Hey Folks –
Doing another bathroom in the next few days in our future rental house and ripped out the old Cast iron tub cause it was shot. Went to see what to replace it and saw enamel on steel for 90, Americast about 200 and cast iron the most expensive. I’m a little reluctant to go for cast iron in this situation (and I’ll need at least one more in an upstairs bathroom.) I know they have been around a while, but ho personal experience here.
Question is how well do the Americast tubs hold up long term? Especially considering the performance of the finish. This will be a rental. Any thoughts would be appreciated as we’ll be getting one early next week.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations – New Construction – Rentals
Replies
Cant give you any longevity reports, but I use the americast tubs on most of my jobs and in my investment houses. I like them. There quiet, light weight, and because of their plastic insulating backing they hold heat better than he cheap steel ones.
They are the tubs I use for price allotments on esitmates.
MSA
You have used them on your investment houses - what period of time have they been in? How many? Do they hold their sheen? What about scratches?
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Sorry, I sell my houses when their done so, no long term data. I can tell you the sheen lived through my helper installing the ceramic tile (he's working in his neatness so there was some mess). He did manage to put a small chip in the tub when he had to pull a 12" piece of tile of the wall. it popped off and fell on the tub, small chip.
Actually noe that I think about it a did install two of them in relatives houses. Its not like I inspect their tubs everytime I visit, but in passing the tubs still look good to me.
The finish is like a modern gel coat on a fiberglass boat.
If you get some yahoo tenant with a scotch brite pad and Ajax, it's all over.
Or a slob who never cleans, you toss them and you want to clean the tub up; cast iron you can have your way with, bring it on right? How are you gonna clean three years of filth off of a fiberglass tub?
They are light though.
Eric
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It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Eric - That was exactly what I was thinking. I'm no fan of the fiberglass units. The weight is not an issue.
This bathroom is going to be done once, I don't want to redo it in a couple years, replacing tile, etc. especially because of a filthy tenant.
Yours is two votes against.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I have used quite a few of these tubs. The only trouble is they do seem to scrarch a little easier than other materials and underneath the coating it's black, so if you get a deep scratch its really obvious.
Kyeser -
Thanks for the input. Somebody told me the color went all the way thru. Sad to see that's not so.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Basically, the Americast tub is a steel tub with a plastic backing for insulation, solid feeling etc.. It will be more durable than a steel tub, as the plastic backing will make it harder to dent. I've used them, and like them, but for rentals, I switched to vikrell. Its solid plastic throughout, so a scratch will not rust.
Chris
cwlo - I've never heard of vikrell. Who makes that and where does it fit in on the cost comparison? Is it strong? The Americast felt pretty solid.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I used one and I wouldn't do it again. They have only one advantage -- they are light. Maybe there is a slight cost advantage too.
Disadvantages compared to cast iron units:
-they scratch and chip easily, especially bad in a tenant situation
-may be warped so water on the ledge won't run off
-need to support them underneath with a bag of mortar so the bottom won't flex and sound hollow
It's better to do it once the right way. Imagine the expense if you have to rip it out of a finished bathroom...
Billy
Edited 2/11/2006 9:44 pm ET by Billy
Billy - Thanks. Your thoughts are much like mine. BTW, I think the price difference was $150-200 to cast iron. In the grand scheme, not a tremendous amount of $$. Heck, I just paid the helper for three days to do the old rip out of an old mud job.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
Hey Don,
After installing the Americast I dropped a screwdriver while installing the shower rod and nicked the gelcoat. (Yeah, I felt real smart about me and the Americast then.) I called Americast and they sent me a vial of touch-up paint for free -- clearly they are set up to handle the chipping issues. Can you imagine what would happen when a renter washes their big dog in the tub, or worse... The color under the gelcoat is black and you can't miss the chipped areas.
Billy
I think it is possible to chip the porcelain on a cast iron tub with a dropped screwdriver also. I always thought the softness of the resin tubs was an asset. I covered the tubs with 4 layers of drop clothes and 1/4" plywood so I did not have to buy another tub for the customer.After I had to refinish 3 bedroom floors because of not enough drop clothes I learned early on to make a big effort to protect everything I could possible damage in the house.
I believe contractors lose money and their reputations because they overlook something basic like protection.
I agree that protection is paramount. Of course the screwdriver hit where I didn't have coverage, as they always do. It was my mistake.
