You may not remember me. I am building my garage apartment and now I have another concern. I just finished putting on the band joists and nailing them down. I pulled the diagonals to check for square. One measured 36′ 10″ and the other measured 36′ 11 1/8″. The building is 24′ X 28′. Is this going to be a problem when I install the floor joists and subfloor and haunt me clear up to the ridge board?. Forgive all the questions but I have no one that I feel is a credible source around here. Thanks, Randy
Edited 8/5/2002 2:24:42 PM ET by randy
Edited 8/5/2002 2:25:21 PM ET by randy
Replies
It is more easily corrected on the sill. It's not alot but, I think it will haunt you. Fix it especially if you haven't laid the floor joists.
Depending on which wall you rafters rest on , it could be a real pain. you might see it in the soffit too.
But the best thing to do. And, I think too, it is hard to advise without knowing the Plans. because i don't know if your an 1" under or Over the foundation wall But either way You could allways increase your Plate length , by an inch on the both sides. And let it hang over. Split the difference and let your wall hang out A 1/2" on the one side, and let it taper to 0" on the other side. Keeping things Square. You will have to adjust your sheeting maybe too.
You can always pack out the rim joist for the siding. Use some 1/2" TYpine plywood. on the one side. And Use vertical strips of wood or rip a wedge from a 2 x to adjust your starter strip for the siding. I would do the wedges for vinyl starter.
What are you building on concrete or framed walls?
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/5/2002 3:16:54 PM ET by Edgar76b
Edited 8/5/2002 3:19:04 PM ET by Edgar76b
The band joists are on framed walls. I thought I was being careful, but pulling the diagonals was an afterthought after I already had about 200 nails in it. This is usually how I learn things though. I appreciate your help. I better get the reciprocating saw out and start cutting nails. Now that you explained it I can see how it could affect the roof and soffit. Thanks, Randy
Here's a joke for you, An old dutchman told me this once. " I keep cutting it , and cutting it, And it's still to short." cheer up man it could be worse."I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
The more square a building is, the easier it will go together.
The amount you're out isn't a great deal. But I'd at least attempt to fix it now rather than letting it go.
What do chickens think we taste like?
Randy,
If you are using engineered lumber be careful that you protect the banding. I learned the hard way last year when I left some rim joist unprotected for 2 weeks and it swelled up from rain and that took me out of square. I had to replace the rim joist.
Now, when I use rim joist I cut some plastic and staple it down on the top of the joists and drape it over just below the rim joist so it doesn't absorb any water on the deck or running down the wall.
Are band Joists the same as rim joists?
Are your 1st floor walls square?
I guess you took off the roof and you are going up a floor.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
When I snapped the lines on the concrete floor for the walls I was 1/8" out of square and figured that was acceptable. My 2 sons and I built the walls, squared them, and raised them all, plumbed them and everything seemed perfect. My sons think I am anal retentive for being so picky on the framing, but I don't need any surprises later through cumulative error. I added the rim joist yesterday, and like I said earlier, checked the diagonals as an afterthought. For these dimensions the diagonals should be 36' 10 9/16". Unfortunately, mine are 36' 10" and 36' 11 1/8". So the way I see it I am 9/16" out of square. I am using 2X8 rim joists, no engineered products except sheathing for walls and roof and I am sure it will take me at least a month to get things protected from the weather. I work on it in the evenings and on weekends, but this time of year in Oklahoma you can't move very fast. The heat and humidity are oppressive and the mosquitoes around here could rape a turkey flat-footed. Anyway, this is my first attempt at building anything larger than large furniture pieces and I am having a ball. Issues like this keep popping up and I have questions and I appreciate y'alls (Okie slang) help. Thanks, Randy
Have you checked your four walls again for plumb? It sounds like two opposing (diagonal) corners are either leaning toward each other or away, which will give you the over and under diagonal measurements you are getting. You might try a come-a-long or twist a stick in a rope between the longer 36' 11 1/8" diagonals. I'll bet this brings you right into square. This will work best if you haven't sheathed the framing yet and just have temporary bracing. Temporary bracing can very easily be racked if you're not careful. When you nail off the deck it won't move out of square again.
