Was puttering around my shop just now, and for some reason I tried an experiment. Now, I’ve kept a pretty low profile here, so I figure now’s as good a time as any to bare the brunt of a stupid question… I know what I’ve read about the purpose of the movable hook on the end of a tape but I did the following. I put the tape in tension (hooked the edge) along a straight edge and got a perfect reading… Then I put the tape in compression (pressed against the same end) along the same straight edge and of course now I come up a 32nd short. So… If that was the inside measurement. say along a wall, splains to me please how I’m going to get an accurate reading if I transfer that measurement to a piece of molding let’s say. I suppose you have to just keep track of which “mode” you make your measurements in for repeatability sake, but it sure don’t make no sense to my addled brain… I’m sure this ranks up with Black Diamonds but… in the words of “Dirty Harry”… “hey Man… I gots to know”…
P.S… I just tried this with three different good quality tapes and come up with an “error” of as much as 1/8th.
Replies
I think you just answered your own question.
"My life is my practice"
But...But... ummmm... isn't that... OK, never mind I'll try to stop being German :S
Thanks Andy...
One thing you can do for increased accuracy is not use the hook at all but instead line the 1" mark up on one end and then read the other. This eliminates any inaccuracy due to the hook, so that board you cut will always be dead on (or 1" short, alas).
LOL... yeah I know all about alas. I guess I'm trying to figger out why it would be so hard to make a tape wider than the hook and notch it in such a way that when pushed into an inside measurement it offsets the thickness of the hook to give you the same measurement both ways. I'll move on to something more important...really I will... Thanks for the replies ;)
Paul
Edited 5/1/2004 12:09 pm ET by PaulB
Bend the hook to compensate for the error...
AND WHAT do you know about "THE" diamonds????
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
AND WHAT do you know about "THE" diamonds????
the diamonds are for distancing your framing centers at 19.2" instead of 16" or 24" centers. You get 5 bays with an 8' sheet of plywood.
Really!!??
Where did you learn that?
Do you Have any proof!
Seems like an old wives tale to me.
Mr T
Happiness is a cold wet nose
Life is is never to busy to stop and pet the Doggies!!
as a matter of fact a couple of old wives told it to me
The knowledgeable pros over at the bigger box..
That answer reeks of it...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
"I guess I'm trying to figger out why it would be so hard to make a tape wider than the hook and notch it in such a way that when pushed into an inside measurement it offsets the thickness of the hook to give you the same measurement both ways."
You're hearing this from an absolute rookie here, guys, but isn't that exactly why the hook slides? If hooked to the outside of a board, it SHOULD give the accurate length as the inside of the hook lines up with the end of the tape. Alternatively, if butted up against a wall to get the length of the inside of the perpendicular wall, the hook slides back so that the outside of the hook is lined up with the end of the tape and you've got that measurement. Am I missing something here?
My particular penchant for human error runs at least an 8th--and that nothing I can blame on the tape--so I can't complain about a 32nd.
Well, that is the theory but as I said first of all I tested and got up to 1/8" error (the Stanley being the best with 1/32"), besides which the design of all three name brand tapes I have kicking around here would make the theory impossible in reality... anyhow... back to setting rotor pitch...
Dan, I find if you start your tape on the 10" instead of the 1", less mistakes are made. T R
Edited 5/1/2004 4:14 pm ET by TR
So that explains why all my stuff is 10" too damn short!
Thanks man!!
actually .. cut a column 10" too short once ..... once!
wasn't even using the "cut 10" method .... was trying to be real precise ... worked with a helper .... measured the porch height .... twice ... will say it was 135" ....
Then .... measured down the column ... made the mark .... and checked it.
Both times ... I measured down 125 ... called out "135, right?" ... helper looked and said ... "Yup, 135" .... OK, you sure ... we had 135 ... you .. 135 ...
OK ... cut ... carry over to set ...
We'd planned to cut it so it'd be a tight fit ....
Set her down .... wow? That went in easy, huh?
Looked up .... 10" of airspace!
Had to laugh fto keep from crying ...
Actually ... so damn stupid ... just had to laugh ... alot.
Wouldn't have been half as funny if we didn't have two sets of eyes on the measurement.
You know that flex trim they send with round fiberglass columns ...
Guess at what exact height that went!
Gorilla Glue .... next day ... just a small cut line the whole way around.
Luckily there were 2 columns on each side ... to support a porch roof ...
One alone woulda held the weight ... we had 4 ...
ok ... we had 3.5.
Jeff
Buck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
A few years ago I hired a new guy, and even though he supposedly had five years experience, I told him the old 'measure twice-cut once' manuver. The first day, after he made several wrong cuts, I watched to see what he could be doing wrong. Well, silly me, I guess I didn't explain it right, because he would measure once, make the cut, then measure again. By Friday, I still couldn't get it into his head what he was doing wrong. But bein' the nice guy I am, as I gave him his pay I asked him with an 'avid' interest where he was going to be working next week.
On crews it pays to get everyone together and have them read a piece all at the same time. Amazing the problems that happen when everyone's tapes don't agree.
