Just been wondering–what’s with people installing mega-bright exterior lights on their property that are on dusk to dawn. I’m talking about the serious mercury-vapor lamps, the ones that light up everything in a 400-yard diameter.
I just don’t get it–why would you want to light up your place like a Wal-Mart parking lot? Is it to deter thieves? Fear of the dark? I honestly just can’t see the logic behind it. Don’t these things add $ to your electric bill, burning all night every night like that?
Take my road, for example–it’s rural, about three miles outside of town, and one of the beautiful things about living out here is that when the sun goes down, night really falls (whereas in town it never really gets totally dark with all the streetlights). On a moonless night, the milky way is breathtaking. When the moon is up, everything glows in that wonderful lunar blue. And it’s no trick to walk around at night–the moon and stars give enough light to see where you’re going.
So why do half a dozen people on my road install these insanely bright lights and keep them burning all night? Fortunately there aren’t any in my immediate vicinity, although when it’s foggy I can see the glow from the nearest one. These people can’t see the stars–it’s impossible with a light like that. And forget walking around at night–the minute you get in the woods or the shadows you can’t see a damn thing because you’re eyes are adjusted to the artificial light.
Enlighten me, please. . .is there a reason behind this practice? Maybe it wouldn’t irk me so much if I understood the rationale.
Replies
Wouldn't it be more enlightening to ask the neighbors?
Excellence is its own reward!
Guess I'll light on over to the neighbor's and see.
It is the Jone's next door thing. I have a light and you don't. I guess and agree with you.
Ed,
It may be because these are what we refer to as "city folk". They're accustomed to having street lights around and so they think they need 'em out there, too.
I know any number of people who've been raised in town and then build in the country because they think they'll like the solitude of it. But.........once they move in, they're frightened of being "out there" all alone at night. Their minds tell them that there's someone lurking in every shadow waiting to pounce. These folks have watched way too many Hollywood movies and it's warped their psyche. Those of us who were born and raised in the country just find these overactive imaginations both sad and funny. Little do they realize that lighting the place up like that frequently draws the undesirable element. At 3 AM, it lights the way for "activity" while you snore...........and they know it.
We've always had a dawn to dusk at the farm. Gotta. You're doing chores and tending livestock long after it's dark everyday in the winter. And it allows you to peek out the window in the night if you hear something and see if there's livestock out.
The downside........it acts as a guiding light to your place so all the New Year's eve drunks can find their way after they've driven off the road into a snowdrift. Ugh. These are the people who expect you to get up when it's 20 below, get the tractor started, pull 'em out and do it all for nothing. They've spent all their coin at the bar getting elibriated so they can be especially obnoxious while they badger you to get them out. Some years we'd get several on that single night. I always thought we should get set up to take credit cards. <g>
I can definitely see how an all-nighter light is useful on the farm (although if I was sleeping in the farmhouse it would still drive me nuts shining in the bedroom window--I worked on a ranch in Idaho with exactly that situation).
Thing is, most of the folks I'm talking about don't have a farm--and in fact as far as I can tell they're inside watching the tube then off to bed. It's not like they're working outside.
I was in a small Massachussetts town (Royalston) last year and noticed that their street lamps around the common were much more subdued, seemed almost like incadescents or maybe compact florescents. In any case, they provided some light but didn't have that hellish orange or blue glow that you get with MV lights.
My dad grew up in Manhattan and says that when he was a kid (forties and fifties) the city had a much mellower type of streetlamp. Seems to me at some point (maybe in the sixties?) people started installing those mercury vapor lamps everywhere.
"I just don't get it--why would you want to light up your place like a Wal-Mart parking lot?"
It is very, very, very few that do that.
"I'm talking about the serious mercury-vapor lamps, the ones that light up everything in a 400-yard diameter."
That is not what commerical places use. For the last 10-20 years or so the commerical place has gone to great details to not do that. All of there lights shine DOWN.
