Open riser stairs – tread thickness?
Gene_Davis
| Posted in Construction Techniques on
I know, they are not to code. But we don’t have enforcement here.
In a hardwood like birch, maple, oak, what thickness is working for you when the carriage supports are out at the ends only, and tread span is in the neighborhood of 36 inches?
Replies
Open or with risers?
With risers I would imagine 5/4 stock would be okay, 6/4 to be safe. If open, I'd go with 2x stock (1-1/2").
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.net
See some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Isn't 6/4 = 1 1/2"?? Just had this discussion w/ a friend about nomenclature on dimensions. Thought I knew it.
I know, it's confusinating.
A 1x is 3/4", so....
5/4 = 1"
6/4 = 1-1/4"
Then there's the infamous 2x stock, which is 1-1/2"
So the question is...
What is 8/4? or 12/4?
I think it's a conspiracy to convert to metric or something. --------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Nope..3/4 is 3/4" 4/4 is 1'' , 5/4 is 1.25, 6/4 is 1.5.
What is 8/4 and 12/4?
8 is 2"12 is 3"16 is 4"
Etc.
all the quarters are is 1/4".
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Edited 6/30/2008 3:59 pm ET by Sphere
Then how come when I buy 5/4 it always measures 1"?
I've been gettin screwed out of 1/4 "
Bing
Edited 6/30/2008 8:20 pm ET by Bing187
Cuz in the Rough it WAS 1.25"Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
"Nope..3/4 is 3/4" 4/4 is 1'' , 5/4 is 1.25, 6/4 is 1.5."
That's unil you plane it. Then, 4/4 is about 7/8" S2S, if it's nice stock, 3/4 if it ain't so nice - or if you buy it already planed.
But you knew that.
;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
When I used to get surfaced 2s Sugar pine in 5/4 it was 1.125" consistantly, now the Windsor type stuff is 1" or 1 1/16' at best.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
Sphere, you're kidding me, right? Please tell me you're joking.
How long have you been doing architectural woodwork?
Go to your local lumber yard and ask for a piece of 5/4 stock. Clear pine, oak, poplar... whatever. Don't ask them for something that measures 5/4", ask for "Five Quarter Stock". Then measure it. --------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
I don't buy that way mostly, but I KNOW that 5/4 finished cedar will be 1" give or take..But trust me, 5/4 was an is 1.25 '' give or take in the rough. I've had rough 5/4 up to 1.375 and some wane areas that were scarecly 1.125" .
Generally, I deal with mill specs. Not the homedepot preplaned wood. When I ask for 6/4 Oak, IT BETTER BE at LEAST an 1 1/2 and in the rough, if I need finished at 1 1/2 I buy the next thickness up , most won't saw 7/4 so 8 it is.
I'm almost 48, and been woodworkin since I was 13..I also worked in almost every wood products industry from Sawmill, flooring , and moldings on up to furniture and guitars.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
I think we can safely assume the OP is not going to be buying lumber in the rough and might not even own a 13" thickness plane. Gotta keep it in perspective.--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Here is a term I recall from back when I was in the door biz, and having a subscription to the weekly lumber biz rag, Random Lengths. I was buying 20 to 50 truckloads per month of wood products made from this particular thickness of "shop pine."
And it was a grade only meaningful to those of us in the biz:
5/4 Plump
I'm not kidding.
Dog bones to those who can accurately describe it.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
S3S or R1S?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
That was probably for rails and stiles finished out at 1 1/8".
But thats only bifold type or screens right?Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
That's my thought...
He wasn't going to give away the answer by describing the product.
"5/4 PlumpI'm not kidding.Dog bones to those who can accurately describe it."So when does the dog bones jar get opened?
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
I don't assume anything about Gene, he was in commercial wood/door shops for yrs.
You think I am wrong? You assumed way too much. Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
You're right. I thought Gene was the one who asked about the /4s but it was clueless1.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-breaktime/messages?msg=106429.10
So then, can I assume Gene probably has a thickness planer? :)--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Clewless, not clueless ... without clew (tail of the sail).
and now I'm still confusinated about the dimensions ... sphere and/or others seem to have a difference of opinion about this ... go figure. I was just having a conversation w/ a friend the other day ... he was buying plastic decking that came in like 5/4 or something and I told him that it was 1/4" increments thinking I was right as rain ... but now I'm like waaasss up?
To try to clear up the confusion, rough wood (straight off the saw before planing to finish thickness) is usually specified in "quarters". It is the approximate (but pretty close) thickness of the wood right off the saw and it is this measurement that is used to calculate the number of board feet in any piece of stock, rough or finished. It shrinks a bit (depending on how it's cut) when it dries, and you usually take off between 1/16" and 1/8" per side when you plane it. So wood that came off the saw at 4/4 (about an inch thick) is actually only between 3/4" and 7/8" thick after you plane it smooth.
If you're doing small quantities, you can stop planing each board as soon as both sides (or even only one side, if the other is not showing) smooth out, leaving thicker stock. When you're doing a lot, and you need all your stock to be the same thickness, you keep planing everything until all the stock is smooth on both sides. When you do this, you plane all the boards an amount equal to the amount needed to finish the thinnest/worst board in the lot. In a commercial setting, this means 4/4 is usually planed down to 3/4", since at that thickness, pretty much any board that's any good at all will be fully planed.
Finished lumber (S2S or S4S - surfaced 2 or 4 sides) is usually spec'ed in "inches", as in a "1-by" or a "2-by", based on the thickness of the rough lumber that it came from. Rough lumber is usually spec'ed in "quarters", as in 4/4, 5/4, 6/4, 8/4 or 12/4. Then there's the hybrid stuff, like decking, and some trim stuff, that's specified in "quarters" even tho' it's finished because it's somewhere between "one-bys" or "two-bys". Same rules apply to the width of the board. For example, a 2"X4" actually started out as an 8/4 board about 4" wide that was then planed/cut down to 1-1/2" X 3-1/2".
