Hello,
Last year the prior owners had an elevated deck, 9 feet elevated from the walkout.
it’s 12 x 16 feet and it wobbles laterally…any idea hwta needs to be done to fix this??
relatives won’t walk out on it….
Thanks!
Hello,
Last year the prior owners had an elevated deck, 9 feet elevated from the walkout.
it’s 12 x 16 feet and it wobbles laterally…any idea hwta needs to be done to fix this??
relatives won’t walk out on it….
Thanks!
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Replies
Kin-
Sounds like it needs some diagonal bracing from post to post. I'd run 2x4 from each post base to the top of the next post. Try one side of the posts only, and see if that takes the sway out of the deck. If you need more, add them on the other side of the posts.
And I don't blame the relatives for not wanting to walk on the deck- I've seen them roll over sideways due to a lack of bracing- not a pretty sight.
Bob
Bob,
Thanks for the ideas..wasn't sure if it needed bigger posts or not, but bracing diagonal sounds right!
The posts ar e 4x4 10 footers..suppose the deck was built just too narrow and too high up for the skinny posts...will do the bracing..Thanks!
kin
I'm not disagreeing with Bob, this is the first thing that comes to mind, and may fix the problem. But like your relatives a swaying deck raising a red safety flag as it well should. For the sake of safety, please have a trained professional (either a qualified carpenter or an engineer) design the problem out of your deck. Their are many causes and many simple solutions to the situation you describe. You need to know that the solution you choose is the best and most structurally sound fix.
Short of having someone do an inspection you should give a full description here of how the deck is built. Starting with the post size and placement. The beam size and placement over the post. The joist size and placement. The decking material size and placement , and attachment hardware and locations (ie. joist hangars and rim joist against house). This information in the hands of the people here would result in a solution to your problem that would allow many safe barbecues.
Someone here will help!
Thanks for the specifics.
Deck is cedar with only treated house wall ledger, using joist hangars. the floor 16" on center joists go from the house out over the end beam, each joist is attached with what looks to be an angled half turned metal bracket at each joist.
end beam which is a 2x 8 - then post sandwiched between the other side 2x8 cedar.
It protrudes from the house wall 16'
Width of deck (ledger board is 12') x 10"
There are two end posts supporting the beam as described above...posts are 4x4 cedar and about 10' tall.
At the end of the deck is a switch back stairs which consists of a lower 6x6 deck supported by 4 posts, each also 4x4 cedar posts.
The posts are purportedly sunk 3 feet down for central MN winter weather.
Hope this was clear?
Thank you!
Kin
The advice to have it looked at appears well founded.
How is it attched to the house? 12' is is a longer span then I like to see between posts.
And I doubt 36" footings are deep enough in MN. I'm in central IA and it's 42" here
The list can go on. And I would keep the children off until it's fixed.
good luck to you
View Image
Barry E
Barry,
Thank you for the suggestions!
Kin
It protrudes from the house wall 16'
Width of deck (ledger board is 12') x 10"
There are two end posts supporting the beam as described above...posts are 4x4 cedar and about 10' tall.
I am currently building a 20' (along house) x 16' x 8' high. Using 6x6 posts notched each side w/ 2x12 on each side to support 2x12 joist. Joist hangers & hurricane hangers. My posts are 8' apart set on 2'x2' x 1' footings dug to below the frost line (here 24").
Frost line in Mich. is 4'... that may be part of ur propb.
It is starting to sound more like it bounces up and down as much as it wobbles back and forth.
'Bounce' and 'wobble' are, of course, highly technical terms needing a certain amont of definition which I will attampt to provide,
Bounce is most clearly demonstrated by a basketball. These round devices are designed to store energy and return it in the direction from whence it came, generally in a vertical alignment - up - down - up - down - up - down - up - down...
If your deck moves up and down, it is a similar energy storage device like a trampoline or a basketball.
Wobble is more closely related to the erratic movements of a football when not directed to rotate on it's axis. It can be seen after a fumble when players from both teams often can be seen suddenly reversing their directions in midstride. Wobble is sometimes confused with wiggle but can readilly recognized by it's horizontal movement.
