What is the drawback to off site construction? Not Modular but Precut.
Why could we do it in the 20’s and not now?
Sure they were building many of the same unit..but they did not have computers or CAD
A lot of talk about the Sears homes
What About Aladdin Homes – Built in a day…they could get 20 feet out of a 16 foot board
edited aladdin spelling
Edited 9/18/2007 11:03 am by homedesign
Replies
I think there's a lot to recommend it. Some of those Sears homes were pretty nice--and economical.
Bucky Fuller mentioned often how stupid it was to stick-build houses on site and cited automobiles as a better example of how to do it.
Wasn't Toyota going to get into home building in the US, utilizing their car production methodology? Haven't heard anything about it lately, be interesting to see where they're going with it, these days.
I started a thread about pre-cutting roofs 94615.1, someone suggested why not the whole house? I don't think its a bad idea, if executed properly.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Don't know about Toyota, but it would be interesting to see what they could do--they build good automobiles.
This idea of pre-construction has been discussed her several times before. One thing I've said (I think I even wrote FHB about doing an article on it), is that there are many things to recommend it:
The houses or their components are put together on jigs, so they are accurately made. They are put together in ideal conditions and the materials don't sit on a job site subject to rain and snow and mud, the workers are in ideal conditions too. Lastly, everything is planned and designed into the structure. When I was framing, we'd frame up a structurally sound structure only to watch the plumbers, electricians and HVAC guys come in and cut away plates and joists to install their stuff. Changes would be made on the fly without planning--I remember sledge hammering out a gable end wall because the window openings had changed, then used the smashed lumber over again to re-frame the same wall.
You can imagine the quality of an OSB floor that has been rained on and snowed on and has had mud ground into it for a couple months, snow and ice shoveled off. Same with roof. We'd shovel snow off a roof and then tarpaper it and put on shingles when it might be 20 degrees (F) out. Shingles as brittle as corn flakes and we're freezing. No one under those conditions is going to be adjusting the air nailer to be sure no nail is overdriven. Underdriven nails we would hammer down by hand (but we usually used staples!).
We had one guy who didn't know what "on center" meant and sometimes put joists 16" apart, sometimes 16" to their outer edges, sometimes 16" to the same side ("on center"). There were guys who found it faster to put three nails through each shingle, guys who didn't bother to plumb walls, etc..
That said, if the factory owners decide to save money by doing everything as cheaply (instead of as efficiently) as possible, then factory built will be bad too. Imagine a house whose components are made in China, as someone humorously mentioned! Talk about lead paint and shorcuts! Nails whose heads fell off but were used anyway and so on. Like with American automobiles--GM figures if they save a couple dollars on each car and produce a million cars, that adds up to a couple million dollars. Use nails made out of pot metal, save a couple dollars on each house, make lots of money. Houses will probably still stay standing until their warranty period is over.
Well, you get the picture. I'll stop my rant now!
Danno,
I think you've asked and answered all the main questions. The objection to pre-cut and pre-fabs is that it's a bean counter's project not a custom home. They not only look different they feel different.
Having lived in homes that I've built with my own hands, I can say that the feel of the place is much more positive and real.