For two reasons, one is to get the use of all of the light that they are paying for. The other reason is that a number of area now have some sort of "light polution"
But you are right the way that you discribe the cheap MV lamps. They send light in every direction except down and are a PITA.
AFAIK the only reason that people buy them are that they are cheap and readily available.
Now I live on a lake and right on the water front, by my dock, I have a 2 28 watt CFL's with reflectors. They are mounted in a wood, open bottom box, so that the actuall lamps are not sean unless you are right under the fixtures.
Nowever, my new idiot neighbor has on the the MV light up on a pole. Do to the slope of the land it is right at eye level in my house. I had to go and stick up some aluminum foil tape over it to keep it from blinding me.
But people 200-300 ft away are still bothered by it. I figured that it would get fixed as soon as they moved in. But they spent a ton of money on the place and have been here about 4-5 days all summer and then I have never seen them outside on their deck where the light would shine in their eyes.
first of all, 200'-300' is an absolute "gimme" with any decent varmint rifle- the proverbial six inch putt. 200-300 yds wouldn't really be all that sporting either on a fixed, illuminated target of that size.
secondly, to all who have chimed in here, my wife and i are among the lifelong city dwellers who have recently moved to a much more rural locale (not exactly the boonies, but there's more farms than houses). let me tell y'all, it gets friggin' dark out here and that takes some getting used to- especially for the light of my life, pardon the pun. we are slowly but surely getting around to installing some motion detectors and 3-way switches so we can move around the property, particularly between the house and the workshop, or come home after dark, without leaving lights on all night. with time, i expect we'll just become more accustomed to the darkness. (btw- we've only got a few 40w porchlights around the place- i don't get the "klieg light syndrome" either- maybe the new models are in at the studebaker dealer?)
m
Here's a hopefully helpful hint as you set up those motion sensor lights..............
You can use two motion sensors on the same circuit to control the same set of lights or series of 120V lights. This way you can turn on the same set/series of lights when the two motion sensors are actually scanning two completely different fields of view. All you have to do is make certain that both sensors receive current from the same phase. When the second sensor sees you, it closes the circuit to the same phase which is already closed anyway so no problem results.
I nearly always wire these motion sensor circuits using the motion sensors that are entirely separate from the lighting fixtures involved. This way you can place the sensor for the best field of view for your intended purpose.
And, you can do some fancier setups with the aid of a double-pole double-throw relay.....available at Radio Shack, for one. This arrangement doesn't turn on every light on the place at once, but allows them all to be turned on as needed.
For instance, here at the house we have one motion sensor on the front of the house that sees us if we open the front door and/or when we pull in the drive. This sensor is mounted near the ceiling of the front porch. It turns on two post lamps, the porch ceiling light and one flood light fixture along the side of the house which lights the sidewalk going to the back door. However, it doesn't turn on the lights around the back of the house. If you pull in the drive and then walk for the back of the house, you are seen by the 2nd detector when you clear the back corner of the house which turns on the back lights.
Likewise, if you step out the back door the sensor there activates the back lights and once again the side light, but not the front lights. If you walk down the side of the house, the front porch sensor sees you as soon as you clear the corner of the house and turns on those lights at that time.
Again, this type of setup requires that you stay on the same phase as the "middle" floodlight fixture can receive its current from two different sources.
Maybe a dawn to dusk light is in your future. Doesn't sound like you'd be annoying anyone else with it. Perfect arrangement would include a switch in the house would allow you to turn it off once you retire and maybe one in your bedroom too so you could flip in on in the night if you have reason to.
PS. Didn't mean to sound like I was pickin' on anyone who needs light to see where they're going. We all do. :-)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 9/20/2003 8:16:58 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 9/20/2003 8:19:26 PM ET by GOLDHILLER
Take some time and look over this site:
http://www.darksky.org
International Dark Sky Association
"resources" tab has info on types of fixtures, etc, and tips on dealing w/neighbors, and sample ordinances you can pass along to city/county
I'll check that out, thanks. I've definitely heard astronomers moaning about how bad things have gotten.
