A customer of mine is going to apply for a building permit as an owner/builder for which he has to sign a thing that says the house is not a rental property or spec house(which it is) and that he will live in it for 12 months afterwards(which he won’t).
I have been hired to manage the project and technically will not be acting as the general contractor because my company is brand new and I am working on submitting my application and taking the exam(which I have taken and passed before for another company) in order to get my own license.
But we would like to get this project going so it will be finished for a fall sale date and I don’t want to turn the project down because it’s the first big project for my new company that will probably lead to other good projects.
My question is what can they do to me or my customer if they find out that he won’t be living there and that it is in fact a spec. house? Obviously we are keeping it under wraps and my customer is saying he will be living there after it’s done. Can we use an excuse near the end that something came up in his life that is making it neccesary for him to sell it?
P.S. I don’t need any responses that question our ability to build a spec. house and sell it for a profit. I’ve read all the threads that have broached that subject before and I don’t need any criticism. Besides, my customer is assuming the financial risk, he knows what he’s getting himself into and I just work there.
Replies
This all depends on the locations, what laws they have, and how willing that they are to enforce them.
This will all come down to civil penalties. And after a couple of years you will probably win.
But in the meantine the house might sit with a restraining order preventing it from being sold. You migth not be able to get any new builing permits. Your contractors license might be withheld.
Nothing that a $50,000 in legal fees and several years won't fix.
OR even if the next door neighbor complains nothing might happen.
To tell you how strange these things can be there was a thread a month or so ago about someone that did OB house and in his county had to pass a test so that he could do his own plumbing. That was about 8 years ago.
He wants to build do it again. The county says that is once in a lifetime deal. Even went to the appeal board. No luck. So now his wife is goiang to take the test and be the plumber.
I would find an attorny in the area that is familar with construction , codes, and zoning and pass it by them.
I have no idea what they could do to you legally. That might depend more on the local laws and/or people.
My concern would be that if you're just starting up, this could get you "blackballed" with the building department and/or city. That could make it more difficult for you down the road.
I don't think you're on the hook at all. You are contracting with someone to build a house. Your contract says he is responsible for the permits and inspections (it says that, right?). You are not signing the document that says it will not be sold, so what can they do to you? Although you are colluding with the owner, and are obviously fairly uncomfortable about it, your legal obligations are created by what you sign, not by what you feel guilty about.
But... why not just get a legit permit for it? Can't the owner get a permit to build a house for sale? Does a spec house *have* to be permitted to the contractor? That doesn't make any sense.
Edit: Frankie's point about your compensation is a very good one.
Edited 4/8/2005 2:42 pm ET by davidmeiland
I think the biggest thing here is the insurance. As an OB, which is how I started in the business, you can just purchase (at least in IL) an additional GL insurance for dwelling under construction, and it costs only few hundred $$$. Now, since the house is a spec, the builder would need commercial GL, and that costs major $$$ - that is if you can even get it.
Look, you are the Project Manager. You are an emplyee and your job is to manage the construction process. Maybe you'll even do some work. What you need to keep in mind is that whatever is done with the property - premeditated or ad hoc - is none of your concern or interest. Stop/ Don't start having conversations with the client regarding the marketability of the property in the immediate future. All conversations which approach that should be in the context of "when it is sold in a year... "
As an employee you should not have any interest in the project beyond your scope of work, and therefore should not suffer or benifit from any future consequence of the property.
However, if your compensation is tied to the sale of the property you are a coconspiritor. Therefore, it would behoove you to seek the advice of an attorney familiar with these matters in your area.
F
You're working for someone who is willing to lie under penalty of perjury?
Why? It will come back to bite you on the. . .
SamT
Oh he'll be living there for that long, if not longer.
Ask Boss Hog.
You really ought to tell us exactly what your relationship will be with this guy.
You might even be wearing two hats. Who knows. You need to get the specifics out, for the advice you might get here to mean anything.
You might be a salaried project manager. If so, you cannot get into any more trouble than the mailroom clerks at Enron did.
Your firm, a separate entity from "you," might be a subcontractor hired to do certain pieces of work on the job. The only trickyness here involves the subjects of payroll taxes, insurance, whether in fact your firm is a true "sub," and that you are really furnishing "employees," which in fact would be managed by "you," acting as his lead carp, yadda, yadda, yadda. But those are issues of taxation and insurance, not liability for a sale in definance of an affadavit.