I've been pondering a similar question to the one Homedesign posted. A slightly different spin, though. My work is in a field called Lean Operations. This is the systme Toyota uses and it's sometimes called the Toyota Production System or TPS. We work with companies (mostly electronics, pharma and tech) to make operations more effective. Typical result is cycle time (think build time) decreases by 50% to 90%. Costs go down by 15% to 35%. Workers are happier and understand what they're doing better. Quality goes way up and there's no need to outsource to China or India because the labor cost component goes way down.I know, it sounds too good to be true, but I've been doing this since 1984 and I know it works from the results in a dozen large companies. The first project I worked on reduced cycle time of a manufacturing operation from 181 days to 11 days in just six months. It requires a shift from bean counter thinking to focusing on the operation itself. I've been wondering with my business partner when it'll catch on in the homebuilding sector. Pulte was experimenting with this in 2005-2006 but I suspect the downturn has caught them. They were using prefab foundations (like the recent FHB article) to address the accuracy issues already discussed and panelized walls. It's not exactly how I would have approached it, but is on track Customization is not difficult. The real issue isn't panelized vs stick (both can and will work in a Lean operation) but taking systemic view of the operation, like what Building Science does with the design phase.Why go faster? All that concrete, lumber, finishing material, etc. is just inventory until the house closes. Someone is paying interest on the loan or paying for the carrying costs. I'll be starting a home shortly and the building loan payments aren't chump change. If the house could be done in 4 months vs 9 months, it will save me thousands of dollars.But it's really the quality of the build where the most profound changes occur. When months elapse between when a defect or problem is created and when it's discovered, it's a lot harder to figure out what happened and much more expensive to correct it. We see defect rates go way down.The workers are happier, because no one really likes doing crappy work and everyone hates doing useless, valueless work.Just google Lean Manufacturing to learn more.Frank
Go Doctor Science...your 3 for 3
It requires a shift from bean counter thinking to focusing on the operation itself.
Bingo.
The objection to pre-cut and pre-fabs is that it's a bean counter's project not a custom home. They not only look different they feel different.
The amazing apparent contradiction is that the pre-cut homes of the 1920s are full of charm and character. They are really nice homes -- good floor plans, lots of attractive details, and cost effective nonetheless.
I don't really know how they were able to pull this off in the 1920s. My best explanation is simply that the dominant philosophy was different back then than it is today. I've read through some of the old catalogs, and it's obvious that the pre-cut home manufacturers were positioning themselves to deliver a QUALITY product.
Today, unfortunately, I think huge companies are obsessively focused on price point -- quality seems to be a distant priority. I guess it's just a natural result when bean counters and lawyers make all the important decisions. It's a shame, though, because with all the modern manufacturing methods at our disposal, we could be producing some extremely nice houses. Instead of making an extremely nice product at an affordable price, CNC equipment and robots are used to make a really mediocre product at an extremely low price.
I think huge companies are obsessively focused on price point -- quality seems to be a distant priority
And "the market" seems to 'agree' with them, too. Which is hugely frustrating.
But, I think that goes back to all of the people living in McApartments, high-density-housing until they can afford a house. They know that "old" equals run down, beat up, with many problems--that's what their rental units are like, aren't they?
Ergo, a "brand new" house ought to not have any problems at all, right? Well, gee, lookee here, this is a brand new subdivision, all of the houses are new. Wow, they let us pick from three different colors, too--never get that in an apartment.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
>>And "the market" seems to 'agree' with them, too. Which is hugely frustrating.<<I agree with that up to a point. Last month, someone here said that quality housing became a thing of the past when people starting viewing their homes as a short term investment, as opposed to something to be kept in the family for generations (I'm paraphrasing).So I'd definitely agree that many people are not using long-term thinking when it comes to both building and buying housing, and it has a negative impact on quality.However, I'm not really sure sometimes about how well the "market" responds to real consumer desires. For example, if all the builders offer the same mediocre product (which is largely true from a statistical viewpoint), buyers will be forced (statistically speaking) to buy the dominant product. Would the buyers opt for a different product if given the opportunity? We don't know, because it's a sort of self-fulfilling prophesy when buyers have no real choice other than to settle for the dominant product out there.I tend to think that a higher quality product would fare well on the market, but I can't prove it. Speaking from personal experience, I know that my clients are often very willing to spend more if it means they will get a higher quality product. But as a contractor, I also have to be able to clearly articulate the benefits of the better product. It involves educating the consumer so they know the difference between available products.It's a big topic, obviously.
Danno,
Thanks for ranting...it is possible...we have the technology
In my area we have surveyors that can accurately set the corners of complex footprints quickly and perfectly...thanks to CAD
We also have a plumbing company that takes the cad drawings and then precuts and ship the parts to the site
Now if the Architects could just figure out how to design houses with mechanical systems,,,wow what a concept
Around here...The plumber and the electrician are just waiting for that mechanical guy to get out of their way so they can start cutting their holes...if there is any space left!
