We’re about to begin a roofing project and wanted to get some thoughts on layering over the current single layer of shingles, or stripping and starting from scratch.
The current layer is 25 years old, with some discoloration where some trees had overhung the house (the trees have since been removed). There is some algae in these spots, but I got up there recently and it looks to be pretty dried out — it comes right of if you scrape at it.
Now, so far two roofers have suggested we leave this layer and reroof it, that this layer will be a better underlayment than felt, and the top layer will last longer with a layer beneath it. Both of these guys have been in business over 30 years, so I tend to think they’ve seen this situation before. They nail by hand, so nails punching through isn’t an issue. Other roofers are coming by next week and I’m sure I’ll get other opinions.
Are they truly trying to save me money, or is this just the “old school” way?
6
Replies
Why do you feel that you need new shingles? In other words, if the current shingles are in good enough shape to be an underlayment for new shingles, then it would seem that new shingles aren't needed. Certainteed will not warrant its shingles if damage is caused by deterioration of the underlayment. I've had total tear-offs on my last two houses, not just because I mistrusted the existing shingles as an adequate underlayment, but it also allowed me to have ice and water shielding installed, as I'm in an ice dam region of the country.
Thanks for the welcome. We want to do a new roof because:
1) this one is discolored (it really looks awful, but there aren't any leaks we've found) and
2) we'd rather not wait until we have a leak (getting a few more years out of a 25 year old roof isn't worth it to us)
3) we plan on doing some major landscaping/planting beds that will extend out from the front of the house about 15-20 feet. I'd hate to get it all pretty and then have it trampled in a few years by dumpsters, tarps, scafilding and whatever else roofers need to do their job
4) we need new gutters and it seems better to do both at the same time
Thanks for your advice and keep it coming.
So why would these two roofers tell me to go the less expensive route? To get the job done quick and move on to another?
"So why would these two roofers tell me to go the less expensive route?"
Just guessing, but -
Tear-offs are messy and difficult. Cleaning up afterwards is a pain. They may have help who doesn't want to do tear-offs.
Also - You may have landscaping that makes it more difficult. If you have a lot of flowers and such that they would have to protect or be responsible for, they may not want to deal with it.Yesterday at a White House ceremony, the official portrait of President Clinton was unveiled. Apparently, Clinton's portrait is so realistic that Hillary immediately started yelling at it." [Conan O'Brien]
h
The landscaping shouldn't be a problem for a competent roofer, so long as there is some area adjacent to the house without landscaping. When they redid our roof they tossed everything directly into a dumpster in our driveway (which was adjacent to one corner of the house). Maybe a few fragments slid off into the grass, but that was about it.
Well that's good to know.
Before talking to the roofers, my wife and I were prepared for the expense of removing the current layer and starting over.
I guess the hard part now is to find the best roofers. We called 8 guys so far, and hope to get at least 5 estimates.
Anything in particualr we should look out for in the estimates? Flashing, ice shield, clean-up specifics, etc?
This forum is a great resource -- thank you guys very much.
6
We called 8 guys so far, and hope to get at least 5 estimates.
thank goodness estimates are free...........
carpenter in transition
Yeah, and with 8 calls we'll see how many call back sometime before the end of summer.
Anything in particualr we should look out for in the estimates? Flashing, ice shield, clean-up specifics, etc?
Always,always..ask about what plans there are for temporary dry in..tarps? Who's gonna be responsible for any damage INSIDE if they tear off and sorta paper it in..and it rains.
Ask about what the valley metal will be..( no homeowner rolls of foil from Lowes)..counter flashing on a chimney? New drip edge?
And references.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
Sphere,
I hadn't even thought of the "damage" questions. Is a tarp the normal method to temporary dry? Is there something better or does that usually do the trick. Thanks.
6
well, in a perfect world, it never has to be done..but, I have had situations where it's best to CYA..Cover Yer Azz
if there is no time to get felted in, or you have a chopped up roof with a lot of valleys..you betcha..tarp it, or lots of watershield in the right places.
even a "dried in" roof..can and will leak..if not protected. A few staples or button caps holding down 15lb. felt is not good enough..insist on 30lb. felt. If it is a big job, and the whole thing is tore off at once..and you live in tornado alley or the llike..a few well placed and fastened tarps might save the day..they are cheap insurance.
