Never worked on a brick home before, so this has my head itching.
I’m looking at a 1930’s home that is brick exterior and needs new windows. I would like to put in vinyl and was wondering if there is a trick to doing this, or do alot of brincks need to be removed and then reinstalled? If so, then I’d probably look into repointing the whole home(not what I’m looking forward to do that.) Pointers from anyone?
Also what about blowing in insulation from the interior plaster wall by removing the based, drilling holes at the bottom. At the ceiling, it is a problem because the wall to ceiling is a 12″ or so radius cove, so crown wont work. I really don’t want to be replastering a hole or two on every stud bay. I know drywall, not a whole lot of experience on plaster.
Replies
If it's solid brick, the outer layer should extend 3 or 4 inches allowing you to install the vinyl windows and screw thru the jambs into blocking or new framing. Pretty straightforward. Vinyl windows can easily rack out of square so get em square before attaching.
Are you sure you want to change the look of the '30s house with white vinyl windows inside?
There are many alternatives that are clad on the outside and wood on the inside that will retain the original look. One of them is tilt pacs that are installed in the original frame making for a much easier install and you can then pack the channel with insulation.
You really need to check to see whether you have structural brick construction (usually 3 wyeths of brick, with the two inner ones being softer) or whether you have frame construction with a brick veneer.
I have the former. There are blocks of wood embedded in the two inner wyeths around each opening. These blocks are used for securing both the windows and the trim. On the inside, the blocks are covered by the plaster, so you need to make sure you know where they are. Sometimes the blocks dry up and get loose or even rot.
Here is some background on an install of pella clad casements in a brick veneer home.
http://quittintime.infopop.cc/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=Gallery&Number=7902&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1
If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask.
I did not use the mounting fins nor the mounting clips on this install. I screwed through the area of the frame that houses the interior screen. When ganging them together I again joined them with screws in the screen channel, being careful to avoid the casement locking mechanism.
Quite awhile ago I installed fibreglas casements using the mounting holes that they provide. The rest of the install went much the same as this one. In all the installs the homowners wished to retain the look of the usual marble sills and plaster returns. On a couple previous installs I chose to remove the corner bead and use the mounting clips to the inside framing. This was in total gut, kitchen remodels. Sizing of the units in all cases is important and often difficult to figure as the brick opening is most time different than the existing interior finish.
Here's a picture of a casement install (interior) utilizing the mounting clips and patching in the plaster opening.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Calvin, good info, I been gettin ready to wrestle that bear for a while...I have some Steel casements that are in a 9 1/2" thick brick/cmu/furred out rocklath/plaster wall...The casements are set into the space between the 3 1/2" brick and the edge of the plaster, with plaster returns and the ceramic sills...
I can't find any windows that are thin enough to keep the sills, and not come out flush with the outside of the brick...Frame needs to be 2 1/2" max. If I do find something I will have to go thru the edges of the window frames into the cmu and then do a nice caulk like you did...(hopefully)
Bud
Check around, you may find some casements that are not much over your max dimension, you might have to push them out a bit or cut into the plaster returns. If you have 9-1/2", you've got tons to make a nice finish.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Hey calvin----or anybody else for that matter, lol
I have 20 plus steel casements to replace in a 64 year old brick Tudor.
A lot of the windows are monsters 58-1/2wx 76h---one arch top 58-1/2 wx 86h.
Problem is I am having no luck finding casements that will work----I have tentatively ruled out vinyl replacements as " unworthy" of this particular house----I am looking for a wood interior with a aluminul or vinyl clad exterior.
Problem is------Anderson will make doublehungs to my exact size( Woodwright Series).
How Heinous would that look---double hungs in a Tudor??????
I know the Casements would be more "period appropriate"----but then the Tudors didn't have Low E, double glazed Argon filled etc.
I will admidt right now---my taste can not be trusted in this matter---------
please---let all the old house afficianados let me know their opinion-----
Stephen
Stephen, if you followed the link to the brick river house I replaced the windows in, you can see that most of the openings were 9 ft wide. Can't remember the height, but if was pretty good sized...........as the tribe runs 9 across the plate in the 3rd.......
