I thought about putting this in the business folder along with another post Nobody tells me how to run my business.. I started today, but I thought I might get more input here.
I guess I’m in a “what makes us tick” mode, so to speak.
Why are some of us just completely shut down to negotiating anything? I’m not talking about money necessarily.
Just give and take things that we deal with daily. Things that affect us personally or in business, that don’t actually co$t anything, but somehow hold a value that we are unwilling to comprimise on.
Ok, or maybe money things. Contractual issues that need to be negotiated that without such will result in nothing but a stalemate.
Is it a macho thing; “I’ll show them who’s in charge”?
I say superb negotiating skills will get us much closer to getting us what we want than holding a position will and not budging an inch.
And NO poli jive here, please!!
Replies
So what is it that happened at work to get you going along these lines?
are you 'simple but elegeant'?
Bastid..............I got two letters for you, but the lastime I did that some guy complained and I went to jail.
But seeing as ya sked Dr. Rez..............plumber puts in a vinyl shower pan. Shower has and outside corner in adittion to the four regular inside corners in a rectangle.
Plumber decides it can't be done in one peice and hacks it up. I "fix" it with/for him, but now there is at least one seam.
HO comeup and doesn't like it. Says it can be done in one peice. Plumber says show me, and he does.
HO says the pan is unacceptable take it out. I start the ball rolling and call the boss. He says it either leaks or holds water, the owner does not get to dictate how it is done.
I say the HO is correct and it should be done over. Someone will have to pay for it.
My boss dosplayed his usual lack of negotiating skills that gets us into trouble all the time.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
....HO says the pan is unacceptable take it out. I start the ball rolling and call the boss. He says it either leaks or holds water, the owner does not get to dictate how it is done.
Here's my suggestion for this specific instance:
HO says the pan is unacceptable take it out. I start the ball rolling and call the boss....
Eric to Boss: "The HO wants to talk to you about the shower pan."
Eric hands phone to homeowner and gets busy, preferably somewhere well away from the area -
Boss to HO: "You don't get to dictate how it's done." or whatever...
But the key is that you are not in the middle, being forced to relay unwanted news to PO'd HO, trying to mediate a lost situation. It is absolutely a no-win situation for you -
the situation was lost when plumber said 'show me' and the HO did - at the point the discussion was not about the soundness of the installation, but the competency of the plumber -
"there's enough for everyone"
TOUCHE', touche'!
(that's what I get for letting rez in)
You are correct david.
But I'm not in the middle, although it may not sound like it.
The plumber mostly agreed he f'd it up. It was NOT pretty. But, it's up to his boss.
My point here was that; in this situation we have an HO who is unhappy. We MUST negotiate.
Why not be willing.
Or really the question is; why are some people simply unable or totally unwilling to negotiate? Even if it is the honorable thing to do.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Or really the question is; why are some people simply unable or totally unwilling to negotiate? Even if it is the honorable thing to do.
sure this doesn't belong in the Tavern? <VBG> - -
OK - - just a joke....
I'm sure there are a myriad of reasons -
I'd wager that most boil down to a perception on the non-negotiater's part that it is not in their interest to do so -
how well thought out this is such a position? IMO, not very - -
a sharp negotiator can hang your skin on the wall and have you thank him for it -
the Amish do that to me every season....
"there's enough for everyone"
the Amish do that to me every season.... Roar!
I have a cousin that works secretary/clerk for a small community in New York state.
She tells me of the Amish coming in to pay their taxes and always trying to talk her into lowering the amount as if she had the ability to do so.
Same guys every year.
NEW JERSEY...Paul Stiller, 47, was hospitalized in Andovertownship, NJ, and his wife Bonnie was also injured, when a quarter-stick of dynamite blew up in their car.While driving around 2 AM, the bored couple lit the dynamite and tried to toss it out the window to see what would happen, but apparently failed to notice the window was closed.
are you 'simple but elegeant'?
Same guys every year.
I'm guessing that it's a cross between joking and flirting - - men/women social thing is a bit different in that culture -
"there's enough for everyone"
Yep.
In the blood.
are you 'simple but elegeant'?
you check out 'A Short History...' in the tav yet?
"there's enough for everyone"
ya, went looking for the tarzan deal but no luck.
On a wall in a ladies room...."My husband follows me everywhere"!Written just below it ... " I do not".
are you 'simple but elegeant'?
issue 34
"there's enough for everyone"
So what happened?
are you 'simple but elegeant'?
It is one thing to help the plumber solve a problem , it is another thing altogether to insert your self between the owner and the plumber. Then to put yourself between owner and boss is suicide. ( I have expired that way more than once)
I understand calling the boss to give him a heads up on the issue , but the problem was between owner and plumber, and owner /boss.
People in the middle get shot a lot more than those in the trenches on each side.
Eric
I'll bite on this one. While I appreciate watching a good negotiator, I do not enjoy negotiating. This is in part due to my upbringing where I was taught you say what you mean and do what you say. As a result, I carefully (most of the time) consider what is important to me and what I need from the interaction. I present that as laying it out there as what I consider fair. If I have to stray from that then I feel cheated and therefore feel like the negotiation went bad (even if it did not).
This is particularly true when it comes to price. I know what I have to charge to do my work. I charge a fair price and if you want something for less, then you will get less. Every time I have succumbed to a negotiator, I ended up with less. I cannot think of a single situation where it was win win. I am also opposed to adding 5% to my price for negotiating room. I realize this may be simplistic thinking on the matter, but I have been burned too many times -probably because I am a bad negotiator.
Bruce
One reason to try to stay open to negotiations is that the other guy might want something or have something to give that you haven't thought of.Good negotiating isn't trying to trap the other guy, it is looking for the best win-win situation and remaining open to other iodas.ANd if you get into negotiations and you find the other guy is being tricky himself, you might want to factor that into your own goals for the deal - like maybe wqlking!
With my mouth I will give great thanks to the Lord; I will praise Him in the midst of the throng. For He stands at the right hand of the needy, to save them from those who would condemn them to death.
- Psalms 109:30-31
One reason to try to stay open to negotiations is that the other guy might want something or have something to give that you haven't thought of.
Like a lawsuit perhaps! A good reason to negotiate!
[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
You've just said it all!!! Read 4 out of the 132 posts, and , thanks to you, I think I'm done.
Thanks, have a nice day
I would agree whole heartedly with Bruce/Hiker
--------additionally--someone else mentioned---"those that say they won't negotiate--will"-----nah-- i don't think so.
see-- to me-------since i have already spelled out what I am going to do---and for how much------if somebody begins to " negotiate"--------- they have really INSULTED me.--------at that point---- even if they then decide to accept my price---------I am know longer as interested in their project as I was before----because of the percieved insult( intentional or otherwise).
I would see an attempt to negotiate------as really saying" you are not a person who says what you mean"
Now,----someone else metioned(Ponyt, i believe)---that he sees the whole process as a game-------------
that's a perfectly valid point-- I have no objection
It's just that I have no interest in playing that game---- it requires a certain mindset that fortuneately I am sufficiently self aware to realize---I LACK, LOL.-------People who are interested in that game----should play it with other like minded individuals------------ there are plenty---and no offense intended.
I WOULD be interested to know--------- folks who enjoy bargaining, dickering , negotiating---------- do you also enjoy card games, board games, chess, sports with a strong social element like golf??????--- those are also games I won't play---------they seem to require different personality traits------------
Best wishes, All
Stephen
Hope you never want to buy a piece of property, a vehicle, or anything that any private party owns.Not dickering is not the same as not negotiating.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Hasbeen,
I see what you mean about buying a car------------pretty much no way around it there
however-------I try to buy as few cars/trucks as possible--because the whole car buying process is so un-pleasant LOL---other people enjoy it.
( actually---didn't saturn try a "no negotiating" approach to car buying----- I wonder how that has worked?)
but basically----it's not fun---or beneficial to me-----so i try to avoid the whole thing.
'course we could quibbble over semantics----and say that a "no negotiating" stance--is---in itelf a negotiation---because there are 2 choices available---take it or leave it.
I am just not a born horse trader---other people are--more power to 'em-----me?---I am just gonna stay out of the whole process as best as possible.
