We are getting ready to build our dream home…we have hired a contractor to construct the “shell” of the house, including mechanical & electrical and then we can take on the aspects that we want and sub the rest out to our original contractor or another sub of our choice. Does anyone have any suggestions for contract verbage or construction advise in general?
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Just curious - you say "we have hired a contractor to construct the "shell" of the house including mechanical & electrical"
I'm guessing you haven't actually hired him yet, as you do not yet have a contract since you are asking for advice on contracts. Normally the contractor (subcontractor) will supply the contract - if any.
Secondly, who is going to do the plumbing? There is always different methods of scheduleing, but normally the plumbing is roughed in before electrical and HVAC, the reason being that the plumbers have less flexability as to where they put their stuff - ie sink goes here, and toilet goes here... so that is where the pipes go too, and there better not be any electrical boxes, wires, duct runs, etc in the way when that hole hawg comes through the floor...
Also, who is doing the roofing - again, possible scheduleing concern with respect to plumbing.
Here is something else - you probably want any contractor you hire to supply a certificate of insurance, and probably sign a lien release at the time of payment.
Edited 6/30/2003 6:13:44 PM ET by DIRISHINME
Use an AIA contract. Get some help from your attorney or a trusted experienced contractor. The details of this agreement are going to make or break this experience.
The AIA contract is a standardized form used in every state. If things would go bad, this contract has significant litigation precedence, which means to the extent possible, you won't have to pay to reinvent the contract litigation wheel.
The dirty little secrete of an attorney prepared contract is if there is trouble the opposing attorney is going to question, at $200 an hour, every word of your attorneys contract, a cost you don't want to incur.
Ever try to change the wording in an insurance policy? Why won't the insurance companies allow it? Because every word and phrase of their policy has been litigated over the years and they know 99 time out of a 100 they will prevail. Give yourself the same advantage, go AIA.
use an AIA contract if you want... just don't expect me to sign it, or work under it..
i'll write the contract , thank you.. that's the 2d part of my job description.... ..... general CONTRACTOR...we do what all good GC's do.. we execute contracts..
i also call myself a " Builder" for those that get confused...
good luck.. and happy homebuildingMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
We've been doing custom home and commercial projects for over 25 years. The day of the self written contract is over. I know of no sizable project we have successfully bid or job we've been awarded in the last 8 to 10 years that has not had as it's requirement, usually by the architect and if missed by him always by the attorney, an AIA contract. The architects' and the attorney's believe it to be smart business for the owner. To the contrary I've found it to be more advantageous to me as the builder. To draw up a contract for a large custom home or commercial project myself or have an attorney draw up one is not a risk I'm willing to take, when I have the security of an AIA contract.
In General, I'm with Mike, but I was told to keep an open mind not long ago. How about some specific examples where language in that AIA contract protects the contractor or an example how it is specific enough for all fifty states. Does it cover the ten items I have to warn my customers about in this state?.
Excellence is its own reward!
You can include anything you wish, but I would run it by an attorney that is experienced with the AIA. You do not, the problem with self composed contracts, unwittingly want to trip your self or the meaning of the contract with some unintended detrimental language. You can't keep a client from suing you, but if they would, you want to win and you want to win at little or no cost to yourself. If your a responsible contractor the problem is never whether you are going to do the work of the construction documents, the problem if there ever is one, is getting paid.
Also, the AIA forces you and the client to be specific and precise. As with," good fences make good neighbors", the more specific and precise the contract, the fewer potential issues between you and a probably inexperienced, in the construction process, client. With the size of todays projects, not getting paid or having to wait a significant time because of litigation to get paid, can significantly adversely affect your business.
Although very few, the number 1 problem I've had with clients is unrealistic expectations. Usually caused by the construction documents not being detailed enough by the architect. This is why we also use our own specification forms. The 2nd problem we've encountered, is the dishonest client who attempts to renegotiate the contract or the extras at the end of the job.
I've only been sued a couple of times, but have had to threaten suit several times to collect. To date none have reached the court and we have prevailed in each, the contracts are too strong and well defined by years of previous litigation. A self or attorney written contract does not enjoy such a history of precedence.
Thank you!.
Excellence is its own reward!