Very good points--it's like the architect or builder is thinking, "Man, I designed this wonderful house and now these other guys are carping it all up with crazy things like heating and plumbing and electrical..." as though those things are extraneous to the house.
People may not like what Fuller designed (and I'm not that wild about some of his stuff), but at least his designs incorporated all the necessary systems right from the start (was it he or Wright who called houses "machines for living"?) Anyway, the structure and the function (and all the systems necessary to do the jobs that are needed) should be integrated. Not even "form folows function," as much as form is function.
It'd be like someone designing a human body and getting done and saying, "Oh, shoot, I guess I'd better stick in a pump to move the blood around and I guess that we'll also need some vessels for that blood. Oh, and I suppose eating and elimination would be good, so I suppose we should have some sytems for those things. Oh, and reproduction, that's always useful. Man, all these extraneous systems are sure messing up my design."
Here is a link to Aladdin Homes 1917
check out page 5
http://clarke.cmich.edu/aladdin/1917/aladdin5.htm
Was thinking about some of the responses--nothing like building on the site and the benefits of shipping all of the stuff to the site for assembly and thought, okay, why not something like a hybrid system:
Bring the factory to the site--nowadays you could erect a dome to cover the place where the building will go (or, build the roof first). Bring the machinery for construction, jigs and saws and so on to the site on big trucks. Workers come to the site, use the on-site "factories" and assemble the components into the house that is protected by the dome or other temporary tent-like structure. As many systems as possible are made to snap together (electricity would be done like a wiring harness on an automobile). Some of it could possibly be done the way cabinetry is sometimes doen now--the designer uses a computer to draw what the client wants and the plans are sent electronically to the machine that cuts and assembles the parts. Some components would be small and able to be plugged in, others may be larger and if possible, still plugged in, but maybe needing some on-site final "fastening" in place. A few things may need to be asembled from scratch, but in every case, every component and system has been pre-planned. Like putting together an audio system or a computer.
Anyway, that's my basic idea.
Edit: I'm reminded of Steve Martin's skit on SNL "Cedric of York, Medieval Surgeon" where he looks up from bleeding someone and gives a big speech about ending suffering and the barbarous practices of those days and how wonderful it could be then pauses and says, "Nah!" and goes back to what he's doing.
Edited 9/18/2007 8:08 pm ET by Danno
Ok Cedric,
Maybe not enough room on most sites to do that... It could work in a small community or small development.
You could build a basketball court, cover it with a roof, put PV on top
precut and preassemble your components
then when your done you've got a place to play and some clean power
Danno,I like your thinking! Besides, that Steve Martin skit is one of my favorites.In Lean Production, a "value stream analysis" would help decide what to do on site and what to do off site. That's just a fancy term for thinking about how what we do creates value for the final customer. I got discouraged with modular because there's so much extra framing to make them strong enough for shipping. It adds no value for the end customer, just reduces the overall R value of the wall system and uses more resources. So I say, build on site with your portable factory. I still like the idea of shipping a "kit" of materials to the site. Less weight to ship and waste to remove from the site. We used to use JIC (just in case) vs JIT (just in time), but as you get error rates down in the intermediate steps, you don't need to spend resources on error correction (the foundation is 3" to wide). But the design phase is crucial. When we've "leaned out" production areas in factories, we typically find they take less than 30% (once, it was only 10%) of the original layout size, so I don't think your portable factory has to be that big. Use the same set of tools and maybe some refined jigs. Framers already know how to use the floor system as their "layout and assembly table" for walls. It makes me believe a lot of the thinking is in place, but would benefit from being pulled together into a systematic process.At the end of the day, I'd hate to see another industry either farmed out to China or managed by the Japanese. We can't all be stock brokers and waiters.....Frank
Bring the factory to the site--
That's what's been going on, in one form or another, since power tools were invented. On a single family home, a cutting station is set up as soon as the first floor is half sheathed. Working from a cut list, one man cuts all the component pieces, stacking them in the deck to be nailed together by a second man. A couple other men lay out the wall plates. Then everyone proceeds to frame the walls, one or two at a time.