Have you ever flown on a clear night? You can really see just how lit up parts of the nation are.
I've definitely heard astronomers moaning about how bad things have gotten.
Our observatory is one of the reasons we have a county ordinance limiting outdoor lighting. Another is that people like us extremely dislike the dusk-to-dawn lights. We want to see stars at night in the country and suggest that anybody who wants a streetlight move back into town. When we sold some land it went with deed restriction about unshielded lighting. That was before the county restriction.
The only time I've wanted more light outside was to highlight problem critters and I've found that a good flashlight works fine. Taped to the shotgun if necessary. Unshielded night lighting is a pollutant.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
As an electrician I sometimes get jobs for landscape and security lighting. IMHO most of it is massively overbuilt. Landscaping, at least to my mind, seems to be a case of less being more. One or two truly nice signature features illuminated combined with just enough walkway lighting to define it and moderate porch lighting, just enough to define a welcoming entrance, seems about right in most cases. This makes the total number of fixtures low. This also greatly increases the chances that maintenance will get done.
Too often systems with many fixtures, usually come across as a gaudy extravagance, think county fair, instead of tasteful and dramatic. Usually these overbuilt systems degrade it just a few months to be comedic parodies of taste and good design. I dove by one I installed as the architect drew it, I tried to talk them out of it, a few months later to see that the lights were dirty, half the bulbs were burned out and the signature features, as defined by the focus of the largest floods after the lawn crews attacked the fixtures with weed whackers, were now the trash cans and the neighbors bedroom window. You know the neighbors loved the stage lighting.
Security lighting and utility lighting are also commonly overbuilt, over lamped or just not turned off. It is rare for people to need to read newspapers in the back yard at 2AM. Many people demand 150w flood bulbs in motion detector fixtures. I usually try to talk them into the 75w version. Your trying to deter and detect intruders not cause radiation burns.
Dawn to dusk lights in barnyards make sense, seeing as that I once drove into a small herd of very black cattle at 60 mph I sympathize with wanting to keep track of the livestock, but I prefer the more expensive HPS, and two or more at lower wattage rather than one large one, rather than the MH units that are less efficient. More small units cover a larger area more dimly while still giving enough light to easily spot intruders or wandering animals. Being a dimmer point source it might also attract fewer people seeking unwarranted assistance.
Unless you are only planning to use them one or twice a year, after dark family feeds and touch football, avoid quartz tube type halogen fixtures they are inefficient and unreliable but people insist on installing to be run all the time because the fixtures are cheap. The tubes are short lived, even if you don't touch them, and run so hot that the spring loaded tabs they connect to are often shot in just a few weeks of nightly use. More expensive commercial versions last longer.
"I once drove into a small herd of very black cattle"
Thems would be angus from the sounds of it. Did ya make some hamburger?
Unfortunately, adequate nighttime lighting is no guarantee that this won't happen. Couple of years ago, I peaked a hill on the bike going somewhat substantially over the limit despite my intentions to be law-abiding. <g> There before me stood a large herd of cattle right on the highway. Let's just say that decelerating to a halt was not an option in the allotted space. Saw a small hole about 4' wide, hastily said my prayers and aimed for that. Came shooting thru the other side to the very wide-eyed amazement and open mouths of a line of cars waiting on the other side……..and I must admit……..to my own. Didn't bother to tell DW about it ever. Ssssssshhhhh.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
AAAhhh... She knows now...
Is the check in the mail???
Who ever invented work didn't know how to fish....
"Is the check in the mail???"
Count on it.
But just remember, I've heard how unreliable mail delivery is out your way, so if it doesn't show.............don't go blamin' me. Just "go postal". :-)
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I got lucky. The freshly paved flat-black road blended with the cattle quite nicely. The only tip off was one of the cows was partially facing the car and an eye caught my high beam. The tiny twinkle looked far in the distance but I, completely uncharacteristically, hit the breaks and was still going about 20 when it dawned on me that I was 30' away from a small herd of cattle that had wandered out onto the road to take advantage of the warm road on a cool evening.