Sometimes these terms can have political implications. Many politicians havebeen known to wobble on the issues, going back and forth from one point of view to another without actually going anyplace. If they wander too far in any one direction, they fear falling down - as could happen to a deck with too much wobble. Other poiticians are more fortunate and circumstances align to benefit them. They then experience a 'bounce' in the polls. They are very good at taking credit for things. Your son sounds like a budding poltician, taking credit for the bounce in the deck.
As we probe more deeply into the case you present, (I hope you are having as much fun with this as I am) It seems that the end beam on which the entire deck is placed is only two 2x8s that span 12'. For the deck size you have, I would prefer to see at least three 2x12 in that position. I don't see whether you have mentioned the sizes of the joists that land on that beam, only that they are sixteen feet long. For that span, they should be 2x12 or 2x10, depending on whether you are in snow country and what the local requirements for decks are. Since they only used 2x8s for the beam, I would suppose that they used 2x8 or 2x6 for the joists.
In some jurisdictions, if they built the deck with no permit or inspection, you may have recourse against them.
Here is another concern, It is fine and advisable to build the framing out of pressure treated lumberto prevent rot but it is not advisale for the young one to play on it if the surface deck is also PT.
If the deck is as I understand it to be, you will probably want to add at least one 2x12 to the end beam to stiffen it over the posts and then shorten the span of the joists by adding another pair of posts and similar beam at or near the midspan. This will take care of the up-down movement. In the process, some diagonal braces called kickers or knees should be added from post to beam. This will work to prevent sway and wobble..
Excellence is its own reward!
Wobble is sometimes confused with wiggle but can readilly recognized by it's horizontal movement.
Careful, Piffin. This isa family site {G}_______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Diagonal kickers like bob suggested is the most likely solution but sizing and locating them can have a lot of variables. There could be other reasons why the deck wobbbbbbblllles too though, so an on-site guy would do you best or if you could post pictures here, we could chew on it and digest it for you, then regurgitate some advice that a newborn chick could handle.
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks......can't post a picture yet...but hopefully the specifications will help get an idea to figure out a recipe for this thing.
I bought this house (built in 1999) and the deck is just a year or so old, last Fall and without a spouse anymore to size things up, it was the best I could do.My seven year old actually noticed it first as he was running up and down the stairs and said,..wow....I must be getting pretty heavy..it moved!
Kin
Keep in mind if the deck builder screwed the bracing up, he/she probably screwed some other key stuff up too, and there's no way to explore the whole thing here.
Get a framing contractor or professional deck builder out to take a look for other major problems which could cause serious injuries._______________________
"I may have said the same thing before... But my explanation, I am sure, will always be different." Oscar Wilde
Everyone has made good points. My only additional thought is that if it's inconvenient to brace the verticles, you might be able to put the diagonal bracing across the bottom of the joinsts.
It doesn't matter how fast you get there, it just matters that you go in the right direction.
If you do get it solidified, I'm not sure I'd tell anyone. Anything that keeps relatives away is okay by me.
Good point Hasbeen- Diagonals under the deck should take out all the side to side movement.10' is to high for 4x4 posts. You will get deflection,bending moment,from the posts. You can try to stabilize them with 4x4 diagonal knee braces.
Is the ledger bolted to the house?I would be more concerned with this deck pulling from the house than the bounce.
Please check it out and be safe.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Nice pictures!
I saw that 2x4 bracing underneath the deck, on the joist underside, to stiffen it up - how do you set that up with 2 beams? The deck I'm working on- I'm going off a cantilevered overhang, so I have a beam at 2' out, and another at 12' out - just a "W" pattern in between the two beams? At the same time, it looks like you lagged the diagonal beam to post bracing - with a built up 2x beam, would the 1/2 lag into the 2 members of the beam weaken them (asumming a few inches penetration. . .)? I've always wondered what a lag bolt does to the wood strength of 2x when bolted into the narrow of the board. . .
I would thru bolt a rabbited 4x4 knee brace if I was using a double 2x beam. I would also notch the post the 2X beams rest on so all the weight of the deck is not just shear weight on the bolts.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
To be truthful with you it sounds as though the whole thing is underbuilt and badly engineered. I would have used three 6"x6" posts for that installationand would have strongly reccomended a wider dimension along the wall for such a long projection. What you are describing would not have passed code here. Get professional advice from someone local ... but be prepared to hear that you might be best off to take it down and start anew.
