Re: New driveway blues
Hello everyone. I’m a beginner.
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I’m building a house in mid-coast <!—-> <!—-><!—->Maine<!—-> <!—-> that needs a half-mile long driveway.
There are lots of technical issues (water, inclines, an existing driveway for half the distance with a center hump that causes every car to bottom out, and plenty of ledge in exactly the wrong spot.
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The excavator is confident that he can solve the problems, and I have confidence in him, but we disagree on aesthetics. I don’t want an asphalt driveway even though plowing snow is a fact of life here. I want something that will be stable and level for a long time, but looks like a seldom-used country lane. Is there any way to use contemporary materials and techniques to get the performance I need without having a driveway that looks new?
Replies
I don't have an answer, but maybe you be a little more specific about what you mean by looking like a "seldom-used country lane"? You want something with two tracks? Something with grass and weeds growing up in the middle of it? Something that isn't a stark black color like fresh asphalt? Pavers rather than something monolithic?
I know on country roads where I used to live in Illinois, there were different types of road surfaces, for example:
-- dirt (usually very rutted after less than a year)
-- gravel (very dusty, and often with pot-holes underneath the gravel)
-- oiled gravel (less dusty, but murder on car finishes for a couple of weeks after the oil was poured)
-- "hard top". I don't know what all was in this, mostly aggregate with some kind of binder, but it was lighter in color and considerably more durable than asphalt. I don't think it had cement in it like concrete. It was/is used for rural highways, and involved proper roadbed preparation and compacting of the road surface with a roller machine of some kind.
-- asphalt (applications varied, and some were more durable and better looking than others. When not well done, prone to pot holes)
-- concrete (typically for US highways and Interstates, probably not what you have in mind).
Other ideas that come to mind:
-- I don't remember where I saw it, but there are companies that make products for example for parking lots where the grass can grow up through it, but the material (kind of a lattice, with drainage material underneath it) stays level and supports a lot of weight
-- pavers (I would think this would be very expensive for a 1/2-mile driveway, and you would have to do very careful ground prep)
Maybe someone else can give you some better ideas.
Rebeccah
Fluffy - You want it all, it seems.
Okay. Try either cobblestones or used brick as a surface. Either one looks great. It's just going to cost you a bunch of money. Maybe try getting imprinted concrete - that may cost a little less.
Don't waste time with gravel, unless you set it into something. By nest spring, it will all need to be regraded (and half will need to be replaced).
I think your contractor is being honest in terms of what's realistic. Good luck in your search.
Don K.
Being the proud owner of a quarter mile of gravel driveway, I can tell you first hand that you'll need to maintain it regularly. The initial construction is key, and the big issues are compaction, competent subsoils, and drainage. You will lose stone every time you plow snow. That's just a fact of life. If you can live with that, gravel is fine. If you can't, you need to pave. It's really that simple.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
Never try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the pig.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
Fluff,
I have a similar situation and have yet to pull the trigger on any of the otpions available. Mine is not quite as long, but 1/4 mi with a good grade in heavy shade, regular winter snow removal.
The options that we have looked at so far, stamped concrete (by far the most expensive), stamped asphalt, tar & pea gravel or the McAdam method (our favorite, though hard to find in this area) and just plain blacktop.
The McAdam (sp?) is probably most likely what you are looking for. Basically a standard light road bed (6" base rock, 2-4" road rock w/o fines)and a thick coat of paving tar with some sort of small stone, spread and rolled into the surface.
Fluffy,
Greetings from Mid Coast to SoPo.
ahh Maine, Hard Pac grey, or try the old logging road trick and spray used motor oil on your compacted small stone gravel.
For the country lane look just keep driving in the same spot in the woods until you can call it a lane... maybe an occasional york rake would help.
-zen
You have it right.http://www.larrytorti.com/meetmacadam.htm
Fluffy where are you- I am in Edgecomb and can give you some names of good excavation contractors if you need
I've seen quite a few gravel driveways in certain parts of Maine that have used a local source of what I'd call "slate gravel". Not as dusty as the logging roads. It's small, flat and irregular shape keeps it from moving around as much as typical angular gravel might. Expect some regular maintenance, how much will depend on your site slopes, etc. I have no idea if you are from the area but the best advice I can give you is to take a ride around your area and see what the locals are using that can meet your needs. The Mainer's have learned thru years of experience what will and won't work under local conditions.
