We are a mid sized builder in NC. We do all out own foundation and masonary work, site clears, framing and drywall as we are busy enough to keep everyone working. We just got sick of having to deal with so many subs, it just easier for us to build with our own crews, in the beginning it was a ugly to manage and took us a while to get the kinks worked out, but works very well for us now.
What I am thinking about is starting a new company to do everything from site clears and excavation through foudations (block and poured walls, brick veneers etc) for other builders, as a turnkey service. Is this something you would be interested in? Would you pay a small premium for this service? Have you seen similiar services?
Thanks
Replies
yes, I would imagine that you could do the job at the same price as all of those subs put together. Builder always like to have a large amount covered by one sub. It is one phone call and makes things go smoother. Are you coming to VA soon. Im in
HCG
Interesting thought but wouldn't you find yourself subbing to your competitors. Isn't your idea really just a multi-disciplinary sub?
If you can show an advantage (economic or otherwise) you should do ok but I would expect you'll be bidding each trade individually so your customer(s) can comparison shop.
probuilder,
I build the shells for a lot of owners and work for a few remodelers. I am doing a 45,000.00 foundation now for a remodeler , I would like to frame it too but am swamped with work. It works well to work for others.
http://www.shelladditions.com
Great website you got there. A+
Nice website and good business idea.
We have done "dry-in" packages for people building new homes. I like it, but of the 8-10 we have done, all have later said that they wished they would have had us finish. They ate up their time and really did not save any money, in fact most say they probably spent more money and certainly took much longer.
This may be different with smaller Additions projects. I really like your business idea, and it is a very nice website. Perhaps you could include a floor pan and elevation in the plan section. I have found that people are interested in plans and get excited.
We always carry exemplory plans whenever we do a promotion, such as the Open House we had last weekend. The area of the Kitchen countertop wher we layed out the pans was the most visited area, and spawned the most conversation.
TX,
I've never had anyone say that yet. I ran a full service remodel company for about 15 years before the shell business and hated constantly pushing the customer to select products so I could get it done. I stay busier than a one arm wallpaper hanger at this career and work within 4 miles of my home 90% of the time.
Edited 2/18/2006 4:33 pm ET by shellbuilder
and hated constantly pushing the customer to select products so I could get it done.
I know what you are talking about when it comes to customer responsibilities.
Jusy finished a home and the client took three weeks to pick interior and exterior lockset and deadbolt hardware. I had alerted them two weeks ahead of schedule and they had a selection sheet at the start of construction with phase scheduling. waited the three weeks AFTER we were ready for the hardware reminding them with emails and phone calls.
Then they blamed me for delays.
I did find a good source for hardware through the client (they are know as customers under $250,000.00 and "clients" over $250,000.00) and his internet savy: http://www.betterhomeproducts.com. two locksmiths I klnow looked at a sample product and were impressed.
Also, found a good source for plumbing fixtures, light fixtures and other home decor products http://www.build.com.
Like I said, shell products seem to me to be a great way to go.....if you can avoid the type of pitfalls mentiioned.
where was that web site before i started? great web site. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
It would be nice to be able to get the foundation in and deal with only one person. Here I need an excavator and a concrete sub separately, although they can usually work together pretty well. None of the very few concrete guys here does dirt work, and none of the excavators does concrete. Too bad.
I think a good concrete crew is in demand almost anywhere. If you can provide a service that lets your customer show up at 8 AM and be setting mudsills by 8:15 then you'll have some happy customers.
pro,
up here in northeast OH we have a company that does just that, excavate and then poured walls, and they are making a killing. Great idea, just dont lose quality, thats peoples biggest gripe, doing too much with untrained help. Go for it!
Matt
On my last job, I have used a subcontractor who takes care of the excavation, water & sewer,electrical trench, backfill, slab prep. weeping tile, pits etc...
charges me per square foot of basement. Works like a charm.
I gave him my basement elevation. That was it. saved me a lot of time and aggravation.
Last year he placed around 350 foundations for various general contractors
Vreni
In Maine we have been doing it that way for 40 years. The excavation contractor does all the site work and provides the materials, clearing, utilities, drainage, footings and foundation, slab, driveway, finish grade and lawn. The crews are very experienced and efficient. Generally, it takes about a week to clear the lot, pour the footings and foundation, backfill and grade. Although there may be several companies involved, all fall under the excavators contract. When the framing crew shows up, there is no mud, holes, rocks or access problems.