I just found the receipt from the small town builder out this way....maybe I should call them and see if they will fix their "craftsmanship"? Doesn't city code say it has to pass an inspection or something for an elevated deck?
This is just so sad and disappointing..every last dollar went into this home for my child and I and now we have a useless deck being more of a risk than an asset....booo! :(
Would a city building inspector come out and check it as passable and then contact the builder?
Kin
That varies from one place to another.
In some places, the inspector might just condemn it and let you chase the builder or a new one in the courts to seek resolution which takes time. Meanwhile you would be out the useage and cost of the deck..
Excellence is its own reward!
The inspector is unlikely to force the builder to do anything about it. I also do not reccommend that you let that builder do anything to your property ... ever! There is some possibility of recouping some kind of settlement from the property sellers. Do you have a homeowners warranty? Lots of builders are providing them now and when I bought an older house recently the seller included one. If you bought it through a real estate broker (or agent) they might be worth contacting about the situation. They may be able to advise you or to intercede with the sellers for you. reputable folks will at least be concerned, and they might be helpful.
One more thought; ask around amongst coworkers relatives friends etcetera for the name of a reputable deck builder in the area. Then call and honestly explain your situation and ask if he might find a bit of time to come over and take a look and tell you what he thinks. If he agrees to come over put on a pot of coffee and get a couple of cookies or some such (preferably homemade) and make him feel welcomed. Then let him look the deck over and think about it and when he starts talking listen closely. You'll have to take it from there but this might at least get you in touch with someone that has the ability to help and may be an asset for you in many instances while you are a homeowner in the area.
Hello, Well thanks again for all the suggestions form tis forum.
The deck construction builder is coming monday to "see" what is the problem..seems he doesn't quite believe me that it needs fixing as he said, "well, the city inspector passed it"
I measured the deck and found this.
It's 12' wide from the house jutting out 16'
At the end is the stairs, about 6 of them that attach to a lower level platform , which is 6' x 8' and then switch back sairs to the ground.
The deck joists are 16" on center and actually are 2 x 10"? they measure out as a bit over 9" wide.
The ledger board is bolted and screwed to the house, joist hangars. When i look from below it seems that each 2x10 joist is a good 1" away from touching the ledger board, so it seems they are held only by the nails into the hangars..they also don't fully rest on this lip of the hangar..is that normal?
The beam is two 2x12's but they are separated by the 4x4 post between them,
there are three posts that attach the beam..but each post is 4x4 and there is about 9' of post showing above ground. Builder says they were set at 48" deep on concrete.
With the joists not actually touching the ledger board thing, is this about to pull away soon?
I closed the deck off as sson as you suggested it was a risk.
thanks,
Kin
If I read your posts correctly, the beams are cedar. SYP would have been a better choice. Cedar might not neet the current building codes, but it is difficult to say from here.
In any case it appears that you have some serious repairs to do.
The joists need to be brought back against the ledger board. Some type of bracing is necessary to control the movement of the supporting posts.
I would suggest paying a professional to come on site and help with deciding what to do.
Frequently the ledger board is gapped away from the house to allow for drainage, but the joists should be fully seated into the metal hangers. So he claims to have bought 13+ ft 4x4's...want to bet they're 10 ft with 12" or so in the ground?
The beam is two 2x12's but they are separated by the 4x4 post between them, Not a problem, some builders always build this way. But...how are the 2x12's fastened to the 4x4?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Good point! they should be notched in and lagged or bolted..
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks for the update and good on you for getting him to come back. You must have fine powers of persuasion or he is a stand up guy - or both. Let's hope for the best here. my previous attempt at humour included some pertinent information that still applies
As you have described the structure it might be (barely) sound as far as the layout design goes. sizes and layout are minimally OK but that's without knowing exactly what lumber is used for the framing - whether it is treated SYP or cedar. And we donn't know what the required design load for decks is in your locale. I used 40#/sf to check calcs. Snow country needs much more. If you are in snow country, the deck is way under-designed.
Here's the redflag for me to say bring up with him. It is that the joists are an inch away from contact with the ledger. That is a definite no-no. They are not far from falling out from the supporting hangers altogether. take a picture of this for your own documentation and to share with us here if possible.