I have the top plate and band joists on. Will it still rack back to square with all those nails in it? I think the fact that it has stood there in this heat and humidity has caused one of the corners to warp some. It looks like a board in the corner i built up has warped at the top end and pulled away from the others. Anyway, I am going to try to rack it back with a come-along. Thanks, Randy
Edited 8/6/2002 7:38:04 AM ET by randy
Randy, you've checked lengths of opposing walls and they're the same? A little off there would make quite a difference in the diagonal.__________________________________________
Remodeling Contractor just outside the Glass City.
http://www.quittintime.com/
I checked the measurements and they were the same. Something must be out of plumb. I will recheck it today when i get off work. Thanks, Randy
If you have the walls sheathed, there isn't anything that you can do, short of removing the sheathing. The main problem that you will have is putting sheathing on the floor. It is possible to resquare the next set of walls or the roof as you frame them. Unless you have very small overhangs the discrepancy will not be noticeable. You are really right on the edge of what would be acceptable and may have to add a few nailers to the sides of your joists to catch the ends of the sheets. At this point it is easier to do this than to fix the frame.
The walls are not sheathed yet. I did put one sheet of sheathing on the corners to help hold them square when i lifted the walls and some small triangles of plywood in each corner to help. I placed the sheathing horizontally because i wanted to sheath it that way. I bet if i had run it vertically, i wouldn't be having this problem. All the sheathing I braced it with is at the bottom of the wall. I think the top of one of my corners has warped and pulled away. The frame has stood out in the weather for a month and it is hot and humid here. Thanks for your help, Randy
If you only have the corners sheathed, pull the nails and rack the walls plumb and so that the second floor is square. You may have to split the difference between the two. We often find that the house grows, gets slightly larger (1/2") as we go from the sills to the attic and have never found a particular reason for this. It is just a steady accumulation of tiny errors. It happens whether we build the frame in a week or two months.
I racked it back to where the diagonals are 5/8" different. Do you think this is close enough or should I keep trying. I checked the plumb on every corner with the 4' level and they are OK. By OK I mean the bubble is within the lines everywhere I check. I hate to sound so inexperienced on this forum, but I don't know any other way to get my point across. I am inexperienced and I do thank everyone for there help when I ask these elementary questions. Thanks Randy
we may have found part of the problem....a 4' level just tells ya what's level within that specific 4'! Works fine for normal framing...but when ya have a problem that needs straightened.......ya gotta find the root.....which as has been said....could be a little of things adding up.
I'd check the walls with a plumb bob for a whole height reading...then you'll know where ya stand. Bigger levels, lazers and such would do the same trick...but a plumb bob and string line are cheap and easy.
If everything else is straight/level and plumb.....a 5/8th difference between the 2 cross diagonals would be fantastic! If that's the case.....let it live where it wants!
As far as those "little things" adding up.....remember what the old time floor guy said......a 64th of an inch off.....over 64 boards...means you are now a full inch screwed! Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......
5/8 difference in the diagonals translates to 5/16 out of square. This will be fine. We tell our new workers to center the bubble between the lines and to rotate the level to check it for plumb but we still are not perfect.
. " I hate to sound so inexperienced on this forum, but I don't know any other way to get my point across. I am inexperienced and I do thank everyone for there help when I ask these elementary questions. "
Don't fret about asking us about elementary questions. It gives us a chance to demonstrate that we actually know something. Even with these questions we will disagree.
yeah About 1/2" half inch not 1 1/8'. What was I thinking. I wouldn't worry about that .I had the impression that the bottom was old work. I would be much more concerned that your walls are not plumb.
"I was born in the country, razed in the city, I'm a natural born shaker from my hips to the ground"
Edited 8/6/2002 10:37:30 AM ET by Edgar76b
Measure it.......rack it......brace it......nail it!
Rack it right......brace it tight......get the rest of the ply on.......it'll stay. Leave as many braces as possible as U frame up.....try a sledge...a come along......spring boards...what ever ya need. It'll move....then nail it tight. Fix it as close to perfect now......1/4" here or there never hurt anyone, though!
Walls are much easier to square and sheath on the deck. leave the cut outs till later if ya want...but try to sheath before standing....helps alot. Jeff.......Sometimes on the toll road of life.....a handful of change is good.......