New foundation-When to level floors?
Hello All,
I’ve got a question on when in the process of installing a new foundation do you level the floors of the house? I might of just bought a Victorian house with its original brick foundation. The floor in the house slope a bit to the outside. The plan would be to demo the brick foundation, dig down for a full height bottom floor(only like 2′) and install a new foundation and slab. Of course after all that work I am going to want level floors in the house. When does that happen? Do we level the house with screw jacks after the foundation is busted out? Before? after the foundation is set?
Whats the usual plan in this situation?
Thanks,
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
p.s. I need to change the email associated with this account but there does not apear to be any way to do that from the edit profile page? Anyone have an idea on how to do that?
Edited 2/28/2007 6:33 pm by madmadscientist
Replies
You need to support the house before you take out the foundation, this is the time to level. Are you prepared for all the cracking and plaster falling off the walls that will happen when you do this?
I am hiring the job out, but yes I know the house has to be supported before the foundation is knocked down. Around here they usually use rail-road ties stacked up and steel I-beams. So standard procedure would be to level the house after its supported by the cribing and after the old foundation is knocked down?
No worries about the cracking plaster this place is a fixer that is going to require gutting most of the rooms.....
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Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Edited 2/28/2007 8:03 pm by madmadscientist
"standard procedure would be to level the house after its supported by the cribing and after the old foundation is knocked down?"Funny what a picture I got in my mind from that based on terminology...You jack the place up on steel, take out the foundation, then level the house (meaning tear it down to ground level....cracks in plaster certainly wouldn't be an issue there!;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
The real leveling won't happen until the house is set back down on the new foundation. The house movers who jack the house up are not going to want to try to level the house while it's on the cribbing. Some movement will happen then, but they will not want to try to do the kind of leveling you are talking about. This will happen when the house is set back down on a level foundation and center bearing.
Hello Woodroe and thanks for replying,
How do they level the house out after its set down on the new level foundation? Are you assuming that all it needs to be level is a new level foundation? No 'shimming' or anything like that?Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
In th ephoto gallery I have a thread titled Jack that house John Henry, where i am doing just what you mentioned. There are other ways of doing this than what shows there, but it will give you some ideas and some questions to start with.
Is the brick foundation in failure?
What kind of foundation would you plan to replace it with?
I have to asume - since the floors slope to outside, that the foundation is sinking and the center has support on piers there or conection to a chimney? I would want to develope a theory why the walls are sinking and how to prevent the new ones from doing the same.
One of the first things you would need to know is what the ground water level normally peaks at and where you would lead water too if you place the floor of the cellar deeper.
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Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
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Hi Piffin and thanks for replying,
Here in Alameda CA its definately earthquake contry and the island I think is basically fill. Or in other words its all a liquifacation zone. The current foundation is the original brick foundation thats been 'capped' with cement. I'm not exactly sure what that means exactly. It looks like they build a form around the brick and pour cement over it 'capping' it. Not sure how much good that does...
There is a center beam that runs down the length of the house on piers.
We are told the ground water is at around 4'. The bottom level on all these houses is a step or two down from ground level. If we were to redo the foundation I would want to replace it with a steel reinforced concrete and a new slab. I would also want to go down 2' more so that I can get a good head height in the entire bottom floor.
If you got a strong stomach here's some shots of the house....
http://madmadscientist.com/galleries/Alameda1310/Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
There are times when the various wood members that have been bent over years of increasing pressure simply can't be brought back to level without breaking.
It's worth checking everything in order to develope a plan, but some of it may not be known until the house is set on the new foundation.
Across the alley from our last job, a house with new foundation set down just fine except for a porch. After "resting" for a few months, 2" off the plate, it wasn't coming down anytime soon and had to be helped along.
Best of luck, that's a cute house.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Thanks for the reply Don,
The house does not have a super bad slope-just a bit to the outside along the long dimension and in the back proch area it slopes a bit more.
We just found out that our bid was acceppted for the next level of bidding. They countered us and 3 others now...trying to get us in a bidding war for this house....
http://madmadscientist.com/galleries/Alameda1310/
It is a cute house and one we hope will be our last (at least for a very long time) so we want to 'do it right'
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Of course, there's "level" and then there's "level". If the floors are out of level due to sagging beams rather than a subsided foundation, that may have to wait until the house is down on its new foundation, so new support members can be added. Additionally, shimming to correct minor variations (possibly, eg, in the dimension of old rough-cut beams) will have to wait until then. Finally, the cribbing itself will not perfectly and uniformly support the house, so the level while on cribbing will be "approximate".
IOW, don't try to hang any pictures level until it's down on its final foundation.
Assuming the foundation is not in imminent danger of collapse is it really stupid to wait and do that later? Its going to cost a ton to redo it...a ton we don't really have right now. We can afford to clean the place up and restore the top two floors (us doing most of the work ourselves). Then we'd have a pretty nice house with a skanky basement. Would replacing the foundation really screw with the newly redone house??
Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Replacing the foundation AND "leveling" stuff that isn't currently level can create problems with modifications made to the un-level house. Eg, doors may be installed plumb in the house and then be non-plumb (and possibly racked) when the house is leveled.As to work done while the house is jacked, it depends on how carefully it's jacked and leveled, and how well it's all supported. Eg, corners may sag a bit, or the central beam may not be supported at exactly the correct level. There's really no strong motivation for the foundation folks to get the jacked house exactly level -- they just want it above the level of the new foundation and level enough that they can scope out any oddities in the joist/beam system.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
You would pretty much have to start with the foundation.Even the nost gently and carefully done foundation replacement, if it needs leveling too, will loosen up plaster or crack sheetrock, and make doors and windows fit differently amd open joints in the millwork.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
is it really stupid to wait and do that later?
Oh yeah!
You definately want the house in it's final resting place before you do any restorations.
Clean up and demo is ok and maybe good to do before jacking. But definately coordinate with jacking foreman before any work during jacking.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
OTOH, any jacking outfit that works much with older homes is probably familiar with situations where work has been done to a non-level house, and they should know how to "compromise" between being perfectly level and keeping the old updates in reasonable shape.One of those things that should be discussed before the contract is signed, and probably noted in the contract.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
That's a good point....we will be sure to use someone who specializes in lifting old houses.
Now I just need to magically know how much its going to cost without having anytime for a contractor to check it out.
We have to respond to their counter offer by 5pm today so we have lots of stuff to think about....what is more stressful than this I ask you...Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Now I just need to magically know how much its going to cost without having anytime for a contractor to check it out.
$95,059.98
Sorry. That's a BT insider joke.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
Actually I've been around here long enough to get that joke.
What's scary is, that might not be two far off the price. In our current house we had the old bad foundation broken out, the floor area dug down a bit and a new foundation-slab poured with exterior french drains. It cost us almost $30,000 to do it. This new place has about three times as much foundation and slab that needs to be replaced....so that could be right around $90,000 if the price scales linearly with size..thats a lot of dosh right after buying a house.Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Not too many house movers who specialize in lifting new houses...;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ha yea, my brain must be fried from all this 'trying to buy a house' stress!!!!!Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
We just found out that we have the winning bid on the house!!!! I don't know whether to do a jig or throw-up!!! We have till mid-day Monday to prove to the seller that we have the funding lined up and ready to go then its a ten day escrow and the place is 'ours'. Whew doggies I need a drink!Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Ah!! Wedding day jitters.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
When I got married I wasn't nervous a bit except about the wind blowing the wrong way and someone in the wedding party getting burned by the flaming arch....Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Just the words "flaming arch" would have made me run.
So convenient a thing it is to be a reasonable Creature, since it enables one to find or make a Reason for everything one has a mind to do. --Benjamin Franklin
but you are not a mad mad scientist - only a flaming lib;)
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
level floors in the house. When does that happen?
When the foundation is poured.
Then you set the house down on the level foundation.
The tricky part is getting all the house down to meet the foundation. That's an art that ya gotta be there for.
SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
I see Sam,
If I understand you, you seem to be saying that when you set the house down slowly and gently on the new level foundation it will just 'level out' ?Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Great looking house!
I had my house lifted and put in a new foundation and also reframed the entire bottom floor.
When the house was being lifted hydraulically, I tried to get the contractor to straighten some "sags". The problem is the house had add ons and it wasn't known if it was built crooked or a result of settling. He did a litle fine tuning, but was unwilling to really straighten much,while the house was "in the air"
After the house was cribbed and the foundation set, as I was framing the bearing walls, I rented some screw jacks and fine tuned some areas that I thought could be staightened out. This was done after I had a better understanding of the structure,as i became more familiar with the house.
That said, the floors in this old house are not all level. As one poster said, there is level and then there is level.
My house is also in Alameda and I would be willing to share any info you may be interested in. We did our house ourselves and I am just a humble carpenter, not a contractor; ^ )
Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.
Hi Mike and thanks for replying,
We just faxed off our counter-offer and we'll have to wait till tomorrow to find out if it was accepted.
The house is at 1310 Pacific ave is that in your neighborhood?
I agree that floors in old houses are never going to be dead level but that said our current house has floor that slope a full 3" in ~10' Thats to much for me. Do you think I am being unreasonable? Whats a reasonable slope for a floor in an old house?
You did the foundation yourself? Or you restored it yourself? For us the two things we will pay to have done is the foundation and roof everything else we can do. Did you have the foundation done and a slab poured?
If you don't mind me asking can you tell me what it cost to have your foundation done? Right now I am just pulling WAG's out of my behind.
How high is the water table you think?Daniel Neuman
Oakland CA
Crazy Home Owner
Good luck on your offer.
We live on Willow.
I had the house lifted and the same crew did the foundation after I removed the old one myself.I framed the bearing walls and they dropped the house. $24,000 for the lift and foundation in '02
I did the rebar for the slab and put in radiant tubing myself and hired a concrete pump and finishers to pour it.
I used an electrician, plumber and tile setter. The rest was done by us.
The city was ok to work with, but permits are high for new square footage because of school taxes. My whole bottom floor was new because it was not living space previously. Inspectors are pretty cool. Stay in touch, I can help with plaster/ drywall (thats my trade). Mike
Trust in God, but row away from the rocks.