On larger jobs, condos for example, there may be a temporary saw shed built on the site. This allows for more pre cutting, out of any weather, so it usually enhances the framing process.
Most framers are always looking for new ways to be more efficient because to be otherwise makes it impossible to compete or make a good profit.
Thousands of good minds have focused for years and years on ways to improve efficiency. The methods they've developed have been passed along and improved upon, generation by generation.
So it's highly unlikely that anyone is going to revolutionalize the home building process, unless they invent a robotic device which can measure and cut twice as fast as a journeyman carpenter for the same hourly wage.
When I was a framer, the first thing we did was build or set up saw horses and put the miter saw on them (on a 2x12 so we could use stop blocks or nails for repetetive cuts). One time the boss decided I was experienced enough to make the horses--then he got upset with me because I didn't have the legs straight up and down like he always did. I explained that the horse wouldn't rack my way and he decided it was okay. (I hated it when we'd load horses with sheathing and have them rack and dump the plywood into the hole!)
Later he let me cut all the headers. I always hated either cutting them as needed or cutting a bunch and throwing them in a pile to be sorted by length and crowned later. I cut and labelled each one with its length and had an arrow for crown. (I think I even nailed them together with the plywood spacers). Made no difference--boss just grabbed what looked to be about the right length. I was sorry I wasted my time labelling them, but thought the idea would have been good if people had stopped to read the labels.
I also made it a point to save offcuts and pile them out of the way by approximate length to be used for under windows and above doors in non-load bearing walls. Most everyone else just grabbed another 8 footer and cut the needed piece off and left the remainder to be tripped on.
When I was a framer........
Reading that, you would get along great on most framing crews. Those methods you described are the accepted practice on all but least organized crews in the business.
Logic and simple organization, including indentifying numbers or measurements, are key to keeping the job moving in a way that anyone can follow.
BTW, I came up with several horse designs for different uses too. None of mine racked and they could always be passed through framed walls.
In the end, the guys who are most successful carpentry contractors are those who produce quality results with the least effort. When jobs run smoothly and efficiently, the contrator can afford to pay better wages which makes for good relations all around. So it's in everyone's best interest to work smart.
Danno, I believe that was Theodoric of York who said Nah!
I also think the waste at an average job site is a shame.
Edited 9/19/2007 6:44 pm by homedesign
I also think the waste at an average job site is a shame.
Amen to that!
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Corbusier said houses were machines for living in.
Louis Sullivan, Wright's mentor, said "form follows function," but what he meant by that (from what I've heard/read) is what you said--form is the shape that best serves the function.
As far as the human body goes, you have heard the question asked why someone would design a waste disposal system that goes right through a recreational area?
why someone would design a waste disposal system that goes right through a recreational area?
...and who could be such an awesome designer to do it in such a way that it doesn't hinder the recreational activites one iota?
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
CaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Imagine a house whose components are made in China,china has some of the prettyist hard wood around..Haga su trabajo de fricken
Another advantage to pre-built housing here in NJ is the inspection process. On a stick-built job, you lose a lot of time waiting on the inspector to come around to certify whatever stage you just finished. In some areas of the State, there's also corruption to deal with. In those areas, you'll wait a long time if you don't buy someone off.With pre-built, most of that got done at the factory. All you have to deal with is local inspection of the foundation and a final inspection. I saw one house go up in Rumson in three days with a crane and a few semis. I defy anyone to be able to tell which house on that street was pre-built today. At least from the outside.George Patterson
Interesting thread. My comments : We need to remember that in the era of Aladdin and Sears that the homes they produced held higher quality material , were (generally speaking)shipped to areas that had little of the type of lumber they used readily available and also that good builders were as rare then as they are now. I have no data to back up one thought I have which is that I would guess that the majority of the Sears and Aladdin homes sold were of the simplest type, which while well designed, were not what we romanticize about."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
I don't think anyone is advocating a return to mail-order house kits....are they? I guess I might have missed a few posts in the thread. Anyway, what I took from the discussion was just ways of thinking outside the box, looking for ways to improve, maybe fine-tune, the way we build.
