Here is a question for you legal types or just those who are in the know. My mothers neighbor who moved in about 2-3 years ago has decided that he thinks that the property lines are wrong and he is planning to put up a fence. He is claiming that the measurements should be taken from the center of the current road. The document that he has produced does not appear to be what I would consider to be official. It has the street names spelled wrong and has only a few measurements. It is also possibly 100 years old. From my experiences with surveying reports there lots of numbers associated with every point longitude & latitude degrees minutes seconds. I was involved in selling some farm land last Monday and the legal description of the land was 1/2 page. and one of the cornerposts was concrete with a serial # cast in it.
He is also claiming property on the other side of his lot. Going for the big land grab.
My mom has owned this house for about 12 years and we have always gone by the stakes in the ground as have the previous owners going back for the past 40 plus years. When she first moved in she was even shown the stakes by the neighbor to help identify the property line.
So one question is since we have maintained the property for the past 12 years and the previous owners maintained it for another 30 years with all parties agreeing on the property line, does this matter?
When the house was purchased there was title insurance purchased. Will that help? The lawyer who handled the sale drowned a couple of years ago so he is of no help. Losing 20′ on a 100′ wide lot would definitely be a financial hit.
When your building a house how verify the property lines wont be disputed in 50 years?
Who is responsible for the expense of verifying where the lot lines belong when there is a dispute?
Replies
Simple- get a survey done. Anything else is is just guessing no matter what the history of neighbors.
find yourself a good survetor and lawyer.
the servayor know where to go for the info to lay out the property.
might cost >$500 cause he'll have to start from some benchamrk some distance away.
tell them why you want it surveyed
who knows, maybe this guy wants it surveyed and doesn't want to pay for it. this way the people on both sides pay.
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bobl Volo, non valeo
Can't answer all your questions but I had my .30-acre city lot surveyed 2 years ago. Cost $550 to find and mark the corners and the center of the property line on the curved front of the lot (by the way, the actual property line is about 1' in from the sidewalk) so I could determine the front setback before I build a porch. The surveyers got the legal property description from the city and used established survey markers embedded in the street as a base to the front corners.
We would need to have a permit in SLC to put in a fence, including measurements to the nearest buildings and property lines. If I had a neighbor like your mother's and he refused to listen to reason, I would wait until he was ready to start construction and notify the building dept with survey in hand showing that he was encroaching on my property and let them bring it to his attention by closing down the job (that's assuming he pulled a permit - if not, the city would be interested in that aspect as well). That would probably rectify the situation without incurring attorney's fees.
Edited 10/25/2004 4:14 pm ET by Don From Utah
Yes, what the others said -- a survey is the way to go. On our first house we bought years back, the lots were tiny, just 40x50. And it was kind of obvious that our garage extended a little too close to the neighbors. So, we had a survey done (before the closing) and sure enough the corner of the garage and 1 foot of the driveway was on the neighbor's property.
But, since it had been this way for 80+ years, he had no recourse other than to ask us for $5k to settle the matter. Of course we thanked him for his offer and went on with our lives. Since (a) it had been like than for so long, (b) he knew it when he bought his property, and (c) he was an absentee-landlord who showed up once every few months and didn't really care about this property, he quickly granted us an easement.
6
Our neighbor just had a survey done to put up a fence. She had 3 corners marked, plus the lines were marked at 25 ft intervals between corners. They used reference points one and two blocks away. The company charged $120/hr for a two man team. The guy I talked to said their equipment was accurate to 1/100". Interestingly, the surveyed lines are all off from the established property lines. For instance, the front corner encroaches about 4 inches into my driveway slab. But at the back corner, my garage side wall, which is flush with the driveway slab, is about 8 inches inside the property line. So we are talking a gradual error of about 1 ft over 100 ft. We pulled out the 100 ft tape and sure enough this error is present in 3 adjacent properties based on the assumed/established property lines. My neighbors fence on the other side cuts into my property about 8 inches. I guess when the lots were surveyed 100 years ago there might have been this amount of error in their equipment, or perhaps the builder just got sloppy. It looks like all houses on the street were built by the same person as they all share similar craftsman features, such as how the ends are cut on the exposed beams.