First thing is to compact the base. Use a sheep’s foot roller and make a few passes.
My suggestion would be to use recycled asphalt. Don't put down a weed barrier before the asphalt, so that you can get the grass to grow up naturally. It will give you a stiff driveway if it is finished on a hot day with a smooth drum vibrating roller. The stuff is just ground up pavement. It is little sticky, particularly when hot. It finishes hard and works well in Colorado, where we plow often. Then, just let it grow.
Hunnerd is on to something.
You can buy this recycled material by many names, I think in your area it might be known as con-palt. It turns back into something that is pretty stable even in your climate. It's used regularly for driveways in Southern Maine, that I do know. It's got enough asphalt in it that it packs down tight.
Don't use straight recycled concrete though -- it really doesn't work.
There are a number of plastic grids on the market, one is called Grassy Pavers, you lay them down like tiles and fill them with gravel. The manufacturer assures me that they can be plowed without damage, I don't believe it. I haven't seen a plastic yet that holds up to Maine winters.
Besides, concrete would be cheaper than installing plastic tiles.
Anyway, to your question; why not a subgrade of conphalt topped with a state-spec base course or even better a screened 1-inch minus pit run gravel? A thin layer could be dump-spread off the back of a truck, you get the aesthetic you want over a stable subgrade, and you can replenish it cheap as needed.
Fluffy
You may want to look into open concrete pavers. They have holes in the middle that will allow for either gravel or plants. You could grow some sort of sedges or short native grasses that will give you a less traveled look.
I did a google under Green Driveways, open concrete pavers etc.
You know when you were about 1yo you decided you didn't want babyfood anymore. You said, 'NONONO' to jarred applesauce.
Well, what DID I want?
Leberwurst on ryebread.
HA, even as a baby I was a gourmet!
I've said it before here on BT, but it's worth repeating:
You've probably heard the expression before that the 3 most important things in real estate are location, location, and location. Similarly, the 3 most important things in drivways are drainage, drainage, and drainage.
Look at any potholes or bad spots in any road, and you'll see that water doesn't drain well at that location. Get the water off the road and it will hold up much better.
.
Why not start out with gravel? Put down a solid compacted base. (your excavator should know how to do that) Then pack each layer down so you have a good base to start with.
You can always put asphalt over the top of gravel if you decide you don't like it. But going the other way isn't quite so easy.
As an alternative, how about trying gravel, then oiling it? Your excavator should know someone in the area who will prime the drive, top coat it, then spread chips to keep it from picking up. (It takes 2 coats of oil the first time)
BTW - Road oil isn't just used motor oil. Dumping used oil on the ground is illegal and folish.
Fluffy:
You should concern yourself with 3 topics: surface water, groundwater, and good gravel base.
Our 700 ft. drive in central NH was a road abandoned in the 1920's. It features grades from about 7% to 12%. We hired a contractor to clear, rough-grade the road, and fill erosion developed pockets. He diverted the water into swales every 125 ' or so.
Then I bought a woven geotextile to separate the native sand subgrade from the 4-inches of 1.5" crushed gravel we placed upon it. Typical width for most geotextile rolls is 12.5 ft. We tucked it in to 10'.
After logging (i.e. multiple 3 axle 50-ft. trailers) a forested 7-8 acre area that is now pasture, my sitework contractor neighbor is still amazed at the durability and overall cost-effectiveness of installing the woven geotextile. About 3x/ year, I use a 7ft. wide landscape rake on a Kubota tractor to re-dress the drive surface. Even after this Saturday's rain (that severely damaged a 150 yr+ stone arch bridge done the road), the drive looks the same.
I should note that when our U/G electric service was installed along a significant drive length (by that same contractor neighbor), we also put a 4-inch dia. Hancor perforated polyethylene drain with a KNIT filter sock - it drains about 350 days/year. (get the knit sock - NOT the spunbound sock).
Good luck and ask neighbors who'd they'd hire (professional reputation is invaluable).
