I just spent the day up in my “garbage box”. The garbage box is a work platform that I used to lay plywood on a 12 pitch roof. I haven’t layed a lot of plywood in the last few years, but since we have two gimpy guys (bad knee on one and a sprained ankle on the other) I had to volunteer.
Anyways, even when I’m healthy, a 12 pitch roof will tire me out and usually by the end of a day, I’m whipped. But today, I was working all day from the garbage box. I had plywood to lay, layons to frame, siding to cut back, rafters, etc, etc, etc.
In my garbage box, I have everything. Ive got two toolboxes, my boxes of nails, staples, clips. I’ve got rafter stock, kicker stock, plywood supply. I’ve got my snacks, water, and phone and extra sweatshirt. I have a small step ladder. I’ve got a plank.
I’m framing and laying and framing and laying and eating my snacks and framing and laying. Keep in mind, my lower back has been flared up for a week or so and it doesn’t matter. I’m really comfortable up there laying this 12/12 roof.
I got to thinking…my back is so messed up from our younger days of humping plywood up ladder racks and plywood racks, and humping heavy loads. Then I start thinking that if I had a forklift like I have now and this garbage box, my back would be health today at age 52. Then it dawned on me:
Osha shouldn’t let any crew frame without a forklift. Forklifts save young backs. It just doesn’t make sense to NOT have a forklift on a rough frame job.
Keep in mind that I worked from 8:45 till 6:30 with a half hour lunch and when I came down, I wasn’t tired at all. I could have done another four hours easy.
Anyone agree? Should OSHA require forklifts on every frame job?
blue
Replies
Naw. You got smart from the pain. You can't regulate common sense. Some will figure it out, some wont. Life goes on.
"If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
I cant belive you of all people would advocate OSHA recommending anything!!!
I don't have much to do with the building end of the house but I have noticed that not all that long ago I didn't see that many framing crews with lifts, now I hardly ever see a crew with out one. I would think that's a good thing.
I would think that the crews with out them would eventually get weeded out by attrition of some form or another.
I remember when I bought my first air nailers, figured I'd need them to compete, kinda the same difference.
Doug
I cant belive you of all people would advocate OSHA recommending anything!!!
Actualy Doug, I would advocate the abolishment of OSHA. But if it's going to be in our lives, it might as well make things safer for the young guys that are currently tearing up their backs.
blue
you damn libertarians are all alike....just one damn fool law after another
ok... all framers have to have lulls..
what about framer wanna-be's like me ? do i have to use a lull ?
do homeowners doing their own framing have to use a lull ?
if we need lulls, do we have to buy them from whining, sniveling liberal / progressives like frenchy ? or can we find local red-neck purveyors ..
oh, wow.. the commutations and permutations , not to mention corallarys , of this new blue law just boggle the mind..
i think i'll go to the couch...
say good nite, grace
Good Morning Mikey.
what about framer wanna-be's like me ? do i have to use a lull ?
Umm, do you frame? Then yes. Get a lift.
do homeowners doing their own framing have to use a lull ?
Umm, no. Currently homeowners do not fall under the OSHA umbrella.
if we need lulls, do we have to buy them from whining, sniveling liberal / progressives like frenchy ? or can we find local red-neck purveyors ..
Yes, everyone has to buy their lifts from Frenchy! If he happens to whine and snivel during the sales process, only liberals will have to pay the sales tax.
Hope the couch was good to you last nite. I woke up feeling quite nice considering that I was up on that roof all day boogerin'.
blue
Libertarians want government out of our lives. They oppose seat belt and motorcycle helmet laws, they would oppose any law made by OSHA. Other than that I could see the points you made.
danno ... the fun thing about libertarians is pulling their chains..
and pulling a chain is a lot easier than trying to push one..
blue just happens to be one of my favorite libertarians.... but he's got so much tongue in his cheek in his orginal post that it's hard to understand himMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Aha, so it wasn't a plug of chaw?
(extemely whiney pennypinching boss voice)
But forklifts are expensive...
we never used them when I was doing it..
we found that they weren't really more efficient...
blah blah blah blob....
Young backs are usualyy cheaper than a fork lift.
for the boss that is!!!
I agree with you blue, but aslong as cheapassz bosses can convince young, dumb and full of come guys to bust there backs humping by hand forklifts will only be used by the veterans.
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."
-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
The scary thing is..... my forklift is actually cheaper than a single young back. Really... I've done the math. My forklift costs me about $12/hr on site. I figured that based on a 40 hr week and 2000hrs/year.... that's worst case scenario. Unlike a laborer... the more hours we use it, the cheaper it gets to own.... even with maintenance figured in. In another 4 years I'll own it and it does wonders at tax time. Oh and W/C doesn't get to take a piece of the pie out of the equation either.
Send that cheapo boss this way T.... I'll set him straight.
MisterT
Please have your boss , your cheap azz boss , your skin flint tight azz boss contact me..
I've spent 15 years making living doing second grade math with cheap azz bosses who whine a lot.. The more they whine and complain the faster i book my commision..
In simple economic terms they are spending too much for hand labor.. They will prove it to themselves with their own numbers,, just call me.. please!
Frenchy, I see an opportunity for you to cash in big as a consultant. <<Please have your boss , your cheap azz boss , your skin flint tight azz boss contact me.. I've spent 15 years making living doing second grade math with cheap azz bosses who whine a lot.. The more they whine and complain the faster i book my commision.. In simple economic terms they are spending too much for hand labor.. They will prove it to themselves with their own numbers,, just call me.. please!>>That describes 75% of the contractors I know. <G>A small piece of excavation equipment is worth about 50 laborers even if they all show up on time, sober, and keep working.But it's amazing how few contractors want to pay "that much" per hour.If this strikes you as funny as your post struck me, I'll tell you my best sales story yet.
Catskinner,
I was around as nail guns became popular.. You'd be amazed at how hard some fought against them.. Can you imagine anybody framing a house today without one?
Even with one in my front yard I have to hump wood around at times.. same as with nail guns,, as wonderfull as they are you still need to pull that hammer out and bang on something once in a while. Forklifts are part of todays building equipment and they do save a tremendous amount, but that doesn't mean they are push button home building by any means..
Blue,
We've been using forklifts for 4 years this next spring. We originally bought a 1970's machine for $7500 that can lift about 6Klbs. At the time we were a 3 man crew. Myself (about 24 at the time) Jasen (about 25 at the time) and Dave (about 44or 45 at the time) and we could not believe the difference it made. Not only in speed, but in setting beams, rolling long I-joists on the second floor etc. I remember coming home and thanking the boss because I had so much energy.
That machine started breaking down, so I researched and researched and we settled on an Ingersoll Rand VR90B that at the time was about years old. We purchased it for either 40K or just under and in the 3 years we've had it, it's been paid off for 2 years and then paid for itself over and over. We side and frame and sometimes do foundations with it. About 2 years ago we went on foundation duty and poured 10 foundations (2 basements) in about a 3 week period (maybe 4). Since five of the foundations were all in the same cul-de-sac, we had the forklift there. Oh man did that make moving panels easy. We poured 5 footings one day and then the next we started setting up walls with the panels boomed right into the foundation. Stripping was so easy.
Anyway, at the beginning of this year we were so busy that we were going to run 2 framing crews, 1 siding crew, and 2 trim crews. I researched machines again and we purchased a 2002 IR VR1056. About a year ago we had 2 platforms made, 16' and 10'. It is insane how much those platforms make a difference. For sheathing roofs, we load it up with fascia, flyrafters,sheathing, nails, clips, and anything else we might need and we can do all our cutting up there and not come down until its done. I would say on most roofs that we cut our sheathing time in half and on steeper roofs it might even be more than that.
2 Fridays ago we layed about 20 squares worth of sheathing in 3 hours and then moved onto another job. We've framed that house quite a few times and it used to take us just over a day by the time you humped the sheathing up there. On this lot, the driveway was steep and the lumber would have had to be dropped on the street, so it would have take more than a day.
Long story short (or is it too late for that :-)) is that for a framing contractor, it doens't make sense NOT to have a machine, especially when you can buy a good used machine for 30-40K. If you are a General Contractor, then you NEED a forklift. It just doesn't make $ sense not to.
We are going to get to trim out one of the houses we just framed and the house is 3 stories high in the front. With a forklift, we can boom up all the cabinets and trim material (carefully) in a fraction of the time. We can load up all our tools and boom it up there also.
I don't think OSHA should mandate forklifts as a requirement, but they should have a way to have the rules adjusted for their use based on tests or some kind of certification. Our 16' platform is many times safer, quicker, and easier than harnessing up and sheathing steep roofs that are way up there.
Sorry for the length :-)
Good post Hoss. On my second floor addition we used my forklift to get all the HVAC materials, the air handler, the tubs and showers, anything we could, up to the second floor. The subs were grateful and we didn't have to track all that crap through our existing living space. Pushing one piece tub surround units up stair wells ain't no fun.
Tim, I fully understand why your so fired up about your lift. I'd use a 16' platform too, but I think your lull is more stable.
Anyways, I'm not backing down on my suggestion. Mikey is right though, and perhaps I need to offer a compromise regulation for those employers that don't want to have a machine on site.