Best wishes,
Stephen
I know what you mean about buying a vehicle. I bought a new truck in 86 and sold it 2004. Wonder how long my current Ford is going to last? (The Ford that I bought only after walking out of the dealership twice, the second time starting my car and beginning to drive away before the saleman ran out to tell me that maybe there was something we could yet do... what BS)I see negotiation as a skill set not unlike any other. If I can't fix a plumbing leak, I'll have to pay. If I can't build a house, I'll have to pay. If I can't negotiate, I'll have to pay. But nobody can have every set of skills, so paying for what we find distasteful is ordinary for all of us.Me, I hate mechanics. I'll do every part of construction, but I don't change the oil in my truck. That's why I get along so well with my mechanic. He doesn't pretend to be a carpenter and I don't pretend to be a mechanic!
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
you are absolutely right---------- it is a skill set.
however-------some skill sets I would prefer not to learn----------for instance---butchering meat, programing computers, teaching 4th graders------------
with the car buying------I read once--( can't remember where---might have been " the millionare next door ")----anyhow---in car buying, negotiating---doesn't really save you that much money over all
what saves you the money----is how long you drive the car( 86to 04--pretty good!)
Me?-- i LIKE the base model, vinyl seats, no AC, 6 cylinders. Negotiating can only get me so far---there ain't that much to work with
but since my 6 year old truck has less than 60,000 miles---driving it another year---or two----or four----makes whatever the initial purchase price was----increasingly irrelelvant to the over-all picture
Best wishes,
Stephen
Stephen ,
I am with you on this one. If I give you a price, don't insult me by dickering. I don't dicker. Games are just that.
If you want to negotiate a price by reducing the scope/quality of the work fine.
This thread reminds me of the beginning of the book "House".
I will admit to feeling crippled in the "real world" though . It seems that everybody else was given some knowledge of the joys of the "Game" and I was passed over in the line when the gift was handed out.
I pay what is asked from my end, if the seller thinks I am a sucker so be it. I am just not comfortable dickering.
What is it that drives people to feel they have to "get one over " on others?
Stephen,
Thanks for the additional clarification. I was struggling to put the words out there.
The one analogy that I find similarly offensive is when someone says "I gotta be honest with you". Does that mean everytime we interact that your not being honest with me unless you preface with that statement?
Bruce
I remember reading once, that any time you hear the phrase" I gotta be honest with you"
or " to tell you the truth....."
Ya can be SURE a lie is about to follow, LOL.
ever since reading that i TRY not to use those 2 phrases----for fear that somebody else read the same book--and would think the same thing-----but speech patterns are hard to break.
Best wishes, Stephen
two more phrase's "trust me" ,man that means your about to get the shaft big time. the other one's not a phrase but a symbol. the fish that tells everybody your religious. if you act your faith nobody will need to see the fish on your letter head. those are my two triggers that tell me i gotta get outa there. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Oh man, this thread is so relevant to me. I really dislike negotiating. I understand it is a normal course of business for lots of folks, in lots of cultures, but I just don't like it.
I am also one of those who feels (at least) slightly insulted when someone tries to negotiate me down - as if I weren't giving them my best price in the first place.
But for all the rest of you like minded knuckleheads - have you been able to use some technique to keep your knee from jerking? I mean, for a lot of people this negotiating seems normal, harmless, freaking FUN even. And in the end, their money is as good as anyone else's. Their jobs are as interesting. Is there some way to get past this one approach to conducting business, this one personality conflict with them?
I mean, there are few enough great customers in the world. How can I overcome MY issues with how THEY conduct themselves and still be at peace with working with them?
I have no idea what Eric wrote, but I hope I didn't just do it.Romania wasn't built in a day.
tell them you just bought a saturn and you loved the idea of one price. that means your neighbor paid the same for his car as you did. so you like that so much thats how your doing your estimates,everybody gets a great deal.... trust me![see my post right above this. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
Just add 25% to every bid and do your best to not let them beat you more than 10% and in your way of thinking the extra charge just about covers the added hassle.
ANDYSZ2WHY DO I HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO FRIENDS AND FAMILY THAT BEING A SOLE PROPRIETOR IS A REAL JOB?
REMODELER/PUNCHOUT SPECIALIST
He wrote to me in larger than normal letters of purple print the popular Mike Smith two word slogan he's used here for the last 5-10 years.
I can't risk saying what it was as I'm under the microscope and value my well being.
Good for you guys tho' as I'm thinkling I help take the heat off of you all.
Similar to the scenario of the non drinking guy in the bar at closing time that will leave first so the cops pull him over as the other patrons make their great escape.
be the straight man
only life affirming platitudes allowed - Doud '07
But Jim- sometimes this seems to me like an opportunity to haggle back in a way that shows them that your price is your price. Like, tell them: Yeah, we could trim the budget some, if you wanted to use mdf for the trim, or if we face screwed the deck, rather than did hidden fasteners.
Don't let them turn it into a situation where they're offering less money, and you've got no counter offer. At the same time, the client needs to understand that for less money, they will get less services- no two ways about it.
This reminds me a lot of the book "House" where the main character refuses to negotiate with the silver-tongued client- he beats himself up over a few dollars, and it seems to be because he just can't understand the mindset of the client (that negotiation is a part of life, and shouldn't be viewed as an insult).zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Excellent reply, and great perspective.
If you want to go out on the frozen pond you have to negotiate.
Don't be insulted by the process, it's natures way of keeping you alive.
Just like when you shake the staging, your negotiating. Don't like the shake? well lets make another deal.
Lying is a way of life for some.. doesn't mean I have to do it as well.
All I learn from some one who wants to negotiate a lower price( which is differant than looking for ways to cut the budget) is that they think I am charging more than they think I am worth.
In regards to "House", I will have to re read it , but my memory from when I first read it (just after it was published) is that the project did not work out well for anyone in reality.
I don't know what lying has to do with the topic at hand, or why you brought it up. . . care to spell it out for me? Lying and negotiating do not equate in my mind.
It is your option to go through life acting rigid in your dealings with others, or to be flexible, and expect the same of others. Things tend not to go well when one party is flexible, and the other isn't- that's a lot of what "House" is about, though I would say the book ends on an up note- the house is good, nobody has gone broke, people still talk to each other, and everyone has learned something about other people.
If all you learn from negotiations is that the other party doesn't think you're worth what you think you're worth, I can imagine how negotiating would be very stressful for you. That's usually not what it's about.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Please explain what it is about then.
The comment about lying was just an example of behaviour that some indulge in and since they do, they expect and perceive that others approach life the same.
We all tend to assume that everybody either does or should looks at life the way we do .. this thread is a classic example of that.
If you are a negotiator then you don't understand and resent the lack of negotiation, if you are not a negotiator then you resent and don't understand the negotiator.
Honest people expect honesty, thieves expect theft.
I have read this thread from beginning to end and all I have really gotten out of it is that a lot of people get offended by the concept that some don't negotiate their prices and are willing to give advice on all the reason those who don't wish to negotiate should.
When you approach someone to negoitate with them it seems to me that what you are trying to do is achieve your aims without meeting theirs and they sensing that do what they can to get their aims met and don't really care about yours.
I do understand how it works, I understand that two parties can and do achieve some middle ground. But thru it all it is one party trying to gain something not otherwise being offered .
That is the part I dislike.
I will have to pull "House " off the shelf here and reread it again.
Please explain what it is about then.
A lot of this thread addresses what negotiation is about. Especially James Pio's posts- negotiation is a learning process, among other things. Negotiation is part of the culture- maybe not your culture, but for many people, it is insulting to not barter or haggle. I can see how some people go into any situation expecting to negotiate a lower price, and I can see how some people take any lower offer as offense.
But it's possible, and much more productive I would say, to be flexible in your dealings with people. If they want to negotiate, let them know what is open for negotiation, and what is not, and why not. Let them know that you won't be settling for a lower profit, and you don't do shoddy work, but there may be some cost saving measure that could be taken- if they will accept the results.zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
I'm not saying I don't negotiate. I'm saying I don't like doing it. I'm uncomfortable doing it and I would prefer not to.
Someone back there said "we all negotiate every day - with suppliers and subs" or something like that. I try not to. I ask suppliers and subs for their price. I don't think I've ever once asked anyone to lower their price, or winked and said "hey, if you can lower that price a couple hundred, we got a deal". I ask their price, then decide if I want their service or product enough to pay what they're asking - after that, it's all about the work, or product.