We used Pellas in this house...........nother homer...........and they were sized exactly what I spec'd and worked beautifully. Al. clad with interior wood. You'll have to either divide them as we did and mount separately or you can field gang them so you can manuever. Marvin will custom size as would Anderson I imagine.
Email me if you want any specifics. This on your place?
Whoa, just reread your post.......Hi ones. To my knowledge, 6 ft is max hi, but maybe you could build down, build up, bend some brake metal outside, reconfigure the sill and the plaster return up top. Or put a transom lite above if that would fit in, not sure on the tooter look.
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Edited 6/17/2005 8:24 pm ET by calvin
Calvin----as you noticed----the width isn't as much of a problem as the height.
My openings are about 4 inches to tall for available windows.
these ARE for my new place.
My neighbor has done conversion of casement to double hung on his very similar house----but in vinyl. I keep looking at HIS house trying to decide on the double hung thing----but the VINYL aspect on his house keeps jumping out at me and breaking my concentration.
Salesman at the lumber yard( turns out I kind of know him from another lumberyard I used to use which closed------------) anyhow the salesman says he thinks he can get the Anderson rep to actually come out to my house---do the measuring and show me EXACTLY what they can put together for me. I imagine this is because I need a LOT of these windows and they are all so big.
About the Pella windows----I notice that they are being flogged in Home Depot and Lowes now---and in General I avoid any product line available at the Big Boxes. My lumberyard carries BOTH Anderson and Pella----also Jeld-Wen. Pella and Jeld-Wen are about $400 MORE per opening. I imagine Marvin would be even more.
Since time is NOT of the essence ---if I go with Anderson I can get my order in on periodic Truck Load Sales and save about 9% over the warehouse price.
I would like to look into Marvin windows however---as I heard years ago that Marvin actually makes the quality of window that Pella and Anderson WISH they made----LOL-----but I will bet they are priced accordingly.
Stephen
When you check out Marvin, take a close look at their Integrity line. My local rep has said good things about them, price among them. I have no experience in Integrity, but have 15 yo Marvin casements in our home. You have a sizable bill coming up. If you maybe are thinking Pella, go to a Modern Bldrs Supply and check into their offer of Cabella dollars for total sales bucks. I garnered a 500.00 gift cert last december on 3 kitchen sales. Takes a bit of the pain outta it.
On some of the 30's houses here (tudor I guess) the casements are below a row of fixed glass. All are divided lites in the metal frames. You could perhaps do something similar with your sash.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
Tim,
I am in Akron, Ohio.
so far I am in the $1200---$1700 range per opening---and I still haven't found the proper size yet.
I am unable to post pictures here----but If you come to Calvins in august---I can show you some pictures there.( Ya gotta be there on Thursday---cause I am only gonna be there on thursday)
I am kind of hoping for the Anderson Rep to come up with a solution since this is outside of my area of current expertise.
Calvin-------we have a Modern Builders here----but NO FREAKIN WAY will I use them. I am still steamed over the way they treated when I tried to buy a box of coil nails 15 years ago------and even more po'ed over how they treated me RE some rubber roofing at about the same time. I haven't given them a nickel in 15 years-----and I never miss a chance to Tell people in person WHY I won't deal with 'em.
Stephen
I hate to say regional differences but I'm thinking that's the way it is. Here, alot of the same people I bought roofing etc from 15 or more yrs ago are still at the yard. They do good work here. Aledgedly the owner of the whole shelonga lives here as well. I'm not sure when he took over or if he has always owned it, but I'm pleased with the treatment and service here. And please let me know if I can be of any help in figuring this window change.Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
Quittin' Time
beyond heinous
atrocius.
casements only dude.
please.
don't even think about double hungs
sorry to be the style council, but......
aren't you near me in PA ?
do you want my window supplier's name in Allentown that does all of our special stuff like this ?
can you post some pics of in and out ?
have you done any general pricing on this ?
the numbers are going to be startling, to say the least.
don't knock Pella just because they sell their ProLine at the Big Box craphouses.
still a great window, you just buy them direct from the factory stores in peaceful surroundings.
carpenter in transition
I'm with Tim. Just say NO THANK YOU to double hungs on a Tudor. There is a Moorish one near us getting renovated. If I get a chance I'll check what they are doing.On your partner, maybe a different story....
