odd way of insulating exterior wall
Hello. This is my first post, so I will say who I am. My nane is jamie, and I own a small construction company in Ontario, Canada.I am currently building a straw bale house for a client, although I build in more conventional materials as well. My current client would like to insulate the exterior of his foundation wall with new freezer door cutouts that he has managed to source. They are r12, with enameled steel on each face. Would it make sense to stick them to the outside of the wall with something like pl premium, then damp proof the outside of this structure, or damp proof the wall then apply the panels? I am not sure about how adhesive sticks to damp proofing. We will be parging any exposed surfaces. Thanks for reading and thinking about this.
Replies
What is freezer door cutouts? If it is what I'm thinking ( some local mfg has these as rejects) and you are going to incorporate these into a new house? And he's paying you to do this! And this insulation is added to a straw bale house! Did I ask this before: He's paying you to do this?
I think it would make sense to stick them on the side of a parked tractor trailer.
Other than that, I can't help you and by the way welcome.;)
roger ( formerly of Collingwood/Barrie area)
thanks for your reply. My understanding, and this is based on what the client tells me-I expect to see a sample of this in the next day or so, is that these are left over from the manufactuing process of making industrial freezers. They are not seconds, and can be considered like any other insulation product, except that they are faced with steel. That would obviously make them heavier and more difficult to work with, but the cost is half that of ridgid insulation. I know of someone who used these to insulate under a floor, and the local inspector seemed to think that it was fine. These are only foundation insulation. So, if it was my house, would I do this? Probably not. If someone wants to pay me to stick it on his house, will I do it? Only if I think that it will result in a job I can point to in 20 years and still take pride in.
No way of telling what they are unless the manufacturer knows, but if the foam isn't treated with borate the bugs will eventually leave nothing but the sheetmetal.
Joe H
JoeH
I think you missed where he was posting from.. besides if they are encased in stell unless your northern carpenter ant carries a torch with him I don't see how it will get into the foam.. frankly with all that wood around, you'd think they would rather go into their tradional habitat..
I think you missed where he was posting from.. besides if they are encased in stell unless your northern carpenter ant carries a torch with him I don't see how it will get into the foam..
Frenchy, think about this a minute. If you decided to cut a door in your SIP, what would you have? A sheet of foam encased in OSB. Just exactly what these metal freezer door cutouts look like.
As to the why of bug behavior, I can't help you. Ants like foam, since there are zillions of them eventually there is no foam left.
Joe H
Joe H,
Well ants in my neck of the woods must not read what you do.. nearly every single new home you see with poured walls has foam outside. You rarely ever see block walls anymore,, simply too slow and too expensive.
I needed to dig up my walls to put in an irragation system and a landscape lighting system so I thought I would use that time to confirm that no ants have infested my foam.. they haven't.
Termits don't get north of Iowa, we simply don't allow them up here the minnesota border patrol checks every load to ensure they don't hitchhike up here for the summer fun and party season.. ;-)
Frenchy, ants eat foam, that is why it is treated with borate. Those ICF blocks contain borate too.
More than likely your SIPs are treated, if not wait for ants. They'll get to you eventually, unless there are no ants in Minnesota.
Go here, read about it.
http://www.r-control.com/
http://www.afmcorp-epsfoam.com/icf.asp
Joe H
Joe H
Does the regular Dow pink or blue foam have borate? If not then tens of thousands of homes that I've seen will have ants eating their foam surrounding the poured walls.. Even the few block walls I see still being used have a fiberglas mat surrounding foundations and as several others have pointed out ants nest in fiberglas..
Yes, My SIP's have borate as do my ICF's
Frenchy, is there some point to your endless arguing about this?
Are the manufacturers wrong to add borate?
Why didn't you have your SIPs custom made withou the borate?
Are you stupid or what? This makes no more sense than your insistence that cellulose will cause your house to rot.
Enough, think what you like, ants eat foam.
Joe H
JoeH
I can tell when you've lost the argument,, you start to abuse other by calling them names.. Let's try to keep this discussion civilized shall we?
I report that most homes have simple foam around their foundations here in Minnesota.. You haven't bothered denying that.. So either every new home is about to have ant infestations as you have repeatedly said or you have some fact wrong.. It's really that simple.
As for cellulose causing homes to rot I've never said that.. The worst statement I've ever said about cellulose is that if it gets wet it has no insulation value.. you really should keep your arguments straight..
Don't know why JoeH has such a hair up for you....But now I'm curious. The only ants I've seen in foam, the foam was more like the granular "coffee cup" type, and it was above ground, behind some Dryvit. I'm thinking, given the amount of blue Dow board buried up against foundations around the country, that either ants don't eat that foam in that location, or it's treated, or Dow has some fine print somewhere that says the end user is responsible for making sure he's keeping the ground around his house well poisoned.....
jrnbj
JoeH and I crossed swords with regard to celluliose insulation. I found very poor results with it and rep[orted it and I believe he either installs it or believes deeply in it, so we diifer.