I think that beating someone down on price is asking for trouble. At least in the trades. All you're doing is giving them an excuse for giving you less than their best. That's just not the way I want to conduct business.
All you folks who say "stop taking offense"? Right. And while I'm at it, I'll stop being affraid of strange dogs, too. And worrying about my children? Or waking up in the middle of the night. See, you can INTELLECTUALISE stuff like that, but it's a gut reaction. It happens. You'd stand as good a chance of stopping the tides as that type gut reaction. It's true we have some control over how we react to it. We can be on guard for it and learn to mask it. But "stop having the reaction"? Only someone who doesn't have the reaction would even think it can be stopped.Romania wasn't built in a day.
jim,
one thing that REALLY bothers me about the whole negotiating thing( especially in out industry) is---------------
imagine a customer " negotiates you down $500
If they got you down $500----the whole project they are wondering if they could have got you down $600.--or $750
while at the same time----------they are relying on your personal integrity NOT to try to make up the $500 some other way----------slip in #2-instead of #1, or #3 instead of #2. cheaper icegaurd, thinner metal, a lesser grade of caulk way up there on the roof---who is gonna know?---less time spent re-nailing decking after a tear-off---------this stuff is "good enough'-----who is gonna know?--- Oh, you want that old TV ant. removed while we are up there------------( I would have happily done it for free---it's a pain to work around anyhow----but NOW I am gonna charge you $60 to remove it)
and of course the guy who " negotiated you down$500----- KNOWs that all this is a temptation----so he spends the project looking over your shoulder trying to " catch" you.
Basically------- even the attempt to negotiate at that point-----damages the relationship.
Even if they attempt to negotiate and fail----- i would rather pass on the project at that point-----the damage has been done-------------
but hey---that's just me.
Best wishes,
stephen
Have you ever worked with a customer to align schedules? Possibly knowing that if this could not be worked out satisfactorily with both parties, that you both may pass of working together?What about hiring subs? If you get three bids is price the only thing on the table? (I sure hope it isn't and doubt that it is)Negotiating is not strictly about price.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
What a great thread. DW uses the following description in her real estate business all the time. You all know how it works: Seller sets asking price and terms, if any. Buyer makes offer, with specific terms (appliances included or front door replaced, or or or...).DW tells people that the listing is the seller's wish list. That's how she describes it both to the seller when they list and to the buyer when they look.The offer to purchase is the buyer's wish list: when to close, how much they'll put down for an earnest deposit, what's included, when does buyer get possesion, etc.From there a deal is worked out that works for everyone. Is it always perfect compared to the hopes of both parties? No. It works. It's not perfect. Just like everything we build. (The mag isn't called "Perfect Homebuilding")The whole process is not an insult and it's not a bad thing. Think of it as a way for both parties to rethink their priorities, to get clearer about what is really important at the time.If you've never been in the position of having to decide whether to take an offer that's lower than your hoped for price as a trade off compared to waiting for the next real buyer... whenever they may or may not show up, you have been lucky, indeed.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
You illustrate a point with your posts. What negotiations are about is to find the best available option.
As someone in the trades, negotiating and selling are skills that allows me to leverage the trade skills to a better and higher level of options for me and my family.
So I guess when someone says "They don't negotiate" what I hear them saying is "I already know what the best and highest option is" Personally I will never come close to knowing it all.
The point I would make, and it is not to Hazlett, or Dovetail, is that when I started out, I wasn't even aware of these skills. I tried the hardazzed aproach, but it made me uncomfortable and broke. The better option for me was to learn the basics of human interaction, and I found it by reading, and trying the stuff I read about.
Some people are raised in an environment where these skills are modeled, and can be naturally absorbed by a child. I was not. But they are in fact skills, and any skill can be learned. Each person needs to decide if they want the option of providing more and better options to themselves and their family. That's what it is about for me.
Bowz
bowz,
I really shouldn't take the time to mention this-----'cause i really DO have to run this A.M.
but THANK YOU!!!!!!
I mean that----'cause I was beginning to think I was speaking greek here, LOL
you summed it up for me precisely!!!!
" I already know what the best and highest option is"
that's it exactly!!!!!!!!!!--------it may not apply to you,or the customer, or anybody else--------------
but not negotiating on price, is for ME part of" the best and highest option"
---so, If I negotiate on price------by definition--I have just lost the "best and highest option"
I don't think you meant to exactly---------but you put it very well for me.
"Not negotiating----IS the best and highest option-----everything ELSE is negotiable!!!!"
I DO realize-----that that is an Atypical goal----and so in fairness-- i really shouldn't be part of the discussion
Best wishes, all
stephen
'cause I was beginning to think I was speaking greek here, LOL
Funny, but all day long today I'm thinking of the scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail where the Black Knight has his arms and legs cut off and he says, "OK, we'll call it a draw." I'm seeing you and Dovetail on the ground and Mike and Hasbeen standing over you. LOL.
"Not negotiating----IS the best and highest option-----everything ELSE is negotiable!!!!"
That is part of the point I was getting at. Price is only one segment of a project's overall value. That value can be changed without affecting price, but it takes negotiating/sales skills to make sure you aren't skinned alive in the process. The price can also be raised if you are able to find additional value the client would pay for.
Gotta run for the weekend. Maybe more on Monday.
Bowz
Hasbeen,
I have already stated that I know what negotiation is, and that yes I do indulge in it. But my price is non-negotiable, my ethics are non -negotiable.
Please read all my posts here.
Ok, Lets negotiate.. What do you all need to happen to quit trying to convince those of us that dislike sales/negotiation? Might be we can provide it to you . But so far I haven't heard one of you tell us that . ;-)
dove..... still back for more , huh ?
<<<<But my price is non-negotiable, my ethics are non -negotiable. >>>
hah, hah, hah.....
you slay me, man
and this one.....
<<<<
Ok,
Lets negotiate..
What do you all need to happen to quit trying to convince those of us that dislike sales/negotiation?
Might be we can provide it to you . >>>
so...... guess that's that....
say... would it help if i told you that my price is non-negotiable.. nor my ethics ?
and what does that leave us with ? .... nothing in common ?
ok, here we are , we just spent 100 hours estimating a new house..
we're in the final meeting..... they've actually paid us to prepare the Proposal.... ethically , don't we have an obligation to give them their money's worth ?
and we also know that we've set our price based on 20 years of building homes, we know that any reductions in PRICE , just mean that some of OUR money winds up to the betterment of the Homeowner... we know that if we reduce our PRICE , and still take the job with no change in scope, we might as well take out our checkbook and just write them a check for that amount......
so ... is this it ?... lessee... in three weeks we'll be done with our current work..
so, i guess i'll lay off those two guys who hae been with me for 7 years...oh, well, maybe something will come up
is that how i should work it... what to do ? what would YOU do ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
mike,
I have noticed 2 flaws in your argument-----buyt only have time for one right now
Your assumption is that we want MORE sales-----and that THAT is what motivates us in the transaction
speaking for myself-----that's not applicable. I don't want MORE sales( in fact I want less)
what I want is the RIGHT sales, the right projects, done MY way.In fairness-- I shouldn't even take part in this discussion-----because my goals in the matter are quite different I think than most of us here. I am looking for projects that fit within certain parameters. NOT negotiating, as I have outlined----helps secure and define those parameters. If I Negotiate on price-------- I may gain a sale-----but I have lost what i really wanted out of the sale
and THAT--- I think is what customers,or prospective customers may find "insulting" in MY approach(LOL)------ that the carrot they are dangling( the sale)-----is not what I am after----------
gotta run,
Stephen
stephen.... ( grasshopper )....