I herded the cattle, at least most of them, with my tiny car, I'm afraid I'm not much of a cowboy, back into the fence and tied the fence back, sort of, in place. I couldn't find a far house so I called the sheriffs' office when I got near a phone. Didn't want to get the farmer in trouble but it could have been ugly for anyone else tooling down that road.
More on the lighting. I'm not a big fan of low-voltage lighting. Most are cheaply made and are less reliable than the 120v version. On the other hand the LV models lead for safety and ease of installation. No need to go deep with the lines or install GFI protection.
Couldn't agree more about the run-of-the-mill LV lighting. We all know what California "beach" I'm talking about here.
Against my recommendations, some well-to-do clients of mine had me install quite a number of such around their home. There's wall washing, path lighting, stair lighting and even some of those fixtures in our custom made canisters up in the trees as accent lighting on a garden area. Bulbs burn out in short order requiring an ample supply on hand............and yes, the tranformers are properly sized to the arrays and the wiring lengths are on spec.
The company in question has continually jacked the price of the bulbs to where now each little 10 watt flood bulb is $2.50!!! Holy Moses!! Those economy fixtures don't look so economical anymore.
How does one tactfully say............"I told you so". <G>
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I told you so, Sir?
I'm sorry, but I told you so!
I regret to tell you, SO
Dan
about the serious mercury-vapor lamps
Mercury vapor "security" light, around $25-35 at a big box store.
Tastefull, understated, LV lights, around $150-200--same store.
Having to think (design) LV lights = hard (distracting form watching Fox TV).
Bolting high intensity light to side of house = easy.
Who cares about the nieghbors? Or the hordes of bugs endlessly circling the "security' lighting? Or the anoying buzz as the ballast or the bulb goes out?
Ok, so I'm being a bit "over-the-top" (insensitive clods do that to me--oops, did it again). And I also know that lower amounts of light are much more pleasing at night--there's some physical stress having the eyes adjust from near daylight to complete darkness. Like as not, there's probably just a lack of knowledge (or lack of experience with better). The modern LV systems have a number of options. I happen to like the one I use, where the lights come on for 2 hours at "dusk." And thereafter, only in response to motion. this illuminates the perimeter of the house, and paths & outdoor areas. While also skipping any need for switches while enjoying the outdoors.
Can't say thyat I know exactly why the folks you mention have the lights. But one thing I haven't seen mentioned is security. Thieves like darkness, and don't like light.
Rural homes and shops can be hit more easily, as there are less neighbors and therefore less eyes around to spot them. Lights might not prevent theft altogether, but they do help.
In short, it is a paradoxical truth that tax rates are too high today and tax revenues are too low, and the soundest way to raise the revenues in the long run is to cut the rates now...The purpose of cutting taxes now is not to incur a budget deficit, but to achieve the more prosperous, expanding economy which can bring a budget surplus [John F. Kennedy]
But "the paradoxical truth" is that often those 'security' lights aren't.
They produce so much constrast and glare that it easy for some one to walk around in the shadows and not been seen.
I'm gonna take the opportunity that your mention of security has spawned to suggest driveway alarms to those who may feel in need of such a device.
When my mother found herself alone on the farm, she suddenly felt uncomfortable security-wise. Understood. Not as many eyes or ears around during the day or night. And so, I installed a driveway alarm system for her. Not the battry powered motion sensor type, but a hard-wired device that's buried under the driveway and senses any change in the magnetic field in its vicinity. This sets off a piezzo buzzer on all three floors. No one drives in or out without getting "caught"...........and since there's no visible device, newcomers don't even know they've been had.
Great investment. As per usual, it ain't no fun digging a little trench for a several hundred feet and burying that sensor line in a protective conduit, but I'd do it again in a minute. A couple of the neighbors opted for the battery powered above=board variety and have found them to be a hassle and somewhat unreliable.