So at some point this could become an issue based on the surveyed points, but one would also have to consider if a judgement might be based on the established lines.
As for title insurance, I believe that is protection against liens, taxes, and other judgements against the title deed.
If you can get a number of people involved, the cost of surveying property lines is reduced dramatically. There is also an additional cost if the survey is registered with the county. From what I observed, it took the surveyers about 2 hrs to establish their reference point, and another hour to mark the other two corners. With a long tape, it is pretty easy to determine the other non critical corners.
Your neighbor is foolish if he thinks he can just put up a fence. If it is on your property, the fence comes down, period. In many cases, people sometimes benefit when a neighbor puts up a fence, since the neighbor will sometimes put the fence up a foot within the property line, thus your yard grows slightly. In our area, they are specific that *all* parts of the fence must be contained within the property line, which includes the concrete around the post.
As for title insurance, I believe that is protection against liens, taxes, and other judgements against the title deed.
Partly. Common misconception is that it's insurance that the title is good. Nope. What it amounts to is a promise to legally defend the title against all comers. If they lose, you lose. But they don't insure anything in question.
The reason most lenders require title insurance is to get a thorough title search. Problems might crop up, making insurability difficult. A lender needs to know about that before fronting the money. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Not quite.
Title insurance makes the company defend any claim against the property, but also makes them pay you if the suit is lost. Just like any other insurance.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Hasbeen, have you ever read all the exceptions in a title policy?
By the time their done exceptin' there aint nothing left to claim!
Title insurance is a huge scam....but as long as you need a loan....you're going to have to pay...
blueIf you want to read a fancy personal signature... go read someone else's post.
Unfortunately, I've read lots of 'em. I'm a real estate broker.
I agree that the title insurance companies do a major CYA job, but I've seen 'em pay, too.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
That's not what my title insurance policy says, which is common here. The insurance is solely for the title defense.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Must vary state to state... I'm just familiar with Colorado.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
"Title insurance makes the company defend any claim against the property, but also makes them pay you if the suit is lost. "
Not ANY claim.
Only those that are covered by the policy.
In general they cover claims agains t he TITLE, not the "physical" property.
They typically have exclusions against broundy line disputes.
Of course. Thanks for clarifying my post.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Check with your building department. In my town, you have to have a survey in order to pull a permit for any fence within 24" of the property line.
Is that all fences? We are allowed to build up to a 6 footer with no permit, but with the caveat that you are SOL if it is on your neighbors property line. Similarly, we have no setback on decks less than 30 inches high, which also don't require a permit. The reasoning seems to be that as things get higher, they may have a tendency to fall over or get blown over.
Thats the way it was put to me. All fences thought to be within two feet of a property line are required to first show proof of survey.
Start with the laywer. He can read the legal description in your deed and in your neighbor's. Perhaps that would be enough to establish who is right. If not, your lawyer will recommend a survey. The few real estate lawyers I've dealt with have been very sharp about matters like these.
A lawyer won't do any good. While he can read the decriptions, starting at the NE corrner of section 23, township 75, Southerly along the James Rd RW to for a distance of 234.12 ft, etc, etc.
But he can't tell you where that point is.
The survery is the first step.
Maybe you can ask SHGLAW or another of the lawyers on this site (is Bob Walker a lawyer?). I think that since your mother has maintained a certain parcel of property as hers for 12 years, that whatever she thought she owned she now indeed does own through something called "adverse possession". I'm not a lawyer, but I understand that if you maintain a property and act as if it is yours for longer than seven years, it in fact is yours, no matter what the deed and the legal boundaries say. I would definitely contact a real lawyer and see what your mom's rights are--don't let that guy bulldoze her! Good luck!