<<< have noticed 2 flaws in your argument-----buyt only have time for one right now
Your assumption is that we want MORE sales-----and that THAT is what motivates us in the transaction
speaking for myself-----that's not applicable. I don't want MORE sales( in fact I want less) >>>>
i don't want MORE sales... i want the job i have devoted 100 hours of my life to.. and i don't have a construction contract
i only want ONE sale.. the one i'm working on.. tomorrow is another day
it's one of those things we've discussed 100 x... what is your closing ratio going to be
i think mine is about 90%.... after i've pre-qualified the customer...
i bet yours is too... and it sounds like dove's is also..
that is not an accident.... it's got to be a part of your MARKETING program... and marketing is just another form of negotiation
as i've said before, being married to Helen has taught me a lot about sales... and making adversaries into clients
one of her favorite sayings is ... so-an-so "could talk a dog off a meat wagon"...
you don't do it by beating the dog... or cheating the dog... you do it by convincing the dog, that they want to drop the steak, get off the meat wagon , and chew on what you've got to offer... you know.. negotiate the saleMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
To those who say that an offer of negotiation is an insult; you might as well be insulted by speech accents, hair color, diet, or the fact that the sun sets in the west.
Just like a counter offer, none of those have anything to say about you.
We negotiaters feel that you are denying profitable opportunities to yourself, and, because we like you, don't like seeing that happen.SamT
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. [Einstein] Tks, BossHogg.
""We negotiaters feel that you are denying profitable opportunities to yourself, and, because we like you, don't like seeing that happen."" Sam , Thank You for the caring, I mean that. There used to be a an old time local builder here in my small comunity that more than once was known to have told a prospective client this: "If you need to ask how much the job is going to cost , you can't afford me"
Now I feel fairly certain that he was exaggerating some, and that in fact he probably (like the rest of us mere mortals ) did have to justify his price. The point is that he was secure enough in his knowledge of himself and his work that if you didn't want HIM (Knowing that every job he did was cost +) then you wouldn't have called him.
I knew an old plumber when I lived in Montana who loved to tell the person with an acute plumbing problem:"Don't worry lady, it's nothing money can't fix"Whether you think that was negotiation or not, it was a he11uva good line. < G >
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Or the old roofer's adage " when in trouble-- we charge double"
You want it done next week.. the price is "X"
Want it done today the price is 3 x "X"
Wanted it done yesterday the price is 10 x "X"
SamT,
because i like YOU also----- I will respond.
I am HAPPY to let profitable opportunities pass me by----absolutely delited to let any number of opportunities pass me by----------
i am not looking for MORE opportunities
what I am looking for is the RIGHT opportunities.
"not negotiating"----is part of the winnowing process-----to distill all the possible projects down to the ones where I can do What I want, HOW, I want, for the Amount I want
the question is----- does the technique work?--well for me, yes it does. I know with I high degree of certainty-----------when i enter the marketplace each day---I know---- How many hours (1000)I will work this year---and How much money I will make----I know those 2 figures, today Feb. 9th--------to within about 60 hours and a couple thousand dollars
more sales--will only have me working more hours than I want to-----or worse yet---doing types of work I don't want to do.
I also know---that what I do isn't for everyone---and wouldn't work for a lot of people---------- I enjoy several advantages---limmited product lines, highly similar projects, easily defineable projects etc. My "attitude is perfect for what I do----but highly unsuited to most other things, LOL.
BTW----------I have no idea where you were going with "speech accent,hair color,diet,sun sets in the west"------------
but I can tell you---quite reasonably----it's a little" insulting" to imply--------that YOU know better than "I" do ---what is best for me in my particular situation-----it's a little insulting to imply that because "I" choose different techniques to accomplish my goals------than "YOU" would choose-----that I must be wrong.
If we had the SAME goals---then things might be different------but some of you folks blow right past when dovetail or I point out what our goals are----and essentially you say" no,no,no---you don't really mean that---you need to abandon that----and pursue OUR goals with OUR techniques------"---that's a little "insulting."
I leave you free to pursue your ends---- I have no doubt that you will accomplish them----and I will pursue MY ends----content in the knowledge that my methods generate the desired result.
Best wishes,
Stephen
Nicely put, Sam. And right on the money.To those who can't stand the thought of negotiation:Do you understand that the most likely intention of many pro-negotiation posters in this thread was to help you out of what many of us see as a losing or limiting point of view.I now understand that some of you are not interested.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
""Do you understand that the most likely intention of many pro-negotiation posters in this thread was to help you out of what many of us see as a losing or limiting point of view."" hasbeen , I do understand that. A lot of the discussion here has been about semantics and differing interpretations of what negotiation means.
It does get me curious (and I would wager hazlett as well) if or how many of you have ever tried it our way?
As others have already said, I too started out with an opinion very similar to yours. I'm much happier now.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Dovetail
It does get me curious (and I would wager hazlett as well) if or how many of you have ever tried it our way?
I dont negotiate my price for the offered work, thats pretty much etched in stone, I will go up if pushed!
I dont have a problem with your comment about your policy on negotiating, or not negotiating your price for work, I'm pretty rigid on that as well and I think a lot of others on here feel the same. I dont get offended by someone trying to make me negotiate my price, not saying that you dont have the right to, but it does give me a little more insight to who I'm dealing with and that helps me tremendously.
I think that your probably negotiating in some manner and you dont, or wont, except the fact that you probably do to some degree, same as Hazlett. I'm not having any difficulty in understanding your stance on the subject though!
Doug
Doug,
I am not sure where it got started that I don't ever negotiate anything it all. I have said in here several times that I do , and I work on compromise to reach needed goals. (Although I did buy all two of my houses at the asking price, and usually simply ask the car dealers if they will accept x$, if the answer is NO and if I want the car I buy it.) I do not push it, I have learned to respect peoples boundries a lot more than when I was a youngster.
But not everything is negotiable with me ,"my price for the offered work" as you state and My ethics are some that I don't negotiate. I believe Everyone has personal boundries.
I wish I could tell you that I don't "Feel" offended when someone attempts to negotiate a lower price from me with out there being an equivilant change in scope of work , but I do. Hazlett does as well.
I listened (read) all the advice about the fact that I shouldn't, and I know that it is just some peoples way of operating in life , but I still do . I accept that about myself.
When I get told everything in life is negotiable by someone I (being a bit of a **** stirrer) always feel tempted to ask what is the cost of a night with their wife. (No mine is not for sale or rent, just one more non-negotiable item, Of course she decides her fate not me !!)
I also don't understand if the "Everything is negotiable" negotiators would also negotiate with a painting sub in a situation like this.:
House is painted, finished paint has a few "holidays" (6), do they say Ok you need to repaint all 6 "holidays" :... Painter says "hmm, how about I repaint 2 out of the 6".... Contractor , "well no, but I will accept 4 out of the six".... Painter. "Ok works for both of us I guess."
Now I realize this is an absurd scenario for this discussion , but it is in the vein that I see negotiate "everthing"
I re-read the book "House" the other day as I told "zak" I would. I still finish it feeling that if the owners had not pushed the negotiation on the final meeting they and the contractors would have had a much more pleasant and profitable experience. That original negotiation poisined the whole project.
It would be interesting to me to know if those same people would repeat their actions again today after the 33yrs. of passed time and life experience.
dovetail, I have not tried things your way. I did get fed up with a client once and, half hoping they would fire me, I raised my rate pretty substantially, figuring if I was gonna put up with the crop they were giving me, I deserved to be paid better. Apparently they agreed, as they kept on paying. I also discovered taht I really didn't mind putting up with their crop quite so much when I knew I was getting paid extremely well for it. I have no idea what all that means in the context of this discussion."If the trout are lost, smash the state."
James,
Not sure about the context either, but I agree that being well paid can make the difference between hating what I am having to deal with and merely disliking it.
I am glad it worked out.
I think alot hinges on negotiation tactics.So many people think negotiation mean beating someone down till they cave. Many don't think win-win or evaluate value rationally. Their world view is one of superiority. They're worth a million a year everyone else is worth a couple bucks an hour. I think that's why my hackles raise when negotiation is mentioned. It's that I associate negotiation with bad experiences.Negotiation isn't bad, it's just so many people negotiate badly.
Mike,
I think You missed my point.
I asked what you needed to happen to quit trying to convince those of us who dislike negotiations ...
Now My question to you was a classic opening gambit in a negotiation ..
My Asking What You Need...(what can I do for you folks?)and you blew right past it in your fervor to convince me of what I need.Sales 101...Learn to Listen.
and here you are.......
still talking .... hmmmmmmMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Dovetail
I dont care how you conduct your business, doubt that we'll ever be doing any - mostly/all in part to geography rather then anything else.