The point is not care during installation, which is important, but the durability after installation. The Americast gelcoat seems to be more prone to chips and scratches than the hard high temperature ceramic coating on cast iron tubs. I'm certainly no expert; it's just my personal observation. Your comments certainly give me a better impression of Americast long term durability.
Billy
Edited 2/12/2006 12:54 am ET by Billy
We do a lot of bath remodels (25 last year) and own rental property too. We put in quite a few Americast tubs but I would never put on in an rental. I always install the $100 steel in a rental. Usually a 15 year tub and easy to remove and change. The Americast, while a good unit and seemingly durable, would not live through a couple of non-caring tennants while the steel will and even if it doesn't you lay out another hundred and you are back in business.
You hit the nail on the head with cast iron. You can buy the less expesive but after shipping it is simply not cost effective for a rental. Not to mention the handling issues while trying to install it. DanT
Guys - This site is great as usual. I now have support for anything I decide to do!
Even DanT's comment about using the steel tubs in rentals fit right in. I'm putting together a pretty decent apt. here and as thrifty as I am I haven't cut too many corners. I'll probably go with cast iron for this one, maybe use the Americast (or even steel - heaven forbid) on the rear upstairs bath where it needs to be hauled half a mile.
Thanks for all the input. If anybody else has any experience, I'll be back and forth all day since we are in the middle of a certified blizzard and I aint going anywhere except out to shovel.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
It's always interesting to hear how things are done differently around the country (or even around the state). I haven't seen a CI tub in over 15 years (except for tear outs). Everything used around here is Gelcoat fiberglass. I find them to be very durable. There are certain brands to stay away from because some are flimsy. We have had very good luck with Aker tubs. They were recently bought by Maax (http://www.maax.com). We used to use Aquaglass but the quality went downhill and I would never touch a Lasco. Somebody mentioned Vikrell earlier. I have used the Sterling Vikrell tub and a couple of showers before for a couple of retrofits. They are a Kohler company. The units seemed to be a very well made. As far as a rental goes, I wouldn't even consider ceramic tile. When we had residential rentals, we had nothing but trouble with ceramic showers and tub surrounds. It seems that nobody is willing to care for anothers property anymore. I would use fiberglass for peace of mind. By the way, if you puchase a tub that has a "soft bottom", a concrete base should cure that.
My 2 cents,
John
J.R. Lazaro Builders, Inc.
Indianapolis, In.
One thing I might mention on the tub front. If we get someone looking to do a nice bath but on a budget I order the American Standard Solar steel tub. Nicer finish, thicker porcelin. We also set ours in a bed of mortar and that really firms them up as well as takes the tinny sound out. Cost is about $170. DanT
the cheap steel tubs really benefit from a thorough coating of great stuff everywhere underneath you can get. Turn it over on a sacrifical surface and foam everything but the bottom which goes on top of a bed of morter.
What is Americast.I was under the impression (don't really know from where) that it was an enameled steel tub that was then coated on the underside with a plastic/foam of some sort.So that it would have the durability of fired on enamel, the regidity of CI (from the foam), but light weight.Reading the responses make me thing that it is something else.
Hey Bill
Here is what American Standard says about their product.
Americast¯.Americast is our pride and joy. We made it from scratch. Why all the fuss? Well, ever thrown around a cast iron sink? Your back would remember it if you had. Americast has the same thickness as cast iron, but half the weight. How? We press the sink or bathtub out of a high-quality alloy and apply a smooth, glossy porcelain finish. Then, we bond it with a structural composite. It's sturdy and sound. Timeless like cast iron. Extra durable. Americast acts as an insulator to keep bath water hot, so you can stay in that warm, cozy bath longer. Through the years, you'll love it like cast iron. Your installer may love it even more.
"smooth, glossy porcelin finish" ???
Okay, that got my attention. Thanks for doing some homework for me. I owe ya a beer. Did you happen to notice if they recommend only liquid cleaners? I'm going to go have a look myself.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
That is what I though it was.Surprised of all of the complaints of chipping.
We press the sink or bathtub out of a high-quality alloy and apply a smooth, glossy porcelain finish.
Does that mean metal? The one I have seen looked like some kind of black plastic resin fiberglass kinda stuff. Certainly were NOT metal.
E[email protected]
It's Never Too Late To Become What You Might Have Been
Yeah that one caught me off gaurd.