My biggest carpentry customers are excavation contractors. They have plenty of money and don't even ask for a price. The ones that are doing the best own pits. They make a lot of their money selling the sand, gravel and top soil. One of the small companies that used to do my house foundations now employs 1200. They branched out into road and utility work and are now building interstate highways and pipe lines. These guys are not the exception. Many have gone from small residential work to large commercial projects. Just as many have stayed small and are in constant demand. The other segment that is doing especially well is the equipment dealers. There's good money in dirt and operating the equipment to move it. If I had it to do over, I'd buy a backhoe and a dump truck and save the carpentry for a hobby.
For the last decade or so I've wondered why in this day and time a development company doesn't own all of the necessary subs. I would think that its a more lucrative option to have complete control over each sub, and complete access to all potential profiting within the home construction environment.
The bigger builders, at least in my neck of the woods, don't consider building profitable, unless they can screw the sub's. How would that work out if they did it all in-house? ;)"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Let me see if I understand you correct. The bigger developers screw their subs in order to be profitable. So, do these developers run around putting guns to the subs' heads? And to what degress are these kinds of developers representitive of the whole industry in your area? Do they represent 1/4 of the developers, 1/2?
Since you ask - you don't understand me correct. I was talking about their viewpoint."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Just a minor point - If I understand your correctly, you seem to use the words builder and developer interchangeably or at least assume that the developer also builds the houses. While the national builders most often do their own site development, around here at least, more builders than not buy finished lots from a developer. So, again excluding the Plutes, Centexes, KB Home, etc, the builder of the houses and the developer are as often as not different people.
As far as the screwing of the subs, another example of what happens is that the mega-builder (developer) promises sub-a all the work he can handle for the next x years... and sub-a is paid as little as the mega-builder can possibly get away with. Then, all of a sudden, maybe in January when work is scarce, mega-builder cuts sub-a loose because who-knows why, like maybe subcontractor-b comes in there and says he can do the job for $.05 a sq ft less. Then subcontractor-a doesn't get his 10% retainage on 11 outstanding framing inspections (for example) because sub-b will do the bit of punch work for free just to get the job. Now. all of a sudden, sub-a didn't finish his job and it's his fault that he didn't get his $10k in retainage. So then, sub-a doesn't have work and doesn't get to purchase a badly needed new compressor, transmission for his pickup, and braces for his kid, while mega-builder PM gets another bonus check for $1.5k.
Another aspect of this is that mini-builder who does honest business and pays reasonably well and always promptly potentially has to wait weeks for a sub-b to show up after he said he would be there because mega-builder got 3 more houses ready and always gets priority treatment. Then, extra punch work is performed for mini-builder at a rate of $150 per hour whereas that stuff is done for a pre-negotiated rate of $28 an hour for mega builder since that was part of the contract...
Huck, from my experance, if they screw one sub, they will screw them all! Then they screw their clients. It just becomes part of their business. Then their employees know its just a matter of time for them to get the same screw job. Now tell me how long can a company like that last? When word gets around, lumber yards, various inspectors, other subs, they end up with no clients, no employee's, nobody wants to have anything to do with them. They will go down like a tall timber, as they should. For me, "Word of mouth" carries fare more weight, about a contractor, than anything else.
When building an addition, on to our home, I looked for multy skilled construction compaines. I was never so happy. Progress was smooth, efficient and a cost savings to me. I will always recomend a multi-skilled consturction company. It is becoming the trend to cross train employees for many skilled operations. If you can manage a crew that can do 75% of the required work, does it get any better?.....Pop
When I ran work for an insurance repair contractor, I convinced him to let me switch from a largely sub-based business to a largely in-house operation. Efficiency and customer satisfaction increased, job-time decreased, and profits soared. Run properly, its definitely the way to go. I really think that the reason it isn't done much is the lack of good management to make it work."he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Hucks right.
The big builders do in fact control the pricing that they'll pay and in the process they put a lot of guys out of business, without incurring any of the financial loss that goes along with it. If they had the crews on their payroll, they's be absorbing the losses.