None of any of this would seem to implicate "you" as an employee, or "your firm," as a subcontractor, from the potential hot water this guy can get into when he tries to flip the property as a spec.
I thought about this whole topic today, when I was making a little road trip with the dog. I just dropped off all the drawings and paperwork for a new set of permits on a custom I'll build this summer and fall for some out of town clients.
In order to pull the permits, I needed to furnish certificates of insurance evidencing coverage for workers comp, disability, and liability, to satisfy the town's building department. They toughened up and started requiring this about 16 months ago. No problemo for me, my insurance guy is right next to town hall, and we'll walk 'em over.
Trouble is, unlike a lot of jurisdictions which have toughened up also, mine didn't think to include an out for the owner/builder. They rub this in everyone's face, even the guy that wants to build his own new garage. Really stupid!
Most sane jurisdictions (like yours, apparently) recognize the right of a property owner to build for himself, and handle it with the type of affadavit your "boss" has had to sign.
My guess is that is what your guy did. He played owner/builder to dodge all the insurance requirements a true GC has to meet, and thus needed to sign the affadavit.
I don't want to rain on your parade, but what do you think will happen when your "boss," having sold the house to a customer that is getting a bank loan, needs to get that same building department that has that affadavit on file, to issue a certificate of occupancy? You might want to hope you are all current with him on money. They might have the power to stop his sale.
Do you need this job, in order to get your license? In what capacity do you need to be employed, or paid, and for how much, or how long?
Tell us more. Tell us everything, otherwise our ability to contribute is limited. Do we have your location in your profile?
I doubt that there will be any issues for you. The owner/GC may get taken to task if he starts to make a habit of it. Just a word of advice. Never take or think of a job as leading to something else, just take the job for what it is. If it leads to another, great. Just don't size down your price or do too many favors in hopes of the next one. Do a good job, on time and the rest will take care of itself.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
good advice, I never go for the carrot. Always look at it as the best thing you can do is hire me for the work you need done. I've got 30 yrs experience and a design background. Some where thru the building process your going need advice, references,etc. thats the bonus you get.
And we have all seen the client that turns into a jerk, and to think that you discounted your price for future work that you don't want anyway
me .. I have no idea of the legalities of it.
But my common sense tells me that murphy's law is gonna come down on him hard the day before I'm supposed to get my last and biggest paycheck.
So ... I'd tell him straight out ... don't care how U live yer life ... don't care which rules U wanna bend ... as long as I'm not in the middle and not affected ... I'll sleep OK at nite.
And I sleep real good knowing I've been paid fairly for an honest days work ... so ... U, Mr Customer ... are going to not only paid in full and up front for each materials delivery before it's delivered ... U are also gonna be paying me in full and up front.
I'm not holding back anything. There's no traditional "final 10% holdback" paid after the final customer walk thru and approval. We're gonna charge weekly .. and I'm going to always be one week ahead of U, as far as payments go.
This way ... when the Fad's come to cuff U and put U in Martha's old room ... I'll already be paid for that week ... and I'll work till Thurs and use Fri to clean up and pack up. No harm no foul.
Put yourself above this customer ... they've already shown their true nature. I've said before ... I'll work with the devil himself ... as long as I know what I'm getting into and cover myself first. The bigger the sleaze ... the bigger my contract and down payment.
Jeff
Buck Construction
Artistry in Carpentry
Pgh, PA
Contracting laws are controlled state by state. Heck for all I know, you live in China...
I have a NC GC license in NC and each quarter the state GC Board sends out a newsletter with updated laws, other news, and a partial but long list of individuals and companies who are being prosecuted for doing what your (future?) employer is planning to do - and a myriad of other offences. Looking over the list I see the word "Injunction" used a lot - whatever that means. I think it is basically a stop work order.
As his employee, I doubt that you would be held responsible though, unless you were benefiting directly from the sale, like from a commission.
I'd be very careful about the details of your evolvement though, as this could damage your chance for getting a GC license (if that is what your planning on doing)
Evidently the jurisdiction allows for owner-builders. This guy is trying to cheat the system.
