ok, so I need to rough in an outdoor receptacle into a brick/concrete retaining wall I’m building.
the clients want something like the AI “in-box”, definitely don’t want the bubble cover dealie.
problem is the “In-box” models are all only weather tight on the face, not in the back (i think?). I assume water will find a way into the wall.
Does anyone know of a similar recessed outdoor receptacle that has a weathertight box in the back like the old non- in-use ones? Or has anyone wrapped the back of an in-box in protecto wrap or such? Or do they have a model that is watertight in the back?
thanks!
k
Replies
AFIK, NEC only allows the "plugged in" covers any more, which means using the "bubble" lids.
Your locality may differe, though.
Yeah, I believe you're right about that. "in-use" is the term I hear. (watertight while in use). Not that the stores seem to have noticed- they're selling all the old flip lid ones still.
But the "in-box" by Arlington Industries is a watertight while in use box. It is recessed into the wall so the plug is inside the wall cavity and the lid is flat and flush to the wall. Much sleeker than the bubble ones.
My problem is that the "in-box" isn't watertight in the back, because it's meant to be inside a wall cavity. In my case, it's going to be set in brick, so the back comes into play...
k
like these.
http://www.aifittings.com/whnew73.htm
but does anyone know of a similar one that is waterproofed in the back? Or what would happen if I wrapped it up with peel and stick back there?
k
Edited 11/11/2008 12:45 am ET by KFC
Just buy an outdoor rated box. They are grey, and have little knockout plugs that screw into the openings not being used. Not waterproof, but they satisfy the NEC requirments. If the box is going to be in the brick, why make it airtight?
That's what we do. Works very well and looks good.
so mr bojangles, what do you use on the front of the grey box? it's my understanding (and as the first responder also said) that it has to be a weathertight while in use receptacle.
the only one i've seen for the grey box is the bubble deal, which the clients specifically don't want.
k
I have to be honest with you. The same weatherproof (in use) covers often get recycled from project to project if you know what I mean.
In most cases, not only are they ugly, they are also useless. Most regular duty extension cords won't fit in them because you can't bend the cord tight enough to close the cover properly.
I suppose they are allright for Christmas lights, but that's about it.
I appreciate the honesty. Thanks. I kind of guessed that the bubble covers might be getting replaced (by the clients, unbeknownst to us, of course...) based on the relative shelf space at Laner electric.
I don't even know what the actual code says anyway.
I've got a book by Rex Cauldwell that says (the grey spring-loaded caps) "are no longer code-compliant";
but all my code check notebook says is "Rain-Tight Cover to be used for unattended cords", as if you may not need it if you aren't leaving cords plugged in unattended in the rain.
Anyone know what the actual code says?
k
406.8 Receptacles in Damp or Wet Locations.
(A) Damp Locations. A receptacle installed outdoors in a location protected from the weather or in other damp locations shall have an enclosure for the receptacle that is weatherproof when the receptacle is covered (attachment plug cap not inserted and receptacle covers closed).
An installation suitable for wet locations shall also be considered suitable for damp locations.
A receptacle shall be considered to be in a location protected from the weather where located under roofed open porches, canopies, marquees, and the like, and will not be subjected to a beating rain or water runoff.
(B) Wet Locations.
(1) 15- and 20-Ampere Outdoor Receptacles. 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles installed outdoors in a wet location shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof whether or not the attachment plug cap is inserted.
B) Wet Locations.(1) 15- and 20-Ampere Outdoor Receptacles. 15- and 20-ampere, 125- and 250-volt receptacles installed outdoors in a wet location shall have an enclosure that is weatherproof whether or not the attachment plug cap is inserted.
Well, there you have it. Thanks.
k
now, what would be a)the most likely; and b)the worst case scenario: with a spring lid (no enclosure) outlet (gfi) with a live cord plugged in during a raging rainstorm? What if it was a dedicated circuit?
Or, to put it another way, what is the reason for the code? Is it nuisance (tripped gfi) or safety, or another case of code overkill? Judging from the local supply shops, most installers don't seem to be following the letter of the law.
And again, thanks for pulling the relevant section.
I hate to be cynical but the real reason these kinds of things are in the code is because a manufacturer invented them and then badgered NFPA into including it in the code. You could go look at the 1995 ROP and see who it was in this case. Hubbell is my bet but it is certainly a factory rep. This went along for 2 cycles with an exception for receptacles likely to be used with portable equipment, attended while being used. Then in 2001 a building official in New Jersey said it was "a nightmare" trying to enforce that language and they changed it to all wet location receptacles. One member of CMP 18 (Carl Wall) asked for some kind of safety justification and nobody could come up with it. The change still passed against his objection 10-1.
cynicism is realism by another name...
I'm trying to imagine worst case scenarios, but tripped gfis is all I can come up with. As long as it's a dedicated circuit, that wouldn't be too terrible.
Then again, I don't know much about electrical work...
k
Edited 11/14/2008 10:49 pm ET by KFC
There was also a concern about corrosion of the device but they trumped that in 2008 by requiring corrosion resistant receptacles.
its not a question of airtight, of course, just watertight front and back. and without the bubble front. and legal.
what are you using on the front of your grey box, that's the question-
k
A flat weatherproof cover. It has lids over the receptcle slots and comes with a gasket. Its also grey.
that sounds like the good old snap cover ones? work great but not up to code (i.e not weathertight while a cord is plugged in)?
k
None of them are really watertight, just rain resistant. When someone bumps it and breaks it off it is nothing. These things make sense if you have a cord that is always plugged in like an irrigation controller or a pool pump but just silly for a receptacle that is only used occasionally and usually in good weather.