The question then is whether he installed the joists that way or whether they have moved and pulled away.
If the deck is understructured for the load because of undersized joists, it would have bounce that could work the ends of those joists up and down to cause them to walk away from the ledger.
If the joists were installed sloppy with that gap, that could account for bounce or wobble that would in turn worsen the condition.
If the vertical supporting posts have no diagonal kickers, they could allow induced sway that could aggravate the above and contribute to the joists pulling further away from the house.
There may be other factors less obvious to you that contribute. You have done well with your descriptive facts though.
Based on the information I have now, I see the following repairs needed:
Diagonal braces (kickers) must be added to the posts at the beam end to stabilize and reduce sway in all directions.
The end of the deck close to the ledger needs to be stabilized and supported. That could possibly be done by pulling the deck into full contact and well fastened there. I tend to think that if design space allows, there is a better solution or two to consider here.
A> Add another ledger doubled under the existing that will support the ends of the joists and connect the joists to the ledger with A-35s to keep them from further movement
B> set another three posts and a beam a foot or two away from the house to set under the joists and let them bear directly down on it. This post and beam should also be stabilized with diagonal kickers.
Another thing to be considered is adding another 2x12 to the existing beam design..
Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks to everyone who made suggestions.
It is very well appreciated....I am sure the builder will not be pleased but Iwill show him the parts of these threads that outline what could be the problem.
Kin
See if you can call the city to see what permits were taken out on your house and verify that the deck did hare a permit, in my area anything one foot from the ground requires one. This will tell you if this contractor is blowing smoke your way and could be come a bargaining chip. I would not have him fix it though have him pay for the repairs. I bet NO PERMIT was pulled.
It does not sound correct there should be more posts the beam,should be larger, the post should not be set in the ground but on a concrete peir raised above the soil. You also may be able to go back on the pervious owners if they did have it built knowing that a permit was not pulled or knew it was a problem, and they signed a disclosure document stating there were no known defects with the house.
Also FHB did an article on deck failure a bit ago I believe.
Edited 4/14/2003 1:22:13 AM ET by wally
> When i look from below it seems that each 2x10 joist is a good 1" away from touching the ledger board, so it seems they are held only by the nails into the hangars..they also don't fully rest on this lip of the hangar..is that normal?
Definitely not normal. Can you take a closer look? Are the faces of the hangers against the ledger board nice and flat, or do they look bent and pulled out? Are the nails holding the hangers to the ledger pulling out at all? Are there nails in the other direction, thru the hangers and into the sides of the joists? These should be fat, stubby little nails about an inch and a half long. Are they there? If so, do they go in straight or angle slightly toward the house? Or do they look like the ends of the joists are getting ripped out of the hangers? Are the gaps the same all the way across the deck?
The possibilities I'm trying to separate here are that it was either built wrong and staying the way it is, or built wrong and in the process of coming apart.
-- J.S.
Thanks..
I relooked at it as you suggested. I do trust the professionals on Fine homebuilding.com :)
The faces of the hangars are flush to the ledger. Each has every hole filled with a short stubby joist hangar nail. The nails all look like they are pretty straight forward in and not angled.
The gap betwen the ledger and the joists are all toward the bottom where they are an inch apart from the ledger. I could gently slide 1/4 of my finger between the bottom of the joist and the ledger board, where there is an opening cut out in the joist hangar. I assume that cut-out is for water drainage?..Anyways, it fit snugly but I broke a nail in the process...damn.
The tops of the joists look like they are actually touching the ledger board.
Hmmmm...since there are these spaces only at the bottom, as if the deck over the winter may have lifted upward at the end where it's supported on those silly almost 10' length showing,4x4 skinny cedar posts. It sure looks level now though.
Thanks again for the input!
Kin
This is sounding a lot less scary now. At least we know that it's staying together the way it was built.
If the joists had started out snug to the ledger and the one inch gap at the bottom were caused by lifting the outboard end, the lift required to cause that would be about 21" at a distance of 16' from the house. That amount of frost heave would be kinda difficult not to notice, so I think we can conclude that your deck builder deliberately cut the ends of the joists at an angle. I don't know why, but I'm not a cold country guy. Perhaps others here can think of reasons for doing that.