If he is willing to cheat the system he is likely willing to cheat you. Get your money up front.
I personally avoid such situations. Most of these guys are skinflints who are looking to cut corners any way they can. It makes for a sloppy, shoddy and tense job. Not to mention that if you, or anyone else, gets hurt on this job everyone is going to be hip deep in lawyers.
Around here a owner-builder discovered to be a builder-speculator goes on the black list, a list shared with all surrounding jurisdictions, fails to get a certificate of occupancy which means the house has to remain empty and, sometimes, the utilities won't hook up.
The lack of a CO means the house remains idle for some time. Saw one empty for three years. The place was broken into repeatedly and deteriorated to the point that it essentially has to be renovated. That the work was originally poorly done and the inspectors had it out for this place, feeling cheated and suspecting poor workmanship, did not make the renovation go swimmingly.
After a year of wrangling he tried to sell the house he was living in and move into the one he built. It would have allowed him to pay off the loans and would make him an 'honest' owner-builder. No dice. The AHJ had already refused to issue the CO. They demanded he get legitimate contractors to sign off for every stage of his work. Few contractors want to take on this sort of responsibility. At least not with large sums of money thrown in. To make things worse the place had been abandoned for over a year and the utilities refused to hook up.
The guy who tried to screw the system had the banks after him. The loans became millstones around his neck because he was unable to sell the property. When he did everyone knew he was hurting and could smell the blood in the water and his desperation. He only got a fraction of what he asked for. The man got seriously burned.
Evidently he had done this several times before and had gotten away with it and made good money. This one was a bitter pill. I suspect he lost more on this one than he made on all the others combined. The local authorities, suppliers and bankers had no mercy and little sympathy as certificates were denied, sales were stopped, loans came due and payments demanded.
We, the electricians, because of a wise and savvy boss, got paid in full on time and were working under our own permit. Some of the other contractors, who were operating under the owner-builders signature and on the side, got screwed. Some suspect the fire in the detached garage, something like $10,000 in damage but uninsured, may have had something to do with this. A few carpenters were out a lot of money and threats were heard. Then again vagrants and local kids were also in the area. I don't think the arson investigator had his heart in this one.
Of course had anyone gotten seriously injured on this job, thankfully none did, it would have gotten ugly.
Every month or two someone who finds out I'm an electrician asks me about wiring a house on the side. Most claim to be owner-builders. Some actually are. I avoid these situations.
These situations are, in the words of Tom Waits; 'An invitation to the blues'. Not too bad a deal if you are frequently bored and feel life isn't complicated enough. Your call.
Where I live the State regulates plumbing and wiring. Here the requirement is that plumbing and wiring have to be done by licensed contractors if it is to be rented or sold. If it is to be owner occupied then you can do your own wiring and plumbing. All inspections are the same either way.
Here it wouldn't be worth it to build a spec and claim it isn't just to save a bit on plumbing and wiring.
Do you even know what your laws actually require? You sound kinda vague.
I'm thankful for the loyal opposition! It's hard to learn much from those who simply agree with you.
What state/locality are you in? That affects the answer/outcome.
-c
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Christi,
Are you going to be in KC?
SamT
Sorry, Sam, I'm confused......Kansas City? I know about the Ohio gig.....is this something else?
-C
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
From: "Jenny Claflin" <[email protected]>To: "Sam Tyler" <[email protected]>CC: Subject: Just TWO Weeks until UBuildIt visits Kansas City!!Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2005 12:03:13 -0800
???????
SamT<!---->
<!----><!----><!----><!---->
Oh! Doh! No, I'm not going to be there. The remote meetings, I don't usually do. However, if you come to Seattle to do a Discovery Day, I'm the one that runs you through the Franchise Support (office buildout,sales, hiring, construction consulting, operations, profitability, etc) and the Marketing.
In Kansas City, you will meet our VP of Franchise Development and the Franchise Development Director. Craig and Ted are great folks!
The Franchise Development Team is the other side of the house. I handle your "UBuildIt life" after the awarding of the franchise.
Potential franchisees that are really getting serious come up here to sniff us out. If you are headed up here, let me know.......I'll buy ya dinner!
Email me is you are serious about heading to KC, I'll make sure Craig and Ted treat ya good! ;)
-c
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
Christi,
I'm seriously wishing.