Mike, just becaus I like you, even though you are a Libertarian basher, I'll throw in this amendment when I submit my request to President Bush: "if a framing contractor decides that he doesn't want to use a lift onsite, he shall be limited to building houses that are limited to 8' tall. Furthemore, no framing member shall be shipped onsite in lengths longer than 8'. No header stock can exceed 2x10 (hem fir...no syp or lvls). Additionally, the roof shall be of a pitch no greater than 1/4" per foot of run. Laborers shall be required to carry no more than 8 board feet for one man. Two men shall be required to lift any lumber of 2x8 or greater and be limited to one piece per lift).
See Mike, us Progressive Libertarians are different. We are willing to make new laws that will protect the scrotums or our young lads. Additionally, this new law will open the door for those frail young things of the opposite gender. We will no longer need to only find testotorone filled females to enter our precious trade. This amendment will keep you in business for a long, long time.
I took a snapshot of my precious new garbage box. Unlike Tim's mine is fully customizable. If I need to "open the side gate", I just take out my sawzall. One thing that I will need soon is a snow cover. I'm thinking blue, but I might go with a grey or green tarp. I'm trying to be stylish. Which do you think would look best?
If you look closely, you'll see everything that I need ready to go in the second picture. I've got my nails and staples in the boxes. I've got the old grey tool box with odd nails and staples and nailing plates etc. I've got a cordless drill for screwing on soffit vents. I've got my water. I've got a plastic bag of wheat pretzels (low fat of course) and raw almonds (cancer fighters). Even my chalkbox is ready and at my disposal. Since it was so handy, I actually snapped more lines on this roof than I did on the last ten combined!
Oh yeah, I've also got the cell phone on the right. Yes, the stapler is on the bottom right. My framing square in on the junkpile on the floor. I haven't customized it's own spot yet...I'm just now learning how to use this "lovenest". My full headed Paslode is hanging from the shelf. Don't forget the glue gun! That's my most important tool for doing good exterior pine work. When I unloaded some of the scrap, I found a nail puller and electrical tape.
In the tool box is everything that I could ever want. I've got my nail bags ( I use the term loosely) including my hammer and everything I wear on my belt (not much). I've got the light duty "homeowner" step ladder.
Oh yeah, on top, I've got the goods: I've got rafters, kickers and plywood. I'm ready to go and all I did was start the key! I was amazed that the squirrels hadn't gotten my nuts because Frank parked the thing close to the trees last night.
Basically, I'm ready to rock and roll! I'm almost OSHA approved, even with my new amendments!
I do usually put the chalkbox in the tool box, but i forgot last night...I'm glad it didn't rain.
blue
It's rare to see machines on site around here. Only trade that seems to use them are the masons, and that's because most of them are union.
Dustin, that will probably change soon. I'm sure President Bush will recommend my new safety regulation, especially now that I've added that amemdment so guys like Mike, that don't love their employees can still stay in business.
blue
Blue, Tim Diesel,
You guys are un-american!!!
Don't you know the way to success is to use your help like "baccer"...
Chew 'em up and spit 'em out when they are used up!!!
30-40 large will buy a NICE boat!!
Carpenters are a dime a dozen.
need more just wait til a local layoff, 50% of the affected will become carps.
Is my bitterness showing??
GOOD!
:)
Mr. T. MOTOL
"They keep talking about drafting a constitution for Iraq. Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it's worked for over 200 years, and we're not using it anymore."-- George Carlin
"I think natural selection must have greatly rewarded the ability to reassure oneself in a crisis with complete bull$hit."
I'm Swiss!
A couple months back a stone mason from down the street (probably in his late 50's early 60's) came walking up and told us that it is a waste of money to use a forklift. Didn't we know that we could hire two Mexicans to pack material. What a jackass. I don't know anyone on earth who can lift 2-4 tons of material, lift it 40' in the air and leave it there all afternoon.
Needless to say we ridiculed the guy (nicely of course).
Didn't we know that we could hire two Mexicans to pack material. What a jackass.
You also can hire 2 Mexicans to do your masonry work.Birth, school, work, death.....................
Didn't we know that we could hire two Mexicans to pack material. What a jackass.
You also can hire 2 Mexicans to do your masonry work.
That's what I said, and they would probably do a better job
That's what I said, and they would probably do a better job
In half the time.Birth, school, work, death.....................
I don't know anyone on earth who can lift 2-4 tons of material, lift it 40' in the air and leave it there all afternoon.
I think you are forgetting Superman, and the Incredible Hulk. We used to be best friends, but now I stopped reading, in favor of TV.
dustinf,
If you do a little simple second grade math you will find you can't afford the cost of labor to hump plywood..
I can sell you an brand new shiny forklift and it's still cheaper than labor..
sure I sell used ones, and sometimes I find decent cheapies..
Plug in your own numbers.. Labor costs per hour+ any vacation time or benefits + Workmans comp insurance,+ BS factor,, Boss this is what you should do, boss I gotta quit early today to go to.... boss I can't come in tomorrow because,... I'm sorry I'm late, my car wouldn't start, baby sitter didn't show up, I'm sick, Etc.
Brand new shiny loaded forklift..@ $85,000 + sales tax+ interest+ maintenance+fuel- resale value divided by use $12.08 per hour.
Now add in the following factor,, it will never need you to fill out a workmans comp claim,.... Plus you will find that you can build a conservative 20% faster with a forklift than without one.. that means you can earn 20% more per year!
Now as a smart businessman you should never take any risks. None that you can avoid..
I sell most of my forklifts in a simple way.. I rent it to you with 100% of the rent going towards the purchase (less 1% per month) rent it as long as you want, most rent it until they get the down payment made and then turn it into a purchase where the payments can be around $1400 a month for 60 months.. (new loaded forklift) Yep it's yours without a balloon payment. Unless you call the last dollar we charge a balloon payment.. That's right! there is a final payment of a dollar, 99 pennies plus a spare.. (and sometimes we actually get it <G>)
Your only risk is for the month that you are renting it for.. If you want to cancel we simply cancel.. If you've kept it a week we charge you for a week.. if you've kept it for a day we charge you for a day! If you want we'll rent it to you until you own it, or if you have the required 10% down you can start right off paying about $1400.00 a month.. Yeh we have tax leases to get your payments down,, Yes we lease used ones and older ones and if we have them cheap ones..
As far as credit goes we can do an awful lot..Low credit scores, New business, green card, recent foreclosures, etc. we can do stuff!.. the worse it is the harder it is to do but we've done some pretty creative stuff..
Much of it is on my shoulders.. I make a judgement based on the confidence I feel about your ability to pay.. I've got a pretty good record and there are some I just won't touch. But I really work hard to make it work for you..
Edited 10/28/2005 10:19 pm ET by frenchy
I bought my boom lift that way. I had it rented for a month (which was a good test drive period) for $2000 and some change. They dropped the rental charge when I bought it ( I used my own financing). In six months, I've had it rented out all but one week, when I wasn't using it. Consequently, I've had positive cash flow on it without mentioning the usual savings aspects.Birth, school, work, death.....................
seeyou,
It's the same thing time and time again, The first few guys I sold forklifts to have retired. retired at a young age and with plenty of jing in their pocket...They were able to get jobs that were bid using the high labor cost formula and as a result bought more and more forklifts from me.. Those forklifts are still in daily use while the original owners are sitting in the soft sun drinking wine..
Currantly if you bid without a forklift, you will be too high or lose the bid to someone who has a forklift.. Today's buyers are buying in defence rather than being the leaders..
Your report regarding your boom is just like a lot of my owners, they really couldn't justify it's purchase since they only built a few houses per year but. Once all the outside work was done the forklift would just sit.. By renting it out in the meantime they were able to get others to pay much of the cost of it and could have it available for their next job..
Damn Frenchy, I'm not in the market for a lift but you did such a good job selling that I'm considering buying one for around the house!
Seriously though your right about cheap azzed bosses. For some reason they don't factor labor costs into there expenses.
I just left a shop where the boss was so tight I could write a novel on it. We did some things that were so labor intensive that you just shook your head while doing it knowing that the tool could be bought for the same money that he was spending to have you do it some old fashioned way, and he'd have to tool for the next time.
Doug
I spent about 3 weeks in a cabinet shop out here like that.
They had some serioulsy run down cheap radial arm saws, I turned one on it blew a breaker, I asked the boss where the panel was, explained why, and he was mad saying I had to be gentle with the switch...
what? I'm supposed to stroke it off prior to flipping it? how do you get rough with a switch?
About a week later something else pissed me off and I just walked out, didn't bother to tell anyone I was leaving, just left, he called about 3 days later to let me know I was fired...
Little Hijack here
Years ago I trimmed track homes with a "partner" (partner isn't really a fair description), I had money coming and wanted to get what I could so I lied about taking a few weeks off, really took a job somewhere else, I wanted to make sure he thought he still needed to pay me.
We had a hired man that I confided in about my plans, he said he wasn't going to come back either. I asked if he was going to call the guy and tell him. His answer reminded me of what you said about leaving, He said "when he sees that I'm not here he'll know I'm not coming back"
Doug
CAG,
when I worked in a chrome plating shop we had a bandsaw with a bad on/of switch.
the owner of the shop wired the bandsaw so that it was ALWAYS on------ you turned it on and off by pluging it in and out of the wall receptacle.