I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that it varires from state to state. I believe that in most places the time period for adverse possession is 18 or 19 years. The seven years that people mention is usually for "easement by prescription", a different matter.You're unique! Just like everyone else! Scott Adams
Personally - I would START by going to town hall and buying copies of her plot plan and also the neighbors plot plan. This may save her the cost of getting surveyors and lawyers, etc and will only cost her a copying fee.
Abe, I can speak with some certainty about how things are done here in Michigan. your state might be different, but it probably isn't that much different.
Here's my qualifications: I bought a house on a lake about 8 years ago. my daughter and her husband bought one next door to us from the same seller. To make a long story short, they sold us the wrong legal description. The "proper" legal description had been "re-described" about 6 years earlier because all the lot lines were running through the center of the houses (there were 9 lots developed, with 6 houses on them). The seller simply forgot that they had a new description and sold us their old description. Then we found out the legal description had been mistakenly created using quit claim deeds signed by non-owners. It was a mess.
Here's the short part of the story: we spent $15,000 fixing these legal descriptions. Our original lawyer, who screwed up his end of the deal was past his statute of limitations becasue 2 YEARS HAD PASSED. (If you sense a little anger there....you are very intuitive). I couldn't sue my lawyer for malpractive even though it was a slam dunk. The title insurance policy had a glaring exemption that our lawyer should have challenged. I now know how to read, interpret, and challenge every single item on a title policy! We would have had to invest about another 15k to sue the sellers, but because of shared fault, it was possible that we would only win half....which would be 15k! I passed on suing on principle.
Anyways, back to your situation. I'm semi-involved in a dispute that is almost identical to yours. Our (my friend is being sued by one of the homeowners in this re=description debacle) case went to court after 2 years of haggling. I was sequestered because I will be a witness for my friend. My friend is claiming about 20 feet of the neighbors property....actually the neighbor's propert is 20' west of where he thinks it is.
Heres what I have learned is important: Start documenting every conversation that you have with your neighbor, and all parties that have any knowledge of this situation. Document with very clear pictures those stakes in the ground that have been the property corner for the last 52 years (your 12 plus 40 before that). Make absolute sure that they are not moved, tampered with or removed. Do something immediately to solidify them. Get all your friendly neighbors to verify that those stakes exist, and that they can precisely identify where they are. Get the original neighborhood people involved too...have them identify the stakes and get them on your side fast!
The reason I'm telling you this is because those corners/stakes will mean more than your legal description when push comes to shove.
Next, do not allow that neighbor to infringe in any way on the road (you will lose it if you let him do anything to it), on your property, or whatever. Call the sheriff immediately if you see any signs of your neighbor digging.
If I was you, I would quietly gather all the supplies and I would "pre-emptively" put up and entire fence along your lot line. I would wait till the neighbor was gone for the day and get the entire thing up, even if it was just a simple wooden posts sunk into dirt and laced with 1x6 on top. Don't worry about permits or anything.....it will take the city years to force you to remove them.
When your neighbor sees that you have effectively "staked your territory" his only alternative is to sue you in a civil court. The burden of proof will be on him. He will have to pay for a survey. If you agree with the survey, then fine, move the fence. If you don't agree with the survey, hold your ground until he files in court. Then start spending your money on surveys, which may very well show that those stakes are incorrect.
Your legal ground will hinge on your ability to show that the road, and your lot, was there long enough to satify the "squatter's rights" laws.
Notice I didn't say "run to a lawyer" or get a survey? Those things will cost you money...and won't amount to a hill of beans in this fight.....yet. The survey might actually damage your claim.