On the other hand, I'm seriously doubtful.
SamT
Are you looking to set up a francise in the KC area?I think that there are 3 competitors here now.
We're having a seminar there for people who want more info on getting an office. There's folks coming in from all over that region. KC would be great for an office for us, but we picked KC because of it's central location.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
I agree with 4lorn
If he is willing to cheat the system... he will probably cheat you.
IF I did the job (and that is a BIG if)... I would be paid in advance. I would be on an employee basis... and he is deducting and reporting taxes... paying the Work Comp... unemployment... whole sh-bang to leave no doubt of the employment relationship. Again... this is IF I was to take the job.
When I hear things like "we can get around that"... I wonder how long it will be before the person tries to "get around" paying me. I just don't trust it.
Dude. Laws are laws. Whether you agree with 'em or not is not the issue. Basically, you're asking for a definition of how close you can come to breaking the law without getting into trouble.
You have prior knowledge. You are calculating your actions aforethought. And you're messing with something that seems trivial... until you're found out.
Do something else with your time.
No, wait a minute. Go right ahead and do your little scheme. Then when you get nailed (pun intended) that'll mean more jobs and tools for sale on e-Bay for the rest of us!
Only an atty familiar with the local law can advise you accurately on this.
my point to you is this - maybe3 it's been made already - you are dealing with a client who is willing to sign a document that he knows is a lie right up front. he is willing to defraud the local authorities. what makes you thionk he will be any more unwilling to defraud you or lie to you?
a PERSON WHO PROCVES THEMSELVES TO BE DECIETFULL SELDOM DEVIATES FROM THAT PATH WHEN THEY BELIEVE THAT IT BENEFITS THEM.
Welcome to the
Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime.
where ...
Excellence is its own reward!
I don't know if there is anything that "they" could do to you, but I think any problem would come down on the OB for his false statements.
I think it is telling that most of the replies have addressed what the OB might do to you, given the fact that he is willing to bend the truth.
It may be that he views this regulation as an unwarranted intrusion on his freedom, benefitting nobody except a bunch of meddlesome bureaucrats and that he is willing to accept the consequences of being caught. I can sympathize with this viewpoint and have done the same myself in the past, though I would never involve a customer or a subcontractor in anything like that.
The real question for you is how is he going to treat you? How has he treated you in the past? This is probably much more revealing that any speculation that we might have. It is something that you should consider very carefully before you continue with a greater involvement. Possibly that is a reason that you posed the question to us.
Guess ol' Dogfish ain't listenin.
Most everything addressed to him is marked as "unread."
Let's all wish him the best.
Hit and run query?orhe logged in to read as a guest?or he's busy
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
dogfish... you're just starting out in business... the child is the father of the man..
if this is how you start, how will you wind up ?..
you are known by the company you keep.. this guy is a sleeze.. he skirts the boundaries of legality.. he is willing to cross those boundaries to build a spec house.. a spec house involves risk..
risk should have a reward..
you , yourself , can get more respect and more reward by going to work for McDonalds..or some other minimum wage job..
don't start your career by working for a sleeze....
in this business, your word becomes your bond.. how much will your bonds bring ?
Mike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You make a good point.A point not pressed is that people associate a person with the situation they see them in. Inspectors especially, because so much of an inspection is implicit in their judgment of the workman and his standards, tend to rapidly form opinions that remain durable and are dependent on the situation a worker is seen in. An inspector doesn't actually have time to individually check every detail. They look for signs of what sort of worker they are dealing with and graduate their attention to detail based on what they see. If they associate your face with shoddy workmanship or a bad situation, even if it is not your doing or fault, this will tend to stick. The same goes for other workers, contractors, suppliers and the guy attempting to sidestep the law himself. Another reason to think hard before getting involved. But, as always, it is your call to make.
Obviously, your jurisdiction has its own laws, so this is generic. But where I am, we are in the process of developing new penalties for owners and builders because the problem of people ignoring the laws has become so widespread that it's out of control. People have figured out that it's cheaper to work without a permit than lose the time, and pay the money, to get the permit in the first place.