I do it..I don't trust Mother Nature..believe me, I am right smack dab in the middle of a large cedar shingle job..and we had rain almost every day for a month..some severe..in Central KY here.
Even with a tarp, I had some water go under a valley..before I could get it removed..it leaked. Not real bad, but ANY drywall cieling or worse plaster, repair is up to someone.
Better safe than sorry..I was lucky.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
you called 8 guys???
are you sure that's enough???
why not call several hundred? ask them to bring refreshments over why jerk people around like that? yeah, the estimates are free, but sales calls cost money, and maybe the guy has a family he'd like to be with don't know what line you're in, but would you like to be on the receiving end of that?
that said... strip the roof for no other reason than to shed a couple tons of unnecessary weight it ain't insulation, and it ain't underlayment it's a dead load needlessly using up the structure use 30# roofing felt as underlayment at marginal extra cost, it resists wind tears during install, safer underfoot for the nice roofers that gave you the free estimate
So why would these two roofers tell me to go the less expensive route? To get the job done quick and move on to another?
Both of these guys have been in business over 30 years, so I tend to think they've seen this situation before.
Guys that have been roofing for 30 years are old and creaky. They don't wanna tear that roof off for the same reason I wouldn't.
By the time your new roof is an old roof, they'll be gone.
Joe H
Welcome to the board - I see this is your first post.
I don't consider myself a roofing expert, but -
I figure a 2nd layer of shingles has about half the life of a single layer. They just don't seem to last as long.
stripping the roof allows you to check the existing plywood for bad sheets, check for wet wood where there may have been small undetected leaks, repair flashing, etc. You can't do that with a shingle-over.
I suspect your roofers just don't want to mess with stripping off a roof. No one enjoys that.
According to USA Today, former President Clinton has already read his wife's new book five times. In fact, the former president has now spent more time in bed with the book than he has with Hillary. [Conan O'Brien]
If you want a quality job, remove the old shingles. Heat buildup and the inability to get the new shingles flat will result in a shorter lifespan of your new roof shingles. Your roofers are flat wrong. If you don't already have a ridge vent and corresponding soffit vents, take the time now to install them. Make sure they use ice and wter shield on the edge of the roof and, if possible, up under the siding along any intersecting walls. Insist on all new flashing and new pipe flashing.
If you want a slapdash inexpensive job, roof right over the existing shingles and plan on a lifespan that is a third to half that of a quality job.
J Painter
In general, a second layer will not last as long as the first (and shingle manufacturers will not warrant it to). Also, if the existing shingles are curled or otherwise deformed, that deformity will show through the new roof in short order.
That said, roofing over the existing roof saves the time and expense of tear-off, and defers (perhaps to the next owner) the (often substantial) disposal costs. Plus it's easier for the roofers, since they can just shove the new shingles up against the edges of the old, without having to measure anything.
Check the warrantee on your new shingles. Some manufacturers void their warranties when they are being installed as a 2nd layer.
In West Texas, we always nailed a second layer on. It was gonna get hailed out again in three years anyway!
From talks with other home inspectors from around the country it is my experience that roof life varies from region to region.
In my area, (NW Ohio) with a nail over the second layer loses just a couple of years of life. (And I inspect a lot of houses in the 30-50 year old range, so I get to see a lot of nail overs nearing their end.)
You'll probably move before the second roof wears out, so the cost savings now stay in your pocket and and go with you when you leave.
Unless a roof is in really bad shape, at least in my area there is no difference in marketability of 1 v 2 layers.
A nail over will never look as good to an experienced eye, but most people probably don't notice.
If your existing roof is a laminated (architectural)shingle, you can't do a nail over.
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
If your existing roof is a laminated (architectural)shingle, you can't do a nail over.
I prefer not to do nail overs at all, but I'm curious about this statement. Why can't you?
I've been told that in home inspection seminars; I believe it is a warranty provision.
Also, no mater what you do, it'd really look bad.
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
You can do a nail-over on laminated shingles, but it will look like #### and won't last very long, due to the texture of the laminated shingles "telegraphing" through the new shingles. Same difference as a nail-over on curled shingles.
The general rule is if the 1st or 2nd layer is in good enough shape shingle over it. 3 layers max, then time for a tear off.