I could go on for another hour....
blue
Yes indeed, a survey might damage your claim. About 5 years ago I remodeled a house we owned and made changes to the exterior on a side that appeared to be exactly 4 feet from the property line. The required setback was 4 feet and our architect at the time measured to a retaining wall and concluded that we had 4 feet. The city plan checker did not ask for a survey. Later on the neighbor on that side started making noises about doing some substantial and ugly remodeling, and I wanted to know if perhaps we actually owned a few extra inches that would make his plans difficult or impossible. I know a few surveyors and one of them came over and shot a 'one-liner' for me for $500. Turns out the neighbor actually owned 6 inches on our side of the wall that would have made MY remodeling difficult or impossible had we known.
You could have a surveyor do a one liner, and you might or might not like what you find out. You could have a lawyer describe the rules around 'adverse possession' or whatever it's called, and you might or might not like that either.
Our current neighbor went in with us on a common fence. We agreed that the line would be the line of the old fence. As far as I know that amounts to a legally defensible determination that the line is where the fence is... something to do with mutually accepted... something... or other.
Overall my advice is to first confirm what the survey is going to show as cheaply as possible and then be prepared to pay for the survey yourself - the cost is worth it. Act pre-emptively - before he builds a fence or erases any sign of current use.
We have had rminor egrets about having gone with title insurance over a new survey when buying current house (core urban residential). Waiting for a survey would have lost the deal.
Our street holds houses and driveways, alternating, with not an extra inch of sideyard. Technically, the legal lot lines lie somewhere in the middle of each driveway which we treat as private. Everyone gets one house and one complete driveway, and landscapes accordingly. So, if we really think about it (which we don't), each pickett-fenced backyard technically includes a one or two foot-wide swath of the neighbour's property to the West but gives up a matching swath to the East. We know we have the right to access the West sides of our houses, but kindly don't store crap there. If only current city planners had the wisdom to use 30 foot wide lots in such a friendly and elegant layout ...
So, here's where we think we dodged a bullet. The young family next door took down the 60-year old wire fence, then started negotiating about a replacement and were mimping to gain somewhat. Not a huge difference, but so many people on this planet just live to win an extra inch for themselves ... and it got our hackles up.
We smiled a teflon smile and said "Great! Of course it's going back exactly where it was, what a nice tradition to uphold. Glad you feel the same." We just pretended to hear nothing else (the wise fence-builders, btw, saw it as a potential mess for them and would not push the old line.)
But we carefully evaded the subject of a survey. If the survey had been done while the 1940 fence was in place - no problem: new grandfathered property lines for sure. But with it gone? I could just see these bozos getting a great new idea for a fence down the middle of our old garage - or maybe trying for its removal as 'suddenly' encroaching ...
We're not worried today, but if we see FOR SALE on either side, we're getting that survey fast. Your time is now.
I've surveyed in Texas for 30 years, so I know the laws here, but I don't know what state you're in, but I'm sure they're different.
First, do your research. Go to the city or county records and get a copy of the original layout of the subdivision or block. This is "parent" survey, and was what the surveyor used to construct your lot. Check your deed or abstract for any information about adjoiners, and get those plats also.
Rent a metal detector and try to find the original corners, and the points on the "parent" survey. Write up your request and include the information about what you have found.
Find a reputable, liscensed survey company, and have them survey the lot, and locate the house and all improvements on the lot.
This kind of stuff is exactly what a survey company wll do, and charge for. With the epuipment in use today, the ground survey shouldn't take more than a day, if you're found the points.
Around here (NB Canada), they've started a new system. All properties are registed by a Property Identification Number. The first time a property changes hands under the new system, the boundary is properly surveyed by a registered surveyor, and every corner and apex has a proper steel pin. One of the lawyers involved (usually the buyer's) does a title search. If there are any outstanding ambiguities, the title is quieted. Then the whole information is entered into a provincial database.
Next time the property changes hands, it's about a $200 transaction, similar to changing registration on a car. No muss, no fuss. And if you can't find the pins, it's a fairly cheap process, since all the information is readily available. In fact, it's available to anyone who wants to pay $25 to get it from the database.