I've enjoyed this whole thread but I think its come down to semantics. I think we all negotiate wheather we admit it or not - part of our thought process.
Doug
Doug, Ok, I do negotiate... just not my prices for work.. OK?
What is so difficult to understand about that ?I to have enjoyed the thread or I wouldn't be still replying. ;-)
Mike ,
You got paid for the estimate so whats the issue there? ""so, i guess i'll lay off those two guys who hae been with me for 7 years...oh, well, maybe something will come up""
Give them both paid vacations until you can land another job. I am sure they will negotiate something in terms of reduced wages that works for all of you .
;-)
dove... are you back ?
i thought you didn't want to negotiate ?...
oh... this isn't "negotiation" is it ?..
or is it ?...
who u shidding ?
you won't negotiate price..
and you won't negotiate ethics...
BS.. of course you will .. and you do.. you just won't admit it
but , i love you anyways, man
you do nice workMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
hasbeen,
" Have you ever worked with a customer to align schedules"
the short answer is ----NO.---- I could write 5 further pages on this-----but in short, No
" what about hiring subs-----3 bids----?"
agin the answer is No.-------1st off- I don't get 3 bids------- the job will go to one of 2 subs---based on their historical suitability for that particular project. the sub tells ME when they are available-----that's when we do the project------------price doesn't enter in to it------ I already know their price.
Same thing for material delivery--- I tell the supplier what I need, and when I need it--------and I tell him so far in advance that there is simply no need to try to dicker for a "better delivery"
BTW---- If you folks read what dovetail has written, and what I have written-------we are talking specifically about"apples"
but you folks are doing backflips---to try to bring oranges ,and bananas, and grapefruit,and mangos into the discussion------and equate them with "apples"
BTW---as an aside--and not directly related to hasbeen.
several folks are insistent-----that a customer trying to dicker on price is NOT an insult.------I understand the customer may not PERCIEVE it as an insult, may not intend it to be an insult, may not have the slightest idea that it IS an insult-------but that doesn't change the fact that dovetail, or I might in fact be insulted.
I am sure you have seen this in countless social situations--------a person insults another person-----and has NO idea what they just did---untill their wife, or brother in law, or buddy explains to them that they have just stepped into a deep pile--------.
Best wishes,
stephen
Supposing you and your SO decide to go out to dinner. Who decides where you go?Supposing you might go to dinner with others. Who decides where to go?Who decides what time to meet?Who decides what day to go on?Supposing you have a trusted sub who calls you in advance and says, "man, is there any way I could show up a couple of days later than I originally said?" Supposing your family and your inlaws both want Christmas dinner in different places on the same day?Seems to me that you might have children. 'nuf said.You do negotiate. If you recognize it, you'll get more of what you want. Get more of what you want and you'll be happier.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/Negotiate. I Guess we have a different meaning of negotiate.
Charity is not negotiation. I don't consider changing the articles or specifications on a job negotiation over my price. That is the client determining for themselves what they want that they can afford. I may be able to assist them in seeing choices, or offering options , but that does not fit the definition of negotiating. Being flexible is not necessarily negotiation, although it may be. Trading services (bartering) does not involve my lowering my price. It is a matter of determining like value for my services. Finally , car dealers are one venue that negotiation is and has been expected for as long as there have been used cars and used car salesman. Different venue, different attitudes. (and yes I have paid sticker price for a car, but then again the dealer did not try to negotiate when he came to me to build his house ) There are many avenues though life that I have no desire to learn. I appreciate the concern over my mental health , emotional well being, financial position , employment etc. but really I think this saying sums up my attitude about the negotiation issue. "What is True for You is True for You
And only You." Also reminds me of the old joke of the Gentleman and Lady.. Would you sleep with me for $1 million . Perhaps says she...
"Would you sleep with me for $1.00"
"No says she, what do you think I am ."
His reply : "We have already established that , now we are discussing your price."
Amen to jim blodgetts post .
Ever buy a piece of real estate? Did you start by offering the listed price?Ever sell a piece of real estate? Did you sell for full asking price with every detail exactly the way you had imagined it beforehand?If you are sure you never negotiate, I'll assume that you are not married! < G >
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
dovetail,
it's interesting to note( I am sure that you already have)-----------
that several of the proponents of negotiating in this thread----are actually making our case for us in regaurds to the "insult"
It seems the tactic is-------------" listen you pinheads---negotiating, bargaining,haggleing is a fact of life and you idiots had better get with the program or you are gonna be left in the dust---- you all bargain every day ------so just shut up and lower your price because I had the chutspah to ask you to-------------"
LOL
you see dovetail :>),---WE are small minded if we won't bend to THEIR way of doing things.
compare that to the several" non-negotiating types"---who essentially say------- " this is what I am going to do, and this is my price-----If you wish to 'baragain' there are many other contractors who will accomodate you"
we don't tell people they can't negotiate-------- just that they can't negotiate with US----feel free to do it with whoever else you want to---but we are not interested.
BTW----- i have worked pretty hard to position myself so that I don't HAVE to dicker----and in fact there is no benefit to me TO dicker------ I understand why the other guy would like to dicker----but there is nothing in it for me.
also BTW-------- in regaurds to things like material deliveries---- i respect my suppliers too much to try to dicker for delivery times. I plan WELL ahead----and as a result save on delivery charges because by giving plenty of advance notice the delivery is done at the suppliers convenience---at a time that meets my needs----- I wouldn't insult them by trying to dicker-----------------planning eliminates the rationale
ahhhhhh, but wadda I know?
Best wishes----
stephen
I do an enormous amount of negotiating and have gotten pretty good at it despite the fact that like a lot of you I don't like the traditional approach to negotiating. The old "horse trade" where I demand $100, you offer $10 and we each slowly but surely modify our positions until we reach some point in the middle always bothered me. I have no choice but to negotiate on a regular basis, so I had to find a way to negotiate and like it. I did a couple of things that helped.
First, STOP TAKING OFFENSE. We live in a culture where negotiating is normal and expected. When somone tries to initiate a negotiation they are NOT insulting you, they are merely assuming that you are more like everybody else than maybe you are. They have no way of knowing that you hate to negotiate, that you have truly given them your best price, that there is no room to move. How could they know that? We live in a culture where the vast majority of deals DO involve some room to move. Taking offense only hurts you.
Second, STOP GIVING OFFENSE. If somebody tries to negotiate and you don't want to, don't say something like "take it orleave it" or "what, I don't deserve to feed my kids?" Calmly and politely say "I'm sorry, but that really is the only price I can do this for. I've got to work at these rates to stay in business, but I will do a fantastic job for you." A lot of folks will be pleasantly surprised by this approach and end up agreeing with you.
Third, REDEFEINE "NEGOTIATION." Stop thinking of the arab rug dealer model, and start thinking of how useful a negotiation can be. There is no better way to learn what a customer really wants than to talk to them about it. I don't do "horse trading" except as a last resort. I'd far rather say something along the lines of "this is what I will have to do to complete teh job the way you described it. It's going to take me 12 hours, and $400 worth of materials, and that's what my price is based on. If you think there's some other way I could do it that would save time or materials, let's talk about it." I find that this comment draws one of three responses: (1) the other person says "okay, let's do it"; (2) the other person says "well, what if we did this instead" and describes a different way to get the job done that might be cheaper; or (3) the person says "I just can't do that price, thanks anyway and thanks for your time." That third outcome is disappointing but you've both just avoided a lot of frustration and bad feelings, and you both walk away thinking "we tried, but it wasn't meant to be."
We ALL negotiate, every day. Even you guys who say you don't do it, do it all the time. You call your supply house and ask for a delivery first thing in th emorning and they say, "sorry, we're pretty booked, is 2 pm okay?" You say, "is there any way you could make it by noon?" and you are in a negotiation. You call for a delivery and they say "can't make it before 2 pm tomorrow" and you call another supply house, you have also just engaged in a negotiation, it wasn't a verbal negotiation, but it definitely was one, and you've just used the nuclear option. Learn to negotiate on terms that you enjoy and you will become quite good at it."If the trout are lost, smash the state."
I do not go thru my life negotiating prices for medical procedures, cars , food or anything else. Think about all the purchases you make in a week and tell me that you negotiate every one of them.. Gasoline? Utilities? Groceries? Medication?
