I’m a builder switching from copper to pex for domestic water. I have seen several houses plumbed this way and have a few questions for you all out there with the experience.
First. Homerun everthing 1/2″ to a giant manifold, or homerun each room 3/4 to a smaller manifold and then use the 3/4×1/2 brass multi port fittings with 2,3,4 ports?
Second. Copper crimp, stainless crimp, or expander tool(Wirsbo system?)
Third. Use all clear/white pex, or use blue and red.
Fourth. What is the best size rolls to get for whole house jobs. 300, 500, or 1000.
Thanks.
Replies
Don't do the homeruns in 1/2", it wastes water. Just run 3/4 trunks and 1/2" branches as if it was copper.
I like the copper crimp rings from Zurn Pex. they have a sweet little de-crimping tool so if you have to cut out a fitting you can nip the rings off right there and re-use the fitting.
I run white for cold water and red for hot, if I'm running a recirc line that's easy enough to keep track of that I don't need to worry about the color.
I use 20' sticks for general use and coils for trunks and radiant only, they are springy and hard to get to lay straight and I like a neat looking job like I get with the straight sticks.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
I agree that homeruns of 1/2" are a waste of water.
But just for the sake of discusion, why do you not like homeruns of 3/8" lines - especially for hot water?Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
OK how is a bigger pipe a "waste of water".
Do I use any more water if I run 6" lines?
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
I like the Metlund D'mand hot water re-circ system that uses the trunk setup and a dedicated 3/4" single return generally from the master or furthest from the water heater. Because it uses the trunk and branch system once you've warmed up the water for the sink the water is there for the shower or the second sink and the 3/4" line is hot if you want to fill the tub.
With 3/8" you have a separate line and wait for husband and wifes sinks and what about filling a tub, on a 3/8" home run? not.
Besides I'm old school, been a plumber for over 20 years and I just like the look of a clean trunk and branch layout, the spagetti strands of a homerun system look goofy to me. ------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Well, looks are great for buying a car, but I question your choice of water supply system based on A.) Looks or B.) It's what I've always done before.
Have you actually tried a 3/8" pex line? And how often do you or your clients take a bath rather than use the shower?
I also have to question using recirculation to keep water warm, rather than just disposing of a smaller quantity of cold water befor the hot fills the tube. I would think that a cheap recirculation system would use alot of water heating energy, and and expensive one would save energy at the expense of.. well... it's own expense.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of hot water right away. But I'm not sure that using my hot water pipes to constantly heat my slab or attic is the best use of my gas or electric... I'm also not sure a $200 reciculation system will ever pay for itself in heat and water savings before it needs to be replaced.
Using a small diameter home run setup seems like a simple way to get hot water fast (and cold water consistently). Using big trunks and recirculation seems wasteful and complex.
I've not installed one system or the other, this is still an "in the head" exercise for me. You obviously have. I'm not dissing you, I'm challenging you. If I'm wrong or misguided, I would like to understand why. Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
If your hair looks funny, it's because God likes to scratch his nuts. You nut, you.
Basically the system I have trunk and branch with the demand activated re-circ system is working and my customers are happy so I have no real incentive to try the spaghetti system. I know they can be made to look neat and people do like and advocate them but I don't see the advantage. The demand activated systems don't keep hot water in the pipes like the Laing or Grundfos or Taco systems do which is why I prefer them (and you get NAHBgreen points or LEED-h points for them as well.) Ain't broke why mess with trying to fixit, but I do have reservations stated previously with the manifold systems outside of the tub issue which I agree is moot. M------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
" they have a sweet little de-crimping tool so if you have to cut out a fitting you can nip the rings off right there and re-use the fitting."
Oh I see - I guess a vice and a hacksaw aren't good enough for some people!
<< they have a sweet little de-crimping tool so if you have to cut out a fitting you can nip the rings off right there and re-use the fitting" Oh I see - I guess a vice and a hacksaw aren't good enough for some people!">>
When you make as many mistakes as I do you appreciate the ability to make speed in reverse.
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"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
By wasting water, I assume you mean all the cold in that 1/2" hot line that needs to be dumped before you get to the hot.
Yes, that is what I was referring to. This is why manifold systems generally use 3/8" tubing.------------------
"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
First. Homerun everthing 1/2" to a giant manifold, or homerun each room 3/4 to a smaller manifold and then use the 3/4x1/2 brass multi port fittings with 2,3,4 ports?
That comes to personal preference.
Some like home runs with no joints between A & B
Some like sub manifolds, less parallel runs of wasting pipe, & it's easier to have a circ system piped from the sub manifold.