I needed the job---and that machine gave me nightmares'cause I knew if I got caught in the machine I was gonna have to kick the plug out of the wall with my foot---or topple the machine over on top of me to un-plug it.
One day OSHA---I secretly rejoiced---figuring OSHA would make 'em fix the bandsaw.
NOPE---Osha said NOTHING about the bandsaw----but required the shop to get rid of some old wooden step ladders leaning against a wall( where they were at least inside and dry)
My boss solved the problem by hiding the step ladders outside behind some machinery where they stayed in the rain/snow etc. ---we used the same ladders for 3 MORE years untill I eventually quit and started my own business.
Stephen
One thing that I will need soon is a snow cover. I'm thinking blue, but I might go with a grey or green tarp. I'm trying to be stylish. Which do you think would look best?
I think you should carry a variety of tarps and color-coordinate with the shingles on each job. Maybe even a nice accent trim in a contrasting color.
Danno, I think your onto something. One minor problem though: there aint no shingle because there aint no roof!
Maybe I can co-ordinate with the color of the building wrap.
blue
You park a crane overnight with the boom up? Looks as dangerous as working under a car that is supported only by a jack. Is there any mechanical safety mechanism that keeps it from suddenly dropping to the ground?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
xxPaulCPxx
Short answer, yes.. real answer, you don't understand the issue..
If you come by my place of business you will see many forklifts booms in the air, some are that way for months untill they are sold.. Right now the forklift in my front yard has it's boom over the roof of my house.. As hard as I've worked to build this place if there were any risk at all, ANY! I'd lower it..
If the boom drifts that is a definate sign that repairs are needed..
This probably should be addressed to ALL, or at least the owners of lifts.
I'm curious about the insurance required for using/owning/renting a lift. Does it affect the cost of Workers Comp? Separate liability coverage? Does your coverage determine who qualifies to operate the machine? Think I recall some mention of operator training.
If you lease your machine to others how does that affect your coverage? (No doubt these factors are affected regionally.)
Good thread, hope this doesn't hijack it too far.
Oldfred has a good question. What are te insurance implications of running/owning a forklift?
Also, I know a few of you have a pretty good handle on your man hours as far as framng is concerned. DOes anyone have a direct comparison of how many man hours it took to frame someting without the lift and how many with?
The limited number of times I've used one it seemed to me that a lift with a good operator replaced about 16-24 laborer man hours in a 9 hour day.
Just curious.
robert,
The number varies too much to be used accurately.. Big house, small house, what sort of access, one story or two, and how diligent do the grunts work, etc.? Conservatively my customers all tell me it saves them about 20% of the time.
I will say that the first time you use a forklift you won't get all of the savings potential possible. Some of the biggest labor savings come from things that builders aren't even aware of.. For example the single greatest time savings comes from putting the plywood on the deck. Figure out how much time your guys spend going back and forth to the subflooring pile and getting the plywood into place.. Now with a forklift pick up the whole pile and extend it out over the floor joists. slide a sheet off the pile and nail it into place then extend the boom another 4 feet and drop another sheet..
I've seen over 1800 sq.ft. sheeted in less than an hour by three people. two sliding and nailing and one running the forklift.. I'vealso seen it take most of the day by three people and at the end they were beat!
Thats kinnda why I was hoping someone like DP would wander by. It seems like he knows how to make good use of his lift.
Whenever one was available we used it for everything from spreading floor joists to lifting studs and ceiling joist. And we always used it to spread decking if it was available.
How many of your customesr are repeat?
Robert,
Repeat customers,, Well, I've never failed to sell a second forklift to a prior customer. I've sold 4 differant brands of forklifts (well actually 8 because today I can sell 4 differant brands{ although I limit my sales to one brand}) I have one customer who's purchased one of each brand of forklifts I've sold.. I sold one customer 7 Cat forklifts and so far two Ingersol Rands..
Some guys like running a three man crew and are content to do so. That person will have his forklift for 25 years and never replace it.. (they really last that long pretty much whatever brand you buy*,... it's always cheaper to repair than replace)..
While the forklifts I sold 15 years ago aren't as nimble or capable as those I sell today they still are capable and likely that 15 year old forklift will require less than $1000.00 worth of annual maintinace..
(* all bets are off if we are speaking about a forklift used by masons or one that has been tipped and bent it's boom)...
Oldfred,
Depending on your insurance rates and whatever deal you have, it costs around $80.00 a month to insure a brand new forklift against loss damage etc..
Whatever you do don't buy your insurance from me.. Please!!!!!!! I charge $280.00 forinsurance that is far from complete! While it insures you against theft, and in the event it catches on fire and burns up <G> it doesn't protect the owner agaisnt many other risks.. For example should you abuse it and as a result damage the forklift it's not covered.. yeh, driving it sideways on a steep hill with the boom up and the frame not leveled out would be considered abuse.. It costs about $20000.00 to replaCE A BENT BOOM AND get the machine back working again.. That would come out of your pocket with the insurance I sell.. it would be covered with your own insurance..
SO PLEASE buy your own insurance..
Do most dealers offer some sort of training or is it a hop on and learn situation? Seems like a lot of liability sitting on four wheels. Does OSHA require training?
oldfred,
It depends on where you rent/buy your forklift from.. Most of the rental houses don't offer training. Most dealers do.. Yes there is a OSHA rule that requires operators to be licened, We ask about it prior to renting but so far we haven't demanded to see the license..
I'm a certified instructor and when I sell a forklift I make sure they know how to use it even if they claim they are licensed..Knock wood in 15 years of selling them I've never had an operator hurt. Simply because I hang around and BS with people when it's delivered and keep an eye on the operator.. Also I try to unload it so when the operator gets into the seat I can show him the controls and give polite guidance regarding their use..
You'd be amazed at how many people claim a license or experiance and when I deliver it, they really are using one for the first time.. Now I have to be really carefull here.. I don't want to call them a lier or point out their mistakes but I also don't want anybody hurt.. I use tact and read the body language and watch their eyes.. All techniques I've learned in selling.. That tells me better than anything how much real experiance they have.
If I see lack of confidense I take it very slow to ensure that they understand and don't get over their head.. sometimes a few minutes is enough but often I'm there all day.. I often quote the need for a license and warn them about the potential fine., (and risks involved) Meantime I take out the operators manual that every new forklift has and show them where to find stuff and how to use it.. (we never send any forklift out without an operators manual but some of the rental houses aren't as careful)
Just so you understand what's involved, when I first started to sell them nation wide there were fewer than 500 rough terrain telescopic forklifts sold. Currantly there are about 15,000 sold a year.. Yet In spite of numbers like that I've never met anyone who admits to having never used one..
OK so I hang around for a while and it seems like I've nothing better to do,, At least I think I've saved a few accidents..
OK so I hang around for a while and it seems like I've nothing better to do,, At least I think I've saved a few accidents..
I bet you have. Probably saved some "warranty work" too.
Thanks for the information.
oldfred
oldfred,
The biggest savings there is when I give them several sets of keys at delivery.. You'd be amazed at how many times keys are left behind and attempts to jury rig it and get it started wind up burning out alternators, starters etc.
I also show them where the fuse panel is and even show them where the spare fuses are.. In the late fall when rain freezes the wipers to the glass, operators jump in, turn on the wipers and blow the fuse.. With a spare fuse they fix it themselves rather than admit the duh!!!! <G>
We then, please fill me in. Is there a mechanical lockout to keep the boom from dropping, or any other safety device? We're not talking about new equipment in this case either but potentially OSHA mandated (wink wink) equipment on every jobsite. You know how hard this equipment gets pushed, and how little maintenance is given by some owner/operators... you say it's always safe to leave a boom with a load up in the air unsupervised? I'm not saying you are wrong - but it goes against everything that I've come across relating to equipment safety.
Is there something specific in these cranes that keeps those booms aloft no matter what happens to the hydraulics??
I used to work in a tractor dealership... There is no such thing as a "minor equipment accident". Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
you know folks,
I read the this thread through-----and I thought
These " facts and figures" are how we rationalize doing what we have already made up our minds to do
And----we ignore other issues
Every year----I go through the same type of calculations regaurding buying a dump truck-----because every year I look at what I spent on subbing it out. Every year---all costs calculated-----subbing it out and NOT owning a dump truck is MORE profitable for me.
So----I can't help but wonder ,in the end, if these " lift figures "might work out the same way for a lot of guys.
Some considerations--------A lot of you have been basing your calculations on a laborer working 2000 hours per year--------but does he really?---If he does ---fine, but does he really?
Does the laborer ALSO do other things for you----that the lift CAN"T do?---Things that YOU or another expensive carpenter will have to do? Will a $35/hour carpenter now be nailing truss clips that used to be done by a $10 laborer? ETC.
Used to be----labor complained when JOBS were eliminated by machines. Now---it seems labor wants increasing pay raises-----with everybody elses job eliminated except their own.
I would love to own a dump truck---what a great toy. But----by my calculations it would be a money wasting luxury
Especially when I can have the benefits of using one----by subbing use as needed.
Frenchies math might just be right---------on the other hand---Frenchy has a vested interest in portraying things a certain way.
Look at the decision from ALL sides.