I see negotiating as being abnormal and unexpected in my business.
Yes I shop .. I have the alternative to spend my money elsewhere.. that is not the same as negotiating with a store/doctor/dentist/supplier over what I will pay.
People who approach me with their mindset that I should negotiate do offend me, I don't approach them that way and they sure seem to take offense that I don't . Since when is it that I should be as others are?
Reminds me a wanna be client who insisted that I "had" to work under a "fixed bid contract" instead of cost + a fixed fee. The clients logic was that everybody else did it , that I couldn't be in business if I didn't.
I just looked at him as I picked up my estimate and contract documents and said: " Been doing it this way for 12 yrs. now. I seem to still be in business, You called me I didn't call you."
Dovetail, if you go through life taking offense, then most of the time you'll be feeling offended. Your choice.
No, I don't try to negotiate my groceries or my doctor, but I do shop around for both, which is a form of negotiation. It strikes me as odd that a builder would compare his services to groceries, or his industry to the much-maligned medical one. I do negotiate with my accountant, my custodial service, my landscaper, my auto mechanic, and my employees (off the top of my head). I do regularly negotiate for groceries (when I shop the local farmer's market), and nobody seems to get offended whether I buy anything or not. I also negotiate with my wife (I want to go fishing, she wants to go hiking, we agree to go for a hike along a stream and I bring my flyrod). I don't know how big your business is (or what it is), but I hope that if you were planning on buying any materials in large volume you would try to negotiate a better deal (for your client if not for yourself).
Like I said, it can be a wonderful way to learn about people, and what they really want. With the example you set out, I hope you didn't miss an opportunity to explain why you thought cost+fee was a better approach than fixed bid, or ask why he thought fixed bid was better. You might have gotten a job, you might have helped educate someone, and even if you didn't you might both have felt better about the whole experience. On the other hand, it's entirely possible the guy was a jerk, in which case, like you, I would have walked away, but without taking offense.
Your mileage may vary.
"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
James,
If I understand correctly you are a lawyer.
Do you negotiate your hourly fee with every client that comes to you ?
How do you explain to the one that paid more per hour than another the justification for that?
Not with every client, Dovetail, but close to it. I charge different rates for different types of work. Most of my work is for unions, and they all pay the same hourly rate. With one exception, one union is an extremely good client and buys about 1/3 of my time every month. They get a special deal, and a lower rate because they pay in advance for a guaranteed minimum number of hours. I renegotiate that deal every year. Other clients pay a variety of different rates, and usually, they don't even know what I charge someone else. If they happen to find out, there is always a good reason for why they are paying more or less, since I only engaged in principled negotiation with clients.
I still think you take far too narrow a view of negotiation, but, contrary to your assertion, I don't take offense if you don't want to negotiate. I'm on this board to get some help occasionally, and I just thought that here was a chance for me to actually offer some help by describing an alternative approach to negotiation that might enrich your life. You don't want, no skin off my back. "If the trout are lost, smash the state."
A couple of different viewpoints
I am an electrical engineer by trade, and photography is my hobby.
Within some limited circles, my photography is very well known. There is never any negotiating done for my photography. The price is exactly the same for everybody. I never accept payment and thus I cannot be bought. I maintain total and absolute control.
As an electrical engineer for a large defense contractor, everything is negotiated - it is a contractual and legal requirement. Every detail that goes in a bid must be justified. The government tries to find ways to cut costs, we do our best to make sure that they do not sign us up for something that we can't do for that price.
I respectfully suggest that the question "To negotiate or not to negotiate" may allude to a deeper issue. One of personal power. I don't mean "I can do a great job so pay me a lot of money". I mean the quiet solid knowledge that you are secure in your own worth and no one else can shake that. When I started out doing "handyman" work I had clients trying to get me to work as cheaply as possible for them. I had one client, who I was working for on an hourly rate, that tracked the exact hour and minutes when I was at his house working on his project and refused to pay me for the time I took to go get necessary bits and tools I needed to proceed on the project. (Admittedly I wasn't as efficient in that area as I am today) I said okay I needed to work on that anyway, so you can pay me less than I've worked. I took that as well as many other learning experiences and realized that CLIENTS WILL ONLY TREAT ME AS WELL AS I PERCEIVE MYSELF. If I don't feel worth the price I'm charging even if it's reasonable and what I need inorder to survive, that will translate into how the client appears to feel about the project, no matter how excellent of a job I do they will wish it cost less. That is a question of self-worth, of self-power.When I approach a project from a base of power. With the knowledge that I do what I do well and conduct myself honorably, and that I am well worth every penny I am asking because it is not only fair to me, but is fair to them as well. I am always received with respect and gratitude for work I do and the professionalism I bring. The only difference is my perception of myself. My personal power. From this place, all discussions with the client are simply about what will make the them happiest with the final product. And this rarely relates to the final cost of the project being less. If there is a way for them to save money, we find it together. In fact, it almost always results in the client paying for additional things they want done. Now, I have clients that insist that I charge something for the time the've taken up by all of their phone calls with questions about the project. And the possible clients who would try to get more for less simply don't call after I give them the bid. Which is fine by me.
When you know your worth, you can't take offense at someone trying to dicker that away.
And you'll find that they aren't as likely to try. It's been a tough road to learn this lesson and there will be plenty more further on down, but I feel that I've at least learned this one. Now I just have to remember it.Ottcarpentry
Much wisdom in what you say .
I agree that there is much wisdom in Ottcarpentry's post. And I never meant to suggest that anyone here should downplay their own worth, so if I said something that sounded like that, it was unintentional.
This week, I'm a glass-half-full kind of guy and feel like looking for the good in every situation. By the end of next week, I'll probably be advising you to tell the joker to kiss your tailpipe if he doesn't like your bid. Overall, I think this has been a fruitful discussion, lots of smart things said, lots of honest conversation, I hope it was win-win for everybody.
"If the trout are lost, smash the state."
JamesJust to be clear. I was simply sharing my thoughts and experiences with everyone, not responding to anyone in particular. I've only recently found BT and am grateful to find that there is a community of people to interact with. As a remodeler, I usually handle everything from framing to painting on my own and don't have much opprotunity chat or discuss work with other tradesman. It's nice to know there's other guys (and gals) out there putting as much effort in quality and craftsmanship as I am.Ottcarpentry
Out of curiosity-----are you any relation to Tyke Ott ???( Phill Ott)
stephen
HazlettIf you are refering to the baseball player. No, I haven't found a connection yet. Most of my family is concentrated in the Northwest. Oregon mainly. I haven't attended the family picnic since I was about 7, (if there still is one) so I couldn't say if there is another Phil or Tyke related to me. Ottcarpentry
I just remembered, I think the ball player everyone asks me about is Mel Ott. Sorry about the confusion. I'm still not sure about Phill. Ottcarpentry
James,
I have appreciated your insight and knowledge on various threads here at BT.
Right now I am questioning myself as to whether I am too "Black and White" in my thinking, self examination is always a good thing.. But we obviously have differing views on the definition of negotiation.
I had a thought about this negotiation issue. I give a price to a client, they accept. Fine, contract signed & sealed.
... Now I personally don't ever walk away and wonder if I could have charged more for my services than I asked and received. I never pause before signing the contract and ask if they don't wish to pay me more for my work than I asked for. Maybe others do, but I don't know the answer to that .
I have never ever had a client offer to do so either unless I was doing a charity job and whether I was going to get paid for the job was never an issue to begin with.
I wonder how often the "Negotiation fans " offer to pay more for something than the asking price? Just negotiation going the other way.
I don't believe I stated that I never ever negotiate, just that I don't negotiate my price for the work spec'd out.
I consider a lot of things in my pricing. I too have one client that will call me to be his super and for me his work means 12-18 months steady employment. I have no overhead while working for him , he pays for everything and backs me up at every turn. So my hourly rate to him is less than it is to others who expect me to carry their material costs, run things through my books and continually question my decisions etc. That situation is much like yours with your primary union.
I am admittedly a pretty rigid thinking person by nature, a fact that at times has caused me trouble in the past. The plus side of it for my clients is that I will be just as rigid in following the job specs and delivering what was called for to the best of my ability. I do not look for ways to cut corners and add to my wages or profit on a job. Do I look for alternatives to offer them? Yes, but that isn't dickering over my price , that is trying to help them achieve some semblance of that they want at a cost they can afford.
