I’m remodeling my own house and have a question about clear varnish on cypress. Had three very good painters give me a bid but they all disagree on the type of varnish. One said tung oil, another said laquer, and still another said latex. I’m not a painter, but I didn’t know that cypress was that special. Each claims that their way is the only way and any thing else will ruin it. I have a lot of respect for the people in this forum (even the cranky ones), so which if any painter is right.
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What is the cypress being used for?
The cypress' purpose in life will determine how tough and durable a finish is required.
Different finish for cypress cabinets than cypress siding (etc...)
James DuHamel
He who dies with the most toys.... Still dies!
"For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul?" MARK 8:36
http://www.godsfreemusic.com
Hi James, the cypress is aprx. 2000 sq. ft of ceiling on a 15' cathedral. The boards are shiplap. I'm looking for a varnish that will yellow at a minimum over time. Guess I should have gave more info but it's been a long day.
This is to bring this to your attention...
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
tryin' to help...
Goldhiller is very knowledgeable in this area....
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming
WOW!!! What a Ride!
Thanks, just dont want to mess it up. The house isa hand me down that my father and me built years ago. I took the wood down so that I can put sheetrock behind it. The fire load was tremendous.
Need coffee! be back this afernoon
Just now realized you said this material was previously installed and you removed it.What was on it for a finish? Did you or do you intend to remove that finish? If so, how?Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Gold,
How can you tell if there is a roof leak if there isnt a big splotch on the ceiling?
Cat Laq, will it look a lot different then water poly when finished, and does laq have different sheens, or can you mix different sheens?
-zen
Detect the roof leak? I think you're jerking me here, but for the benefit of other eyes that may see the post and actually wonder about this…………..hopefully it'll come dripping out of a t&g joint to let ya know. In many instances, there's no vapor barrier place in the ceiling so it has the opportunity to do that instead of following the plastic sheeting down and dumping inside the wall. Anyway........yes there's some difference in appearance between water-borne poly and cat-lacs, but not a great deal. The untrained eye may not notice it at all. And the difference is mostly based upon which cat-lac and which WB poly you're comparing it to. .My fav cat-lac thus far is ML Campbell's MagnaMax. Their previous product, MagnaLac was good, but not as good as the Max product. One of the big differences in appearance was/is (cause you can still get them both) what happened if you rubbed out the final product. MagnaLac does not respond well to #0000 wool. Actually creates scratches that are larger than the abrasive used. And following behind with an automotive fine grit abrasive rubbing compound doesn't totally remove 'em. Think car hood in sunlight with ultra-fine scratches from the use of a buffer. Magna Max doesn't do that. Rubs out beautifully. Just like nitro.And yes, it's available in various sheen levels. I can't find it anymore in quantities less than 5ers. Shelf life is around a year. Still…that's better than the older post-cat products. Short pot-life and a hassle comparatively. With post cats, it was......get that gun cleaned up ASAP or kiss it good-bye.http://www.mlcampbell.com/Pages/starpage.asp?star=MAM
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/9/2005 10:12 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Thanks for all the info from everyone you've been very helpful. What I was looking for was a clear finish with not much gloss that would yellow too much over time.(kinda hard since cypress is already a little yellow anyway) The room was all wood walls-shiplap with nothing underneath to seal the air cracks. What I intended to do is to take it all down and install sheet rock on the walls and ceiling to seal all cracks (the shiplap had cracks between the boards), then just put it back on the ceiling only. The framing in the house was taken from an old railroad depot in Navasota Texas that was built back in the 1800's so its basicly rich lighter pine. The sheetrock will help me take some of the fire load out of that room. To answer your other question its currently down and it had no finish on it. Will probably have to sand it a little to take the the coloration out of it. If you have any ideas on how to do that better please let me know
"Will probably have to sand it a little to take the the coloration out of it. If you have any ideas on how to do that better please let me know." If facing that much sq. footage of, what I presume, is kinda dirty material, I'd be looking for someone with an abrasive planer or panel sander. Going at it with a hand-held sander will test your determination and you won't likely get as even of a result as if you send it thru a calibrated machine. You shouldn't get any objections or hesitation from the owner/operator of the sander either cause there isn't any finish on it to clog the belts.If you plane the face surface of these boards instead of sending 'em thru one of the above and want a nicely finished surface.......you're still in for a sanding. Spare yourself all that and find that abrasive planer or panel sander would be my advice.Keep track of which side is face-side on these boards or you'll make yourself a big problem. No need to sand the backsides, so just mark those with a crayon, marker or a dab of spray paint for easy recognition.Hope you know how to spray cause this is alot of material to take on with a brush in my book.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.Edited 2/9/2005 11:00 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Edited 2/9/2005 11:02 pm ET by GOLDHILLER
Good idea, dont have one but I know someone who does.
I just was passing through catching up on threads neglected .
I dont see a reason to use cat in laquer on that ceiling . Straight laquer could be recoated later.
Thanks for the cupping tip . I didnt know it . after all these years,.............