I think your question poses an intriguing question. How many W2 employees does Pulte have for all the billions that they earn? I'll bet the ratio is very interesting, especially when compared to other industries with the same volume of income.
blue
How are these kinds of developers putting subs out of business? Are they making it impossible for those subs to find other business because these kinds of developers are so prolific in presence they dominate the gross majority of the development market (in your area), or are the subs so willing to be abused in this manner they cannot find someone else to work for?
Last time I checked, in my area if a sub get's screwed they simply place a lien on the property. How does a developer resolve this obstacle in your area? If I did a job for a developer and they attempted to renegotiate the terms of contract post-delivery of services, I'd put a lien on their unsold properties as well as those sold during the problem period.
And I certainly would think of continuing a business, as a sub, in a land where its majorically dominated by these kinds of developers. That's just silly.
How are these kinds of developers putting subs out of business?
By paying rates so low that the subcontractor can't possibly be paying their help in a legal way.
are the subs so willing to be abused in this manner...?
They are often too ignorant to know that they are going under till it's long past the time to recover.
Last time I checked, in my area if a sub get's screwed they simply place a lien on the property. How does a developer resolve this obstacle in your area?
There's two ways. 1) the developer puts up a 10% bond in escrow and is allowed to sell the house. The lien placer has up to one year to start the legal proceedings to collect on the lien. That means a trip to court with all the lawyers in tow. 2) When they all show up in the courthouse, the developer presents a laundry list of items that are arguably in need of correction. Since the small guy probably didn't take detailed pictures, notes and has little proof of the quality of his work he loses. If the small guy decides he did a great job, he'll have to pay a lawyer to investigate and prove it.
The entire scene puts the small guy in a world of hurt, especially since he's signed a very long, complicated, boilerplate contract that essentially puts all the responsibility on himself to do the golldarndest things, then subjects himself to arbitration and indemnifys the builder, resolving him of any possible repercussions resulting from the disagreement and prevents the sub from collecting lawyer fees and interest.
Yes, the big developers put the little guys out of business. That's the good ones. The bad ones do worse things.
Basically, if you want to swim with the big fish, you gotta make sure it isn't shark infested waters.
I wouldn't continue serving these kinds of builders either. I had to laugh...I've got a buddy that has managed to survive that last six years with them. He told me that Pulte issued an edict that basically won't allow any rusty trucks or damaged vehichles in their subs. It's a joke because all the laborers are being paid poverty level wages and cant afford anything decent to drive!
My buddy could tell stories all day of the absurdities that he's witnessed and been a part of...
blue
Nuke,
It depends very much on where you are, the mentality of the subs in your area and a whole host of other things.
I've told this story before but it's worth telling again.
I had been traveling over an hour each way to work and my wife was sick of it so I found some work local. Turned out that the guy I was framing for was willing to pay a little extra for a guy who could put up with his way of doing business.
His way of doing business was to drive up, hand you a check for the house you just finished and a "Plan" which was little more than a few photocopies of some marginal drawings. But, he was willing to pay .70 a sqft more than anyone else so we gave it a try.
A few houses down the road and he is having a little trouble with one of his permits so we're gonna have a few weeks with nothing to frame. So, I stop and see a builder whose jobs I pass on the way to the one I'm on. He's got foundations sitting. Some even have sold signs out front. We talk and he does indeed need a framer.
So, I offer to take a plan and get back to him with a price. To which he responds"No need. I pay $2.50 a sqft. Not a penny more. Take it or leave it. I can afford to wait."
And, ya know what. Someone did come along and frame it for $2.50 a sqft. Wasn't me. Problem is, this guy has developments all over the area. He gets guys sucked in with the fact that if you bill him on Tuesday he'll pay you on Thursday. And, thats a big plus because the few guys who would have paid $3.00 or $3.25 at the time expect you to wait up to 90 days for your money in exchange for that awsome sqft price.
Another guy in the area would pay $3.00 a sqft if he was in trouble and needed a frame. But he was slick. He would hold back ALLEGEDLY until the hose was rocked. Then when you went to get your last 10% he would calmly point out how you had cashed a check that said " Final Paymet for Framing Lot # 123" on the bottom of it and politely ask you to leave his office.
When you get a few guys together who treat there subs like that and control a major portion of the work in an area, it's like clubbing baby seals.