Where's BlueEyedDevil these days, seems to me he used to do some pre-fab type construction on his framing jobs. And haven't several here recommeded building certain complicated comonents on the ground, and lifting with a crane? Its that type of progressive thinking that we're trying to tap into here. Isn't it? Blue?
View Image “Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles GreeneCaliforniaRemodelingContractor.com
Huck ,
I have actually done some work with simple prefabbed wall panels. Builder here simply used one of his big old turkey barns to prefab wall and floor panels. Loaded them on a flat bed truck and trailer and then made sure he had lots of help on site to unload and erect the winter weathers work. Kept him and one helper busy during the worst of the winter here. All he needed was a good cut list and he was off and away."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Edited 9/20/2007 1:05 am by dovetail97128
I have no data to back up one thought I have which is that I would guess that the majority of the Sears and Aladdin homes sold were of the simplest type, which while well designed, were not what we romanticize about.
Dovetail,
My hope is that the smart consumers will change the market.
Simple can be better....we realized that big fins and cowcatchers were not so smart on cars.
homedesign, Given that I started building passive solar homes back in the mid 70's I too have had hopes of simpler and better. The last 10 years of McMansions has again proven to me that few care."Poor is not the person who has too little, but the person who craves more."...Seneca
Interesting what you said about inspections and corruption in NJ. I suspected it when my brother tried to sell his house (in one of the Oranges, can't remember if it was east or West) and some potential buyer or Realtor sicced an inspector on him and the inspector said the garage wasn't square. I told my bro to slip the guy a twenty (fifty?) and maybe he'd see that it was okay. I know in many states that require automobiles to pass an emissions test, it's well known that your car won't pass until you give the guy the "baksheesh."
Edited 9/20/2007 7:20 am ET by Danno
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
Huck,
I enjoyed your roof cutting presentation and your WebSite
Is the Charles Greene quote a parodox?
Can a factory or precut "product" not be "Good Work"
Does good work cost more? or is it not just the attitude that counts?
Is the Charles Greene quote a parodox?
It is. In many ways, the man himsef was a paradox.
His comment has to be viewed in the context of the man and his times - an often misunderstood (and misunderstanding!) artist, constantly forced to justify the cost of his very custom work, eventually swept aside by a postwar industrial revolution (coupled with a postwar modernism), left to fade away in relative obscurity. Not sure exactly at what point in his life/career the comment was made, but there is a certain sarcasm, maybe even bitterness, in the quote, I think, if one reads between the lines.
One has only to look at photos of the interior of the Blacker House, or Gamble House, for a clear picture of what qualified to him as "good work". Today a reproduction Greene and Greene dining chair can cost upwards of $6,000.00 - compare that to the cost of a dining chair at, say, WalMart, or Levitz. This gives an idea of the nature of the contrast inherent in his words.
Charles Greene worked largely for wealthy clients - he once commented that none of his clients needed to take out a loan to build his houses. None of his large jobs were bid, they were strictly t&M. He admitted he could never have built them if he had to bid them first. And he was a man in pursuit of an elusive personal vision of perfection, whose quest for beauty often drowned out the clear directives of his clients. He was determined to give his clients a piece of this personal vision, whether they knew that's what they wanted or not. Its not to hard to see where his words were coming from, viewed in that light.
But Wow, what a legacy of incredible design and craftsmanship he left behind! Despite the impractical nature of his vision upon his clients' budgets, one cannot deny today the awesome impact of the sum total of his creative works.
“Good work costs much more than poor imitation or factory product” – Charles Greene
http://www.bakersfieldremodel.com
Don't know about precut.
Around here there are a lot of panels being built in warehouse / factory settings eliminates any weather concerns for the majority of the framing.
All sorts of builders using panels, from Habitat for Humanity, tract builders on up to some high end custom builders.
