New Boiler – Guestimated price?
The boiler at the local historical society museum has started leaking, so naturally they’re considering replacing it. They got an “off the cuff” estimate from a HVAC guy in town of about $12,000 to replace the boiler.
To me, that sounds awfully high. But I also know next to nothing about boilers.
I attached a pic of the museum to give an idea what we’re dealing with. The first 2 floors are heated. The basement and attic are not.
The heating system is single pipe steam heat with big iron radiators. The boiler is in the basement. There is no AC, so obviously there is no ductwork.
Once the weather warms up we plan to disassemble and remove the old boiler with volunteer labor. The the HVAC contractor would have plenty of room to install a new one.
I’m just looking for a sort of “reality check” to know if it’s possible the figure the guy threw out is actually with in reason.
Democracy is where you can say what you think even if you don’t think.
Replies
What boiler did they spec? Also, what is the fuel, gas, oil, propane.
I have a few friends who install small boilers up to ones for large apartment buildings. Mostly oil but some natural gas. If you know the size of the boiler they spec'd and brand name, I can get you a ballpark price for the Boston area which would certainly be much higher than your area.
Is there much re piping needed or can they just cut out the old and tie right back in?
"What boiler did they spec? Also, what is the fuel, gas, oil, propane."
I was just an offhand guestimate, without them even looking at the house.
The fuel would be natural gas.
Democracy, the practice of self-government, is a covenant among free men to respect the rights and liberties of their fellows. [Franklin D. Roosevelt]
Go over to http://www.heatinghelp.com and click on "Questions" or "The Wall". Also they have a "Find a Professional" link there.
You don't want just anybody for a steam system.
If the contractor doesn't perform a heat loss calculation take a pass. A new heatloss calc must be done. Cannot rely on "rule of thumb" or replacement sized to match the old one.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
Boss, my pard and me have been studying up on hot water heating systems. We know enough to be dangerous, so please regard this as for what it is worth. Zero.
Best guess from the pic you gave is that your heat loss is somewhere in the 750K Btu/h range, and that a bank of three big mod-cons will do the job, coming in at about $2800 each. The new radiators, piping, and controls will make up the rest. Your local guys are about right.
problem is, it's a steam system.
Depending on what needs to be done, that sounds real cheap.
Ron,
The very first time I got bids on a hot water baseboard system I was in shock.
I looked at it pretty closely and found that the equipment was a huge part of the cost and that there was a huge price difference between quality levels of equipment.
Hey boss, careful with the volunteer labour. Probably lots of asbestos in there. Could jack the price and the liability WAY up.
"...careful with the volunteer labour. Probably lots of asbestos in there."
It WILL be done with volunteer labor - No doubt about it. That is in no way shape or form negotiable.
Why? Because my Dad and a couple of other bull-headed old guys take care of the maintenance there. Ther's absolutely no way in hell they're gonna let a contractor do anything if they think they can save $10 doing it themselves.
Right or wrong, they're gonna do it. Only God could stop 'em.
Sex discriminates against the shy and the ugly.
"It WILL be done with volunteer labor - No doubt about it. That is in no way shape or form negotiable.
Why? Because my Dad and a couple of other bull-headed old guys take care of the maintenance there. Ther's absolutely no way in hell they're gonna let a contractor do anything if they think they can save $10 doing it themselves.
Right or wrong, they're gonna do it. Only God could stop 'em. "
That could very well be a recipe for disaster. Even talented heating guys just don't suddenly decide that they are gonna install a steam system when they never did one before.
Perhaps YOU could get a steam "dead men" disciple (See book: Lost Art of Steam Heating) to oversee the volunteer grunt work of the R&R. But have him spec the replacement and perform the setup and tuning. You don't want a steam system done wrong.
The old setup might not even be correct from the begining.
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
FYI - I meant that the old boiler would be removed with volunteer labor. When the new one is installed, there will likely be 3 or 4 guys hanging around trying to help. I'm not directly involved in this, and am not part of the decision making process. I try to stay out of controversial stuff out there. Dealign with stubborn retired people is all but hopeless. Especially when one of them is my Dad.(-:
No one ever hurt their eyes by looking at the bright side of life.
Boss,
Steam boilers are sized by EDR (effective direct radiation) ratings, not BTUs. The contractor should simply add up the EDR of all the connected radiators and that is the size boiler needed. The cost from one size of boiler to the next is only a small part of the price. However, too big and the boiler will short cycle, overshoot, overheat, and trip out. Too small and it will not do the job of properly filling all of the radiators with steam at the same time.
As far as the old boiler goes, watch out for asbestos, many of the old boilers were completely wrapped in a thick layer of it. Old pipe insulation is often full of it. Many of these old buildings have an outside set of steps to the basement. I've taken lots of boilers up and down the ouside steps in one piece with a heavy-duty comealong and a few 2x12's and bridge planks. I can almost guarantee that the gaskets in the boiler are asbestos, (even if the exposed insulation has been mitigated), this way they aren't disturbed.
Looking at the size of that building, that price doesn't surprise me one bit. I was thinkin' is was actually kinda low, but I forgot to adjust from NJ union rates to IL bubba rates.....lol.
Bob
I agree with 'Patch' 100% Those guys at 'heatinghelp' live for these kinds of jobs. Send them some pics of the boiler. Also you may want to consider adding heat to the third floor. And how well is the building been insulated? BTW it is a beautiful building but it is screaming for some colour. It looks like it was dipped in a pool of white.
Also do not forget to apply for tax credits if you upgrade the boiler or the insulation.