" About the Pella windows----I notice that they are being flogged in Home Depot and Lowes now--"Locally HD had Pella and Lowes has a line of Anderson.So I guess that you can't use Anderson either.
that's a fair point Bill, LOL
Actually---last weekend my wife and I went on tour of some houses in a neighboring town----same style, same vintage as mine----actually 10-15 years older than mine.
fairly pricey neighborhood
I was intrigued to see that MOST of the houses had NOT replaced the original steel casement windows----and the one that had replaced the windows looked pretty bad.
I have 4 leaded glass windows that I was going to keep----but I may keep ALL the steel casements as well----as it apparently does not negatively influence the sales value of the property. In fact---judging by the conversations of the other people on the tour (that I purposely eavesdropped on)---windows are of almost ZERO concern to people interested in these types of homes. they were MUCH more interested in Floors, woodwork, Fireplaces, Kitchens, Gardens, number of Bedrooms etc.
since all but one of the windows operate perfectly----I may go the restoration route---and get a custom wood storm for the huge arch top window.
stephen
Edited 6/24/2005 8:02 am ET by Stephen_Haz
I think that I heard that someone still makes the steel casements for restoration. But I think that they are in milder climates.
Stephen,
Strictly anecdotal from a homeowner, but we found that Marvin casements were actually cheaper because they don't nickle and dime you on the stuff you are going to want like Pella does. So our outswing, al clad, wood inside windows with the upgraded hardware and a screen ended up being a little over half the price of comparable from Pella. Of course this was 5 years ago and that is an eternity in manufacturer years.
Plus the people with Marvin were more knowlegable and gave us a better vibe.
Just got new vinyls (wood/wood, metal clad would have been more than twice as much) for our 1930's stucco. New windows are double hung STDL's with grids in and out to match the original TDL wood double hungs. They are inserts called "block frame, sloped sills".
I didn't trust myself for the install, so they did it. Watched 'em do it; ridiculously easy. They cut/chiseled the channel holding the windows in from the outside, pulled the old ones out, butted the new ones up to the interior slide, installed new exterior trim, and caulked. These inserts are not actually attached to the house at all.
If your brick house has original windows, check this approach out. You don't have to touch drywall/plaster or framing. You only have to prime and paint the new exterior trim.
I don't know if this approach will cause snickers among purists, but the windows were done in a couple of hours and the house is already quieter and cooler.
I just got back from putting an offer on this home and it was excepted. Seems the listing agent made a mistake on the actual size of the lot. They say it's 0.3 acres, but the county and title report say that it 0.8 acres. All the interior trim(casing, jambs, etc.) is faux painted Not bad for a 75 year old home. This will probably be replaced with real hardwood.
Well, here they are. I have had the time to resize then and I'm not sure how detailed they would be if reduced on Irfanview
Here they are resized (I think)
Regarding blowing insulation into the exterior walls....It might be possible to do that from the attic. I've seen old balloon framed homes with steep roofs that gave easy access to the stud cavities.Might not get you all of them, but you never know.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Nice house! Lucky You! Others have written much good stuff about windows...add my vote to the NO DH column. You want to keep as much as possible of the original appearance as you possibly can.
But about the insulation...don't bother. I did it once & it was not cost effective at all...and this was during the 'energy crisis' of the 70's.
There are several threads here about sealing up the possible infiltration and outfiltration areas, starting at the top and working down. Save your $$$ for better windows and max insulation in the attic, where it will help.