Best wishes all, Stephen
When I did framing, the boss owned a forklift. It really made framing much easier. We used it to set trusses. Used it to put plywood on the roof and shingles. Used it to put windows in on second floors. Pushed around stacks of wood with it. The hardest thing was getting it to the job site because he didn't trailer it--drove it. Got mighty cold in the open cab driving through snow storms and such to the next site! (He did the driving, I followed in his pickup truck. We'd stop every couple miles so he could thaw out!)
Only bad thing was he didn't maintain it and it'd squirt hydraulic fluid all over and once lost pressure when the lift was fully extended with a big load. The truck was starting to tilt and he hadn't put down the outriggers. Finally the load came down by itself and I ran out and bought five gallons of hydraulic fluid. Usually a maximum of three of the four brakes worked--sometimes we only had one!
Danno,
penny wise but pound foolish!
road driving is legal but expensive! certain brands have too small of planetaries on the axles and when they are road driven the oil overheats and burns out the planetaries. On top of that tires wear out 10 times faster on the road than on the job site... My rule of thumb is never road drive longer than a half hour. short hauls probably pay for themselves. but if you need to travel more than 10 miles hire someone to haul it.. You can often find a guy who does excavating willing to back haul for $75 to $100
Stehpen,
You bring up some really good points. If there is one thing that is anathema to me, it's impulse buying. A decision like this should take some time to make.
However, having used a forklift now for almost 4 years (3 1/2), it is unreal the difference it makes. We've never used laborers here at the company I work for. Every employee goes through the laborer blues, but the goal is that whatever job they've been hired for (framing, siding, foundations, trim) he should progress. Our goal pure and simple is to build a better house than our competitors and to do it at the same or lower cost. Around here, no one has a forklift but us, and that is a huge advantage.
We typically run a 4 man framing crew. That includes 2 guys who are really green. Now they are starting to really understand things and are getting more responsibility, but 4 guys combined with a machine (takes one guy to run the machine) is a very very fast framing/siding crew.
I have some pics on my digital camera of a house we just framed. It is a pretty easy house, but it used to take use 1 month to finish the framing completely before we had a forklift. That house we framed and finished in 11 days. The great thing is, that we didn't kill ourselves, we just didn't have to pack anything up to the house and upstairs. The driveway is steep and the lumber would have been dropped on the street.
The more the crew learns to use the machine, the faster it gets. For us another advantage over our competitors is that we can to stuff that is higher and taller in less time than they can. We stick build all our roofs and so we have the room to frame ceilings that others can't and the forklift makes that much much easier.
I have to take off for work now, but I'll post pics of some of the framing that would have been really really difficult without a machine, but with the machine took almost no time at all.
Tim, you are lucky to be in an area that doesn't have an abundance of forklifts. I don't doubt your numbers and the potential profit margins that you have available would certainly get me excited to be in the business again.
If I were in you're area, using my crane, forklift and panelizing system, I'd be knocking down some very substantial income. I used to do quite well around here when everyone was handpounding and we were using nailguns. The "pricecutters" were still cutting their own prices but they were well above what we needed to be profitable. My only mistake was not jumping on the forklift bandwagon earlier, but there were good reasons for that (I thought). There used to be quite a lot of forklifts tipping over before the days of tilting carriages.
If you can, please post some pics of that 4 wk job that you did in 11 days. I'm always intrigued by stuff like that. That is my cup of tea!
blue
Blueeyeddevil,
I sold a forklift to a framer on the west side of town.. it's just him and his two sons.. they frame a two story 1800 sq ft. house in four days.. On the fifth day they install all of the windows and set the shingles up on the roof.. Average per sq ft. framing around here is around $8. something per foot. they can get $11 since they do what others take three weks to do the builder figures that having them do it is worth the extra..
Now they are the exception and not the standard but the increase in speed is real.
Stephen, I would certainly agree that you it is wise to accurately determine the viability and economics before making a major capital investment.
Almost every year, I used to calculate and re-calculate the true costs of owning and operating a crane. Usually, I based my calculations on a used crane that cost close to 100k. The results were always the same: it made more sense to hire a crane when needed. It would have been significantly cheaper to bring the crane in on each job THREE TIMES, even though the crane operator had a 4 hour minimum.
So basically, I'm agreeing with you especially when you're talking about tangible, measurable numbers.
But, the question I would pose to you is how do you quantify the intangibles? I know for a fact that my lower back wouldn't have multiple crushed disks if I had started my career working with someone that owned/operated a crane or forklift. I also know for sure that today, I wouldn't hire on with any rough framing crew that DIDN'T have heavy equipment, full time on the jobsite.
You do bring up an interesting point about Carpenters at $35 per hour nailing truss clips or doing some other "less-skilled-required" job. I think however, in our business (rough framing), that issue has always been there. Our business has been, and continures to be dynamic. In my lifetime, I used to pair up journeymen with apprentices. The Journeymen did the fitting and the apprentices did the routine nailing and carrying. Nail guns changed that. I found that I no longer needed an apprentice near me to help me keep the flow of the job. I found that I could just as easily do all the routine nailing with the nailguns myself. The next phase was to eliminate the need for laborers to stock materials. The forklift has done that quite nicely.
Like I said, our trade has been in a flux as modern machinery evolved. Early in the 20th century, before power saws, the apprentice was relegated to the saw bench. A newbie carpenter would be expected to take a pattern and cut all the parts of the job and keep the journeymen supplied. That meant long days of handsawing studs to length and lots of hard labor on the roof packages. Eventually, though the need for the apprentice laborers were replaced by power saws. The journeymen then becaue the "sawman". The youngun's just had to re-apply theselves somewhere else on the jobsite.
Well, the job is still dynamic. The forklift has changed our industry around here, for better or for worse. Nowadays, the apprentices are still teamed up with journeymen a lot of the time, but they're simply doing more of the actual framing and carpentry because the lumber is instantly moved/staged to an area immediately adjacent to the actual work area.
Frenchy's numbers can most certainly be challenged but I think that even if you conservatively trim the numbers, the actual gains will still be there. His $12 per hour figure might be a bit higher, but then again, I think it could easily be lower too, especially when you factor in a 25 or 35 year lifespan of these machines. They are lean machines and I don't see any reason why you wouldn't expect to get that much service out of them. We were told that frame carpenters might average only 250 hours per year on them and according to our hourmeter, we're at or below average.
blue
blue,
I believe---it's a matter of scale.
In your case----you are confident that you are gonna keep it busy year round.
I, however---would play " what if"
what if I Don't keep it as busy as my initial calculations assume
At what amount of slack time----does it become a bad deal? how likely IS that slack time?
what do I do in an economic slowdown?????----I can lay off part of a crew----but I still gotta keep paying on the machine?
the machine becomes overhead-----instead of labor---which is a direct cost assigned to a specific job( currently I am slashing overhead everyplace I can find to do so)
Adirondack Jack ( 'member him?) used to hammer me 'cause I didn't have a laddervator to hoist shingles up on the roof. I don't need it---cause usually I can get roof top delivery from any of the local suppliers for big jobs---------and on small jobs the lift is more work than it's worth
for me----it would be a RARE job indeed that I could even get on site the type of equipment Frenchy would have me believe I NEED. LOL
However----if I was roofing new construction( heaven forbid)---it might be a different story.
Stephen
BTW---- Blue----I have complete confidence that you and Tim Uhler know EXACTLY what you are doing
but I also know the numbers wouldn't work for me based on my 700 hours of production/300 hours of overhead /year work schedule
Edited 10/31/2005 5:48 pm ET by Hazlett
Hazlett,
Let me answer that for you.. It's an asset as such it can be refinanced and the payments lowered.. depending on who you finance it from we may be able to use a couple of years payments to reduce your payments from say $1400 a month to around $800 a month.. we regularly allow customers to skip paymnts and simply add them to the back end of the loan..
This is a machine that at 5 years of age is still worth over 1/2 of it's original price.. extending the loan doesn't put us in any sort of financial risk so we are happy to do it..
Finally If you had been smart enough to buy a couple of years ago, the government would have basically paid for most of it.. (ask me about that program sometime)
The actual use of them by busy framers will seldom exceed 250 hours per yar on the hour meter.. That doesn't mean they are only in use for those 250 hours. that means the motor needs to be running that much during a year.. You may use them as fall protection and a working stage When I was working alone doing the stone work on my house I would use a platform to lift up the stone, Morter and tools etc. up to positin then I would set a ladder against the work platform and climb on up. If I had to set up scaffolding and haul stone and morter up and down there is no way I could have done it,, there isn't enough time in the day.. With the forklift I was able to do an admirable job that has recieved a lot of compliments in an average of 2 1/2 hours per segment.. My first experiance doing stone work!! Each stone has a minimum of two anchor ties and is fully surrounded by heavy duty copper flashing.. Plus I was able to put drains into each stone bay..
I mention this since you apparently don't understand just how veristile they are.. Wonderful to paint from, great for roofing work.. I did a 27/12 pitch roof 30 feet above the ground at the bottom and 50 feet at the top and it was so simple you would have loved it.. All work was at shoulder height, the materials were right at hand and I could walk back and forth freely without any bending or flexing of knees or ankles.. If I dropped something I simply bent over and picked it up.. everything I wanted was close at hand, Tools, materials, supplies, copper flashing, etc..
