My son’s five year old home has a sump pump that works constantly because of high water “table” and it shuts off it’s circuit breaker after getting too hot. Of course, water soon floods the basement. Is there a way to install a second pump at a level higher than the first, that would “backup” the first pump? Does he need a better pump? Appreciate advice (please don’t make me dig another sump hole!)
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Probably both.
The sump pump should not get hot and trip the breaker.
And with that much water a backup would certainly use usefull.
Probably a battery backup system.
Is his house on a lot that slopes in a way that a drainage system could be placed around the perimeter so the excess water could exit his lot without going toward a neighboring house? If the pump runs constantly, was he told about this on the disclosure form when he bought the place or is he just getting a lot of rain? If it's the from high amounts of rain and that's the only time he has this much getting into the crock, he needs to address the pitch of the soil around the house.
Is there a check valve on the pump outlet?
How old is the house? All things considered, adding a sump pump with a more durable motor and a battery backup system isn't as bad as the damage caused by flooding. I would think about using a solar charger for the batteries and get batteries with the longest reserve capacity.
The foundation drainage is good. External drains,gutters and sump go to builder- istalled pipes to pond. The lot slopes gently and drains away from house. House built 2001.
Battery backup is good idea but would not correct problem if pump cuts out (from overheating?)
A battery powered pump is additional to the AC powered one. There are switching systems that keep the DC pump from working when the power is on. For the times when the AC pump quits, the float switch on the DC pump can be set a little higher than the one for the AC pump. This way, the DC pump could always be a backup and the crossover switch would be unecessary. Am I right is assuming that there's not much difference in elevation between the lowest point of the foundation and the high water level of the pond?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I like this solution, son has procrastinated about battery backup because he has a generator - and this will solve both problems. Thank you.
Yes, the pond is probably as you described.
If there's not much difference in elevation, the builder should have done their homework. Water, as we know, finds its own level. Unfortunately, that level is now in your son's basement. Maybe they didn't survey the site before finding the "perfect placement" for the house. The water isn't going uphill and if it was my house, I would talk to the builder. If it's a larger house, it should have more than one sump pump anyway.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
the pump on battery would switch on when told to pump..
give it good batteries and leave it on a trickle charger..Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would favor a packaged unit. Pump, controller/charger, and flood alarm.They test cycle the pump and will alarm if the pump does not run BEFORE IT IS NEEDED. And the charge provides optimum charge levels.I think that all you supply is the battery and hole.For real problem cases you can get dual line power pumps on an alternating controller which give lead/lag control and alarm if one pump fails, but you still have the 2nd one.Then set to trigger above that point the battery backup system to take over due to either dual pump failure or AC power failure.
Edited 4/15/2006 11:53 am by BillHartmann
I picked the economy route and you went the more gooder route...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I would do some investigating and possibly digging. One possibility is that the gutter discharge into the footing drains and fill it up before allowing the excess to drain off.Also if the drains aren't slope correctly they can hold water in them above the slab level.If the lot slopes enough so that the discharge end of the drains are below footing level they should take care of all or almost all of the water. The only where it might not is if there is a spring that opens up under the slab some place. Even that could have been handled by natural drainage if done correctly at the time.Now let me tell you about the problem that I had at my house. Somewhat different conditions, but interesting to show what can happen with drainage.I am on a moderately steep hill. About 12 ft drop from road to the lakeside of the house.Thus the house is multi-level. Garge is at street level with a basement below. !/2 story flight down from the grage basement is the 1st floor, slab on grade. I have heating ducts under the slab. There are also springs in the hillside around here.After a few years I started have problems. Only happen about once every other 2 or 3 years when we would have a week of constant spring rain followed by a heavy rain. Then the ducts would fill about 1/3 full and pumping them out with a small little gain pump did not work. But after 24-36 hours they would be empty.Talking to one of my neighbors that does "basment work" he though that the only fix was a sump pump. But I was not so sure and there no good place to install one.And we would need to dig on the outside anyway to run the drain lines.So I got him to start digging at the corner where the foundation for the garage/basement met the foundation for the house. As we where digging we found a wet spot from a spring and this was dry weather. Kept going and go down to the footing level for the garage and found footing drain that had never been extended out. Just left to dump all of the water at area of the lower level.Extended it out and to the lake and have not had any problems for the last 15-20 years.