Once saw a couple of carpenters almost get into a fist fight. One of them had a tape reading something like 3/32" long while the other read short a similar amount. After a couple off the guy thinks that the cut man is screwing with him. Competency gets questioned. Tempers flared. The rest of the crew had to jump in to break them up. Lead carpenter figured it out. At lunch I heard about it. Everyone had a good laugh.
You hit a key point in terms of calibrating tapes. It's so important to get the tapes of the guy calling out measurements and the guy on the cutting table in sync.
I have a tape that I use just for more accurate cabinetry mesurements, I tune it to a board cut on a my tablesaw. Example, set the saw fence for 10" or so, and cut a board with the tablesaw.
Measure the board length with an accurate straight edge. If it's 10", great. If off, loosen the screws and reset the window on the saw's fence so it reads what the accurate staight edge read.
I then change the fence to, say, 9.75" and recut the board. The straight edge should also show 9.75".
I take the tape measure and measure the board. If 9.75", great. If off, I bend the hook on the tape to read 9.75".
I did once see a husband and wife going through a rack of tapes at a home center. "Nope, the end on this one wiggles too...dang, all these tapes are no good!" Wife walked off to look for something else. I quickly explained to the hubby the reason for the loose hook. Wife came back, he gave her the "you know, I think I figured out why these things are loose" story and explained it to her. She gave him the "Honey, you're so dang smart" look. He gave me a nod and walked out of the store with a new tape and a happy wife.
Did work with a guy years ago on a summer job who used whack the rivets that held the hook to the tape with a hammer to tighten the rivet up. He never, ever did understand.
BTW, excellent electrical advice on other threads. Just wanted you to know I appreciate the info you put forth.
I am right handed and all my tapes are left handed. Next tape I buy will be one of the ones from Lee Valley or the other sources that have upright-reading numbers when hooked onto the left edge of the board or panel.
Bend your hook back 1/32". Since your reading on the tension is that much longer than the compression you need to increase the "length" of the tension reading.
An aside is that if you want a good measurement, use slip sticks, folding rules or other tools like this. Tape's are extrememly handy but not precise.
Jon Blakemore
Thanks Jon... the bending was a good idea. I dont use a tape for anything precise, it's more a matter of getting annoyed when something seems so illogical ;) Thanks!
Paul
If you're like the rest of us just give it a few days and you'll bend the daylights out of the end of the tape without trying."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Go ahead..... drop the tape....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming.... WOW!!! What a Ride!
Hey, I been around the block once or twice... The Black Diamonds are for setting the angle of attack on the rotor blades of a Black Chopper...
Hi. I'm Randal, and I'm a tape beater.
I drop them so much, I wonder sometimes if they don't have a personality of their own . . . and it doesn't like mine. Things just leap away from me. But the Stanley MaxSteel ones so far hold up the best. You gotta launch that a good 20+ feet before it'll self destruct."If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man." - Mark Twain
Speaking of tapes, you've seen those industrial grate floors, where the openings in the grates are just about the size of a Lufkin 12 ft tape? I worked in a mine one summer, and was up in the headframe. I dropped my tape, and it never made a sound. You couldn't drop a tape and have it fit through those openings no matter how hard you tried, but I did it. 2000 ft straight down, and it never hit a thing......
MaxSteel are my tape of choice at this time as well - nice balance of size and rigidity
Hi I'm Clay and I'm a tape Buyer.
Fred Meyer In SLC, Ut has fat maxs at 50%off. So for 10$ I just had to buy a couple more.
Just my 1000cents
Get a better tape.
even the "best" tape isn't gonna get better than 1/32" ...
and I doubt that tape would register as close twice in a row.
tapes ain't for precise measure.
JeffBuck Construction, llc Pittsburgh,PA
Artistry in Carpentry
You are right, of course. I use several tapes for layout and find that when I check a layout with a different tape than the one I used originally, I will have my lines off in one direction or the other by a small amount. I actually placed my Fat MAX 35 and 25 alongside of my Lufkin 100 and found them all to be slightly different. At different temperatures, an individual tape could also change a bit. Even individual sections of my Stanley 100ft tape will vary. For instance, if I make two marks between the 40 and 41 ft reference and then place the 90 and 91 foot reference next to the marks, I may be able to detect a difference with the naked eye. I still try to get my measurements on the nose, although the very concept is impossible. My theory is that one should practice what one wishes to achieve. This means that I try to get the best possible result although I know that some error will be introduced anyway. If you practice sloppy measurement and are happy if you are within one eight of an inch on a cut, you will produce results that would be unacceptable to me. Of course, I am a person who owns two laser levels, one laser distance measurer, an eleven foot plate level, about five other miscellaneous leves, a micrometer, two aluminum rulers, and at least eight tapes. Other framers marvel at my work and probably laugh when I am not looking because nobody sees my work once the house is finished. But I am in business. I make a fair living. I love my work. I believe that my work, along with other things, defines me. I do not worry that when a tornado passes by one of my houses will come apart, although they may be hit by flying objects from adjacent houses.