Because roof framing is structurally sized for this 3 layer rule, is also why you don't need to go with re-enforced or new roof framing if you decide to roof with slate in the future. Slate doesn't weigh more than 3 layers of shingles.
Russ,
This must be a regional thing. Toledo OH used to allow 3 layers, went to 2 about 10 years ago; every other place I've lived only allowed 2.
And you should see the sag in the rafters in older homes with 3 layers!
"It is as hard for the good to suspect evil, as it is for the bad to suspect good."
-- Marcus Tullius Cicero, statesman, orator, writer (106-43 BCE)
Chicago, They do, do it all the time. We do not do it for our own customers however, limit of 2. But, many people have limited budgets and it is certainly an viable alternative.Never serious, but always right.
I debated whether to weigh in here or not since there are so many opinions floating around but I thought I'd let loose a word or two.
This is after twenty years or so of mostly roofing and then more since. I worked roofs in NY, Florida, Texas, Colorado, and Maine.
I think a part of the answer to this is more of a regional thinbg than it is any kind of scam or good vs bad. Here's why....
In Florida, I never saw a roof tear-off that did not have rotted sheathing and possibly framing under the shingles because of low slope designs and warm humid climate. That made it essential that every re-roof be torn down to the decking. It was also a fairly easy place to do so since most of the roofs were walkons and level ground around.
In West Texas, like somebody noted, the average lifespan of an asphalt 20 year shingle was only 6-7 years due to frequent hailstorms. I hear the hail hounds are descending on the Amarillo area as we speak. So the fact that nailing one shingle over another might reduce the life expectancyu a bit had no bearing on the decision. The standard there was to put no more than three layers on beore stripping down. Boy did I hate those triple tearoffs though!
On CO, it was six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Here in Maine, you rarely see a nail-over but the reasons are many. These frugal (read cheap) Yankees let a roof go as long as they can stand it before they re-roof. There are plenty of fifteen year shingles that have gone 25 - 30 years heere. Then when they are all curled and buckled and falling off, they re-roof just the south side and squeeze another five or ten years out of the north side. A roof in that bad a shape definitely needs to be torn down.
The biggest deciding factor for me would be the condition of the existing shingles and flashings. Curling up edges mean there is no good support under the new and that you will destroy many shingles just laying the new ones. If the old are solid and laying flat, then I need to know if they are sized to match the new. For instance, if the old are laid at five inch exposure and the new are metric sized at 5-5/8" exposure, then we have a problem Houston. The telegraphing will be ugly and uneven.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Thanks again everyone for your input. We live in the Connecticut, so any regional experience would be helpful.
We we not planning on "cheaping out" by layering over, but this was the recommendation of 2 roofers. Above all, we want a quality job.
And to Ed2, let me say this as politely as possible, knowing that most of you guys are contractors -- we called 8 guys a week ago, so far 4 have called back. One was supposed to come by Saturday at 10am and never showed. So, out of 8 people I called, only 3 have shown interest. Talk about jerking someone around.
If I had only called 3 roofers, I'd probably end up with only one estimate. The problem with contractors not showing isn't news to anyone here, is it?
So why do some of you guys get bent out of shape when people ask for multiple estimate when we know some won't even show up? Enlighten me, because this is a huge mystery. Thanks.
"So why do some of you guys get bent out of shape when people ask for multiple estimate when we know some won't even show up? "
Like most issues, there are 2 sides to this.
Contractors get weary of having "tire kickers" waste their time estimating stuff when there's no way they can afford it, etc.
Homeowners (like yourself) get tired of contractors who don't show up, don't return calls, lie, etc.
So naturally contractors who DO return phone calls and DON'T jerk people around naturally get aggravated at people who waste their time.
And homeowners who DON'T jerk contractors around get aggravated at comntractors who say they shouldn't get too many bids.
Two different perspectives on an old problem.Hillary's got this huge book, it's a memoir of her life and times at the White House. In the book she says when Bill told her he was having an affair, she said "I could hardly breath, I was gulping for air." No, I'm sorry, that's what Monica said. [David Letterman]
Well that's interesting. But how would a contractor even think I was a time-wasting tire kicker if he's never met me? To me, I look in the phone book and find a name, saying to myself, "now here's a guy who is in business and would like to stay gainfully employed. And look! He's left his phone number in the ad -- he must want me to call him. And what's this -- it says here he gives free estimate."
