integrity by Marvin dealer.
http://www.integritywindows.com/
They are pultruded fiberglass and are much better than vinyl (if you don't want wood or clad wood windows).
for your climate, I would be looking at Marvin's Integrity line
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I'm sure I'll be flamed for saying this, but here it goes.
I agree with the other posters on Marvin/Pella/Andersen and their qualities.
A couple of questions not mentioned, are you doing this yourself? Are you
comfortable with the trim work etc? Reason I say this is, Andersen has a lower end
line of windows (avail at the dreaded orange box) that is vinyl and has the J-
channel molded into the frame. By no means is it Fine Homebuilding craftsmanship
and quality. However, it will save tons of time trying to figure out how to make the
outside details look good. Like anything there are trade-offs and it really depends
what you like, and how much you can afford.
-D
When you say:"Andersen has a lower end line of windows (avail at the dreaded orange box) that is vinyl and has the J-channel molded into the frame."
What product are you talking about? 200 Series Permashield Narroline Double-Hung? They are high-quality windows, the same available at any lumber dealer as well as the orange box. There is no such thing as a 'lesser quality' Andersen product available only at Depot..View Image
Jocobe,
I didn't say only at HD, jus that they're available. However, check this out.
http://www.americancraftsmanwin.com/
-D
Damn.....I did not know that. An Andersen Company......Some think that Depot's Andersen windows are of a lesser quality then ones sold elsewhere; which is not true.I didn't realize they own a vinyl window company..View Image
No biggie.... that's why we come here. Learn something just about everytime I log
on.
-D
They own a premium millwork company also, I think it is called KML. High end custom work.
I'm going to a service provider training glass on KML this Wednesday! I have not installed any KML products, but I have provided service. Very high end, nice quality product..View Image
I use to be a service provider for Andersen windows a few years back, sooooo much driving. Hate to be doing that with todays gas prices. The KML products I've seen look very nice.
I have a pretty small, well populated area so I rarely drive more then a 20 mile radius of my home. Tomorrow I'm traveling about 30 miles away, but I have 4 stops in the same vicinity making it more cost effective. I'd say about 99% of the time I don't work more then 20 to 30 minutes from my home, at any time..View Image
Whats most of the work these days? Back when I was doing the work we did alot of sash pinning, skylight replacements, collapsed glass replacement, alot of stress cracks on large stationary units.
That is an American Craftsman window not a Anderson window. To call it a Anderson window is like calling a Dodge a Mercedes just because Daimler owns the company.Yes American Craftsman is a Anderson company but these windows are not the same as a true anderson window.
If you live near the ocean do not install anything aluminum.
Personally I have liked Milgard plastic windows when I lived in CA near the ocean.
Ahem,.... Ahem.... Marvin (alum clad) with Kynar paint have passed AAMA
test for coastal applications... (Air, Salt & Sand spray test) Best paint finish in the industry.
As long as GOD makes "bad builders" and rich people... I will have a job
All the aluminum windows I've seen are rather cheesy. Aluminum does not do well in salt air, either. I'd recommend not using aluminum.
One thing that really matters is that the windows be firmly mounted to the building to resist being blown out whole by strong winds.
The exterior of 200 and 400 series Andersen Double-Hung windows are a Flexicron finish, which means it is paint. They are not vinyl and will eventually need to be painted. The frames, however, are vinyl clad.
Around the perimeter of the glass, on the sash, is a vinyl glazing bead. However the rest of the sash is painted wood.
.
Edited 4/14/2008 5:20 pm ET by jocobe
This is the biggest problem I have with Andersen. I think quality for price they are great and from my experience their service is too, but why all the different materials? Their twdh 400 series have pvc clad exterior frames, fibrex sills, and flexacron finished sashes. So one the exterior you have a painted wood, pvc, and a composite material. IMO I'd rather pay a little more and have a clad marvin (or possibly a fiberglass like thermotech), but I'm not in a coastal area and I dislike vinyl.
Guys the OP asked for unbiased advice on windows... which I gave.
Until the uninformed masses started chiming in on matters which they have no clue did I feel the need for correction. I wouldn't give advice on concrete posts because I know nothing about it other the I have it around my house. I don't give my unbiased opinion on roofing because I don't have a clue.... but I do have a roof.
For those that don't believe me take some time out tomorrow, call Andersens toll free number for service. Get a part number and I'll send the first person to prove me wrong a check.
Till then stop giving unbiased advice on things you have no knowledge of.
The only Andersen double-hungs that are maintenance free on the exterior are Woodwright and Renewal.I have 200 Series DHs and some 400 Series TW DHs in my home. I'd still rather have these over a vinyl window. On my DHs, I'll just paint a few windows a year, and they look absolutely great. I remove the sashes, paint both sides and stick 'em back in. It's really not a big deal. If you want maintenance free, I'd go with Andersen Woodwright..View Image