All the sinks I have installed & demoed were of a plastic nature
Plumbbill,Have you ever seen a stainless steel bathtub in your travels? I never have, but it would be light, durable, chip-resistant and kind of cool. It would not be inexpensive, but would have the potential to outlast cast iron, and could be insulated so it held the heat longer, like a plastic tub.I just read through the thread, and did not see mention of acrylic tubs. I put a 6' acrylic tub in my rental apartment, and it is doing well after 2.5 years. The white acrylic is about .120" thick before thermoforming, and is backed up by fiberglass and plywood. It is set in mortar. The wear/color layer is a lot thicker than gelcoat, and scratches can be buffed out. Heat is the big bad enemy of long life. No cigarettes left burning on the side of the tub!My vote is for stainless steel in rentals.Bill
"The wear/color layer is a lot thicker than gelcoat,"
Actually it's not. The wear surface is acrylic and is usually around a 32nd thick, the rest is PVC. If you look at a piece of it cut out of a unit you can see it. Acrylic is really quite brittle and if the product is pure acrylic it is difficult to cut, bend or move around without issues so most manufactures use it as a top coat only. DanT
About the acrylic thickness, I got to see the holesaw slug from the overflow hole on the tub I installed, because I cut it myself. The acrylic was a good 2 mm thick, followed by 5-6 mm of choppergun fiberglass. No other stuff, and the color went the full 2 mm thickness. The tub company I went with touts their greater thickness product, so your results may have been with another company's product.Despite the higher quality, the unit cost only $500 in 2003 (6' soaking tub) vs. $1500 for the same shape/size in cast iron. The cast is classier, no doubt. The reason I was cutting my own overflow hole was because it needed to be in a nonstandard location to facilitate missing a TJI with the trap assembly. A bonus is that it is easier to reach from the room when drawing a bath.Bill
I still believe I am correct as I have been told you can't mold thick acrylic because it is so brittle. The color would be the same but if you look close you can see the layer of acrylic on the water side and then the layer of PVC it is attached to. I could be wrong but I went through the plant where they made it and was told the information I am giving you about the thickness and brittleness of acrylic.
Later that same company came out with a 100% acyrylic surround and pulled it in a few month as they couldn't get the product to the client without breakage and struggled when they did to have anyone cut it in cold weather. DanT
Dan,It could be a regional thing. Your profile is blank, but I'm in mellow weather here in California. It never gets really cold here.It may also be that the factory you visited is doing their manufacturing differently than the factory where my tub was manufactured. As I recall the description, they start with 1/8" sheets of solid acrylic. The clerk stressed this as an important quality distinction, and showed me small samples of their sheet stock while touting the advantages over thinner products.These acrylic sheets are then thermoformed over molds using heat lamp arrays and gradual vacuum to pull the sheet into the profile. After slow cooling to equalize stresses, the shell is popped out of the mold and back-sprayed with fiberglass to add strength and stability. No other plastics are used in the construction.Did the factory you toured lead you to believe that every manufacturer uses their exact methodology? That would be surprising, since so many companies prefer to point out the differences that distinguish them from their competition.Bill
My profile isn't blank, just the main page. I am from Ohio. The plant I toured is in Chicago.
No, they really didn't say what anyone else was doing to my recolection but that was 3 years ago. Next time I talk to them I will ask though. DanT
Yes I have seen & installed a few different ss tubs.
Oh man they are ugly though.
Put some in a prison.
Put some in some hospitals with jacuzzi that one looked like a watering trough.
I have a gel coat jetted tub in my basement it gets alot of abuse kids, pets, and other things that shouldn't be in there. Has held up well got scratched I buffed it out now it's more of a flat sheen than gloss I actually prefer that it doesn't show dirt as much that way.
In your opinion, are ss tubs ugly because they are stainless, or ugly because they are poorly designed? Also, do you happen to know if they are megabucks expensive? If their only use is institutional settings, I'm guessing they are.Thanks,
Bill
I have installed them for about 18 years with out a complaint or a call back. I switched from cast iron after taking down a 500 lb tub from the 2nd floor, nobody could crack it with a sledge, and I had a real brute helping me that day.
I would not even think of going back to cast iron.
woodman - You are clearly the minority here, but probably have more experience. Have you gone back to take any out? Have you gone back to do repairs in the area - example new washers or rings in the faucets? How does the gel coat hold up?