The only drawback which I see / observe is that everyone involved must be on exactly the same page and working pretty precisely. If the foundation and subfloor framing is right on dimension and the panels arrive at 2" over/ under size - they can be fixed, but it is a pain.
Stick built - if the foundation is an inch or so over or under - no problem.
Jim
Never underestimate the value of a sharp pencil or good light.
I've priced out factory panelized framing. Most Truss companies around here sell it. The increased cost was just about offset by the decreased labor cost so money wise it was about a wash. To me the only real attraction was faster build times, but hey, I'm not in that big a hurry. I could see it if you were dealing with a bunch of inclement weather.
We just did our first panelized home and it was a good experience. dried in in two weeks. About the same cost and number of quality issues as hiring a subcontract framing crew but less stress and very much faster. I think it will get us from 3 to 4 houses completed per year with less hassle but more net profit. Seems very compatible with green building. They are even getting my energy framing details right (open corners and tee's w/ 2x6 framing 24" OC) The roof over hangs were a disaster, they had never seen a barge rafter and we use 32" roof overhangs with exposed rafter tails. Some stuff they got better than my framer so it all turned out to be a wash, but MUCH faster.They took our Pencil drawings of this custom home and scanned them into CAD in three hours. (they now have software that scans paper drawings into Auto Cad for 50 cents per 24 x 36 page) they then placed all the studs and windows and sent me an approval set by e-mail and on paper with notes of area's where the CAD operator had questions about trim clearances on doors and load points on the foundation. They pre-cut the floor system to about 2" long to allow for some minor tweaking on site. Our block foundation had one 1/2" deviation from the plans on an 8' wall so we got lucky there. The floor system went together in a day and was inspected and sheathed the second day. The walls went up on day three and by day four the trusses were going on the roof and back framing was happening. by the end of the next week the house was dried in with windows set. Almost all the scrap was chipped and turned into I-joists. VERY little trash was left on the job site and the deliveries were staged so that very little ground around the job site was used for lumber piles. The panels were delivered in 8 to 12 foot lengths so there is an extra stud at every point where two panels come together and you can see daylight shining through the tyvek between those studs. They did the coastal framing deal where they nail a strip of OSB from the PT mudsill up to the bottom 12" of the studs and block the edges. I can't see a major difference in "customness" between this and stick framed. I'd just say it's off site stick framed. If it gets me an extra closing every year I can handle that. We have more fun with the trim anyway.------------------"You cannot work hard enough to make up for a sloppy estimate."
Edited 9/18/2007 7:52 pm ET by ShelterNerd
we have a couple counties north of here where the unemployment is 20%. This is farming country. You could start a warehouse type, framing company. It be a way to keep those employed and the labor be cheaper.concrete being out by a inch, they need to be ranoff, We usually fight for a 1/4. inch out is just sloppy craftman ship, has been,.Haga su trabajo de fricken
I've never built any pre-cut homes. But I imagine that trying to find numbered pieces, then assemble them in proper order, would take nearly as long as making a cut list before going to the site, then setting up and cutting in the usual manner.
I'd really like to avoid putting my brother and sister humans on a factory assembly line, doing repetitive work inside, away from mother nature.
But hey, a lot of automotive assembly work is now being done by robots so it probably won't be too long before all skilled work is done by computers and machines. :-(
Just got my new "mcMansion" package from Sri Lanka today! Six 40' shipping containers!
Amazing they could stack all that material in there so tightly (I'll be using the foam peanuts for the attic insulation).
There was also a little tag in the first container that said Abu had packed and inspected the contents.
All the pieces are individually shrink wrapped and each shipping container had a little package of dessicant in it.
It also came with a little manually operated cam press for installing the plates on the trusses.
There is also a book of instructions.....12 pages in all, consisting of 2 pages each for the 6 languages.
Unfortunately, none of the languages are English....but we have a considerable Hispanic population in the area and Pages 7 and 8 are in Spanish.
I'm pretty excited!
Notchman,
My kit did not have any written instructions at all. It was all numbered illustrations.