Tim Mooney
"I don't see a reason to use cat in lacquer on that ceiling . Straight lacquer could be recoated later. "And I agree. No real reason other than the faster turn-around on the horses that I mentioned.........for that exact reason. That's one big reason why cat-lacs are the preferred finish of most cab and furniture manufacturers. Faster turn-around and faster to dust-free, rub out and packaging..........if that even takes place. But the recoat problem is the big downside. Most folks don't realize when they buy manufactured cabs for the kitchen, etc. that they will likely have a big expensive problem on their hands when they start wearing thru the ultra-thin finish coats on those cabs. Strip and start over. Many/most manufacturers don't bother (go to the expense of) putting on the max mils allowable for these cat finishes, but only the least they can and still get an acceptable appearance to the uneducated eye. Consequence? Much shorter life expectancy to wear-thru. My in-laws have reached that point now with their kitchen cabs. Guess why I've put off giving them the bad news? <G> Telling your in-laws.......I told ya so.....doesn't go over real big. LOL
(doesn't with me either cause they'll naturally expect me to do all this for gratis)(But one possible reason to use cat-lac instead of nitro would be …….if there is a roof leak at some point, the cat-lac will hold up to that much water better than nitro. I'm not pushing for the cat-lac, just describing it's characteristics of faster turn-around while still having good resistance to water penetration ………..so if that's a consideration…….)Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
One said tung oil, another said laquer, and still another said latex
Thats interesting . Tung oil is normally for hand finishing and this is a spray job. Tung is a natural finish that is very nice like on old furniture. Its also very expensive. I cant imagine why he would reccomend it on a ceiling unless he wants to milk it. I dont have a clue here . Goldhiller might. There is only one thing that I can think of is that tung oil looks different as in more natural. Depends on what "you" like , it may be the best looking .
Laquer is a quick drying finish that is used in production of smooth finishing and most of the time my favorite. Its used the most by production painters , cabinet shops , furniture factories, commercial uses etc. This would be expensive enough on a whole ceiling .
Latex clear finish is actually the newest of the three by a bunch. Its realitively new by a few years. Its the cheapest finish of the three , but enough for a ceiling . This would be the economical way to go.
Bam,
All of the painters are right.
All the finishes are a good choice. The cost will vary. Time will as well.
Each finish will give a slightly different result. The Lacquer and water poly will be the closest. I dont know if lacquer has different sheens but water poly does. Water poly also can have UV blockers, some lacquers may as well, Goldhiller may know.
Tung oil will have a matte look. The best example I can think of is like teak oil as opposed to Spar varnish on a boat. Spar can come in multiple sheens, but it will never look like the oil. The thing I wonder about the oil is that it doesnt create a shell on the wood and its qualities may pick up dust and end up covering the result you are looking for over time.... which you may not even notice.
Water poly can be brushed on pretty quickly and the low resistance on the brush will keep you arm and hand from wearing out, unlike an oil based finish. I have applied water poly with a brush all day long on similar ceilings up to 30 ft inside.
To get the real effect of the finish, the lacquer and water poly should have two coats, sanded in between. A sprayer would reduce the time, but also has a lot of prep and you still have to move the staging and low ladders all around.
One of the local paint shops may have an example of each, Ben Moore no longer carries lacquer, I believe SW has it.
Its not the cypress that needs a special finish, you just have to decide which one you would like. All will be a beautiful result.
-zen
Thanks, I didnt think cypress was all that special, but I've never dealt with it on an interior before.
These folks have pretty much covered it already.
If you want something non-yellowing (or the least yellowing over time) then the water-borne poly will likely serve you best. Brush application should work fine too. Oil-poly would also be a durable finish for here, but will mostly definitely yellow over time.
Another consideration is the possibility of overcoating with more clear finish in the future. There may or may not be a need of this since its on a ceiling. And wash-ability should be considered also. Wash-ability of tung oil type finish = low. You'd end up rubbing a certain amount of the dirt into the wood surface.
Nitro-brushing lacquers would allow you to apply lacquer with a brush, but nitro will yellow/amber some over time. Cat-lacquers can't be applied by brush. Spray only. And there's no overcoating after about ten days. One advantage to cat-lacs for this application is the relatively short set time. If spraying prior to mounting, dust in the spray area becomes less of a concern and the rotation of material batches is quicker. If you don't have a spray application area large enough to allow you to lay it all out at once, the short set time becomes advantageous. This doesn't mean you can take the stuff and stack the pieces one on top of another after 20 minutes, but you can stand them on end somewhere and bring new material to the horses. I prefer applying finishes in the horizontal position if applicable. Lessen the chances of getting a sag or run in the heat of battle with a big stack of boards when your attention is apt to wander after a while.
There are also water-borne lacquers available, but they're a bit high priced for a job of this nature.
You haven't said whether this material is already mounted. Its gonna be a lot easier to finish this stuff on the ground and if it's a cathedral ceiling, then the odds that this material could become wetted from the backside at some point in the future just increased. We all know that roof leaks happen. When using wood for cathedral ceilings, I always coat both sides of the lumber for this reason and others. It can easily make the difference between a ceiling that survives unscathed and one that doesn't. And it helps buffer the potential for cupping boards from varying humidity levels on the face and backsides. Time and money well spent in book. And if this ceiling isn't a cathedral, there still could be a laundry above it or a bathroom. I'd be doing the backsides as well. One coat at a minimum. Putting up a wood ceiling is a big investment in time and materials so I'd do everything I could to protect it.
If you're worried about scuffing up the wood during install, then I'd suggest getting the finish on the backside just prior to mounting and then get the finish on the face side ASAP. If you do the backsides and then leave the faces unfinished for a week, the boards will start cupping. Not good.
The waterbornes will cause the grain to raise some unless you've popped it first with a damp sponge and then sanded that down after it's dried again. Another way to deal with this is to lay a coat of Zinnser's SealCoat (dewaxed shellac) instead of the pop & sand.
Record what you've used for finish where it can be easily found in the future. Somebody may benefit from that info.
Knowledge is power, but only if applied in a timely fashion.
Edited 2/9/2005 10:15 am ET by GOLDHILLER
amber shallac....
The secret of Zen in two words is, "Not always so"!
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