For a long time, my father was the number one framer for Pulte Homes in the Tampa Bay area. They controlled damn near everything in the area and they dictated price and payment schedule and a ton of other things.
When I look back on how hard my father worked for what he got, it makes me sick to my stomach.
Good stories Robert. I've got similar stories and it sometimes can make you mad enough to do wicked things to those kinds of builders, like cutting all the wires and pipes in their house after mechanical inspection. I've seen more than one house burned to the foundation....
But the real thing I wanted to discuss is whether it makes more sense to work for 2.75 a foot and get paid promptly, or work for 3.50 a foot and get paid in 90 days.
Without running the numbers, I think I'd rather get the 3.50.
blue
Thats a tough one Blue,
How many guys are really just an old $2500 van and some tools? They can't afford to wait 90 days to get paid, so they work for the $2.75 a foot. they never really save up enough to make that break to the big money and are at the mercy of whoever pays right now.
Lots of people know that and take advantage of it.
Such is the life and business of a framer. Not too many are like Brian with a lift and the company logo on everything. Most are just good framers hoping to make a few bucks more than they were running someone elses crew.
Let me ask you this. How big is your crew and how long would it take you to put up a 2000sqft twostory with a two car garage and a plain gable roof?
Let me ask you this. How big is your crew and how long would it take you to put up a 2000sqft twostory with a two car garage and a plain gable roof
We were doing an easy one occasionally for a builder and it took us 200 hours. I think it was slightly bigger though, maybe 2200.
I've spent three times that if the details warrant it.
For the vast majority of my career, I framed with 4 guys, that's three and myself. That's what we worked with last year.
blue
So, at $3.50 a sq ft thats about $7700 gross.
4 guys at 200 hours, lets call that a long week of 50 hours.
So for the sake of argument lets say you have to helper monkies at $15 per hour. They cost you $20 per hour so they eat up $2000. Then you have a guy who gets $20 per hour and costs $30 per and eats up $1500. Now, you've got $4200 left to pay for the lift, the truck, nails, insurance and tools?
What's left before personal taxes?
and, if you have to wait 90 days for that money, are you paying interst on nails and the gas that went into the generator and the diesel for the lift and on and on and on?
I would figure that the same $2200 Sqft would take me 240 man hours but the last time I framed around these parts it was $2.50 a ft or $3.50 and wait 90 days. Or the one I ended up with $3.20 a foot and put up with a lot of #### but get paid ona regular basis.
I love to frame but the way things are around here, everyone wants 2500sqft with a bastard hip and a great room with true vallies and a thousand little details all for $3,00 a foot,
I used to frame one model for a local builder, 1600 ft, Bastard hip, two gables on the front elevation and a wrap around porch. $4800 for the whole thing and I was getting $500 more than his other two framers.
Edited 2/19/2006 1:46 am ET by robert
Robert, I look at it a little different.
First, let me say that I wouldn't frame it for 3.50 per foot if it cost me that many hours at that rate. I don't remember exactly, but at that time I think we were hitting a target of $55 per hour, so that house would have came in at $11,000.00 and we got paid in a week or so with no draws.
But the real question was: should you work for 3.50 per foot and get paid fast, or 2.75 and get paid slow.
The answer lies in the time value of money.
If you had to borrow that money and had to pay 12% interest, the money would cost you ten cents per foot. That means your net pay would be 3.40 per foot after the cost of financing.
As distasteful it is to wait for your money, it usually makes more financial sense to make more money and get paid later. 30,60,90 and even 120 days is normal business in many industrys.
blue
Blue,
At $5.00 SQFT I would gladly wait for 90 to get paid.
The combination of being beat down to barely making a wage and then being asked to wait for it is just a little too much to stomach so no, I wouldn't wait at $3.20. Then again, I wouldn't frame at $2.70 which is one of the reasons I no longer do.
I used to be amazed that I could storll into a house, act like a total primadonna, It's too cold, I'm not carrying my tools that far, he has to go work somewhere else today or I'm going home, and put in a stair rail where I made $1000 for two days work when the guy who framed it got $6600 to frame the whole damn thing.
Just stopped making sense to me.