Good point mentioning the geotextile.I use quite a bit of it in my work, where the use of this material is indicated, there is nothing like it.You mentioned segregation, that is one purpose. If there is any risk of driving the base course into the subgrade it's money well spent.The other thing that geotextile fabric does is dramatically increase the load carrying capacity of the subgrade (it's about shear strength.)I have seen documentation that equates a layer of geotextile with a foot of base course in certain circumstances.I agree -- if segregation, moisture, or load bearing are a concern it's the best money you can spend.
Thank you all for a comprehensive set of solutions for my new driveway blues.
The excavator has proposed swales and culverts that will lead surface water from the high side to the low side, removal of existing asphalt, investitgation of existing base for use or removal, 15" of 6" minus gravel, and 3" of 1" minus gravel.
Since there seems to be plenty of dissatisfaction about plowing and maintaining a gravel driveway, I've sent the excavator your ideas about reclaimed asphalt, polypavement, and the Unpaved Roads BMP Manual. I am also intrigued by geotextile.
Polypavement seems cheaper than reclaimed asphalt, geotextile seems like a miracle product for preventing ruts and depressions caused by surface pressure. How should I rank order these ideas given a limited budget? Geotextile and polypavement? Reclaimed asphalt alone? I'd like to hear your opinions and experiences.
It terms of segregation, you can't beat geotextile. If segregation is going to be a problem, you are way ahead on the long-term budget to just put it in now.As for shear strength, a layer of geotextile is easily worth a foot of base course. Just get your local prices and do the math, you will find the answer that is right for you.For example, 8" of base course might be $0.55 delivered and you might be another $0.35 rolling and blading. So $0.90 per sf.Geotextile might be $0.55 per square yard, that's about $0.06 per sf.Even if it costs a day or two of labor to put it down, you are still so far ahead on the money and the long-term durability, you can't go wrong.Just get the fabric deep enough that it isn't plowed up.
I'd like to hear your opinions and experiences.
OK. I'm just finishing a new driveway for a client. Goes 1/4-1/3 mile up a mountain, only one soft spot. The soft spot got one truckload (20 tons) of 3" washed stone. The whole driveway will be recycled asphalt, which you said you didn't like. We have snow, and plowing happens here too, if infrequently.
After dealing with the grindings, which cost slightly less than crushed stone here, I'm going to put several hundred tons on my 1/2 mile driveway, also up a mountain (no soft spots). We have no particular problems, but occasionally somebody who doesn't quite know how to drive will dig holes spinning tires. The asphalt greatly reduces this. And there's a world of difference in snow removal.
Water, of course, is the first priority. After that you need to support the traffic load, fabric can be very cost effective if you don't have something firm underneath. Would do nothing for us. Each situation needs to be addressed individually, especially if cost is a factor. How soft is soft? Hard to say from here.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Does recycled asphalt look the same as new asphalt? It's that black shiny ribbon that I want to avoid.
Not unless you roll it, but it doesn't look like crushed stone here either. It's black. I'll try to remember to take a pic next week. Unless your budget trumps your aesthetics, you'd probably do better with something else. Gravelpave is very interesting, not price competitive, but cheaper than pavers.
No idea of price or availability for you, but here grindings give great utility. It's all that's going on the new driveway. When construction's finished we'll go over it again to level it out.
Client used grindings to surface the small subdivision streets below his current project. Very poor layout that had major erosion problems. Not after applying the grindings.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
I don't know what grindings are - help!
Sorry- ground up asphalt. Still talking about the same thing, recycled asphalt, using local terminology.
My understanding is that concrete sometimes undergoes the same fate (grinding into small pieces), but not around here.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Fluffy:
A few material items:
gravel can be either bank-run or screened to remove fines (silt particles) or over-size (cobbles).
crushed gravel if processed thru a crusher - adds strength (that's what we placed on our drive), more erosion resistant than gravel, frost will freeze surface so that your plow will "ride on top".
crushed stone is usually processed to be a consistent particle size; usually doesn't freeze up hard - so the snowplow will push and drag this everywhere, as others have mentioned; tends to roll out under tire tread- kinda like marbles; (However, I spread 3/4" crushed stone on our parking "pad" up to the porch so we don't track in sand from the crushed gravel).
crusher run stone has a wider gradation of particle size to bind up better.
recyled asphalt (i.e RAP) can be pricey.
in general, angular particle shape is stronger than rounded; larger particle size is stronger; a well-graded particle distribution compacts tighter and adds strength.
wet zones in your subgrade should be drained where they are encountered - I suspect your site contractor would place large crushed stone wrapped in a geotextile (called "French Drain" by some).
make sure the drive subgrade is firm, relatively dry, and crowned before placeing the geotextile - i.e. center should be slightly higher than edges, to promote drainage - say 1/2-inch / foot.