Another thing about the drain lines going to the pond- if they can't handle the volume, he'll still have the problem of too much water. A holding tank with a submersible pump would help and shouldn't be too pricey. Gravity feed works, but sometimes that's not enough.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
I didn't read every word of every post, but wouldn't an alternating duplex system work better than a battery back-up.
I read that the pump was heating up & blowin the circut, was the circut the right size for the pump.Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
intution says it's an economy pump that is past it's life...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
Probably.
I try to use duplex systems wherever I can they last so much longer, & have that built in back-up capability.Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
describe yur duplex system...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
2 pumps
control board alternates the pumps usage
One high end float that will kick both on.Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
what happens during a power failure... is the entire system down.. where does the battery backup come into play.. Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I didn't know we were talking about a power failure.
I thought it was about a breaker trippin.Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
any or all... cover the bases...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
tripped breaker in this case is as good or bad as a power failure...
and...
I'm WTB that many times tripped breaker is or has about had it...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
why the control board????
what ever happened to the KISS tecnique???Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I am not sure what there is in the small packaged market.But I do controll system for water distribution systems. Commonly they have 2 equal size pumps, specially for a simple boost pump station to a tower.But it is not uncommon to have intake sturcture pumps and high service sumps that will have several different sizes of pumps and several pumps in each size.Used to get all kinds of crazy specs from the civil engineers. Thinks like run pump 3, but not if pump 2 is runing, but it is ok to run pump3 and 1. And then this kind of stupid stuff for 3 to 5 different stages of pumps.So I broke it down into 3 sizes of pumps. with upto 3 pumps in each size and a total of eight stages.One example system might be 2 small pumps, 2 medium pumps, 2 large pumps.1 all off
2 one small pump
3 one medium pump
4 one medium and one small
5 one large or if not available 2 medium
6 one large and one medium.With in each stage everytime a stage turns off the pumps are alternted so that the next one, if availabole, is called.Available means that it is in auto and has not failed.That is for the alternating mode. You can also put it in fixed mode.For a simple two equal pump system you can either have it in auto alternation so the the first pump comes on a the lower level (lead) and the 2nd on comes on at the higher level (lag) and if the first pump fails it selects the second one.Or you have have it in foward lead/lag where the A pump is always lead and the 2nd one alway lag or reversed lead lag. In that case there is no fall back. If the lead pump fails nothing happens (except an alarm) until the lag condition is reached.
this is terrible... I understood that...
I am not sure what there is in the small packaged market.
mostly home grown... two complete independent systems...
one or two (two preferred - wired in parrallel) quality deep cycle batteries with a battery charger / maintainer hard wired in with a diode block... ya could up scale to an high output automatic charger that is smart enough to know when to cut back to maintain...
A 12v pump (basicly a gorrilla sized bilge pump w/ level sensor) that will cut in on demand on it's own and run off of the 12v side if the water level gets too high (line pump can't handle it) or will cover for the primary pump in the advent of a power failure... be it lights out or a breaker trip... it won't care... the charger maintains the battery(s) in off cycle or regroups the them after being run during power failure mode or help cover the 12v pump's operation during non-power failure mode...
now for the other side of the coin..
nobody mentioned venting for the batteries or check valves and where to put them so the system doesn't accidently act as a recirculator...Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming<!----><!----><!---->
WOW!!! What a Ride!<!----><!---->
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
They make some seriously high capacity sump pumps - I believe a company called "Litte Giant makes them. They can pump a heck of a lot more water than a run-of-the mill pump will. As others have mentioned, dealing with water outside should be the first priority.