Also, don't be in a rush to strip that faux-grained woodwork. (Unless it's really, really ugly.) It might turn out to be a conversation piece...like "Oh, look, sweetheart, under the graining the wood looks funny! Why are the different parts different colors?"
If the faux finish is original to the house, it may be because paint grade wood was used. At least do a test in some inconspicuous spot. That's advice from somebody so eager to do something decorative and outstanding who carefully stripped faux oak grain off blotchy, splintery fir trim. I ended up painting it, of course, but could have saved hours of agony by just painting over the grain. I lived & learned & went on to do MORE dumb stuff, of course...
Working on my own 300-yr old timberframe in CT - I feel your pain! Good luck!
Edited 6/23/2005 10:36 pm ET by Kate Treadhill
Kate,I'm curious about your negative experience with insulation in the walls.What kind of insulation did you put in? How confident are you that it was installed correctly?What area of the country was that in?Thanks.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
In the Catskills, Youngsville, near Monitcello, NY. Above the poison ivy line, cold country in the winter. We cut holes in stud bays & blew cellulose in, in a balloon framed 1906 house. We cut lots of holes, and blew and blew, but did not have thermal imaging or any very hi-tec technique. We thought we did a good job, but when remodelling a couple of years later, discovered on opening a wall that it had bridged on every little protruberance in the wall, and there were many. I don't know if the fact that it was a not-particularly-well-built house was a factor, but it was a typical Amer. Foursquare as commonly seen all over the country. We also put about R45 in the attic, and I think that was a good move.
Since then, I've read the George Nash book (actually, I've almost memorized it), & that's one of the points he makes.
If one were going to be gutting out to the studs anyway, that would be a different story. The spray-in -place stuff looks pretty nice, particularly with energy prices...
It's now the next morning since I started this message, and obviously my brain has been working while I slept. I've refined my thoughts...
On a retrofit, you are working with a house not engineered for the upgrade at hand, e.g. blown in cells. I had walls framed with 2x4's, rough lumber, sheathed with rough boards, lathed w. rough lath, & plastered - picture big goops of plaster keys every few inches in all directions. Now add all the nails that missed their mark amd are still sticking out in there....Now add in the bracing, the electric wires, the plumbing...
Migraine, I believe, has a brick house with plaster walls, so he will have gobs of mortar and gobs of plaster in all those cavities- short of a whole-house x-ray, he's going to encounter those same problems...that's assuming he wants to blow, and not strip out his house...
It's entirely possible that in a different kind of construction, results would be different, but I've only had experience with old houses. That 1906 was my youngest.....
Now relocated to SE CT to my oldest, and last, house. This is the one they are going to carry me out of!
Edited 6/24/2005 10:07 pm ET by Kate Treadhill
Edited 6/25/2005 10:12 am ET by Kate Treadhill
That's interesting. Thanks.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.
Rich - I have a different point of view from Kate. I did a 1920's Dutch Colonial that I owned a while ago. We went in through the plaster inside on the 2nd floor. It was also balloon framed. We pumped it in, fluffed it up for the machine, then closed the walls up, replastered and that was it. That place was Great on heat bills. I wish I had it back now. My father was a big believer in vermiculite as insulation (in the 50's) and later he liked the cellulose. As I've redone his house, I've had to deal with buckets of the old vermiculite that start decending on you when you open the bottom of a bay. Stuff settled down pretty good. I was surprised though that even the cellulose that was poured in (not blown, just fluffed and dumped) packed itself down well. Nails and wires in the walls didn't seem to make much difference - the insulation made it's way past them. It's just a royal mess to work with. Don
I'm beginning to suspect that the thinness of the walls contributed to our problemd...that & operator error...
It's been interesting to hear about other experiences - thanks!
"Rich - I have a different point of view from Kate."Thanks. I wasn't going to allow Kate's one experience to sway me away from blowing cells into a wall cavity. I figure her problem was poor installation, as she also says in her reply to you.There may be a void or two in a dense packed wall cavity, but I doubt there are very many if it is done right.But it is always good to hear about when it doesn't go right.Rich BeckmanAnother day, another tool.