In trim carpentry, we sometimes cut things just very slightly out of square to make the edge that shows fit nice and snug, but one inch in a run of 9" is way more than that. And the tops of the joists against the ledger aren't an appearance issue....
-- J.S.
John,
I can think of something that would cause the joists to not seat properly like that.
Let's assume that he cut them square and that the deck is more or less level.
There is only one thing that could account for the joists not fitting at the bottom.
The ledger is not plumb. That raises the question of whether or not it was set plumb to begin with or if it is pulling away from the house at the top.
Kin, It doesn't sound like they want to fix this for you. The grumbling sounds I can interpret for you but this is a family channel
;)
And don't assume that every one here is a professional - or that any deck built in the big city area is well built either. Garage building and deck building attract a fair share of shysters and losers
No offense to you guys reading who do it right.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
And don't assume that every one here is a professional Very true. The best you can say is that everyone here has an opinion, and all have experience at something. Hypothetically speaking, of course, ProDeck could have absolutely no experience in building decks, other than what he reads in TOH, and he just uses that name because it sounds neat. This is one of the weak points of the internet.
What Kin can take from here that is useful, is when several different contributoirs agree on the same idea or conclusion. Or maybe someone makes a comment that sparks an idea or sheds light on an unclear subject.
Do it right, or do it twice.
Actually, I think this is one of few threads with a great preponderance of good and thoughtfull advice. We are only handicapped by not being able to see it and walk on it..
Excellence is its own reward!
Oh, I agree. This is a great discussion...no nasty words or hurt feelings, etc, just good detective work and well intentioned folks. I just wanted to point out that there's no way to tell the qualifications of any of us.
Do it right, or do it twice.
> There is only one thing that could account for the joists not fitting at the bottom.
> The ledger is not plumb. That raises the question of whether or not it was set plumb to begin with or if it is pulling away from the house at the top.
Good point. And if the ledger is way out of plumb, we're back to a very scary condition again. Kin described the ledger as "bolted and screwed to the house", which is a good sign if it was done right.. But groping through a text discussion, we really don't know what is and isn't plumb, level, and square. A few pictures would help so much.
Kin -- Do you have a level? Can you check if the face of the ledger is vertical or leaning out at the top? Could you use something like the corner of a magazine to check if the joists are square to the ledger?
I'm still wondering if this builder had a reason to cut the joists at an angle.
-- J.S.
The builder may have carelessly placed the ledger tight to the siding and that kicked it out of plumb but there is an equall chance that he missed hitting any studs or other framing with the lags and they are pulling loose and allowing the bevel to set in..
Excellence is its own reward!
deck building attract a fair share of shysters and losers
There ya go picking on me again.........:-0Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
You know who you are!
;)
But as long as I'm picking, did you know who get the you know what?.
Excellence is its own reward!
Sorry, I don't know who got the you know what? Would it have to do about posting you know what in to much frequency and too many people put you know who on ignore and taunton got tired of you know who talking to himself too way long in a one sided conversation? :-)Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
coleman drill.
Excellence is its own reward!
LOL-Wow? I was way off. He still hasn't been over to get it. I think I'll just take a day and take it out to him.Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
ship it if you want to save the trip and bill me..
Excellence is its own reward!
That's OK, I want to see his new accomodations anyway.The only bad part about that is i'll get my truck all dirty on his long dirt road. :-)
Bob
"Rather be a hammer than a nail"
Edited 4/29/2003 10:26:26 PM ET by Pro-Dek
What happened? Do it right, or do it twice.
I read this thread. I didn't study the design description very carefully because right away I saw a basic problem. Around here (and I'm pretty sure in general) post have to be 6X6 if they are more than 6' long. You can play with the bracing, but given the length and width of the deck you have to go bigger on the posts. I've done decks 20' up, but I used 6X6 posts and they were braced by a walkway at 10'. I see decks alot that only have 4x4s for posts. Generally they are smaller decks, 10x12, and if I was building them they would still have 6X6 posts. 4X4 are jsut a little too flimsy IMHO. People use the ledger to fool themselves into thinking that the posts are stiff enough. Unless the joists are cantilevered,(extend 2/3 into the house) in which caser the posts would be there too stffen the structure without actually supporting it.