I do not go thru my life negotiating prices for medical procedures, cars , food or anything else.
hmm...
I traded 6 Walnut doors for obstetric services when DW was pregnant with our son - everyone is still happy with that...
the new cars we've bought (2),(things are bit looser now than during those pregnant years), we've educated ourselves about what we wanted and found out how much the vehicles cost the dealer, and went knowing how much we were willing to pay - there was definately negotiating - - do you pay sticker?
I doubt I've ever done a farmers market that I didn't trade my fruit for someone elses product -
I know some of my customers are poor - I keep their needs in mind as fruit inventory waxes and wanes during the season - I sold drops out of the orchard for $2 last fall - 'you pick 'em up' - there are kids eating apple sauce right now because of it - I'd give it away for a good cause, but paying a small amount lets the mother maintain dignity - -
I trade stuff with my artist friends all the time...
I'd be surprised if you and I couldn't work a deal if the opportunity offered...
it's an interesting life...
that said, if some yahoo just wants to beat on me for a buck, I am perfectly capable of sending them on their way - nothing uglier than money worshippers -
"there's enough for everyone"
I'm with you--if a potential client doesn't like the terms they're welcome to ask someone else.
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
Nicely said!
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Jim,
But for all the rest of you like minded knuckleheads - have you been able to use some technique to keep your knee from jerking?
Not sure if this will help you but someone once described negotiations being like shadow boxing. No matter how much they swing at you, they only hit air. While they are swinging I am collecting information about them and what they want, by asking questions. Once I feel I have enough information, then we move forward.
One technique is silence. It gives the impression you are thinking about what the client just said, but also gives you time to formulate a more rational response.
Another is called "feel, felt, found" It acknowleges the clients feelings, explains that other people have felt that way too, and you go on to explain that the other clients found that your solution was the best option. My guess is Dovetail could have answered the client who wanted fixed price by saying something like, "I understand that you feel a fixed price will keep you from getting screwed. Other people have felt the same way. What they found was by using a cost plus fixed fee contract, we were better able to design and build the project, more to their liking and at the best value."
Something else to do is ask the client to clarify a comment they made for you. Again you are looking for information, and an oportunity to explain something they may not understand. That way they have the chance to "make a new decision" and "Save face", rather than having to admit defeat at not being able to get you to lower your price, (or whatever)
Hope that helps,
Bowz
PS I really hated this stuff when I started out. But by having a few techniques to fall back on, it becomes more bearable.
Just to clarify my response and what led me to it.
The prospective client was INSISTING that I could not operate my business the way I had many years.
At the point anyone insists that I change who or what I am I leave.
Cheers.
OK understood. In my world someone like that would have been told to go to heck in such a way as to look forward to the trip!
This discussion reminded me of 2 very rich clients who knew how to negotiate to a "they win/ I lose position. The last one was about 3 years ago on a kitchen install.
2 Weeks ago this same guy calls up because they had a plumbing pipe burst, and all the base cabinets need to be removed, in order to replace the hardwood. "Ah....so sorry. I am way booked up and can't even look at it." "That's too bad, because I sure am having a hard time finding anyone to even look at it." (Gosh, I wonder why?)
Bowz
dove... and you too, blodgett...
haven't you guys ever picked up some of these books ?
"Selling the Invisible"
"Make peace with Anyone "
"Getting past No "
"Positioning"
"Guerilla Marketing"....
just the way you present yourself is a part of negotiating... how did you ask your first girlfriend for a date ? how did you getr your curfew extended with your parents ?
c'mon... everything in life is a negotiation and some are better at it that others
and you... yup, Y-O-U, are better at it than when you started in this business and you can get better still, and more comfortable in doing it
you know.... i never wanted to be a SALESMAN when i was growing up... guess i was scared of being Willie Lomax.. but eventually it occurred to me.. we are all salesmen.. and what we are selling is ourselves..
SALES involves "negotiation"..... and negotiation can take many forms.. it can be rigid..or pliable.. or it can involve "win-win"
it also helps to figure out what your potential customer is REALLY looking for.... the more you think about it, the more you realize .. i have to sell this job... it isn't going to sell itself..
and the alternative is .. your customer can wind up with someone else doing the job... and they won't be as good as you, and the customer won't be as happy... but
you failed to sell and they didn't buy .. when all you had to do was negotiate ( sell )..... it's a skill, not a dirty wordMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike,
I can't say that I have read any of the books. I honestly don't have any desire to learn sales. I have two brothers who are very, very successful at that.
Once when I did try sales I spent most of a yr. trying to make a sale to one wholesale/retail outfit, never happened.
About 3 months after I gave up on sales and strapped my belt back on to feed my family the manager of the outlet called me up, wondered if I wanted a sales job.
I asked him why he would hire me as a salesman, I had already proved I couldn't cut it , and he himself had never bought a dimes worth of product from me.
His response was " I can find saleman that can and will sell freezers to Eskimos, but I can't find saleman who are honest and willing to do the face to face service." "You are that kind of person , I want you here."
Now the ex wife refused to move to the new local so I refused the job.
I can sell service,I can sell Myself, I can sell anything I believe in. And if you won't buy thats OK with me.
I just don't like it. Making a sale just so I can make more profit disgusts me personally, there is no joy in it at all. I hated every job I ever got by selling it to the client.
Heck , being a project super is all about sales.. I negotiate/sell you on the idea that I will take care of your needs, help you , make your life easier, see you get paid, speed up change orders and you eat out of my hand and will do what I ask and need from you without a whimper and smile while you are doing it because I bend over backwards to understand your needs.
I don't want to offend anyone here, nor argue about this, I understand others feel differently , and thats OK.
Thanks, Bowz. I am going to try to find those tapes mentioned earlier, too.
I think what it's really about for me is communication style. It helps me when I make my peace with the other person's communication style - not take it as their attitude necessarilly, but instead just a style they might not even be aware of.
Romania wasn't built in a day.
To extend your comment;
It helps me when I make my peace with the other person's communication style
Now that Mr.Smith has brought books into the equation, I will add get a copy of "Secrets of Closing The Sale" by Zig Ziglar. I don't think it is in print anymore, but a few months ago there were 42 used ones at Amazon. Probably available at the library if you want to read before buying. (It is deffinately worth owning)
To me the book was about so much more than just sales. It is a short course in human interaction. After reading it you will realize why Mike says that everything is sales.
Since you mentioned different communication styles, one part of one chapter takes a humorous but serious look at various personality types, and what they are looking for and how to sell to them. Examples include "Sydney Skeptical, Hostile Helen, Betty Bargain Hunter, Heloise Hurry-up, Nora Know-It-All, Bobby Big Shot", and others.
And I'd second the book "Selling the Invisible"
Bowz
I think sometimes people say that when they honestly feel they have to relate information that you are not wanting to hear.Other times, sure, it's a dodge.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
>>>>>>>>>I think sometimes people say that when they honestly feel they have to relate information that you are not wanting to hear.Yup - I tend to start a sentence with "Honestly,........" when that's the situation. I can remember cases where I've used "to tell you the truth,....." as well.http://logancustomcopper.com
http://grantlogan.net/
It's like the whole world's walking pretty and you can't find no room to move. - the Boss
I married my cousin in Arkansas - I married two more when I got to Utah. - the Gourds
I agree with the practice submitting my fee for architectural services on the basis that there is no fluff in there just incase someone wants to negotiate me down. I don't mind knocking off a couple of hundred dollars to get a job, but you'd be surprised how many people look dumbfounded to hear that a couple of hundred dollars means $200 and not $900 or more.
If they insist on more I just ask them which part of the project they don't want me to cover on the drawings. Once again, like deer in headlights, HUH? Sorry, I don't mean to associate deer with the "HUH types".
""Once again, like deer in headlights, HUH? Sorry, I don't mean to associate deer with the "HUH types"."" Well how about : "thief in the spotlight" instead?
Despite the really bad title, there is an audio recording set by a guy named Roger Dawson that is really good at conveying negotiation skills and perspectives. It's titled "The Secrets of Power Negotiation" and I originally got it from a mail order (that's how long I've had it!) place called Nightingale-Conant.