Yes I've sold them to roofers who have told me they pay for them in less than two years in increased productivety and by being able to bid on steep church roofs and stuff that would have been a major pain to do without them..
Yes there are spots where I couldn't get my forklift to. I put the roof jacks on and wore the harness/strap etc.. I was proud to get a few squares a day done where the other sides were done in hours without any increase in my blood pressure.
I had to have several guys help me in those spots.. one to work the safety rope and one to haul material up to me (and pick it back up when I dropped it ) none of them were willing to hang off that roof as I had hoped! ;-(
So with the forklift and work platform I could work alone or have my wife or 14 year old daughter operate the boom up and down. (in case you don't realize it the controls are very easy to learn to use) or I could hire a couple of guys and work much much slower..
Frenchy please elaborate on the "government would basically pay for it" statement. I want to debate that. I did buy mine last year and could have written off 100% of it but I didn't need the writeoff. I've still got some left for this year and maybe beyond.
Also, do you really think that a lift would help a guy like Haz? He basically does small repairs and subs out all the big roofs. He doesnt frame and he doesn't do additions. On the rare occasion that he did a steep roof like you mentioned, he'd be better off renting one for a month.
Buying forklifts aren't for everybody.
blue
Blue,
After looking through the pics, I realized that I don't have any of the garage framing or the final look of the house, but here is what I do have.
Day 1 4 1/2 hours Framed the floor, but have to wait on the inspector to inspect "underfloor framing" now as part of the IRC http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/117114439.jpg
Day 2 Sheathed floor, snapped lines and built all interior and exterior walls. Tried out the fix on the new cart we bought from Northern tool. It's 3' x 6'. As you can see, the tire is flat. We've since bought new tires, but this thing is great!! We load the subfloor onto the cart and can roll it around. It's great to put the 2x6 studs and can roll it out of the way to the walls being framed.
Matt is out of the picture at the far left with all the window packages cut using the SCMS
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/117112723.jpg
End of the same day http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/117112738.jpg
No pics until the roof
Morning http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/117112744.jpg
while the ceiling joists were rolled, we cut the commons
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/117112748.jpg I got the forklift up the hill :-)
End of roof day 1
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/117112753.jpg
Lumber yard shorted us on fascia and rafter material. Our goal was to get sheathed the same day :-)
Next day we finished the framing that was left, and sheathed the roof for a total of just under 4 hours. Did our cutting up above with the 10' platform. After that, Jasen and I did some work for the finish carpenter and Matt and Kyle did some framing on another job for the HVAC guy.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/6234797/117112756.jpg
With the IR VR90B in the pic we could boom up the 10' platform w/sheathing right to the top of the smaller roof on the left. I love that thing.
Blue and Frenchy:
Off the top of her head, my wife says:
1. Standard 42" guardrail, midrail and toeboards for forklift baskets.
2. Basket fastened to mast.
3. Occupied basket, up and down travel only.
4. Basket occupant must be tied off.
5. If basket is occupied, operator must be at controls.
My wife is a Certified Saftey Professional, is throughly familiar with MIOSHA, and is the Corporate Saftey Director for a multinational 200-million-dollar-a-year Michigan industrial construction company, so I'm pretty sure she knows what she's talking about. Oh, yeah, she's a Journeyman Electrician too.
Somebody's gotta have the real job.
Kowboy,
Right you are!
The railing that holds the tiedown strap must be capabale of taking a 200 pound dead drop and no basket may be more than two feet wider than the machine.. Work basket must be OSHA approved. AND! The machine must be approved for the use of baskets.. For example Caterpillar didn't approve of work baskets untill they offered their own work platform (about 1999)
There is no requirement for an operator in the seat if the engine is turned off and the keys removed. Thus once it's in position the operator can come and give a hand.. Work baskets that can be operated from the platform do not have the requirement of an operator in the seat..
* one minor correction.. the requirement isn't that the work basket be tied off to the mast, it is that the work basket is restrained from falling off.. There are plenty of OSHA approved methods to do that but none to my knowledge require connection to the mast, usually connection to the LBR (or carriage) is sufficent...
Blueeyeddevil,
Yes it depends on how much income you made, Uncle sugar had this accerated depreciation schedule and more than a few of my contractors were able to save enough in buying a forklift under that program to offset any taxes they owed.. Yes it would have been foolish to write off more than you owed.. I hate to start talking about tax programs, They can be complicated and really available only to those who would have otherwise paid a big tax bill.
You are absolutely correct when you say the occasional user would be better off renting than buying.. We rent in order to sell cheaper forklifts.. I've sold forklifts with only 100 hours on them and I was able to sell it for $10,000 less than a shiny new one would have cost.. Rental is a win-win situation for us..
I've found though that if someone needs a forklift for 7 months of the year he can buy just as cheap as he can rent and in 5 years he will own it.. Once it's paid for you'd be amazed at how much more profit you make with a forklift than without a forklift..
One final point. Now that you've had your for a while, I'll bet you've found a bunch more uses than you originally thought of didn't you? Would you want to go back to the way you used to do it?
Frenchy, I'm right there with you thinking that forklifts are the greatest things since sliced bread. But I also agree with Blue, that they're not for everybody.
FWIW, to all who might be curious. A year ago, I had a five man crew including myself. Two of the four guys I employed were keepers. Good, hard, dependable, workers who were just as smart as I needed them to be. The other two were slackers. Clock watchers who were just there to pick up a check. But I needed those two idiots as much as I needed my good carps. They were basically there to handle material to keep me and my good guys producing and not lumping. I drove me nuts. I would watch them work remarkably hard..... at not working. I couldn't believe the effort they would put in to avoiding work. Between the two of them, I could usually count on one of them. I'd bet that I averaged two and a half days a week with all five of us on site. I had to hire two laborers.... just to know that I'd have one laborer at the ready.
It was sickening. Then I landed a frame where the site was horrible, the floor system consisted of 32' I joists and even longer LVLs.... and the money was good. So I rented a forklift for that job.
1/2 way through that job I quickly realized that I could easily lose one of my laborers and not see a loss in production. Beautiful. I kept the machine on for the next job. Then I started talking to forklift dealers. I decided on a Cat and went ahead and bought it. The day it showed up, my other laborer was checking it out. I jokingly said, "That's your replacement". I wasn't really joking... it was a shot across the bow.
To make a long story short (yeah, I know, too late) I've still got my two good carps, and that Cat. And that's it. And production hasn't dropped at all. I eliminated two $12/hr guys, a bunch of taxes, and knocked quite a bit off my W/C premium. And picked up a huge write off. We did have to shift gears a bit and learn to work a bit differently. The only two things that stand out in my mind as things I miss having laborers around for is cleaning up the site and nailing off hardware. What we usually do though is just all tag-team those two tasks by dedicating a few minutes at the end of the day and just blast it out together. That's about it.
I'm still learning more and more ways to use the forklift. Blue catches me all the time doing things manually that I should be using the forklift for. But it's a learning process. The machine is already paying for itself, so everything else that we get more efficient with is just gravy. As best I can tell, my machine costs me just under $12/ hr, at 2000 hrs a year. I've had it for 10 months and put about 200 hrs on it so I haven't even had to change the oil in it yet. Unlike an employee, the more hours we work... the less it actually costs me as most of the cost is a fixed with fuel and maintenance being the variables. I know it's only 10 months old, but I've yet to put a dime of maintenance into it other than a few tubes of grease. Another 50 months and it's mine.
It also hasn't called in sick yet or bummed coffee money off me either. ;)
dieselpig,
Thankyou, you just made my sales pitch for me.. I can honestly say that every single forklift I've sold I heard the comment, Why didn't I do this sooner..
Frenchy----try to get a grip.
the equipment you sell might be just the ticket for Blue, or Tim, or Dieselpig----assuming they use it as much as the think they are going to.
But it would be foolish----incredibly counter productive for me.
Yesterday---Monday 10-31-05 I recieved in the mail a check for work I did on Friday 10-28-05
check was for $980 and it was stapled to the following note:
" Mr. Hazlett,
Thank you for the excellent service you have provided to me. Not just for the repair work to my roof, but also for your professionalism, and quick response to my calls. It is rare to find someone who responds to a customer the way you have with me. I appreciate your honesty, and believe I was quoted a fair price for the work done. I will not hesitate to refer you to family, friends, and co-workers"
what did I do to earn that check AND that note?
Monday 10-24-05 I got a call from a prospective customer---he lives a few minutes away and works for a bank. He has a leak in his roof(valley)---needs a repair. I went out the same day and left him a proposal. I then phoned him at work to tell him I had left the proposal and to mention that whoever had tarped the roof had expanded the required repair area by about a factor of 300%
Tuesday 10-25-05 he called me from work to accept my proposal. I explained I was in the middle of a project that would require 2 more dry days to complete and so it would be about friday before I could handle his project. Weds. 10--26-05 he called to tell me that the tarp someone else had installed prior to my involvement was still leaking and could I or someone do something. I again explained that there was nothing I could do untill friday.