I wouldn't like being jerked around either, but if I were a contractor and I lose the bid to someone else based on cost, quality, reputation, promptness or something else that is in my control, I can not reasonably be angry with the homeowner.
If the HO doesn't hire anybody, then you're right, he has wasted everyone's time and deserves a kick in the taco.
"how would a contractor even think I was a time-wasting tire kicker if he's never met me?"
I wasn't talking about the contractors you called - I was referring to some of the guys here who said you got too many bids.
It's a long term, ongoing problem with no easy solutions. I was trying to show both sides of the issue."I hope you're all Republicans." [Ronald Reagan, speaking to surgeons as he entered the operating room following a 1981 assassination attempt]
>But how would a contractor even think I was a time-wasting tire kicker if he's never met me?
Because you haven't filled out your profile information?
Sorry, couldn't resist.
remodeler
Hmmm, profile? Is this some sort of Patriot Act thing?
funny. real funny.
bwaaaa!
i'm baacck!!! and happy to enlighten you...
your post stated that 8 contractors were called, hoped for 5 estimates but DID NOT mention that some of the troops did not return calls let me say this as politely as possible, don't take someone to task for having responded, when you did not give full disclosure to start with
bosshog is right, this is an old issue, everyone has a side industry figures it costs about $150. to make a sales call you seem to be offended that 4 guys did not return your call this is not jerking someone around, we are in the busy season and strapped for time small companies in particular cannot return calls, especially if they can't get to the job and have no one to recommend to the caller
generally, people seek 3 estimates, and contractors know this is the gig you seem to need a couple extra, and i would suggest the following prep for future work on your home to cut this down go first to websites like this one or the manufacturers for the product you need, in this case roofing before even talking to roofers, have a general idea as to products out there and accepted construction practice, then speak briefly during the call to help pre-qualify who will do good work it will cut time expended by all parties
seems to me that it's now necessary to meet with the better roofers again, talk specs and get new estimates based on what has been learned depending on how you present it to them, they may stop by again and hopefully give a fair estimate rather than piking you because they think they're getting jerked around your attitude and veiled comments about contractors did convey in the post, hope your in person people skills are better that would serve positively when recalling guys... good manners are always in style
and that said...
this is an excellent place to get information others here have been decent enough to help me in the past please refer back to my post re: the need to strip the existing layer and to use 30# roofing felt for underlayment further, in connecticut, consider the use of two courses of ice/water shield on the eaves due to freeze/thaw cycles the steeper the roof, the more important this is another good practice is to split a roll of ice/water and run it down the rakes as wind-driven rain and freeze/thaw can both cause damage here the balance of the roof receives the 30# felt lead flashing is best for stepflashing and at chimneys, especially if near the shoreline for architectural shingles, best to go w a 40 year product ridge venting, is it needed on your home?
best of luck with your project
Yikes! Ed, I didn't mean any offense. I didn't say up front that we hadn't heard from all of them since I was still hoping the others would call. I understand that this might be a busy time of year, and if you can't return a call because you've got too much work, that must mean you're in demand which is good (but not for me and my sad-#### roof).
The feelings I have toward contractors aren't vieled -- they're right up front. There are good people to work with and others who should try another profession. THat's not just my opinion but reality -- right? They guy who did our floors ended up with 3 other jobs because of our recommendation to friends. We reward the good guys and want to steer clear of the rest. That goes for life, not just hiring contractors.
This is a great forum and your advice to learn more about the process before bidding is valuable. For my next project, I'll start right here!
EDIT: Ed, you said most people get three estimates, but that I feel I need a few more. What if I had only called three guys and these were the three that never called back? Should I call them again, or move down the list to another three possibly to go through the process again? What would you do?
What would any of you guys do?
Edited 6/28/2004 11:05 am ET by 6milessouth
good comeback, you can stay and i can see where my original post could have tweaked you i get my nasty streak from my mother's side of the family those people are animals the refreshment thing could work though, hit the boys for some good stuff; toblerone candy bars, good table wines, omaha beef...
Speaking of refreshments, what do guys on the job appreciate? As a kid, my dad would always offer guys a beer. Is that frowned upon these days? I always bribe my mechanic's guys with donuts and coffee in the morning when I drop my car off and that seems to work for good service.