One thing I have realize in the method of construction you are looking at is that most of the work is done on the "rough in". Finish work is usually the easy part. I have seen many subcontractors make as much profit on the rough part only as in a completed rough/finish job. I have looked into both methods for my soon to be started home. I will be doing the painting, interior trim, cabinetry, finished tops, appliances, and all flooring except carpeting. This is where my proficiencies are and I won't be holding up other subs and worring about weathering in" my home. I could do alot more(or all of it), but my then my health and family's needs/welfare are my main concern at this time.
Try to leave as much in the G.C's origional contract. This will probnably prevent many time delays and finger pointing.
I realize that this is not a reply to your origional question, but I thought it might be something to consider.
Another thing is that the interest rates are now at 4 3/4% and the sooner construction is done, the sooner the take out loan will start. Construction loans usually run higher and you never know when the Feds will jack up interest rates again. Which in a the long run, could cost you even more money
Do yourself a favor and spec everything in writing. And I mean everything, right down to the brand of nails you want them to use. I built my home 4 years ago and found the contractor trying to cut corners and using materials I would never use myself. Unfortunately for him, I was on the job everyday because I was doing most of the finish work and the electrical myself. It created a little tension when I'd call him on something and when the house was finally done I can honestly say I would never hire him again. And he came highly recommended from a friend! Also if you see something you don't like or a mistake they have made, call them on it immediately. They didn't frame my main staircase the way I had drawn it on the plans, of course I was so busy doing my stuff that I didn't really notice it for several days, (it was framed off by a few inches.) When I brought it too their attention they wanted $600 to fix it because the 2nd floor deck had already been strapped and the plumber had run lines up through the adjacent wall to the 2nd floor bathroom. Good Luck! I love my house but I'd love to find a nice piece of land and build it over again! I could correct a few little mistakes I made in design. Everything looks great on paper but you can't really judge it until you've lived in it for a year or two. Also do yourself a favor, if you have any rooms wider than 12 feet, insist on 12 o.c. framing for the floor joists or use an engineered system. 16o.c. joists just don't cut it for spans wider than 12 feet! Good Luck
I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
if you spec it that tight, you will be building it yourself or paying twice as much for the job..
Excellence is its own reward!
"if you spec it that tight, you will be building it yourself or paying twice as much for the job."
That is interesting statement if it is true. Would you care to explain.
Sure,
These guys already touched on it, and I won't waste time writing a full discourse but take the nails thing as an example.
Suppose that I have some 1-1/4" hot dipped roofing nails in my truck but the job calls for a specific name brand of 1" roofing nails in the contract, but the yard didn't deliver them. I call and find out that they don't stock that brand, so I need to drive across town to the other yard. I get there and they only have the 1-1/4" nails in stock, but shipment is due in on thursday.
So I have men wasting time waiting while a storm cloud gathers and shingles ready to install. I know I can do the job as good or better than the contract dictates but I have an anal customer standing there making me have a stomach churn. I decide to relax and not challenge the customer? Go home for a day? Worry about rain clouds pouring water into house and insurance claims?
Think I'll take a contract like that for the same money as a regular customer?
I've done a couple of government jobs and that's how they spec them. And that's why the costs on thoise jobs are up to three times as much as regular jobs. Too much paperwork and hassles..
Excellence is its own reward!
Actually the general contractor and I still talk and get along fine. You probably took what I said too literally. I should have written it differently, While you probably don't have to spec the brand of nails, I would definitely spec any plumbing fixtures you want, wall finishes, brand of siding shingles etc.. Yeah it did add to the price of the house but I got quality fixtures and workmanship. All the subs I worked with were very good, the problems came because the general did a lousy job of scheduling the subs and because they tried to save money by doing some of the work themselves, which I suspect they weren't really qualified to do. They installed 36 windows by putting one roofing nail in each corner of the flange. Is that quality work? Not to mention a half dozen or so were out of plumb, along with the front door. If you want all plywood construction; spec it, If you want a perimeter drain around your footings; spec it, otherwise you may not get it. I'm not saying the contractors were crooks, to them this is just another job, but I'm the one that will be living here for the next 30 or 40 years and I want to make sure the job is done the way I want it done. The building code is the MINIMUM building standards allowed by law, to me the code is a good starting point, but that is all. And I don't care what anyone says, if you want solid floors, 16in o.c. just doesn't cut it for long spans. I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
Notchman, you right I am not THAT anal, but when they were going to pour the cellar floor with out a vapor barrier and no rebar enforcement, does that make me an #### for not saying something? Although footings were spec'd the sample survey came back and said they didn't need footings in the hard packed clay soil I have, they were going to pour with out footings, does that make me an #### for saying something? I trusted all the subs, and they all did excellent work, we all got along fine. Just make sure you're getting what you are paying for, and If you have your heart set on certain things make sure they are spec'd in the plans. Also I spec'd a 500lb cast Iron tub for the second floor bathroom..when I came to the Job that morning the plumber was bringing in a fiberglass unit, why? The General never told him we had spec'd certain fixtures, even though I asked the general the day before the plumber was scheduled to come if he had any trouble getting the fixtures! I could go on and on... The point is....I still had a great time building this house and I will do it again if the right piece of land comes along. I will just hire a General that is a little more organized next time, and I would use almost all the same subs again. The plumber, plasterer, carpet installer, framers were all excellent. Sorry to ramble on, but it seems many of you took my first post as an attack on tradesmen, which it was not meant to be. Merely a warning to all potential homebuilders to make sure you are getting what you are paying for and don't be afraid to speak up if something is not done to your liking, you will be the one that has to live with it forever, not the guy that botched the job.I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
OK, you were using hyperbole` while I was reading it literally, like a contract detail should be read.