Friday---I did the project from start to finish---including drive time and picking up materials in 6-1/2 hours. Materials cost $126.54----grossing me roughly $853.46---or more importantly to me $131.30/hour
your equipment would have been useless to me-----even a laddervator would have LOWERED my productivity. 7 bundles needed to be carried up onto a garage roof---accross the roof and then up a 6ft. step ladder onto the main roof. I was able to go from the tailgate straight up the ladder. lift equipment etc. would have required me to either carry materials all the way around the house and then up and over the ridge top----a longer carry, OR would have got--at best the materials up on to the garage---I would STILL have to carry them the rest of the way.
Setting up a laddervator requires some heavy lifting itself----not worth it for 7 bundles of shingles, 1 roll of felt and a partial roll of icegaurd. I did each item myself, one by one AS NEEDED.
A laddervator or a lift would have saved NO time--- and added NO safety---it would have in fact added time to the project---and possibly added danger by requiring MORE heavy lifting. Assuming it added 15 minutes to the project------ it would take my rate down to $126.43/ Hour----not the direction I want to head LOL.
But----out of curiosity---what would a laborer have done for me?
In fairness---I prefer to work alone----but I also work very hard at maintaining good relationships with several subs that I team up with to handle bigger projects----reserving the most intricate---trouble prone work for myself. This spring however, I hired a young helper for about 2 1/2 months---lets use his figures.
He would have cost me $15/hour----he would have helped me with job set up( ladders etc.). he would have helped me with tearing off the repair area and clearing off the roof, he would have done the entire cleanup---which took me about an hour personally----and he would have done it at the same time I was making the repair. He also would have carried the materials up onto the roof. I would have been less tired from heavy lifting---and so could have roofed faster.
sooooo, $980- $126.54( materials)-$67.50 Laborer =$785.96. $785.96 devided by 4 1/2 hours works out to $174.65/ hour-------- THAT'S the direction I should be headed----since I am all about minimizing my hours worked and maximizing my dollars earned/hour ( 700 production ,300 overhead/year)
some people choose to try to increase volume worked by increasing productivity, lowering costs etc.
I do the opposite---I want to LOWER volume worked by INCREASING costs to the consumer---while doing such a good job that I get fanatical referalls---un-solicited. Every check doesn't arrive here with that nice of a note----but notes like that are not un-usuall at all.
your equipment might be just the ticket for Blue----but it would NOT help me achieve MY goals.---I am playing an entirely different game.
BTW---a few years ago my parish built a new church. I roofed it myself with one helper. It was the GC's responsibility to supply rooftop delivery of materials---which they did with a crane----and they did help us out by lifting a few extra bundles (12-15 if I remember right) with a LULL onto the roof of an adjacent school building. We still had to carry the bundles across the school roof and up 2 ladders onto the church.
Heavy lifting is part of what we are paid for.
Best wishes all,
Stephen
the equipment you sell might be just the ticket for Blue, or Tim, or Dieselpig----assuming they use it as much as the think they are going to.
As I stated previously, I've had a forklift on the job for nearly 4 years. It isn't whether we use it as much as we THINK we are going to, we use it more than we ever thought. I must not have been clear earlier.
This year my crew will frame about 18 houses depending on the weather. We've sided some of them and we will trim out one of them. We use a forklift every day on nearly every aspect of the building process, including trim at times.
I do understand what you are saying about YOUR circumstance though. But for residential construction, 40K is better spent on a forklift than on a big Ford or Dodge truck.
http://pic9.picturetrail.com/VOL293/2163851/4215098/106870194.jpg
Heavy lifting is part of what we are paid for.
True, but let's not be stupid about it (not implying you are). I love framing and want to keep doing this for a long long time. By letting a forklift do the heavy lifting, I can concentrate on doing a good job, trying new techniques, teaching the new guys, and I can go to the gym after work and play basketball or go climbing. And at the same time, get more production out of the same amount of hours. It's a win-win for me.
I'll tell you this though, I'm glad you took the stand you did, it always makes for a better discussion :-)
Best wishes in return.
Tim,
I am glad you showed that picture----I think it proves BOTH of our points.
clearly---it shows how your equipment is usefull to you., during new construction.
But----lets look at that picture---and imagine what that house and yard is going to look like 50-60 years from now. Right where the fork lift is will probably be a perrenial bed, the lawn will be lush and well established-------further back behind that bed will maybe be a Japanese maple worth thousands------there will be fences etc.
Basically---there will be NO way for me to work in anykind of lift under discussion. ( other than from the driveway)
most of my projects are on houses pre wwII--or immediately after wwII.---the majority date to the 1920's-----very mature neighborhoods, extensive landscaping etc.----It's often LESS about the actual roof---and MORE about protecting everything else.
RE: heavy lifting-----it's not what you lift----but how much and how fast. 1 bundle a day up a 2 story ladderx365 days a year---no problem
365 bundles up a 2 story ladder in 1 day---big problem! LOL
but to carry a bundle up a ladder every 15-20 minutes---no big deal----in fact it gives me a chance to get up and stop working bent over---use a different set of muscles---- change of pace------ I resist the assembly line mentality----THAT leads to injury---not a little heavy lifting in moderation. When working solo I rarely work more than 5-6 hours a day---because THAT'S how long I can work at the pace I expect of myself.
there is more than one way to skin a cat( profitably)---isn't there?
Stephen
Not that you need a lawyer or anything....
But for the record... I'm in complete agreement with you. What are you gonna do, buy a six wheel dump truck and a low bed trailer to drive you and your machine to work everyday? I'm sure Mrs Jones won't fret about you parking a 20,000lb machine on her tulips either.
New construction and forklifts are a match made in heaven. A service oriented business such as yours however, would not benefit from a forklift in my opinion. It would just be a logistical nightmare to move the thing around everyday never mind the fact that you can get rooftop deliveries for your bigger jobs anywho.
Just my two cents.
RE: heavy lifting-----it's not what you lift----but how much and how fast. 1 bundle a day up a 2 story ladderx365 days a year---no problem
365 bundles up a 2 story ladder in 1 day---big problem! LOL
I agree partially, but don't forget repetive motion injuries (ie typing) :-)
Tim,
the repetitive injury situation is an excellent point !
I think, in my case, having a lift would make me MORE prone to repetitive injuries.
A couple of the great things about working alone are that you can largely work at your own pace----and that you are doing a larger variety of tasks. ( less repetitive)
A lift---would certainly carry shingles-----but would eliminate my chance to get up and move around as often----I would spend an increased ratio of work time hunched over in a "bad" position.
when I have a crew working---we usually try for the most eficient methods------that leads to specialization---one guy humping shingles, one guy felting in ahead of 2 guys doing nothing but shingling-----------working bent over like that seems like more of a strain than carrying a few shingles .
One thing I am wondering about-------
you mentioned that you frame, I believe, 14 houses a year.
Have you ever calculated at what point the lift becomes a problem for you?
Is it still good business at 10 houses a year? 8?,----6?
I have a few tools on my truck that I can't imagine doing without----that have proved their importance to me for years
BUT---in my garage I have a few things that I wish I had never bought-------they worked as designed( no problem)---they just never became as valuable to me as I had calculated----and hauling them around and setting them up caused more work than they saved. ( A $250 shingle shear and a $400 aluminum pic come to mind)
so----my negative mind wonders at what volume does one of those lifts fall into the " gee I wish I had never bought THAT" category?
Best wishes All, Stephen
Laddervators.......
What a good awful invention. I had one for about a year and hated every second of it. Just when you got rolling, the thing would run out of gas. Where's the gas can? Empty in the back of the truck that just got sent to p/u materials. They'd probably be great if you just shingled two story 4/12 roofs. I think I've only ever done one of those.
On the other hand ( and I'm not trying to convince you to buy anything ), the equipment I've bought in the last year (boom lift, dump trailer, alumapole system) has made my work sites safer and reduced the strain on tired backs. Both of those things have increased productivity.
We don't use everything on every job. The dump trailer gets used when there's no room or not enough debris for a dumpster. The boom lift gets used for high work or in the case of an upcoming job, to lift 117 sq of shingles as well as personel to a 3 story 12/12.
The alumapole has pretty much gone directly from job to job since I've owned it.
If you're working alone doing repair work, you don't need all this stuff. In fact, if you limit your scope to one story houses with in two blocks of your house, you could get by without a truck. You could just pack all the stuff on your back in several trips.
I have no use for a forklift. Sure, there's times when I could use one, but I can't justify owning one, just as you can't justify a dump truck.
I do know for a fact, that I can get more done with more profit in certain situations with a boom lift than I can with a helper that costs me the same per hour.
See the attached pic. I did this job by myself with a boom lift. The cornice/box gutter was torn completely off the house and it had three layers of shingles on it. My son bent some of the pans and did some cleanup/dump runs. No scaffold was used.
Oh yeah, I've got a shingle shear also. I use the hell out of it when I shingle, but nobody else likes it. When Duane, shingled a round turret, he used it a lot to great advantage. It's not necessary on every job, but it's saved me more than the $250 I paid for it.Birth, school, work, death.....................
Greencu,
I bought the shingle shear when I was roofing some LARGE condos ( there were 8 or 10 condo buildings---and about 12 garages that were bigger than houses)
Each roof had a LONG left hand rake---and I would pre-cut the "starts" to step up the left hand rake----was never able to figure out how to effectively use the shear on right hand rakes
A couple of years ago I did a church roof with 50 year Elks---had , I think about an 80ft. rake---used the shear there as well
Got my money out of it---for sure----but I haven't used it since-------not really worth it on a house.
the pic------ I have used it maybe 6-8 times since I bought it----It IS handy---but for me---not worth the set up time---and it's so freaking heavy.