They were nice enough to send me 2 extra allen wrenches and some elmers glue in a little packet.
I had a question and called customer service and got a nice guy named Bill with a chinese accent ... I was expecting an Indian voice...but he told me that the Indians had started outsourcing their stuff to China now.
This last part is true
So how's that work? You ship them the logs and they return a precut McMansion? Hey, maybe there's a shrink warped foreman and crew in there somewhere too.
Instructions? We don need no stinkin' instructions.
"It also came with a little manually operated cam press for installing the plates on the trusses."
I've never seen anything like that, and would sure like to see a picture if possible.
The quality of our thoughts is bordered on all sides by our facility with language. [J. Michael Straczynski]
What is the drawback to off site construction? Not Modular but Precut.
The one big, at least to me, drawback that exists right now is design.
The one critical thing the Sears houses had was some good design. Not perfect, but pretty darned good--far, far better than the Mchouses the tract builders stamp out like a blight across otherwise innocent pasturelands.
So? So, the people with the big enough budgets, the ones moving enough WIP/product volume, sad to say, are the tract builders.
Well, "we" probably don't need any more un-needed, badly proportioned formal living & dining rooms, even if accurately, and more cheaply knocked out on factory production lines.
What tickles my imagination, though, is a better product. Something with visible real value, like, maybe a 'not so big house.' But, available on your site, delivered from a regional production facility. It's a tantalizing image.
Sadly, what may be needed is a paradigm like that of the big custom & semi-custom cabinet factories. They'd turn out "bread-n-butter" work for the tract builders, but be available (at additional cost) for custom work as it came along.
The one big, at least to me, drawback that exists right now is design.
Captain,
I know ...I am an Architect and I am not proud of the current state of affairs
Listen to Betsy Pettit ...the Architects and Designers need to step up
John B
Where do you proponents of prefabs/precuts get the idea that stick built homes don't make an efficient use of the carpenter's time? It seems to me that if that were the case, the prefab market would've taken over already.
When you look at the overhead involved in buying commercial land and building a large factory, the answers are pretty obvious. Additionally, the building materials have to be transported twice, as opposed to once for stick built.
Limiting the operation to precuts may seem economical but the efficiency gained by cutting a little faster in a factory is again overidden by the added costs previously mentioned.
It seems to me, has seemed for many years, that the answer is in the design, not in the production methods.
I recall building a state funded home for old people, in Pine Bush NY some years ago. What sticks out in my memory is that the architectural firm didn't consider the standard size of materials in their design process.
For example: There were two wings of twelve bedrooms which had interior partitions 12' 2" long. So what? That 2" is two extra pieces of sheet rock on each side of each wall, extra cuts(gotta cut back the 12' sheet to the nearest stud, then cut a another piece to fit into the corner), two dozen extra screws applied and two extra butt joints for the taper to cuss about.
All together, the extra labor was probably about one hour per room.
As I said, it's a state funded housing project, so I suspect that the same design was built in similar sized communities, all over New York State.
You want efficiency, place the responsibility where it will have the greatest effect.
It seems to me, has seemed for many years, that the answer is in the design, not in the production methods.
Hudson, I agree I am looking to share knowledge and learn from those in the field.
We need smart unique and well designed homes that make us smile.
We need smart unique and well designed homes that make us smile.
Having tried my hand at designing, for myself and a few clients, I really appreciate homes which have lots of smiles in them. Part of the smile, IMO, comes from building the home on it's resting place, not in a factory. The atmosphere created by that process is palpable.
I'm sure you're aware of how the Japanese have turned ultra tight lots and small homes into marvels of tranquil living, with a diminutive garden as their central focus. Each of the surrounding rooms have large windows and sliding doors which offer a unique view of the garden. That's an ideal that few Americans have explored, even with the grand possibilities our larger lots allow.
I'd like to see something of that kind, the carefully designed and scaled central garden, encorporated into the next generation of city homes here in America.