Specs can be anal or they can be a communications tool. Too bad you had a contractor who couldn't read and forced you to do his work for him. That lesson emphasizes more that it is important to carefully select your contractor than to be overly specific, IMO.
But then I almost always do above and beyond what is called for. Not everyone does. Builders who don't, should be restricted to tract spec homes..
Excellence is its own reward!
Well, that's more like it!
A good GC will review plans and specs thoroughly and it's his responsibility to adhere to the specs and make sure that the subs do. That's one of the reasons the GC gets a percentage of the sub costs, or whatever arrangement you have with him to compensate him for his project management.
I went on a bit of a rant last night because your original post called up a few memories of clients who surf the net in the wee hours and then hit me the next morning with some off-the-wall idea they'd found on some website, or "learned" in some chatroom. (This forum is the good exception, of course!)
And you're right; building codes are minimums and most of us exceed them where the result will be a better building. For example, I'm in the habit up putting double sill plates in window RO's, and I like to install extra blocking in walls where cabinetry or heavy wall hangings or safety handrails may be installed. And there are a lot of little things that, in specific areas, are not code required, but are of benefit to the house. Most of my projects are rural, where critters can be a problem, so I usually advocate for crawlspace slabs.
I'm not sure all those things need to be spec'd in the contract. The contract should be addressed to the plan....to me, the plan is God, the contract is merely a pesky desciple.
HO's should speak up when they're uncomfortable about something going on. And the GC should be a good listener and be able to keep the client in the comfort zone. I actually like that part of my job, and if I've missed something, i appreciate a heads up.
Thanks for understanding notchman! I guess I went off a little on my first post! I'm sorry if everyone took it the wrong way. I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
Aimless, have you taken a look at the fiber cement siding products from Harding? I haven't used them myself but wouldn't mind trying them out. Does anyone have any experience with them?I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
Actually, though it had never occurred to me, I can see specifying the type of fasteners, though not the brand. We bought cedar siding for an addition at a lumber yard in the next county, but they had no stainless fasteners of any kind. Can we order them? Uh, yeah, let me get back to you on that. Went to other local yards, they didn't carry them either, in desperation went to both of the big boxes and they didn't carry them either. Nobody would order them for me. Aside from the fact that I think places selling cedar siding should carry the appropriate fasteners, I can't see a contractor going to the lengths we did to find them. They would have just taken the cheap galvanized fasteners that each of the yards and one of the big boxes offered up as their standard for cedar siding. I'm assuming that is what many of the local contractors use, since that is what the lumberyards are stocking. If it is specified in the contract that stainless must be used for the cedar siding, then the contractor will order it, either through the yard (assuming they have a lot more pull than po' me) or direct from McFeelys.
Shouldn't the stainless nails have been order when the shingles were? This might have avoided the problem. Of course out here, cedar shingles are not the norm.(fire hazard). This area is known as Stucco Town.
It's lap siding, not shingles, not sure if that makes a difference? We are in a fire-hazard area as well (UT) but the existing house has the same siding, and it's better than vinyl! Probably should have ordered the nails at the same time as the siding, it just didn't occur to me that they wouldn't carry them in stock, or even order them (we were willing to wait). They would have had to order the fasteners from a different supplier anyway, as the lumber was coming from a mill. We were lucky that somebody else had special ordered exactly what we needed and were able to add our order onto theirs without having to pay for any of the setup.