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#s6
"how well is the building been insulated?"
Not a lick of insulation anywhere. And no, we're not gonna put any in. We can't take a chance on messing up any of the inside plaster or exterior wood siding. The house has been that way for 100 years, so there's no reason to change it now.
(Although some of them may be willing to change their minds now that winter heating bills are $900+ a month)
"BTW it is a beautiful building but it is screaming for some colour. It looks like it was dipped in a pool of white."
Nope - Sorry. It's been white on white for 100 years. There's no reason to change it now.
(Haven't you ever dealt with a group of stubborn old people ???)
I don't think the energy tax credit would do any good, since it's owned by a non-profit organization...
You cannot produce a baby in one month by impregnating nine women.
Does that building have felt under the siding? If not, don't insulate it--it's survived all this time by being able to dry out. You blow all the bays full of shredded newspaper and suddenly it stays wet. Excellent way to ruin a perfectly good old building.
No felt or anything behind the siding.I have helped fix the leaky built-in gutters that let water run down inside the walls. It's amazing the building has lasted as long as it has.
The game of love is never called off on account of darkness.
I got called for an estimate to reside a church. It's about 100 years old with horizontal shiplap siding an inch thick, in good condition. Seems that a few years ago they had someone install blown in cellulose and now they are starting to see water stains around the windows. No problems like that during the previous 95 years. The guy that called me is smart enough to know that fixing this will require removing and replacing all siding over felt.
Well if they do rethink the insulation thing they should take a look at this:http://www.retrofoam.comCoud'nt hurt to get a free estimate. And I seriously doubt that it has been white on white since it was built. Besides a nice colour scheme would get the locals something to talk about and maybe generate some extra visitors
"I seriously doubt that it has been white on white since it was built."
We have several pictures of the house from back around 1890. (It was built in the 1880s) Not one pictures shows a lick of color.
I've also done some R+R work on parts of the house, and have never seen a hint of anything but white.
Don't ask me why - Maybe it was tradition, or because white paint was cheap. But I'm pretty sure it was always all white.
Would a fly without wings be called a walk?
Agree with you on white on white -- nobody, and I mean nobody, I ever knew or saw when a kid, ever painted a house in Cent. IL anything but white till maybe in the late 50's.
Mostly it was white lead pigment, super cheap back when. Parents house built turn of century, also grandparents built by grandpa in 1907 next door, know for a fact that there was never anything but white paint on the outside of either house.
Barns were red 'cause red lead was even cheaper than white lead.
Lincoln's house up the street was the only one I ewver saw when a kid that was anything but white (beige). No idea who painted it that color or why or when, probably would say on the internet, too lazy to look.
Based on a guestimate from the $900 Ameren gas bill, about 120,000 BTU hr continuous during the winter month. One item to maybe consider Ron. I don't recall going into the basement when at the house, but if a 70-90,000 BTU or so 92% (no flue needed) forced air furnace could be added in the basement with minimal discrete ducting to one or 2 registers to just the 1st floor you could save about $70 a month on the heating bill. Steam, by nature of being hotter than condensing temp by defintion, is not conducive to getting better than 80% or so efficiency out of nat. gas; whereas the condensing forced air units get well over 90%.
The small nat gas forced air addition would run 100% of the time in the cold of winter. The new smaller boiler, 100,000 BTU or so(runs about $2.5K) would make up the difference.
$70 a month is about $400 or so a year depending on weather, payback probably in the first year since the DIY cost of the gas furnace is mostly offset by the $$ difference in a 100K vs 200K BTU boiler.
Might be worthwhile seeing if your Dad and his buddies want to crunch some numbers and then determine if there is a discrete spot to put the gas furnace and a couple of ducts in the basement.
$70 a month buys a lot of beer after the first year<G>. Pretty sure the price of gas is only going to go UP.
Mom's small house hit $300 a couple of times for nat gas., if she was younger I'd consider changing out her old 80% furnace for a condensing unit. About $150-$200 a year savings, so she'd need to reach over 100 YO in the house for it to pay if I factor into the DIY cost of airfare to IL<G>
Interesting idea, adding a GFA unit. That would also allow for the option of adding AC on the first floor at some point in time.I'll run the idea by them and see what they think. Offhand I kinda doubt they'll go for it, but it's worth a shot.Dad (And many of the other members) don't like change. Adding a GFA unit is definitely a change.
When the phone don't ring, you'll know it's me.
"Offhand I kinda doubt they'll go for it, but it's worth a shot. Dad (And many of the other members) don't like change"So how long do you think it will take for you to get like that? ;-)
"So how long do you think it will take for you to get like that?"
If you and I both show up for a fest one iof these days, remind me to knock you upside the head.
(-:
I want you beside me when I'm old and gray.
Actually, I need someone to lean on so I don't fall.
I kinda doubt they'll go for it
Well, if they want no change, just suggest to simply fix the leak in the old one.
Nickel rod and balin' wire filler on a cracked cast iron boiler should work. Aint nuthin cant be fixed (or partially re-manufactured) by a few old farmers with a welder and a spool of baling wire <G>
I was thinking more along the line of some JB-weld to fix the leak.(-:
Smart people speak from experience. Smarter people, from experience, don't speak.
I ran your info and price by my friend and, without seeing how it is piped and any extra's, he thought 12k was very high. If you don't have much extra's then he said 8k. If you need a commercial sized boiler and its delivered in sections and needs to be assembled then you'll have added labor expense.
For steam boilers they usually install weil mclean, both residential and commerical, and I know they have done a lot of warranty replacements of burnham's.