That's OK, I like a lively debate and I'll give JoeH full marks for keeping the discussion civil and lively..
There's that, and he knows I'm right.
Joe H
JoeH.
Well thank you for admitting that I'm right DanH. Very big of you. ;-)
Most small men would insist on mainting an opinion in error. I'm glad to see that you accepted the fact that foam is superior to Celluliose.
I think its a good idea. More R value for less money. How much of the foundation is above and below grade? It will be interesting to see how much they weigh.
The previous point about borate may be what could kill this idea. The panels do not contain borate treated foam. Does anyone have any other opinions about the bug issue? What about foam is attractive to bugs anyway?
Sorry, forgot this bit. Most is below grade. On a 58 x 38 foot foundation, one 8 x 58 section is above grade.
They like foam because it's easy to burrow in and make nests.
Can you insulate inside the foundation instead of the exterior? You loose the thermal mass of the concrete but there are several advantages, including being away from the bugs....
Thanks, Mike. This is what we have decided to do.
My current client would like to insulate the exterior of his foundation wall with new freezer door cutouts that he has managed to source. They are r12, with enameled steel on each face. Would it make sense to stick them to the outside of the wall with something like pl premium, then damp proof the outside of this structure, or damp proof the wall then apply the panels?
You need another client. One with common sense.
They sound like freezer panels and they were NEVER designed for the stated application. never meant to be below ground level, never meant to be within 6 inches of ground level.
He probably stole them from one of my garbage containers and wants to build using found material.
You wouldn't be in the Barry's Bay area would you. For those of you who are not familiar with Barry's Bay, it's colonized by grass smoking, draft dodging hippies from the sixties who never grew up and joined the real world.
BTW welcome
Gabe
These panels are sold by a local Home Building Center and we have dewcided to nix this idea after a discussion with a building inspector (though not one who would have jurisdiction on this job) Turns out lots of folks use them, and just happen to get away with it. My client at least has the sense to listen to reason. We are far away from Barrys bay, by the way. Thanks everyone for taking the time to weigh in on this.
that is quite the comment about Barry's Bay. I had a couple of friends from there when I lived in rez at Carleton. Maybe they got kicked out of Barry's Bay for non compliance.
Either way this freezer door idea seems ludocrous to me.
Have a good day
Cliffy
PS Tsn was reporting yesterday some shake ups coming with the Sens. Could Muckler be getting the handshake?
I hope so and I hope that they shift Murray up to GM and get a coach like Quinn to bump this team up to the last level.
Gabe
We're going to let the Sens have the freezer doors and use approved insulation instead. I just hope the NHL sees the light and lets us have a team in Waterloo region. Hamilton dosen't need it, and hockey in Nashville makes about as much sense a igloos in Texas.
If your from KW you better build a rink quick. Connestoga is not big enough for a real team.
Have a goo day
Cliffy
Just a thought...I believe the R-value on refridgeration products takes into account the effect of the gas inclusions. That is why you can get R-12 out of a urethane product a little over an inch thick. However, as these gases disipate over the years, so does the R-value. After 10 years, it will be closer to R-7 or so as would a typical high denisty urethane panel. That is OK for a freezer since they are replaceable, but I would want any product installed on a house to maintain its r-value for the lifespan.
Glad to see reason prevail and those freezer doors are only used for what they're intended--keeping the Sleeman's chilled. Last time I got to drink some was 2 years ago in London, when the Knights won the Guv's cup.
And sorry about those 'Sens, I was rootin' for them all the way, even tho 1/2 the Ducks played for my hometown Pirates before making the Bigs. This year was a repeat for me, watching the playoffs and Screaming "Pronger Yer a PUNK!!" Only this year it was at my t.v., --last year I got to scream it while pounding on the glass in Raleigh....ah, memories, once in a lifetime.
Regarding the predators, DW & I spent last weekend on 1st visit to Nashville--FUN city, and Great looking Arena. But personally, Canada deserves another team after all the migration south. Those few blue hockey fans left alone in Tenn. can write a sad song about a tear in their beer or something.
That Muckler gig got announced today. Murray built most of the Ducks. I don't know if Quinn can do the job the Sens need doing. I would have voted for Ted Nolan. Dave Lewis is looking for a coaching job, and there will be a couple more before long.
Randy Carlisle was contacted by the Sudbury media and told them he is bring the cup to Azilda (his home town just outside of Sudbury) this July and to Manitoulin Island. I think that will be a first.
Have a good day
Cliffy