I agree with you, Piffin.
I don't cut corners and tend to overbuild, but if I'm putting together a contract with a HO and he gets to the level of dictating what brand of nails I'm to use, that's when I say "see ya!."
Now I'm sure Mr. Manroot isn't that anal, but if a HO is dialed in that specific to his project (and understands construction practices and how a building goes together) he's better off to find his own crew and micro-manage them.
I'm building a house for a retiree right now who was raised by a concrete contractor father, spent 8 years in the Navy in the Construction battalion and had his own HVAC firm for 35 years.
HE knows how a building goes together. He's living on site in an RV, his DW designed the house, an Archy did the plans and he leaves us alone to do our work.
I consult with him when we encounter a problem or an opportunity, but he knows what's going on, pays on time and enjoys not having to work in 100 degree heat.
Our contract is 2 pages and his money is reliable and he trusts me and my subs.
He'll get a great house!
Of course, you know all this stuff, I just had to rant. Unreasonable pickiness sets me off!
Good advice on the joist spans if you don't want any floor bounce. Another way to put it (assuming your plans are engineered) is to ask for the floors to be designed L/480 deflection specs (L/360 is the base standard).
On the other had I agree with Piffin - if you spec it that tight, (specify brand of nails)only people who can't find work will take it, or a good contractor will price it high to make sure he is well covered.
In most markets, a builder's job is to get the structure done, while containing costs. This may include cutting back on a few things to save the homeowner money. On the other hand, there is always that one job when cost is of little concern. Like one of my neighbors - 6k sq feet for 750k (not including the land or site work)- and this ain't a *real* fancy neighborhood.
This is where a quality builder saves in ways that owner/builder can't - owner/builders are so intent on doing a great job, they waste money on unnecessary things.
In reality, Manroot - I bet you probably got a good value for your money and I'll also bet your contractor wasn't driving a $40,000 pickup. As far as you not hiring him again, I'll bet $100 that he wouldn't work with you again... unless it's a very depressed market.
"rooms wider than 12 feet, insist on 12 o.c. framing for the floor joists"
Actually, that's the wrong thing to do. Strength comes from reduced spacing. Stiffness comes from increased span/depth ratio.
The thread I did on Floor Vibration explains it better......It's like raising 120 kids all going through puberty at the same time.
Bosshog, your article on floor vibration is interesting, however in my area 90 percent of flooring is 2x10 framing. If I asked to go to say 2x12's in the living room because it is a 16 foot span, now you have issues with floor height's because every other floor in the house is framed with 2x10's, to use 2x12 joists through out the house is kind of a waste of money as most of the other rooms are only 10 to 12 feet wide. Framing the living room 12 or even 10 on center with 2x10's only adds marginally to the overall cost of the house while beefing up that one 'wide' span. Also in my area most houses are simple 2 story jobs under 2,200 s.f. If you have the money to spend (as most people building those huge 3,000 + square foot houses down by the ocean in my area must have) Then your absolutely right, deeper joist would certainly make sense. I don't understand! I cut it twice and it's still too short!
Without seeing your specific house plan, it's hard to say what the best way to go is. (or was) But I will say that I don't believe 2X10s should span 16', regardless of their spacing.
Most house plans I work on have one long span that determines what joist/I-joist/floor truss depth will have to be used.
My main beef was with your statement that rooms wider than 12' should have 12" O.C. framing. I think you're doing the wrong thing for the right reason.
Upgrading to 2X12s in your case might have made the most sense. Or it might have been possible to play around with beam or wall locations a bit to make 2X10s work better.
You may see the use of 2X12s as a waste of money now. But if your floor bounces, you might wish you had spent a relatively small amount more to get a better floor. It's not something that's easy to fix after the house is framed up.
I realize everyone isn't as conservative with floors as I am, and you certainly have (or had) the right to do what you want with your house. But I think the comment you made about 12" O.C. spacing is just plain wrong.Life is not a problem to be solved, but a gift to enjoy.
You are talking convenience and cost vs quality construction and design. A knowledgeable designer will make the right choices at design time and possibly save on cost.
For the spans you are speaking of, if I couldn't change the depth which is preferable, I would use TJ-15 x9-1/4" @ 12"OC.
Excellence is its own reward!