Second. Copper crimp, stainless crimp, or expander tool(Wirsbo system?)
I prefer the Wirsbo/Uponor system, you can expand the pipe out in the open then put the pipe on the fitting that is in a tight spot.
Third. Use all clear/white pex, or use blue and red.
We use the color pipe, but I prefer the white stuff, then you don't have to worry about running out of one color or the other, as there is almost always more cold in a system than hot.
Fourth. What is the best size rolls to get for whole house jobs. 300, 500, or 1000.
how fast are you going to be able to get rid of the over order with out having to lug extra around from job to job. We buy it about 10,000 feet at a time, but I do 20 to 50 story highrise condo, hotels & apartments.
“The world is a dangerous place, not because of those who do evil, but because of those who look on and do nothing.” —Albert Einstein
There is a lot of marketing involved in the plumbing business.
As with any good marketing campaign fear is used.
Before pex there where copper systems installed that did not suffer from the dredded flush, it involved craftmanship and pride in doing a good job. With codes going toward balancing valves for showers and mixing valves on garden or whirlpool tub homeruns may become a mute point.
I have to go with Wirsbo on the second question. In trying a crimp system I found it more difficult to get a good connection in hard to reach areas. If you compare fittings between companies the I.D. of Wirsbo fittings is a bit larger in the Aquapex line. I always carry a Wirsbo removal tool in my pocket, it looks exactly like a razorblade knife.
Third question, I always use the sorta clear pipe, this alows me to normaly carry only two rolls of pipe on the truck and have most situations covered. I'm a firm believer in colored pipe being another marketing device to sell more pipe. Say for example you go to do a room addition, and need roughly 30' of each color, with clear that is one roll of 100' as opposed to two. If there is 3/4" involved its four rolls as opposed to two. How offten do homeowners go look at the color of there plumbing after they have moved into the house, other than to show visitors how hip they are, fear marketing again.
Fourth, I would say that is somewhat determined by the amount needed to plumb the house, normally I carry a 100' roll of 1/2"and 3/4" or part of a roll on the truck. For radiant floors I may go with 300' or larger depending what gives the least amount of waste.
You can of course use this fear marketing to help you make a sale, but if I were building a house for myself, there wouldn't be colored pipe or homeruns.
I'm a DIY plumber with 2 homes done using polybutylene in the early 90's and 2 more homes with PEX in the last 5 years.
I use branches (all 1/2") where it doesn't matter and home runs for showers. I have tried 3/8" lines for vanity sinks and it still takes several seconds for hot water to arrive so I'm back to a 1/2" trunk and branches. I've found using ball valves for shut-offs on lines to a large 6' tub helped with the flow rate.
I like the idea of red for hot and white for cold, since in-floor heat is a must-have in my area for any new construction, I would buy 500 or 1000 foot coils for hot domestic and in-floor use and buy 20 foot lengths for cold domestic. Since I'm not a pro doing 100 homes a year the price issue is minimal and my supplier is good with small orders.
I've been using copper crimp rings with black plastic (nylon?) fittings in the last project, prior to that I've used copper and brass fittings. I've had to replace 2 brass tees in earlier homes, both were slow drips in accessible locations, I've been lucky. No plastic failures so far.
I don't like the idea of plastic fittings. I would think you run the risk of damaging that fitting with the crimp tool. Is there any loss of volume with the same size pex versus copper. The internal diameter of the fittings on 1/2 inch look smaller than 3/8. Is a 1/2" line home run to a manifold enough for a roman tub faucet with no restrictions. I can see how the low flow showers and lavs won't be hurt by the smaller volume.
The black plastic is actually very tough, it's not really plastic, it's more like the nylon waterline fittings used with lake pumps and dairy installations. The brass and copper fittings that failed developed tiny fissures where the barbed tube joined the brass body of the tee. The copper failed along the seam of the barbed tube. Because the crimp tool puts pressure on the ring evenly I think the fitting is pretty safe.
You are correct about the smaller diameter of the plastic fittings however. I seem to have plenty of water available for showers, washers, etc. I can see how a multi-head shower system could benefit from a 3/4" supply line though. In most cases, the smallest restriction in the line occurs in the faucet body at the valve assembly.
My 72 x 42 soaking tub has a Roman tub faucet (American Standard), the hot and cold are 1/2" feeds with ball valve shutoffs, with the hot faucet fully open and cold at 1/3 or so it delivers a pretty heavy stream of water. Plenty to fill the tub quickly anyway. Home runs are a good idea here too, but a 3/4" branch system with a stool and vanity on the same branch would be good also.