Tank you Patrick for the reply.
I have 6 opinions now that should convince the builder to fix it at his cost.
Much appreciated!
Kin
With regard to your comment of having 6 opions to show your builder ...
If I were your builder and you showed me this stuff, I would put you on the ground.
The builder had an obligation to the prior owner who he built for. He has no obligation to you.
Regardless of if we are right or wrong your builder was on the site and the work has passed inspection. That gives him a lot more credibility then we have.
Understood, makes sense...I will defer other's opinions and just hope he decides to be a straight up gentleman and fix it right.
thanks.
I will agree with you that if I were a builder going back on a recall situation, the last thing I want to hear is about a bunch of yahoos with names like, "piffin" from some internet site. I have had to laugh and cry over some of the advice I have seen on some other sites so overall, I would not be impressed.
But I disagree that he has no following responsibility. If that deck crashes to the ground with a few people on it, and there is proof that he built it, and that he was offered to opportunity to correct defective work, he dang sure better have mighty good liability insurance! Liability for negligence does not end with change of owners.
Myself, I would welcome the chance to go back, see what is wrong, and if it were something I was responsible for, fix it with a smile. that always generates more work for the same person or a neighbor or friend. Cheap advertising and cheap insurance.
Now if I were the owner now, I would point to what I believe were flaws in the work and ask, What about this? and Can this be part of the problem? or how can we stop this from happening? That let's him responmd and save facce without dealing with the emotional issue of feeling like he is being attacked.
There is a 50/50 chance that she won't get the full treatment or best results because, let's face it, he is inspecting his own work and the cash might be out of his own pocket, depending on what they negotiate.
A stronger question could be, "May I have your insurance information, just in case the deck collapses and hurts somebody?" There is a hint implied there that even the dense should notice.
It all depends on his attitude. And if he even shows up.
.
Excellence is its own reward!
Hey Kin, it's end-of-Tuesday...what happened when the builder made the scene?
Do it right, or do it twice.
Hi,
I was getting out of the shower when he and his partner came early Monday morning. I could hear them grumbling as the bathroom window was open a bit..they were gone when I came out. Bet they weren't there looking at the deck for more than 3 minutes. One of them walked up the stairs and then down pretty quickly.
I have to call them tomorrow from work since they haven't left a message here.
Still hard to believe the city inspector passed the blueprints as being acceptable.
I live in a town of 5,000 pop. an hour from the Twin Cities...maybe they do things much differently out here than from what I have been accustomed to in the suburbs.
This same house, if it was 40 miles west toward the Cities would cost 40-50 thousand more....but at least I bet the elevated decks are built right :)
i will post the results as soon as I hear from them. It might save someone else from the nightmare down the road when building a deck like this.
Kin
Kin, I'm a very late comer to your situation but I may be able to shed some light because I live in the cities and know the Mn. code. I don't know if you said what size the joists are or not I assume they are 2x10 because you mention a 2x10 ledger. You also said only the ledger was treated. Are the joists treated, cedar or standard SPF grade lumber? Code says they must be rot resistant. This means treated of cedar.
Your footings must be at least 42" deep could be 48" if you are far enough north.
Your deck needs to support a total load of 55# per sq. ft. according to state code. (this would be the UBC at the time your deck was built. We just changed to the IRC this past Apr. 1) The 2x8 beam on the outside edge of the deck then must support 5280# which is half of the total load on the deck. The double 2x8 beam is not heavy enough to support the design load. The 4x4 posts should have been 6x6.
Your deck should have at least one treated 2x4 running diagonally from bottom of ledger to the outside beam and nailed with 2- 16d nails into each joist it crosses. This brace will eliminate the sway.
I tried to scan all the posts in the thread, so forgive me if I've missed sometn;ing I should have read and known.
I don't think you mentioned the attachment of the ledger to the house. You should have 2, 1/2" lag screws every 16" through the ledger into the house rim joist 4" to 4 1/2" long. Did they put any flashing between the house and the ledger? or just attach the ledger over the siding?
Hope this isn't too late to be of some help. e-mail me if you need more info.
Hey tick, any chance you could drive over to see the deck and report back? How about a digital camera?
Do it right, or do it twice.