Science is not wisdom, it is knowledge.
Wisdom is knowledge tempered with judgement.
It would as long as there is POWER. But not as well afterwards.Don't know which message you replied to, but in one I mentioned if it is really bad then you want both a alternating pumps PLUS BATTERY BACKUP, PLUS STANDBY GENERATOR.
Bill said it all...
is the pump submersiable or an up right..
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Forget the primal scream, just ROAR!!!
I'm betting that the sump crock is small diameter and uses a submersible pump that has a built-in float with only about 4 or 5 inches of travel between turn-on and turn-off. These pumps are great for larger diameter crocks, but with smaller diameter crocks they short-cycle because there isn't enough water in the crock to let them run more than about 30-45 seconds at a time. Then they overheat and either burn out or kick out the breaker.
If you can't find a submersible that has a float with enough travel to let the pump run for a longer time, you may want to install a pedestal pump instead. Then you can set the float for a higher water level to get you a longer pumping time. Be sure you have a check valve installed in the discharge piping, too, to prevent a lot of water draining back into the sump crock after the pump shuts off.
Edited 4/15/2006 5:28 pm by allaround
As others have said:
Two pumps would be good as then there is some redundancy.
A larger sump would help a lot. Many electric motors are only good for XX starts per hour. A small sump makes for lots of starts. A larger sump not only holds more volume but has a higher refill rate so there are a lot less starts per hour.
The current may be overheating because it is rarely submerged in cool water. A "rathole", a small sump within (and below) the current sump would keep it cooled by water much more of the time. Or the current pump may just be fried.
A point I didn't see raised: Battary backup is fine for small flows. For big, continous flows (like this sounds like), you'd need a ton of batteries. For instance, a 50-amp-hour battery x 12 volts is 600 watt hours or 0.6 kwh. That's only 0.75 hp-hour if you drain the battery completely (which isn't good for the battery). 1/3 hp for 2.25 hours or 1 hp for 45 minutes, etc.
Look at the performance curve of the pumps you consider. Versus the head you need (vertical lift plus piping losses). Pick a pump that does the most gpm per amp (or HP) at that discharge pressure. Some pumps can put out a lot of pressure, you might not need that. Many sump pumps only put anything close to their peak flow at pretty low pressures (3-5 feet of head). If you lift is high or your pipes are too small, the pump may be on a part of the performance curve with very low flow.
Pipes are too small if velocities over 5 feet per second. There are 231 cubic inches in a gallon. The rest is simple math.
Dave glad to see ya back.
Where ya been?Do you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
Bill,Partly I've been busy with billable work. Mostly, it has been having a 1-year-old in the house.
David Thomas Overlooking Cook Inlet in Kenai, Alaska
Oh yes the joys of a 1 yr old.
followed by the terrible 2's
Then the tormenting 3's
& the fearsome 4'sDo you look to the government for an entitlement, or to GOD for empowerment. BDW
If he's on city water, get a water-opressure powered backup - the battery backups only last so long.
And if he has that much water to pump, he should be using a larger single pump or 2 separate pumps.
Plan on 180 to 200 for a good quality sump, 150 for the water-pressure powered.
Fighting Ignorance since 1967
It's taking way longer than we thought
Holy mackerel, the pump is overheating? Get a bigger pump and make sure it's the submerged type. The cold water will keep it cool and it should be rated for continuous duty.
Backup is a separate issue, and EACH pump should be able to handle the total flow. That's the whole point of backup.
As mentioned, talk to builder and/or investigate other solutions. Having the pump run continuously may work, but a 1hp or higher pump running all the time...man, that's going to be some electric bill!
DG/Builder
Make sure the pump is not trying to pump the water too low. Set it to pump just below the slab. If the water table is high you will not be able to get it much lower. For a 30'x40' basement, that's 1200 square feet, so 1 inch of water under the floor = 770 gallons.