I'm sure you could rig this arrangement to turn on lights via the noise from the piezzo buzzer........(edit)........or via the voltage that drives those buzzers.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 9/22/2003 11:12:40 AM ET by GOLDHILLER
Interfacing from the sound of the buzzer seems a little awkward. I think I'd try to come up with some kind of relay arrangement to turn on lights or anything else you might want. Video camera?
Actually, I'd be surprised if there's not some alarm company that already offers a model that will switch on an external device.
Hey, I am an astronomer...and yes, light pollution is a major problem for optical astronomers. I do infrared...LOL. But most certainly the 200" Palomar Observatory just outside San Diego has become limited optically by light pollution. Some nights nice marine layers roll in that hide escondido and temecula to a great extent....
Low Pressure sodium lights of course are readily easy to filter out...but folks don't like their color-less light.
Anyways, here's a little story for ya. When I was a youngin, like 10 or so, new neighbors moved in next to us and put up one of those bright lights. Well, I used to take my little $200 telescope outside and look at the planets, M13, M31, M57, etc. But that damned light was sure a real PIA. So, I took care of it on two different occasions with my bb gun. About 20 pumps or so and blam...dark skies until they'd fix it! LOL Don't tell anyone...what is the statue of limitations on this? Ah, it was all for science anyways.
Agreed. Too Rube Goldberg.
Hey, maybe the makers of The Clapper also make a device called The Buzzer? Roar.
Those piezzo buzzers are 12VDC so a 12VDC relay should work dandy. Radio Shack.....probably $10.
Anyway, the point being for folks visting here and reading this thread that there's other ways to keep tabs on things around the place than to smother the peacefulness of night in the countryside with 5,000 watts of blinding light. And these driveway alarm devices serve the daytime hours as well. If one wanted too, I'm sure you could easily (via that relay) hook the thing up to set off a loud buzzer or the like outside as well. Let 'em know their prescence has been detected. That should give them pause.
The one I installed over at the farm is so sensitive that if the dog, equipped with leather collar and one dog tag walks directly over the device, it trips. My steel-toed shoes or someone with a pocketful of change will trip it if within about 4'. But unlike the motion sensor type, it doesn't trip all night long because there are deer or coons about.
And those battery-powered deals rely on an RF signal to trip the alarm inside the house. All manner of stuff can interfere with actuation or cause false or undesirable trips; low battery, cold battery, heavy fog, deer, wind fluttering a tree within the field of view, snow on the lens, etc. Plus, someone who has sinister intent may well see the device where it's mounted and figure out how to circumvent detection.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Driveway alarms are great - When you're home.
Lights help all the time."Leadership is the initiation and direction of endeavor in the pursuit of consequence. Anything else is criticism from janitors." [Royal Alcott]
Granted Boss, and a good point.
But to what extent depending upon location and other considerations is debatable. For instance, ….nighttime………no one home…….somebody drives in and tucks the vehicle behind a building out of view of any neighbor who might drive by and recognize a strange car. Then they have at it.
We had gasoline stolen 20 years ago from the tank that is situated no more than 75' from the house in plain view and this was done in broad daylight while we were home eating dinner (for those of you who don't know…..dinner is the noon meal on the farm). Inside we were listening to the noon farm report. Didn't even know they were there until we heard the roar of gravel under the wheels as they made their getaway! After that experience, we "interfered". Gasoline tank is now labeled diesel and vice-versa. <G>. Nobody would get very far now if they put much in. Just desserts and all that.
And we're not the only ones who got had this way. Neighbor lost hundreds of gallons that way. Tank was just 50' off the road, but a building blocked the view from the house. Gasoline was also stolen from an underground tank with no available pump. They brought their own and just dropped the hose down into the tank.
I'm thinkin' about that relay to the drive alarm………..hooked to not only lights, but also a tape loop and some outdoor speakers announcing loudly that you have exactly 2 minutes to exit the property or the police will be summoned by an auto-dial system and not to bother cutting the tele-line or power as system has battery back-up. Might want to tell them also that normal response time is 3 minutes. This could be hooked up thru a switch that you turn on when you leave. It would get my attention, I can assure you.