You work at one location much longer than me----so the set up time becomes less of a factor. I am at a different place every day---sometimes several places in a day----never more than a few days anywhere----------
Mike Smith posted some pictures of his alumapole set up recently.
Granted----on a lot of steeper roofs it would be very handy-------
but it looked like he had it set up on a quite walkable roof----the time spent on that setup would have driven me CRAZY. I Believe I am safer on a walkable roof than I am on a pic-----but it is probably more a matter of what you are used to.
But----isn't small business GREAT ?
I can do things MY way, You can do things YOUR way, Mike can do things Mikes' way, Tim can do things Tim's way. We can each study the situation and determine our own solutions. I am always looking to steal a good idea from somebody
Having those options is worth MORE than the money.
Best wishes All, Stephen
the time spent on that setup would have driven me CRAZY.
I probably wouldn't have set the alumapole up for the job that Mike showed, but from what I saw of that setup, if I didn't have to carry the pics too far, I could probably set that up by myself in less than an hour. I'm sure he saved more than an hour by having that set up, especially on controlling tear off. Hauling time is where the difference would be. I've got a trailer dedicated to scaffolding. We pull it up to the job and take off what we need and leave the rest on it until we need it somewhere else.
always looking to steal a good idea from somebody
Yup. That's the main reason I'm here.Birth, school, work, death.....................
you guys must be talking about ##Simple Roof ##..
i decided when i bought our Alum-a-pole setup that our SOP would be "stage the entire eave"
one reason.. we don't use fall-arrest.. and we're almost always fixing the fascia, or installing new gutter, or refastening existing gutter ( this one was refastening existing .. all the "spike & ferrule " was pulling out.. we installed fascia hangers w/ SS screws 2' oc )
the other reason.. we can reach 3 ' up the roof .. enough room to get our first 3' on and then set a plank... we always set a plank for a toe board unless the roof was like that one... i think that was a 4 pitch.... .. but anything over 4 pitch we set at least the bottom plank..
the other reason is... we do a lot of roofs.. but we are not roofers.. we don't move like roofers, we move like carpenters.. my guys work a lot better when they feel confident about their footing.. and there is no better footing than that sidewalk in the sky ( the Alum-a-pole 20" pic )..
i saw a crew from Brazil a couple months ago, roofed a new house , 12/12 pitch, 30 sq...... one day... no planks .. one ladder....
just walked the whole thing.... Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
i saw a crew from Brazil a couple months ago, roofed a new house , 12/12 pitch, 30 sq...... one day... no planks .. one ladder....
just walked the whole thing....
Like a Superpower it's amazing what they can do, just by simply shaving a patch of hair.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Mike, I've seen the guys shingling the 12/12's without planks too. White guys no less! They used foam cushions. I was impressed with their speed and quality.
On the other hand, your program makes sense too. I like the idea of having that continuous safety landing zone. You obviously build the cost of setting up and tearing down into your price structure and I commend you for that. If I was a remodeler I'd appreciate that extra safety factor.
I'm not sure that I'd put toe boards on a 6/12 if I had that alumapole already up, but thats your call to make. I know it doesn't take much to put up the jacks, especially if your working off a scaffold. More power to you for running an ultra safe job. Please don't petition OSHA for us to do the same though. If you hold your petition, I'll hold mine.
I do agree too that when you build in enough safety, everyone moves easier and that translates into time savings.
For our roughs, I'll continue to stick with the continuous "T" kickboard on the bottoms. They are plenty safe enough and their very handy for staging tools and kickers.
blue
well, you've seen them, i've seen them....
apparently OSHA hasn't seen them...
whadda ya think the fine would be if i tried that ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
F osha.
blue
Mike------ the position your guys are accustomed to is a big factor in productivity.
your guys are accustomed to the work on the pic---from siding work etc.
most of the roofers I am around are terrified to step out on that pic----they feel much safer on the roof( I know I do LOL)
In my former life as a chrome plater----the older guys---many european immigrants---who worked as benchmen in the mold and machine shops kept everything up on huge metal horses etc.---prefering to work " errect"
5 years later---when I quit that line of work---southeast asians were coming into favor as the prefered benchman---specifically the HMONG immigrants. they left everything on the floor----preferring to climb all over it, sit on it, crawl inside it.
It's a cultural thing---look at medieval illustrations of european carpenters and medieval japanese carpenters---same diferences displayed.
Most of the roofers I have associated with are better adapted to climbing, squating,kneeling, crawling---a more intimate contact with the roof deck---then typical american carpenters would tolerate.
On the plus side---that walker you showed---our crews would generally have that side of the roof torn off and in the dumptruck in an hour or so---and completed before 3:00.
would they have been safer?---I don't know for sure.
I do know---even in my current state of " fattitude"----- somethings are safer for me than they are for other people.
Best wishes, All
Stephen
Stephen,
We'll frame 18 this year and last year was similar. When we bought our first forklift, we were doing about 8 a year, but we did all the foundation work, siding and framing and some flatwork. As far as at what volume would I rethink the forklift? As long as I was working full time, the forklift would be worth having. It is so useful for siding. That pic that I posted of the three story house. I framed and sheathed the gable on the front (4th story) in 20 minutes. I timed it. That included getting the materials. To side with the cedar, took about 40 minutes, I timed that too. Of course those were the Cedar Valley shake panels which helped a lot, but if I had to setup scaffolding. . . .
To be honest, a person can't argue against a forklift on a residential site (or commercial for that matter) unless he is a framer or sider who has done it both ways. I've set up staging to side 3 story buildings, no alumipole, just ladders and ladder jacks. It takes forever and is dangerous. I've humped rafters and sheathing up two flights of stairs to frame and sheathe the roof. That is just not wise. I've done everything the hard way, so I appreciate the forklift. And a forklift is not just used to lift materials.
But at this point, typing may give me an injury that prevents me from using the controls in a forklift so I should stop :-)
Stephen, I agree with your statements regarding repetitive injuries.
Often, when I'm stocking something, I know I could stock more, but I don't. I don't because I realize that I want to get up and move in a different manner too. I do this in many, many facets of my daily grind.
blue
Blue,
Isn't your panelized framing similar to assembly line production? I don't think a machine on a jobsite in any way leads to repetitive motion injuries. I couldn't disagree more strongly with the premise (not stated by you) that it would. I read that and sat back and imagined all the things I might do on wall framing day. Because of a forklift, I don't have to put studs on my shoulders and carry them upstairs for an hour (repetitious), then bend over and frame the walls. I could go on and on.
Oh well, this thread has been interesting. I would like to start a thread on creative ways to use forklifts. Now that would be cool and I think you've shown that your crew can be very creative :-)
Hazlett,
I can tell you that since he's had his for 4 years and it takes 5 to pay it off, he's down to the point where one or two houses will pay for it and starting next year when it is paid off, he will make about 20% more than without one, while paying for one or two less guys.. That's pure profit.. Plus he has an asset worth about $50,000 that should he need to he can use for colaterail on a loan.
Do you hand nail everything?
or do you hook up an air compressor and nail guns for a lot of work? (note I didn't say every job)
I suspect you use a nail gun even though hand nailing would be cheaper.
Forklifts serve the same function.. labor saving.. They don't build the house, they just make it easier to build it and faster and safer..
One final point.. When I roofed my house I never was hunched over in an awkward position. the platform goes up and dow in tiny fractions of an inch if you wnt it so all your work is at a comfortable position..
frenchy----you are projecting your limmited experience in roofing with one-------and assuming it holds true in the wider range.
3 basic roofing positions 1) sitting on the cushion,2) kneeling on the cushion,4) standing on the cushion.
On all roofs 8/12 and below---working (hunched over) is simply a fact of life. ( like laying carpet)
Typically I will use all 3 positions EVERY bundle---to use different muscle groups.
Using the lift as you maintain that you do---would be counter productive---if you were actually trying to work at a professional pace and earn a living.
also---many times your lift would not reach/fit-----between dormers-----between chimney and dormer---many tight spots.
Stephen
BTW----I am returning to handnailing more and more when I work alone----because I like it---I enjoy the rithym. Often---(but by no means always)--it's actually more productive than gun nailing---no air compressor set up, no air hoses to drag around and trip over, no compressor or hoses to put away----it's particularly beneficial in colder weather.
I will often have a crew gun nailing---while I handle a detail area hand nailing.
Edited 11/3/2005 8:13 am ET by Hazlett
If frenchy used that logic he couldn't afford those $1,000 suits. ;-)
that's pretty funny Dustin! LOL
imagine my foolishness at not simply accepting the figures presented by a salesman?
but wondering how a proposal would work in my particular situation?
I am sure Frenchy is an excellent salesman---in fact phsychologically I admire his remarks about "3rd grade math"----I think it's pretty clever because it effectively implies to the guy standing there in jeans and muddy boots that if he doesn't accept the salesmans figures at face value---he must be dumber than a 3rd grader.