The best example of this stupidity is Christmas lights. The first string is plugged into a wall receptacle under a cover, the next string of lights is plugged into a cord receptacle in the snow.
You know, I agree with you. I think the old cover versions are better than the bubbles in almost all situations. but that's moot, b/c of code? i wonder what the BI would say. maybe I should call and ask, but I'm afraid to bring it to their attention...
The AI receptacles are pretty well put together, though. It's just that they're made for a weathertight wall of a building, not a freestanding outdoor wall.
k
I got a sample in the mail a month or so ago of an in use cover that expands to accept the plug then retracts to about 1/2" from the wall.
what was the name of the expanding one? Is there a link?
http://www.taymacpromos.com/They will even give you a free one
cool!
Thanks, man. That might have been just the ticket, b/c I could put that over a grey weathertight box, right? why didn't you bust that out in the first post?!!
now I know... That's why I love this site. thanks again.
k
I've been doing electrical work for almost four years professionally now, and I have to say that is the first time I've seen something like that. That's why I like this site too!
That is the advantage of being on the electrical inspector mailing list. They send us all sorts of things to look over.
I'm more curious about this covered while in-use thing. Its amazing some of the details that they pass up in that expensive school that they are making me pay for. Is that in-use mean all outside plugs? If so, the snap cover that I've got shouldn't have passed.
The bubble on a bubble will be open when a cord is plugged in. Those snap covers are fine here, I've got one on my back porch which is exposed, and it passed inspection.
Your over thinking it man, if there is that much water coming in to the outlet box, you've got more problems then just a plug. That whole brick wall will eventually be coming down!
no, no- the bubble is closed when the cord is plugged in. the line runs out through holes in the bottom. that's the whole point.
they leak even when the bubble is closed, but that's a different gripe.
k
update-
tech support at AI suggested silicone on the knockouts and maybe drilling a couple weep hole in the bottom. no guarantees, of course.
off to the site. I'll check back in tonight (ca. time). thanks for all the input!
k
It should be noted that the 2008 code now mandates a corrosion resistant receptacle in wet locations.
Have you considered PVC boxes? I have ones that only have K.O. holes top and bottom, and even these have plastic plugs that have to be removed. Alot more water proof than the metal outdoor boxes.
i ended up using a modified In-Box, which is PVC. It did have eleven (!) knockouts, though. Lots of silicone, and crossed my fingers.
What are the cover options for the pvc boxes you're talking about? I assume you saw that the clients didn't want the bubble covers.
k
Dog bone is for you on this one....
I used this box in a stone veneer wall. I cut the flanges off that the siding is supposed to fit behind. I installed a piece of grace ice guard over the upper half of the wall flange then put the tyvec and felt over that. The stone was set tight to the box. Looked good when finished.
I used this box in a stone veneer wall. I cut the flanges off that the siding is supposed to fit behind. I installed a piece of grace ice guard over the upper half of the wall flange then put the tyvec and felt over that. The stone was set tight to the box. Looked good when finished.
That sounds like my original thought. How has it performed? How long has it been in service, and how wet is the area?
I ended up using marine silicone on all the knockouts on the top, back and sides, leaving the two on the bottom (it was a horizontal model) open as weep holes, and raking out the mortar joint so water would theoretically drain out the face of the wall. We'll see.
k
I have had it installed for about a year. There is a little protection from the soffet overhang about 7' above the box otherwise it sees what the outside wall sees. no issues and still looks as good as when I put it in.
The snap cover is still legal in a damp location and could be used for a "replacement" of one that was legal when it was installed.
Personally I would not use an "in use" cover on a receptacle at my house unless it was going to be left unattended while in use.
They tend to become wasp condos and they are really not that waterproof.
Come and get me copper!
The location is in full exposure to weather.
I know what you're saying that the in-use ones are not as waterproof as advertised.
this is a new receptacle, so I can't claim the update of existing clause.
hmmm...
k
Edited 11/11/2008 10:15 am ET by KFC
They make an inbox for masonry systems which has a protective sleeve which is only open in the back. Couldn't you modify the sleeve slightly and fabricate a watertight back for it.
I assume it is made out of pvc so you might be able to glue on a protective cover in the back and make it serve your purpose.
yeah, you're getting at exactly what I was wondering.
I have one of the stucco/masonry In-Boxes, and its got like nine knockouts on the back. so i'm tempted to try to seal the back somehow (with peel-and stick or something), and make it work. Have you ever tried this? the back will be set into a brick and concrete retaining wall, and water will undoubtedly be seeping through.
I mean, even the grey "weathertight" boxes have three knockouts, but they come with threaded plugs that you silicon in as seals. The "In-Boxes" don't come with plugs, but if i wrap the whole rear end...? Or silicon the heck out of the knockouts?
And you're right, they are pvc aren't they. A little vinyl, a little glue.... I like the way you're thinking here.
hmmm...
k
Edited 11/11/2008 12:57 pm ET by KFC
As others have said, http://www.airfittings.com
Here's one in action....View Image
View Image
I dunno. not much better than the basic bubble front, IMHO. Sticks out what, three or four inches from the wall? The In-Box sits about an inch proud.
k
It retracts back flat to about 1". Nice part is when you place a plug in side it stays nice & dry.
Ah. Sorry for casting aspersions.
The web link didn't work for me, so I didn't look at any specs.
k
Hey,I'm (slowly) putting two and two together-
Was that supposed to be aifittings in the web address, not airfittings? In which case that was some type of In-Box? I didn't see anything like that in my AI catalog. If it was from AI, what model was it, and what kind of box does it have in the back?
thanks,
k
Will have to get back with you this weekend, as the info is 120 miles away. Sorry about the bad link!
no worries. nice photo in the personal info, by the way.
k