If your site contractor can raise your drive profile subgrade to drain water, I'd say 15" of 6" gravel might be overkill for a residential drive. i.e. the geotextile should reduce required select, imported fill requirements. The geotextile provides 2 atributes: it eliminates the crushed gravel from grinding into the subgrade, and limits lateral spreading - you'll probably see a little after 1 year due to the geotextile being stretched.
But it's also a function of the native soils' strength and drainage properties below the drive.
Then place a woven geotextile (I bought from EJ Prescott - they may have shops in mid-ME). If your drive profile is somewhat steep (say >5%) it may be best to cut the roll & overlap sections about 15' since the dump trucks may stress the geotextile when backing up directly on the geotextile and snap (that's what happened to ours, so stand back).
Then place your 4" of crushed gravel down. Ask your site contractor about available sizes - I think I went with 1.5"; easier to walk on than 3" size.
One related item. I had our site contractor install 40 ft. of 12" dia. ADS culvert (polyethylene):
seems wide, but construction trucks need every bit.
after digging out snow in March with a tractor bucket, I mangled both ends.
I'd consider galvanized steel with Flared End Sections if I did again.
It's interesting you're researching this aspect. Many homeowners and contractors build, and re-build, their drives trying to get it right.
Fluffy,
Two earlier posts touched on two different products/processes.
One is macadam, the other is grasscrete. A web search will yield results.
You might want to look at Polypavement.
http://www.polypavement.com/
Here is the best discussion of dirt road BMP I have seen yet;
http://www.berkshireplanning.org/download/4_4_dirt_roads.pdf
here is my 2 cents -- Corps of Engineers' number one design issue is drainage --its been stated here and it is most important (any water that will pond on the high side of the lane needs to be culverted over to the low side)
For the last 35+ years I have maintained a 3/4 mile gravel lane - we have put down over 1000 tons since we started this farm. If I were you, I would put the culverts in, compact, and then put 2" stones in low areas and possibly as a base on the whole lane, then put crusher run on the whole lane as a topping (at leat 2" worth -- then each spring grade back onto the vehicle path with your tractor, and then get some stone delivered to dress the weak areas. We get by by doing this and only need to dress the lane every 4-5 years -- the 2" stone is important and the crusher run (size wise, it is a 57) for the road ways because the 2" for a road way is bumpy, the benefit is that it keeps the traffic speed down.
"Corps of Engineers' number one design issue is drainage"
Glad to see they've finally come around to my way of thinking.
(-:
Anyone who believes that the way to a man's heart is through the stomach flunked anatomy. [Robert Byrne]
I agree with Plantlust--concrete pavers (never can remember their real name) that form a grid. You excavate and put something like 8" of compacted gravel, sometimes over landscape fabric, and put these pavers on top, then you fill the holes in them (kind of like a waffle in appearance) with soil and you can grow grass or whatever in there. I used them on a housing project where fire trucks had to have access to the back of the building, but that would be the only time a "driveway" was needed. They disappeared pretty well into the grass, but could be plowed in winter to keep the access open.
I have no idea of how well this would work in Maine, but here in California they use a tar and screening process to maintain residential streets.
Basically, they repair potholes and cracks then spray a light coat of tar followed immediately with a layer of fine gravel. It gets rolled to bind the gravel into the tar and normal traffic finishes the rolling. After a week or so, they come back and sweep up the loose gravel.
These pictures are of my street which was resurfaced about three years ago.
Thanks, Dave45, the photographs really help. I think the closest thing we have to the California technique you describe is chip seal, which looks better than asphalt and behaves better than gravel when it's plowed - it may be my compromise solution.
I've been reading about PolyPavement which sounded perfect on the website, but isn't getting good reviews in the northeast. Has anybody up here ever used it?
I think I've heard it called chip seal, too. Around here, they use white gravel but I suspect that you could use other colors - maybe even a mixture - to get something that doesn't look "new".
We don't have snow around here (well, not since 1976), but the surface is hard and would probably stand up to snow removal.