Edited 2/19/2006 7:44 am ET by robert
How long ago were you getting those kinds of prices?Does that include siding?Over the past year, we've gotten anywhere from 4.25 to 5.75 for a one story including siding. Hopefully we've got some two-stories coming up at 7.50. The only time we have the option of truly bidding a job is when we are GCing our own stuff. If we don't want to frame it for 4.50 or 5.00, they'll surely find someone who does.
The last one we did for that company was late in the spring of 2004. They are probably still paying quite close to that, but we've got other issues with that company, so we aren't doing any work or service for them till it's resolved. I don't care how much somone pays, you can't let people stomp on you.
blue
This may or may not be interesting, but I pay from $3.50 to $7.00 per SF, and allow the framer to make progress draws each week as needed according to attached schedule.
That's very interesting TXLandlord.
How many hours do your framers take to get a house done? What rate per hour do they achieve?
blue
Blue,
I really do not have time to track their hourly rate, adn it would not be easy. They recently framed / corniced and decked 4700 Sf in three weeks. It was a one story / hip roof / all stucco / multiple height walls 9' - 50% 10' - 40% 12' - 10% / four volume celings. Mechanicals are in and they have a 1/2 day of punch tommorrow.
The house paid $3.50 per SF / $16,450.00 / $5,483.33 per week. They had 4-6 men on the job almost everyday,and when in wall / joist and rafters they had 8 most days.
I myself became a builder by starting as a frame carpenter in 1971.
Years back, when I ran a 4-5 man crew, I figured $1000/day as a rule of thumb. I.E., if a $7000 job took more than 7 days, I was going backwards. Sounds like times haven't changed all that much. I eventually got out of production framing, because it seemed like I went backwards more often than forwards!"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Huck,
$1,000.00 a day probably works here becasue of the South of the Border help. Also, while somewhat large and custom, it is one of the more simpler homes we have built. While I hire the framer, and make sure he is legal, he has employees that are questionable. I do not ask questions.
This is really not production framing, the example is entry level custom framing and $3.50 is far better than production framing avaliable here in the Houston area. We have some homes that reach $7.00 per SF and more. I have three frame crews. The one sited is the fastest. They cut their teeth on production homes, and had to move fast. Now, they are fast and good enough for most my custom work. I let them tell me if there are particulars that would justify a higher pricing.
I have another crew for extreme customs. They are slower but more skilled. The extreme customs may consist of round walls and roofs, floating staircases, volume and complex ceilings such as a dome or dome with barrel vault adjoining at an entry. One home in particular, this framer did, had a floating bridge, bridging two 2nd floor sections. No big deal, except the floating bridge was an S curve . The beams had to be drawn on the floor, jigged up and laminated together using built up 1/4 luan. I think there were 20 layers of 1/4" luan to make up the beams. It turned out beautiful.
The same house had a circular floating stair in a 16' round room, and another floating arc stair at the entry. It had archs and cathedral archs all through the house, in the exterior porches and three rooms with round walls, some exterior. Almost every ceiling was a complex decorative volume ceiling, and there were many double of triple wall niches. I am a former framer and helped my framer set the frame labor and fastners contract at $62,280.00 or $8.65 per SF. The home took 10 weeks, with 2 days of punch. Job done, everybody is happy.
I am fair, and have actual experience with these type homes. (The last major home I framed as a framer / builder was 11,680 SF / two of my frame crews call me Maestro). In discussions, he suggessted $50,000.00. I told him I would not let him do that, a good job and comfortable framer was the goal in this case.
I guess I should have explained "production" framing. I avoided using the word "tract" framing, because these were big, cut-up houses. 3-4000 sq. ft , cut-and-stack with multiple hips, valleys, cripple-hips, skylights, vaulted ceilings, coffered ceilings, sculptural fireplace framing, arches all over the place, niches, plant shelves, "bug-outs", patios, three-car garages, arched entry porticos, etc. Just about everything a custom home has, but production framing prices. Not like custom, where you bid off the plans, but where the builder says "this is what I pay, take it or leave it" (usually about $4-5/sq.ft. labor only). A few weeks to put 'em together, in and out. Production.
"he...never charged nothing for his preaching, and it was worth it, too" - Mark Twain
Edited 2/22/2006 8:13 pm by Huck
Here's the situation up in Canada.
Liens are easy to get--but not worth the paper they are written on.
Anything under 10,000 is small claims... over that it is superior court and you need to pay the lawyer--it's going to be $5000 to get him into the court room.