Our new laws will hold both the builder and owner jointly and severally liable for all penalties, plus include a permit ban for builders that increases with multiple violations. The fines for violations have gone from trivial ($250 to $1000) to substantial ($10,000 to $100,000). It's not a revenue raiser, but the only way to stop some of the egregious conduct that is happening daily.
Too many contractors will be more than happy to ignore permitting if the HO doesn't mind, and will even encourgage the HO to ignore it to avoid the delays and hassles. The hope is that no one will catch them because there is so much construction happening that resources are spread too thin. We've had 3 illegal demos in the past month, and the HOs point to the contractors, and the contractors claim they didn't know they needed a permit. Then the HOs cry about how they have no homes, pay their fine and move forward without delay. At $100,000 a pop, maybe they will think twice before doing this. Then again, around here, maybe not.
SHG
Changed your Handle hu? :-)
I don't think he is listening to us - didn't' get the answer he wanted...
I'm always legal, but all I ask is that my permits be processed in a week or 2. After 3 the fee I have to pay starts being incrementally decreased. :-) Matt
only took me 5 years to figure out how to change it, which is good since my dw was getting pissed about me staying up every night trying to figure it out.
2 weeks for a permit? Not around here. 6 months maybe. We have some serious issues with the quality of our building inspectors, on top of everything else. Nobody wants the job; they are part time and can never seem to find the time to keep current on the applications. it's a frigging mess. on top of that, nobody can afford to live around here for what they get paid.
and I don't want to get started on the nature of the applications from the new people buying houses around here. everyone wants to put up their 10,000 square foot McMansion with the double height entry and palladian windows on a two acre parcel, cut down all the trees, plus the swimming pool, tennis court, 27 car garage, estate gated entry and fountain with the little boy peeing. Cause that's how "rich" people are supposed to live.
but, going back to the original point, respected contractors and builders go through far more quickly than others. If we know they are responsible, honest and will work with us, they get more favorable consideration. On the other hand, if we know they are scum or trash, their permits can take a long, long time, and they can be sure that we'll be watching them very closely, with a stop work order in hand. Just for fun.
SHG
Dogfish wrote in his initial post #1: "...and I don't need any criticism"
and that made my eyebrows go up, so I passed on by... and stopped back in later.
Read how the thread was going and thought: Hmmm...What SAMT and Piffin and Mike Smith all said!
And you wrote: "I don't think he is listening to us"
With which, I gotta agree. Seems Dogfish probably didn't get the "go ahead and do it" he was basically asking for (and nothing but) to begin with.
What I've come to admire about the folks on this forum is that not only do you pros know your business - but the overwhelming majority of you are truly ethical in your dealings, and it shows in your posts to threads like this and many others before this one.
And that just downright makes me respect y'all even more.
(Not that any of ya need to hear that from me... but I just felt like saying it out loud.)
Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
I GUESS I SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISED THAT YOU HAD TO RETURN WITH YET ANOTHER ARROGANT DIG AT ME. YOU MADE A CRITICAL ERROR IN EXTRACTING A PORTION OF A QUOTE FROM MY POST ----- YOU TOOK IT OUT OF CONTEXT!
I DIDN'T WANT TO RECEIVE REPLIES ABOUT SPEC BUILDING, I'VE READ THEM HERE BEFORE AND DIDN'T WANT TO HEAR THE SAME REPLIES REPEATED AGAIN. SOMETIMES Y'ALL HAVE A KNACK FOR WANDERING OFF SUBJECT. MAYBE YOU HAVE TIME TO READ ALL THE OFF TOPIC REPLIES TO YOUR POSTS BUT I DON'T. OR MAYBE YOUR NOT A POSTER JUST A REPLIER. BY THIS I MEAN MAYBE YOUR THE KIND OF PERSON WHO ONLY HAS ANSWERS AND NEVER ANY QUESTIONS, IF THIS IS THE CASE YOU MIGHT AS WELL RETIRE FROM THIS GAME CALLED LIFE BECAUSE YOU'VE WON! AGAIN I WOULDN'T EVEN KNOW THAT FOR SURE SINCE I DON'T HAVE TIME TO READ ALL POSTS. BUT I WON'T PASS JUDGEMENT; HOW ABOUT YOU?
OOPS -- TOO LATE!