( I have had a car salesman AND a realtor at different times use similar approaches)
However----those of us who eventually made it through junior high Math ( LOL)----know that 3rd grade math doesn't effectively describe the more complicated world around us.
but----you know me-----
worlds' worst salesman---and poor math skills to boot,Stephen
Hazlett,
You stated something I never meant or said or implied. My comment about 2 nd grade math is that even I who flunked algebra understand the costs involved. I would never insult a customer. (first it's bad business and second I've had too many people who say no and later come back to me because I treat them with respect)
To review.
It takes 5 years to pay for one..
Wile you are paying for it it should pay for itself in labor savings alone.. {and show a slightly greater return than not using one}
Once paid for it's cost is nominal and yet the labor savings and increased productivety remains for another 20 years or so..
That is pretty simple math. adding gains and subtracting costs..
Please note I didn't once mention tax benefits (which ownership affords you) or anything difficult to understand..
Frenchy:
Along this line, I've got a friend who's owned a cabinet shop for over twenty years. He's never taken delivery on an edge bander although he's paid for one several times over by hand-laminating edges. There's no talking to him, he's convinced he can't afford one.
Edgebander or forklift, if you're not using the most efficient methods to do your job, you are paying for the tool/equipment/whatever anyway, you might as well take delivery.
Kowboy
Edgebander or forklift, if you're not using the most efficient methods to do your job, you are paying for the tool/equipment/whatever anyway, you might as well take delivery.
Man you said a mouthful there!
I'm going to steal those lines and use them myself.
Doug
Frenchy---- I may have misquoted you when I said " 3rd grade math"
what you actually said was " 2nd grade math"
I refer you to your posts 65041.28 & 65041.29
you DID say it---wether you meant it or implied it---I will leave to your own conscience.
Stephen
while I am at it Frenchy
Look back at post 65041.87
the word " minor" ?????
I assure you Frenchy, in almost EVERY case---the problems I am paid to solve are THE major issue in that customers life at that time---every thing else is taking a backseat.
And where did I ever say I don't take fall protection seriously?- Especially since it's a situation I face every day?
you have a vested interest in promoting the use of this equipment----I certainly respect that. there are a LOT of guys here who would benefit from your equipment
however----as bad of a salesman as I am---I still recognize your skilled sales techniques in action----- your implication that folks that don't swallow your figures are incapable of 2nd grade math---that people who don't buy your product don't care about fall protection, etc.---I recognize them--and admire them.
Best wishes, Stephen
Hazlett,
Yes if you normally do minor jobs and don't worry about fall protection you don't have any regular need for equipment.
You also don't need it to install cabinets or do HVAC work.. In fact there may be less people who check in here that need it than those that don't.
I'm sorry if you felt that I was saying they are an absolute must for ANYONE! I do know how many people see them and feel that they don't need one.. Some of them become my customers and when they've had it for a while I can count on hearing the following statement, Why didn't I do this sooner!
Stephen,
If you don't build houses for a living then you really don't need a forklift.. If time means little and money means less than you don't need a forklift. The multitude of uses for a forklift are great. from framing to roofing to siding & trim and installing windows they are the most cost effective way to build..
With a forklift the standard crew consists of three. A lead carpenter who can read blueprints and run the crew, a carpenter capable of doing most building tasks under direction and a general laborer.. (novice, new guy, beginner etc.)
As for my vested interest, well if you don't live in Minnesota then I can't sell you a forklift. thus I have no vested interest in the other 49 states.. (well I can sell in western Wisconsin and there are three brands of the 5 that I sell that I can sell anyplace in the country but since I refuse to sell those other four brands it's a really a mute point).
I hope the concept of a telehandler isn't new to you, I've been selling them for 15 years and they've been available for 25+ years. In my time I've gone from an industry wide sales of less than 500 per year to approximately 15,000 new telehandlers sold per year..
Nobody buys on of these because they make a big bragging rights thing, I don't see anybody driving them to the drive-in on Friday night to show them off.. <G> They buy them because they make economic sense..
If you doubt me and you're in my state, try it. rent one for a while, I'll apply 100% of the rent towards the purchase less 1% per month as an interest cost thing.. If you don't persuade yourself then return it, I won't be offended one little bit. (the next guy who gets it will simply get it a little cheaper). I will say that well over 95% of those who take one out on rent wind up buying it. the other 5% simply get out of the business.(* that isn't a industry standard so check and see what the dealer will do for you prior to committing).
One final point.. If you aren't a steady builder or you don't do that much work, then rental will be your solution.. However I have several clients who refuse to purchase and thus far they've more than paid for it twice over and still don't own one..
Your dump truck isn't really a good example.. maintinace, insurance, and fuel on a truck compared to the expense of owning a forklift is dramatically higher. If trucking is your business than you should own a truck, if however building is your business than anything that cuts your cost of building should be looked at very carefully.. I don't know where you are but if it's outside of Minnesota where I can't sell I'll be glad to help you calculate the real cost benefit ratio. That way you know that you'll get information straight from the horses mouth..
xxPaulCPxx
yes Paul there is, every new forklift I've sold since 1995 included a mechanical lock out device. something to absolutely prevent the boom from dropping..Prior to that it was optional but I've never sold a machine without one..
But more than that every single forklift I've sold includes a flow restrictor in every hydraulic circuit. It is a device that limits the rate of flow to what is designed into the machine NO MATTER WHAT! another words, while the boom will come down, it will come down in a controlled fashion. Go ahead take an axe to the hydraulic hose and chop it right off. (or tear it off somehow or neglect maintinace enough so that it eventually weather checks enough to fail) and the boom will come down no faster than it would if someone was in the cab operating the controls.
Every machine has a differant rate but none of them slam down under any circumstances..
Thanks, that's what I was wondering.Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
By the time OSHA got done regulating that use for the forklifts you probably could not reach out of your garbage box.
I agree Arrowpov!
Actually, I was trying to invent a garbage box extension. I'm thinking of adding a swing down apron. Maybe a 4' x 8' platorm. Open on both ends. Any engineer inventors want to help with the design details? All input welcome.
blue
Blue,
For me it would all depend on how much work you have and what type of work you have and of you own the machine and where you can keep it other than on the job.
I haven't read through all the posts but I don't know if it was mention already but I think if you frame houses all year around you should definitely have a fork lift. That house that I framed and posted pictures of using the fork lift was a dream.
Now if you frame additions it would be hard to use and get around on some of these jobs because the properties are to small.
Like I said, if you frame all new houses all year then a fork lift is the way to go.
"Anyone agree? Should OSHA require forklifts on every frame job?"
It would be impossible for them to do that on additions but not new homes.
Joe, obviously some of my comments have been tongue in cheek, but I seriously believe that if OSHA can demand that saw guards and steel toes should be in place, they should also demand that lifts be onsite and used where possible.
In this theoretical discussion, your dilemma is that you don't do enough full time frames. My repsonse is tough, then you should just have to sub out the addtition frames to a "qualifed" subcontractor if it is possible to get a forkift involved on each particular addition. Or, you shouldn't be allowed to bid a job if your not properly equipped. In the event that a forklift can't be used, there should be some strict lifting regulations or maybe some other alternatives. Perhaps a bobcat with forks could be required on small additions.
My goal is to reduce the possibility of back injuries. Forklifts and heavy equipment do an excellent job of that.
Now please understand that I'm a Libertarian at heart and this is 180 degrees from a true Libertarians beliefs. I'm just trying to point out that ours can be a very hard and demanding job and it can be a very easy job too. It all depends on the techniques and equipment available onsite.
blue
framer,
There are several smaller forklifts that are great for framers.. Not the usual big machine but closer to a skid steer in size (with smaller capablity) Yep! they tear up the lawn, but you can replace a lot of sod for the cost of one back injury. Plus they meet the requirement that so many builders have (they want to haul it themselves rather than go to outside haulers)
If I were King of OSHA it would be simple common sense.. Trying to grunt a big bow window up a couple of ladders is so risky as to be criminal. (I don't care how many times you've done it, you can drive drunk on a regular basis and never get into an accident, the risk is still there!)
Blue:
Seriously, go ahead- save those backs. That's what machines are for- to eliminate dumb-@ssed labour. Just make sure of one thing: nobody gets behind the controls of one of those units without proper training. No different than putting somebody behind the wheel of any vehicle.
We had a smart, seasoned millwright drop a piece of equipment off the forks of a rental boom forklift because he was over-confident, wasn't trained on the particular equipment he was using, didn't have the outriggers down and had a bad estimate of the weight. Once the load starts to go there's precious little you can do except shout "look out below!". The repair on what was dropped will be more than the materials cost on a typical house (one of the downsides of the business we're in!).
Very fortunately, we had the area under the lift secured and that load didn't fall on anybody or anything other than the concrete floor. And nobody was PART of the load either. Another big risk with lifts is the STRONG temptation to use them as a totally unsafe work platform. Not everybody builds themselves a proper platform like yours, and there's always the situation where the proper platform would be in the way.
As a DIYer I made good use of supplier delivery equipment. Cheaper and safer than renting a lift yourself if you don't know what you're doing! I had the drywall boomed in and paid the guy a few extra bucks to throw my windows and walk-out door up to the 2nd floor at the same time. I also had the shingles delivered to the roof deck- that's the only way to fly. And yes, we humped a lot of framing material, but I did a fair bit of it with a winch to save the back. Actually, my back feels way better after this season of hard use than it has in years of this @#*(ing desk job!