As it is, there are mostly McMasions being built after the modest homes of post WWII days are torn down. Few if any of them encorporate any views of a garden. At least, that's been my observation lately in the upscale suburb of Encino, City of Los Angeles. 1200sqft development homes on 6K+sqft lots being torn down and replaced by two story homes of 3,000+sqft.
I wonder how much longer we'll be able to heat and cool such overblown homes? Maybe McMansions will become dinosaurs faster than the small ranches they're now replacing.
Additionally, the building materials have to be transported twice, as opposed to once for stick built.
I think you've oversimplified your answer.
In the traditional scenario, lumber is shipped from the mill to the distributor. Then it is shipped to a retailer. Finally, it is trucked to a building site. (Three shipments total.)
In a pre-cut model, lumber could be shipped directly from the mill to the manufacturing plant. Then, it would be trucked to the site. (Two shipments total.)
If memory serves me well, the big pre-cut operations of the 1920s milled their own product, too. That is, the sawmill and the production facility were at the same location. In that scenario, the materials would only be trucked once.
It seems to me, has seemed for many years, that the answer is in the design, not in the production methods.
I agree with you that design is absolutely critical, and probably more important (in some ways) than the production methods. As I tell my clients, they can hire the best tradesmen in the country and pay them to execute flawless work. But if the design is bad, so will be the final product.
Edited 9/18/2007 3:55 pm ET by Ragnar17
I don't think that precut should replace site built or that everything should get stamped out in a factory by "robots"
I just think there is a place for something like what Huck is doing.
Some of the parts are built off-site where the builder can be more comfortable and better manage waste with all tools at hand. There are mini-warehouses around here where people run cabinet shops.
It does not have to be a mega-operation.
Same people doing work they take pride in...just in better conditions.
If the plumber is at the site doin his thing then the framer can be precutting the next phase or job and getting his ducks in a row.
It would take good plans and a good team.
Captain,
Have you looked at the Aladdin House Catalog 1917?
Simple Homes that USED much of the area under the roof.
Have you looked at the Aladdin House Catalog 1917?
Probably not as much as I ought to--was distracted by Craftsman, then Usonians back when I was really deep into the issue of "better." (Sadly, all I seem to do now is bank lobbies . . . )
The hardest part about offering a "better" product, to me, seems to be in making it "fit" all the possible sites out there.
Drive around "north austin" and a person can see how tract builders slove the problem of "flat" plans in hilly subdivisions. (Answer: Badly) Not uncommon to see a 2x6 for the high slab edge and 4x8 for the low edge, and yards and yards of concrete inbetween until it's full. Dumber than a box of rocks, but, that's what's on the 4 page plan set. And you need a different answer ing the Houston area than in the DFW are than in, pick some place else.
Which is why, of late, I've been thinking about high-density housing. Far, far too much HDH has even less design than the worst of the McHouses out there. What is that 'design' "teaching" people by experience? Can we improve that? Should we? Hmm, what if we could use factory building techniques to create better HDH as a way toward improvign the stand-alone house market? Tantalizing, teasing, tempting, all the emotions in the world (and I'm piddling with granite tile colors instead <grr>).Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
The hardest part about offering a "better" product, to me, seems to be in making it "fit" all the possible sites out there.
Captain,
Every precut house could be unique and "of its place"
it would just be precut or partially assembled ...not cloned
Every precut house could be unique and "of its place"
it would just be precut or partially assembled ...not cloned
Well, yeah, but I was actually thinking of nearly-complete, factory floor-built units, rather than, say, a catalog of RTA components. Now, those parts could "flat pack" after a fashion (after all, most of what we are "buying" in SF is actually mostly empty CF).
I was trying to envision how to carry the business model, from the factory standpoint forward. That would mean having some sort of building jigs to knock off repetitive plans (hopefully of decent design), if only to have the "factory" available for one-off, or semi-custom work.
I will make no attestations of completeness in my thinking on this.Occupational hazard of my occupation not being around (sorry Bubba)
I understand this is the method in New Zealand...
ask AJ what it is all about..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
answer yur phone...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!