Edited 4/10/2005 6:47 pm ET by dogfish
Hey Dogfish... it wasn't Dirishinme who wrote post #41...it was me...posting to him. So...if ya want me to reply to what you wrote, lemme know??? (I'm ready....but having too much fun hijacking your thread with golf talk, since you revealed your "hot button" about stuff like that! LOL!)Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
I don't golf, but this thread looks like it's getting to be time to put the balls in the cup
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Go ahead and respond if it will make you feel better. I'm listening.
With which, I gotta agree. Seems Dogfish probably didn't get the "go ahead and do it" he was basically asking for (and nothing but) to begin with.
You presume too much!
Maybe you and dershinme are one in the same, you sure do sound alike.
And golf on television? Now I know y'all need to get a life.
Ok young pup...I'll write here essentially what I emailed ya directly off the board...but I'm not sure you've read the email. In fact, I realize that PERHAPS the electrons of your last post...and my email...crossed in time. I don't know. I truly don't. So I'll not "presume" you read it or even got it.
here goes:
It seems to me from reading the whole thread from the beginning, that folks who replied to your original post picked up on a couple of "warning flags" or put another way: issue(s) of concern. Same as I did.
Folks here, being of a giving and caring nature, and discerning a POTENTIAL for you to come into legal or contractual or professional harm's way, then began to post about those concerns.
But you'd taken off to spend time with family and nobody knew it and posts went unresponded/unread. No harm nor foul there, in and of itself. (That's a GOOD thing for a person to do: spend time with one's family.)
But ya sure came back roaring like a lion when you did return. And regressed to personal attacks. That's regrettable and counterproductive.
Sorry my attempt to insert some humor by doing the little golf hijack thing (playing upon your earlier comment about threads meandering and all) didn't make ya smile and toss it back at me...but instead made you more PO'd. My mistake. Hard to read personalities over the web sometimes, y'know?
So anyway: I hope the joy your family gives you, helps to reestablish your equilibrium and rekindle your sense of humor. And perhaps finding that ...that you can look back at the original responses from a different point of view and realize folks really were only trying to look out for, and HELP you.
Anyway - good luck with your license, and with the spec house!
Don't listen to any word I type...I've been nowhere...know nothing...and don't even got a life! ;-)
Thanks and sorry for the goof ups.
A few of the things some of you said that I responded to I found to be offensive. All I'm asking is for no assumptions to be made and be careful how you word it because loving, caring people that you are, you can sound awfully harsh sometimes kind of like many of our dads I'm sure.
By the way, I do have a sense of humor but i guess nobody caught my reference to golf being the most boring, drooling, rather step on a rusty nail because I might at least get a good looking nurse at the hospital sport there is to watch on t.v. Like to play the game occasionally, don't like to watch it.
If you're gonna' be dumb, you better be tough. Ancient Proverb from 1987
Yeah...when I was ONLY 33...I used to think watching golf on TV was akin to watching grass grow... ;-)
Loved yur tagline by the way.
Don't be a stranger now, y'hear!
ClaraOf all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
Well, now, that's so much better!
I reckoned you were just off on a trip but that was no reason for snarling and biting at everyone trying to help you out. It didn't make much of a good impression, but you can see that even with that, there was a lack of direct attack back at you, and some softening good humour instead? I believe there was a lot of the same sense that Mike portrayed - that you've got your feet on the ground with your head in the clouds, right where most of us started out.Good Luck.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Ahhh Fudge. Now my last e-mail going back at you is out of sequence with your e-mail being nice with us. Bottom line: Just watching out for your biz. Rep is everything and with today's society so poised and willing to believe the worst about contractors without a shred of evidence, I figured you might be headed down that shadowy gray (grey?) path.Sounds like you're going to get your signoffs and signatures. That works wonders. Here's another tip: Keep a diary or journal of biz conversations/directives in a book that cannot have pages added to it. Those marble-covered composition books they sell at Staples or Office Max work well, and have been accepted as evidence on more than one occassion. Remember, today's notes are your best defense against tomorrow's litigation!Best of luck!
Always a good idea to CYA.Should the deal go south and accusation get tossed around having paperwork showing the limit of his involvement might be worth a lot.
Yo fish...