I have listened to it probably 30-40 times over the past 20 years. It's entertaining and incredibly useful to find win-win solutions. I've given it as a gift several times.
As to those who supposedly won't negotiate, they will. You are just running into their personal style of negotiation.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
As to those who supposedly won't negotiate, they will. You are just running into their personal style of negotiation.
That is a diachotomy, an anomoly or a contradiction unto itself.
Is that a quote from the tape?[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
It's not a contradiction. It's a paradox.It is not a quote from the tape set.Successful negotiation requires a solid rapport with the other party. Rapport is something that can be had in various ways. If you don't know what I'm talking about and you'd like to, I suggest you start by listening to those tapes a few times.Otherwise it would be like someone trying to explain the basics of quantum physics to me (since I know virtually nothing about the topic), i.e. beyond the scope of a forum conversation.
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
>Roger Dawson that is really good at conveying negotiation skills and perspectives. It's titled "The Secrets of Power Negotiation
I give a HEARTY and FULL recommendation to that. I heard those tapes 20 yrs ago and still use the information TODAY, from negotiating with customers, salespeople, even my kids. (You ever use the "withdrawn offer" technique? It goes like this:
Dad, can I have three cookies?
No, two cookies.
Please, please can I have three?
No. two.
c'mon, just this once? can I have three?
<kick in technique>
Um... Listen, I think I made a mistake. You can have ONE.
Oh. No, two will be OK.
<end of conversation>
yeah, if you've never heard those tapes, get 'em. I'll buy 'em off you if you don't think you got the value out of them.
i live in a grey world.... very little is black and white for me.... because i learned very early that no one sees things the same... both might be right... I love to hear what the other person is thinking and why...
Bruce sounds alot like my oldest brother... their is no grey in his world... it is or it isn't... i'm not say'n it's a bad way to be... but i know there is more conflict when when you set anything in stone...
I so look at life as a game... business is a game... everything i do short of my personal relationships... are games i play... I love being outplayed it's the only way to learn to better your game...
when someone asks... "can you do it/ can i have it/ cheaper" i have always said sure... how cheap do you want it? i'm always curious what people are think'n... doesn't mean i'll take their offer but i like to know what it is...
i never want to offend anyone with stupid offers... so most of the time i walk away if a price is just out of my ball park... i thank em... and tell em "sorry i just can't spend that for that at this time... i'm sure it's worth it but I'll have to pass..." if they ask me to make an offer after that I will....
none of my rent rates are cast in stone.... it always depends... alot has to do with if i like the person.... or the type business.... you can wear me out... i have a lady that has some nail places she is from Vietnam... she will argue over $25 that doesn't go into effect for 5 years... BUT she pays on time/early i never hear from her... and she works very hard...
i think it was Hitler who said... "never argue over the terms of contract you have no intention of honoring"
p... sorry for the random thoughts.... alot of coffee today
i used to have a used car lot. there is no one that can negotiate like a viet nemase. i was told that that is just part of their culture. they woulds spend all day over 25.oo.. if i had a bussiness that needed someone to go out and do contracts,thats who l would hire,there is nobody better, you can say no 10 times and they just try a different approach and go again. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I don't know if you were around during the Paris Peace Talks (1969-1973). Henry Kissinger went to Paris and got a hotel room ... he knew it wouldn't take long to get an agreement with North Vietnam. Le Duc Tho, on the other hand, signed a multi-year lease for a villa. "Wearing down" the adversary is a very, very effective strategy used in many cultures, including car dealerships.
kissinger was such a arrongant guy anyway he needed cut down a little. i often felt that way standing out there on the lot in 15 degree weather.i should just warm a car up and go sit down.:] something i always noticed is some people when negotiating get irrate. these guys always kept a grin on their face and never changed the tone of their voice. i was definatly going to run out of stamina before the were. larryhand me the chainsaw, i need to trim the casing just a hair.
I'm in a position somewhat the opposite of yours, Eric- stuck in between a boss that will give too much, or promise the moon, and a HO that will dig her heels in over anything. So what do you do when the other side refuses to negotiate?
It seems that you have to refuse also. The relationship becomes adversarial quick, but it's the only way to not give too much.
I think negotiation is important- it should be an education for both sides. I should learn what the HO wants, how much they feel comfortable spending, what the priorities of the project are in their eyes, etc. They should get a good idea of what sort quality and quantity they'll be getting, and what my flexibility is on those issues.
Of course, all this learning shouldn't be just in the negotiation, it should be throughout design, but negotiation is another tool.
zak
"When we build, let us think that we build forever. Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone." --John Ruskin
"so it goes"
Well, let me rephrase that question.
So I understand that your boss said it holds water so it's good enough?
That means the homeowner isn't that pleased and yet you are just forced to go on to something else as the boss dictated?
CALIFORNIA...
Santiago Alvarado, 24, was killed in Lompoc, CA, as he fell face-first through the ceiling of a bicycle shop he was burglarizing.
Death was caused when the long flashlight he had placed in his mouth(to keep his hands free) rammed into the base of his skull as he hit the floor.
are you 'simple but elegeant'?
Edited 2/5/2007 9:06 pm ET by rez
HO says it is unacceptable because it could have been cut so it would be one peice, not the seamed up abortion the plumber created.
The plunber was stumped, so to get things going I called the boss. he says he's not paying anyone for anything, it floats or sinks.
Plumber (worker) pretty much agreed he should have done it different.
So the onus (sp) is on the plumber.
Stay tuned.
Be a seamless shower pan.
Better yet, be Schluter.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
that's an insult????????????
Heck , mike smith has been using that phrase for years----------I thought everybody takes it as good clean fun
in some circles--it's a badge of honor to have mike direct one of those at you-----LOL
Let me be the first----------Free Eric
Stephen
Stephen et al,
It wasn't my sole decision, but feel free to start a Free Eric campaign if you see fit. The punishment stands. Justin Fink - FHB Editorial
Your Friendly Neighborhood Moderator
I wish there was someway of us knowing exactly what gets us a spanking.
Oh well, maybe we can just insult each other in 1337 (aka: leet).
Maybe you guys could come up with a little dunce cap icon that could be added after our screen name if we screw up. : )
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
Holy cow!
I mean HOLY COW!
Careful there... I think that's supposed to be SPIRITUAL BOVINE!
"Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd."
~ Voltaire
I will not post a pic of MrT.
I will not post a pic of MrT.
be I will not post a pic of MrT
only life affirming platitudes allowed - Doud '07
Go ahead you have my express permission to post a pic of me...
I may regret it
but it should be good for a laugh...
is laughing still allowed on BT???
be laughing at fhb getting what they wish forWelcome to Breaktime
Home of
The Aristocrats
is laughing still allowed on BT???
Only if its a polite giggle - none of that boisterous laughter
Doug
Hey!
Keep it down back there.[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
no way kemo sabe. Can't risk a demerit.
I'm thinking those days of free riding the range are drawing to a close.
The fences are going up and the acreage is being sectioned off as the cattle&wild stallions are grouped together for herd control.
It was a good ride tho' and full of pleasant memories.
be best to you on the other side
be wondering if they'd really rather not be seeing cartoons on the posts eitherView Image
PMP
only life affirming platitudes allowed - Doud '07
Edited 2/10/2007 1:42 pm ET by rez
Figures, just about the time I find my way to the wildwest it goes and gets all suburbanized.
Story of my life.
What about sheep? You didn't mention sheep!
Daaaaaaaaaad. Romania wasn't built in a day.
I wouldn't run the risk.
be a stiff little wooden toy soldier marching in line
PMP
only life affirming platitudes allowed - Doud '07
Edited 2/10/2007 2:06 pm ET by rez
Bought Richard Dawson's negotiating cds last week and have been listening to them. I sure hope they help. Thanks for the tip, whoever it was.
Also picked up some cds by Ram Dass - before you know it I'll be negotiating my to a teepee and hosting a fest!Remodeling contractor who once visited the Glass City.
Enjoyed this thread a lot, sorry to see it die.
Just finished reading Bob Woolf's book "Friendly Persuasion: How to negotiate and win" Writer is a lawyer who made big bucks for himself and his clients representing sports and entertainment legends.
Masterfull. Highly recommend it.