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Thank You, saved me a boatload of typing and getting Ted's assumptions all ironed out..LOL.
Now, I wish like hell some mills would saw 7/4 and 9/4 so's I could get clean 1.5" and 2" without planing away all day from 8/4 down and 10/4 down.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
I are much less confus ed now. I think. Thanks for 'splainin' it to us/me! Much appreciated!
Clewless, not clueless ... without clew (tail of the sail)
Sorry 'bout that, but I have a good excuse...
Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by itslef but the wrod as a wlohe.
--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at TedsCarpentry.com
Edited 7/2/2008 12:44 am by Ted W.
Absolutely ... unless the one word you read is totally different than the other in meaning ... then the lerters in beteewn make all the differenece in the wrold. :)
My own maple treads are 1". They look great and are will never break, but they do flex. Some people aren't comfortable with that. For clients I have always gone with 1 1/2"
With our code changing to enforce the 4" sphere requirement on open risers, the last set I did were sort of a hybrid. I used 1" tread material with a 2" vertical piece underneath forming a tee. It meets code and really stiffened the tread.
...the last set I did were sort of a hybrid. I used 1" tread material with a 2" vertical piece underneath forming a tee. It meets code and really stiffened the tread...
*******************
I would LOVE to see a picture of this! Or two .. or four. I'm just about to launch into some stairs and this sounds intriguing!
nb
I am going back there next weekend and will try and get some pics.
when you say meets code, am I wrong assuming the 4" sphere problem wioth open risers????Love the idea
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
No, you are right about the 4" sphere. Our local inspectors took it to the code committee for interpretation expecting them to say it only applied to the railings, and were surprised when they came back basically banning open risers.
The idea of teeing them isn't mine, I think I first saw it in a house by architect Richard Enrique. The other solution I've seen is a 1/2" steel bar running across the back of the open rise to cut it in two, but I like the tee more.
I used 1" tread material with a 2" vertical piece underneath forming a tee.
I'm trying to imagine this. A friend of mine who's a finish carpenter says he thinks you may be saying that you run a strip from side to side -- end to end -- the length of the tread on the bottom which is higher than it is wide. It thrusts downward into the open space enough to 'disallow the sphere'. Viewing from the end the tread with this 'vertical piece' would look like a 't' with an offset head ... or .. if it were completely centered on the bottom the tread would look like the top-cross and the vp would look like the 'stem' of the 't'. Is this anything like you mean?
Yes, sorry, my description wasn't very good. A tee probably isn't the best way to describe it.
Your friend is right. The idea is to reduce the space between risers by running a piece from end to end, either at the back sticking up (a sort of partial riser about 2" tall) or near the front, as I did, pointing down. If you located it in the middle of the tread it would have to be deeper, as the tread below does not run that far back.
I considered putting the strip at the back as it is easier to build - you can attach it to the back of the tread, but found having it below the tread at the front seemed closer to feeling like true open risers.
thanks for taking a moment to detail this. I 'see' it clearly now .. looks good!
n
Here are 2 good reasons to put the stiffener/sphere-excluder (sorry, Duane!) on the underside near the front of the tread, instead of sticking up at the back:1) Dirt will tend to collect at the inside corner of the delta formed when you put the excluder at the back.2) The front of the tread gets more loading, so it benefits more from the stiffness than the rear of the tread will.Also, the stiffener/sphere-excluder needs to be held back from the front of the tread, or angled, so as not to interfere with the nosing function of the stair layout.Bill
Good points.
I wonder what Duane did that warranted a code change to stop him from going upstairs in people's houses?
I dunno for shure, but I hate jamming my toenails into risers more than getting caught in the open risers. Long feet is me.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
"We strive for conversion,we get lost in conversation, and wallow in consternation. "Me.
He kept falling through the gap. Boy needs to gain some weight!Bill
I used to occasionally build 36 inch wide open stairs with full 2X12 clear pine, which I was able to buy locally for a fair price. That size is perfect, a really great looking staircase.
I've also built a fair number of them with standard 2X12 doug fir, mortising in the treads the same as any other finished stairs. Although the dimension isn't nearly as impressive as full 2 inch material, analine dye stain brings out several colors in the doug fir which makes it look exceptional warm and appealing.
DF 2X12 doesn't flex at 36".
Edited 6/30/2008 6:22 am by Hudson Valley Carpenter
On open riser stairs, l use two stringers, set in 4" from each edge of the stair tread so there is only a 2' tread span between the stringers.
Looks good and makes for stiffer treads.
Thanks, I'll see how that looks, modeled in Sketchup. We'll do some variations before building.
Went to a job today, finished years ago, but I knew it had a staircase of interest. Pics are attached.
Open riser full runs go up to the second, and down to the walkout lower. Everything in the house is "character grade" birch. The treads are 1-3/4" thick finished, and the stringers are made of multiply glueups of birch plywood. Solid birch boards face the stringers on the hallway glue sides, otherwise you can see the joint if you look in the shadows underneath.
Bottoms of the stringers are faced in 3/4 solid birch, as are the vertical "riser" faces of the stringers. The weight-bearing open side stringers measured 3-5/8" overall, and those against the wall had a thickness of 2-5/8". Balusters, two per tread, were 1-1/8" square.
For your viewing enjoyment, I included a couple shots in the kitchen. Single boards were cut for all top drawer runs so as to continue grain from drawer to adjacent drawer.
View Image
"A stripe is just as real as a dadgummed flower."
Gene Davis 1920-1985
Last one I did was 3" Alder, used the same stock for the stringers as well.
Many , many moons ago though.