Pretty strong words... I went back and read my posts: 56766.14 and 56766.35
and I didn't see anything that looked much like an "arrogand dig" there - pertty neutral really except the part about "I don't think he is listening". We get a lot of people around here that ask somewhat involved Qs and then never return for so much as a "well, that's your opinion" or a "thanks for everyone's thoughts" even though people have taken the time to give some pretty complete answers/opinions.
The "changed your handle" was addressed to SHG - I was saying that he was now using a new login name...
I think your having a bit of trouble navigating your way around and picking up the mechanics of how the fourm works. I'm still learning stuff about it and I've been here for around 8 years... It's been through a few different formats though.
Anyway, do me one small favor - go back and re-read the posts that say "From: DIRISHINME" at the top left corner before responding.
I'm gonna dismiss this one as a simple miscommunication...
Have a good one, Matt
Yes, if you go back a few you'll see I made a mistake.
Sorry!
No prob... one thing about this place is a lot of the posts get a lot of quick responses so if you present something controversial ya need to be around to "discuss it" ;-) Otherwise you may feel like you are getting ganged up on...
I think your idea about getting your licensing in order sounds like the best plan yet - but the project would likely need to be permitted under your license - not as an owner/builder project. Again though, we don't know where you live...
Guys around here get touchy about folks not doing things above board because that's one of the things that makes the "legit" guys get underbid.
Anyway, you got some different perspectives on the situation.
Have a good one, Matt
This here forum is a living breathing entity unlike other building and DIY forums i have seen or visited. In most of the others, it would take a day or three to get just a couple of responces. A man could grow cobwebs sitting around waiting for an answer at them.
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
"ignore it to avoid the delays and hassles"Are the significant delays and hassles? How long to get a "typical" permit for a "uncomplicated job"?I remember a thread from a while back where someone in a Chicago subburb wanted to do a bath remodel.Turns out that a HO was not allowed to do any kind of plumbing or electrical, period.That permits where required for minor things like faucet changes (I don't remember if that was one of them, but things of that sort). The city made it so hard that none of the contractors that worked in neighboring cities and got permits and inspections would work in that city.So all of the work was done by by DIY or contractors that did not permits and inspections.Not accusing your area of being like that, just that sometimes the cities make doing it "right" way too hard so that they get the oposity of what they want.BTW, the city and HOA just sent out a new rules and information booklet.I see that the city has adopted the "latest building codes" and then list the names of them. I remember reading in the newsletter that said that that was what they where going to do. At the time I thought that was just shorthand for meaning the codes that where current at the time. Now I have to see the actual adoption ordiance, but reading the info sheet makes me thing that they have adopted the "latest codes". Which means that they are stuck with any new codes are are published without any specific review or adoption by the city.IIRC I remember reading that this is not legal. That they can't delegate their legislative powers to some non-elected group. However, for the builidng code they selected the UBC, which I believe is not being updated any more. But you still have the other codes.I think that this was just done out of ignorance. It is a city of about 1000 and the elections this month one ward did not have any candidates and the positions only 1.
you are absolutely right about localities making it too difficult or too unfair. The problem is that the people making local laws tend to try to put out one fire and end up causing another. It's the law of unintended consequences, and local legislators/mayors don't have the background necessary to think things through before acting. They mean well, but end up causing their own new problems.
And flip side is that whatever laws get passed, somebody is trying to figure out a way to beat it the next day. The days of being able to count on people doing the right thing just because it's the right thing are long gone. Personally, I really hate laws, because they never do exactly what they are supposed to do. If everybody would just figure out that it's best for all of us in the long term to do the right thing, we wouldn't need them. But, we've become a nation of people trying to screw one another, and demanding the government criminalize this and take control of that whenever we don't like something.
One day there'll be a law as to how many sheets of charmin we can use at a time. That'll make for some thread in the Tavern. I'd hate to be the guy who has to enforce that law.
That's the side we fall on, too. We want everyone to follow the rules. If the rules don't make sense, we fight them. But we support the laws, rules and permitting, especially in owner builder territory. We won't take clients who want to skirt - like for instance want to build spec, when it's illegal to build spec for an owner builder. We turn down millions in revenue, but it's just not okay and endangers the entire owner builder segment.
When people flaunt the rules it causes jurisdictions to get draconian and pass silly laws. In the end.....safe housing is the goal.