You say you hate cast because of weight - but the install is not a problem. SH is 6' wide and tub is about 13' from the back door. I'm going to be running this rental from 500 miles away. No opportunity to see how the inside of the bathroom looks every so often. I'm concerned about the jackazz with the ajax or the one who cleans the tub every six months whether it needs it or not. Good enamel - even on steel - is more forgiving in those situations, no?
Don K.
I guess I am lucky because I have never have had a call back for any bathroom job in 30 years. I tend to keep my customers a very long time also. I certainly never took out a Americast tub that I installed. I understand that people think Americast chips easier than CI and maybe it does. BUT I have taken out many CI tubs with big chips taken out of them, I have never seen an Americast tub that was damaged,and I have been in a couple of thousand homes.Since you have an easy install and money is not the determining factor, or else you would be putting in a steel tub and 3 piece vinyl surround, you can go either way and not make a bad choice.
As far as wear and tear is concerned I do think porcelain will take more punishment in a renter situation. The HO I worked for paid good money for their bathrooms and listened when I tell them to use liquid cleaners on the tubs. Good luck.
I'm not a fan of Americast¯ but opinions vary
here is a KOHLER cast iron villager tub $318.00
Best check the clicker. Mine said it was 328 plus 120.00 shipping (which could be discounted) I'll check with the supply house Mon am. Thanks.
Don K.
EJG Homes Renovations - New Construction - Rentals
I have installed about two dozen of these tubs, including one in my old home( used it for about a year and a half) and one in my current home ( about a year). I give them a big thumbs up. Easy to install and i think they are pretty durable. Never a complaint from a client, nor any problems at home. The ones in my home have been abused by two kids under the age of 5, two adults, and have given my 90 lb. dog a bath in it during the winter. I have put mortar under every one. The $3.00 a bag and 10 more minutes of work are worth it. Makes them pretty solid.
Now my opinion on the Vikreil (spel?). Junk. The tubs, any way. Very thin construction. No matter how much you support the bottom the bounce never goes away. If you stare at them the wrong way they crack. The only nice thing about them is they are deeper. I do like their shower pans and surrounds, though.
When I first ran across Americast years ago I really liked it. Lightweight, clean and less expensive than cast. So, I installed an Americast sink in my kitchen. Very quickly found that you should only use liquid cleaners, no scouring powder. If I banged a pot against it the sink chipped. In just over year it was so chipped I replaced it with a cast sink.
I did the same thing Florida. We never used scouring agents but the chips appeared rather easily.
Ameircast did supply some touch up material but the chips always looked like they were, well, chipped! Actually white caulk did a better job on the chips.
I woudn't buy another Americast product.
blue
These tubs and sinks still sound and feel like fiberglass, are very light, but the finish is durable like on a kitchen stove.
For a rental they are fine, but not as durable. We just replaced one, at slightly more than cast iron price, and it seems like a waste of money. The unit we replaced was chipped at a corner. The tubs make more sense than the sinks since cast iron is sooo heavy.
Despite what the literature says, these things do flex and will crack the finish. Tearing out our chipped unit was interesting since it essenitally had to be destroyed to pry it off the construction adhesive and caulking around the rim. For a tub in a rental I'd be sure and rest it on a bed of mortar for support or the first time 5 drunk college kids pile in the tub and start dancing you'll have problems (been there danced that).
Cheers,
Don
Beer was created so carpenters wouldn't rule the world.
DonK
We don't care for the Americast product. I think it is just enameled steel or fibreglass with a plastic coating on the bottom. Scratches way too easily, costs way too much. I have used both the sinks and the tubs in the past when I worked for another company. Clients were never satisfied. That's my .02c worth.
sully
I still stand by my vote for vikrell in a rental. I set em in mortar and they are nice and solid. While the sides don't have the solid feeling of cast iron or americast, they are solid, and I stood on the side with no flex or any damage. The big wear item on old cast iron tubs in my rentals is near the drain. The faucet will drip, and eventually wear away the porcelain coating. You wouldn't have the same damage from a plastic tub, although an americast would most certainly. A scratch trhough the coating of an americast will also start to rust. Don't forget, most tenants simply don't call for stuff like that.
Chris
A cigarette left on an Americast sink or tub by a stupid tenant leaves an ugly track which is impossible to remove.
I've had one in my home for about 4 years with no problems. I bought it because the specific model fit the existing hole better than anything CI I could find ( it was wider ).
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