I bet most people would just prefer cash, but seriously, what extras can a HO do to make you happy?
''what extras make us happy?"
man is that tempting...
ok..got a blonde?
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations.
The easiest thing to make us happy would be to have a cordial manner, get your stuff out of the way so they can work, and provide some manner of refreshment. The specific type, IMHO, is not very important. What is important is that the workers recognize that you appreciate what they are doing. Some guys would love coffee in the morning, but it makes me gag. I prefer a coke, but some don't drink caffeine. It's the thought that counts.
Jon Blakemore
you seemed to have liked a couple guys, give them a recall skip the ones that didn't call, they're busy, head down the list to a couple new names, call the building inspector and ask for a few names they can't get involved as to recommending a certain guy, but do see who's doing good work and can give some names out
On the other hand, a customer that calls YOU is probably much cheaper/more productive than you having to find the customer yourself. Dunno about the building trades, but in most other areas an independent contractor can easily burn up 30-40% of his time drumming up business, much of it making cold calls, attending trade shows, etc.
The customer that comes to you is saving you a lot of effort vs the one you have to find. At the very least they're due the courtesy of a return phone call.
"The customer that comes to you is saving you a lot of effort vs the one you have to find." "At the very least they're due the courtesy of a return phone call."
that may be, but that's not what we were talking about, and no one is "due" a return call, especially if it adversely affects your business
my post said that we're in the busy season and guys are strapped for time small companies in particular cannot return calls, especially if you can't get to the job and have no one else to recommend
running a business requires prioritizing work tasks if a guy is working 14 hours a day, burning up an hour or more responding to 5-10 calls is not going to cut it loyalty goes first to your business and the customers whose jobs are in production that's what pays the bills
what does work is screening out the deadend calls; jobs too small, not in your specialty, occasional nut cases, etc. when time allows, get back to the "prospects of interest" and explain that you were busy and had to finish jobs up if they understand and are still looking, could be a good customer if a prima donna because they didn't get immediate gratification, better not to win that one
some posts talked about this being a complex issue, one with two sides and that is true contractors sometimes don't return calls, just like homeowners that don't call us after we have quoted their jobs
I'm responding to the aggravation of contractors not showing up. I live in a medium size metroplitan area. I've got 5 or 6 "real" competitors. I know them all and have some sort of professional relationship with them. We often talk amongst ourselves about potential jobs. If I hear thru the grapevine that a potential customer has already called 3 of my competitors, I'm not likely to waste time on him unless I'm mighty hungry. I don't, however, make appointments and not show up. Good luck with your project.
"Here in Maine, you rarely see a nail-over but the reasons are many. These frugal (read cheap) Yankees let a roof go as long as they can stand it before they re-roof. There are plenty of fifteen year shingles that have gone 25 - 30 years heere. Then when they are all curled and buckled and falling off, they re-roof just the south side and squeeze another five or ten years out of the north side. A roof in that bad a shape definitely needs to be torn down."
Some of those Yankees must have moved to Minnesota. When I bought my house in 1984, it had two layers on the roof....the original cedar shingles from 1913, and a layer of asphalt that was put on in 1948. Yeah, it leaked. On the other hand, when the landlord of the rental house next door finally got around to putting on a new roof, the crew stripped off SEVEN layers.
I totally agree no time like the present to get them shingles of that roof, and in my opinion most guys that have been in the buisness for 30 yrs have a realatively big crew working for them thus creating the need to sell more jobs to keep them busy, and knowing that your not going to go up and look for yourself it`s in his best interest to sell the job.Lastly it has gotten more expensive to get rid of roof shingles these days so they would have to reflect that in their price and you know that they are going to qouate you on the high side to try to scare you...just make sure you compare apples to apples when you look at the quoates then make your decision.
And Good Luck
Shavey
ive roofed a lot of houses in my day and ive done it both ways. iroofed over primarily at the homeowners request. these i did early on. later on in time i would just flat out refuse to roof over and recommend someone who would do it. i just had to many call backs. and we all know how much we love call backs. there just too many hidden things under the first layer. i can't count the times when i stripped and found the valley not flashed and even though the shingles were weaved there was still rot or along the rakes and even the pover hangs where water damage was starting but was caught and repaired before more damage occured.
gotta get dirty to do it right.
just another day in paradise
G.E. Ely Construction
Ocracoke NC