Let the beauty of what you love be what you do. ~ Rumi
wobeba --- "No, wait a minute. Go right ahead and do your little scheme. Then when you get nailed (pun intended) that'll mean more jobs and tools for sale on e-Bay for the rest of us!"
Not a chance! Besides you couldn't afford my reserve price!
schellingm --- "The real question for you is how is he going to treat you? How has he treated you in the past? This is probably much more revealing that any speculation that we might have. It is something that you should consider very carefully before you continue with a greater involvement. Possibly that is a reason that you posed the question to us."
I believe his intentions are pretty close to what you mentioned in your reply. He is a long time friend of my wifes and her family and would never do anything to hurt us. He's a good guy who's retired and bored and would like to make alittle bit of money without screwing anyone in the process least of all me. I know this for a fact.
dirishinme --- "Changed your Handle hu? :-)
I don't think he is listening to us - didn't' get the answer he wanted..."
I have read all of your responses and will probably ask him to give me enough time to get my license situation in order. A request I'm sure he will agree to because he's not a "sleeze" and is treating me like an equal partner.
I WAS OUT OF TOWN FOR THE WEEKEND WITH MY FAMILY, THAT IS THE REASON FOR MY LACK OF RESPONSE. MAYBE Y'ALL DON'T NEED ANYONE TO TELL YOU THIS BECAUSE YOU KNOW IT ALREADY BUT -------------------------------------------------
GET A LIFE!
dog... whadda ya mean , get a life. ?... this is my life
i live for the opportunity of preaching eternal verities to young dudes.. please don't deny me this small thing
hah, hah, hah... sounds like your feet are on the groundMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
You got The Masters' on the tv in the background - DONTCHA?!?!?!?Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
I'm 33, is that young?
33 is a young pup.
Tiger Woods just bogeyed on 17th hole...going into 18th 1 stroke ahead of DiMarco...will be amazing if Mike pops back in before this plays out to the final winner!
Edited to add: DOGFISH - if you knew our Mr. Smith, you'd know he's an avid golfer...and I'm just someone who JUST started the game!
Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
Edited 4/10/2005 7:04 pm ET by mizshredder2
miz.... thanks for head's up ! i forgot all about the mastors..too much going on
thanks to you i got see the 18th and the playoff.. what a great finish
and the replays of the 16th... hmmmmm
i'm pretty sure the course will be open this week....
dog... 33 huh?... what a great age.... the world is your oyster.. go get 'emMike Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
And what a great finish it was! Glad ya at least caught that.
DiMarco is surely disappointed but he certainly played terrific today! Too bad history rarely remembers who came in second.
FOUR GREEN JACKETS FOR TIGER!
wow.Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
One thing about this place.
When it comes to attitudes, ya definately gets whats ya sown.
But the entertainment is free.Remember when you were thirty three, healthy, strong, capable, and still had all your mistakes ahead of you yet?
Welcome to the Taunton University of Knowledge FHB Campus at Breaktime. where ... Excellence is its own reward!
Me remember 33?!?!?!?
ME CRS.
SamT
You guys are a hoot !
To Dog: 1st offence in Ontario is $5000. plus lawyers costs etc etc.
The Building Official reports on all suspicious activity, so don't think you are fooling anyone, but yourselves. Great of your Buddy to put his signature on the affidavit....that's just what the Judge wants to see. They collect big money every quarter and post names and locations on the internet for all to see.
"He's a good guy who's retired and bored and would like to make alittle bit of money without screwing anyone in the process "
Dogfish.
Facts are always good.
One "fact" I always pay attention to is this: Actions speak louder than words.
Your good family friend wants to make a little money and skirt the rules in the process by signing a contractual/legal document under false pretenses (i.e. the: "no it's not a spec...and yes I'll live in it..." when in fact he has NO such intention, and you both know it).
ok. got it. Of all the things that I have lost, I miss my mind the most!
Hey! You responded!You've got some mouth and an attitude to match.Bottom line: You're clearly asking how close you can hold your rep to the flame without getting burned. And everyone is picking up on it. And trying to tell you --sometimes dramatically -- that it doesn't seem to be worth it.I guess what I should have asked in my last post is "Why are you feeling compelled to share this with us?"Jeepers!