Like I said--leins are easy to file--you can do that yourself, but it has to be perfected. ie. You have to pay a lawyer $5000 to go to superior court to have it perfected and obtain a judgement. If not... the lien can be stripped as easy as asking. A lien can not be perfected in small claims.
So it's that simple. Under $10,000 go to small claims. Over $10,000 and you may as well kiss it goodbye.
This means that a debt owed a contractor by a developer valued at 10-15,000 is not likely to be persued and they know it. Just not worth the trouble.
Small claims is typically 1/2 the value sought... they cut it in half.
So... regardless, not paying is profitable in Canada.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Sounds like all my lien claims would be for $9,999. :-)
Mine would too--however if they can prove that you lowered it they will throw out the claim.
Here's the majic bullet for the client--all they have to do is intimate that the contractor was paid partially in cash on a certain date--voila--No more case. They throw that out and it cannot be appealed successfully.
Courts here find that they cannot rule on an illegal act. You accepted cash--you were breaking the law.
Friend of mine lost nearly $300,000 that way.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Lawrence, cash is legal tender in Canada, eh?
Why would getting cash be illegal?
Does everyone in Canada have a checking account?
I gotta be missing something here...
blue
Cash denotes "under the table here" and you have a valid point.
Many things don't make sense up here.
Just because you accept a cash payment--doesn't mean you didn't claim it. There is no innocent until proven guilty up here--they assume you are dirty, until you prove otherwise, and that is always hard to prove.
Some ways it is easy to do business up here, some ways it's rough. If you are dirty, ie, illegal alien working for cash, it's easy. You can buy up houses with cash and noone bats an eye.
LGardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Pulte, and the other mega builders, are the Wal Marts of our industry.
Matt
but--few things are as vulnerable to a vexatious little guy who posesses superior intellect...
If we use our heads, we get paid every time.
L
GardenStructure.com~Build for the Art of it!
Back to your Q.... (your welcome....)
I live in Raleigh. Subs here are very busy and I have a lot of trouble getting people to show up when they say they will. I guess they just won't be honest about their schedule because they know if they tell me it will be a month or 6 weeks I will go shop around. Also it's probably that everybody tends to be over optimistic about how long a job will take. Stack up 3 or 4 jobs and.... If it wasn't for this scheduling nightmare, my job as a superintendent would be a LOT easier. So... You stated/asked:
>> What I am thinking about is starting a new company to do everything from site clears and excavation through foundations (block and poured walls, brick veneers etc) for other builders, as a turnkey service. Is this something you would be interested in? <<
Yes, I would be interested, although the next neighborhood I'm starting in will be all cleared with some grading done. They will be slab on grade houses. On that particular project the thing that concerns me is getting the sloping lots graded properly for these slab houses.
Would you pay a small premium for this service? Yes, I would expect to, but it depends on what the size of the premium is.
Have you seen similar services? Not really. We have turn-key bricklayers but I still have to supply the footers, grading, etc. On poured basements, the sub does the final prep excavation, footers, and walls, which would be closer to what you are talking about. When I have a foundation that is all ready for wood - damp/water proofing & drain system in place and backfilled it's a feeling of accomplishment. BTW - for a basement, I guess you would come back and do the backfill after framing starts? What about flatwork - basement & porch slabs? If you did the basement slab, there would likely need to be some coordination with my plumber - not sure how good that would work...
Edited 2/20/2006 7:56 am ET by Matt
Probuilder,
Everyone got off on such a rant that your original topic was lost. I've been meaning to come back to it.
My father works for a company that does someting like your talking about. They specialize in High Density and Assisted Living.
Lets say, you're "Probuilder Development". You have apiece of land, plans, financing and approvals. Problem is, you have no idea and/or capacity to build.
you call this company, lay out what you have. They tell you how much. If you agree, off they go. They manage everything from the site to completion. From there, how and when you get it sold and closed is up to you.
The job will always be "Probuilder Development" You won't see their name anywhere on it and prospective customers will never know they were involved.
From what I understand, this isn't all that uncommon on large scale jobs. They seem to be doing well. He hasn't missed work in over 13 years and he's living fairly well.
If you were in the New York/New Jersey Metro area you would be surprised to know how many things they had built.