Now this may all sound like " a bit much", but for those who are or have need to be extra cautious, it might be just the ticket. As gasoline prices continue to escalate in general, the temptation grows if they think they might get away with itto help themselves to that or your tools and household belongings.
We seem to get by well at the farm now with that one dawn to dusk light and the drive alarm. Others might need more or feel safe with more.
Oh yea………..then there's the dog. Big dog, big teeth. Very sour disposition if he doesn't know you.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Just re-watched 'The Ref' the other night, and I have to say that the device that sprayed cat pee on the burglar combined with a large Rott named Killer seemed fairly effective, not to mention funny.
Edited to add: the dog's name may have been Cannibal, I forget.
Edited 9/22/2003 4:09:04 PM ET by aimless
I've never seen that flick. Sounds funny.
I'll bear that in mind next time I go lookin' for something to rent on a cold winter's night.
Cat pee. That's the ticket. Never come back again, I'd bet.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
I'm sure you could rig this arrangement to turn on lights via the noise from the piezzo buzzer........(edit)........or via the voltage that drives those buzzers.
If it's the same sensor I buried, the processor has two output choices, 12v. and a dry contact. I use X-10 hardware to transmit the signal through the electric lines 900' up the hill to our house. At the house a receiver switches 120v of whatever you want to turn on. We use a radio. Lights, siren, whatever will work.
These driveway sensors were designed to be used with a standard burglar alarm, hence the two outputs. The elaborate burglar alarm on my shop, where the sensor processor is located, uses the same X-10 hardware. Length of time the radio is on tells us if we have a visitor or if the alarm has been tripped. My back-up system is a sound actuated intercom which will pick up forced entry, or the siren, transmitted to the intercom in the house. Then there's the automatic closing gate, tripped by the driveway sensor. I bought the strongest closer I could find. Gate's down the road from the sensor and requires entry to my shop and knowledge of the system to open. So far unused.
All this was occasioned by two attempts on consecutive nights on my shop. Several years since I buried the sensor and NO false alarms. Last thing I wanted was 3am trips down there to find nothing. We sleep great. Total material cost less than $500. PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!
Wow!
Sounds like you've got all the bases covered. I'll make sure to call before I come. :-)
How's about a system that activates and motorizes a tomato-patch gun or two? <g>
Loaded with rock salt, of course.
I can tell you that Momma sleeps better at night now. And feels more secure during the day as well. Used to be if she was watching TV in the den, people could drive in and out, do what ever they wanted and she'd never know they were there if the dog was inside also. None of that anymore. Took the dog about one day to catch on to what that piezzo meant, too. Now he bolts for the door when it goes off.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Sounds like you've got all the bases covered. I'll make sure to call before I come. :-)
Good plan. I shoot a 3" circle at 130 yds. <G> Just gotta know when there's a target. Oh, I forgot. There was a recent thread about such activities. Never mind.
Used to be if she was watching TV in the den, people could drive in and out, do what ever they wanted and she'd never know they were there if the dog was inside also.
As our place is underground we hear nothing, especially that far away. The two attempts included multiple tries at kicking down a steel door, not to mention the car turning around in a difficult location on a gravel drive. These were previous employees, I followed the oil drips to the trailer. They knew we wouldn't hear anything.
My wife is extremely happy that we no longer have any surprise visitors. We're 1/2 mile off the road. Some have thought us isolated.
I used to run an alarm business. Now, the other stuff is a lot more fun. Ebay is good to get X-10 hardware and the AT&T intercoms. I tell prospects that pretty much anything is possible with an open checkbook and their lawyer's permission. Had to talk one guy out of a roof mounted machine gun.
Great that you got your mom squared away. Mine was fine with a decent alarm and a portable panic button.PAHS Designer/Builder- Bury it!