how typical is this ?
man… i was taught to cut-in sash with a sash brush…. and to get a 1/16 to 1/8 lap onto the glass
now, i’m seeing “pros” painting sash and lapping a 1/2 ” onto the glass and then going back and cleaning up with razor blades and patented “window scrapers”
i go to pro-painting forums and look for techniques… and they’re all over the map too… some use my method… some do the “lap & scrape” some are even masking with blue tape
am i losing my mind .. or am i just using outmoded methods ?
another thing i found in visiting some of those forums….. they don’t use the correct terminology in describing window parts… eg: calling the wood dividers between lights “mullions” instead of “muntins”
am i just visiting the wrong forums ?
Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Replies
You may have heard of my Azek glass stop instead of putty technique. One thing I found out was , using thick paint like SW Duration or Porter Permanizer ( I consider ea. of these on par with liquid caulk) by lapping on the glass and then using a thick heavy scraper( or 3" drywall type knife) I can use it as a guide along the stop, for a razorblade..that gives me a nice lap to seal that interface, and those paints peel so easy,it is faster than cutting in.
I also switched to round brushes, instead of angled sash brushes, MUCH better.
For razor blade holders, I like those little plastic ones, that are a buck , usually in a bucket at the counter of my paint store. They also have a small shoulder, that keeeps that seal of the azek/glass . My lines are laser straight, no taping, and no coffee shakes from cutting in.
Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
duane... i switched to round sash tools instead of the angled ones also...
but for the most part, i don't paint anymore .. sometimes we paint... but most of the time we hire painters.......it's hard to find good ones..... i mean .. there are good ones... but they are usually one-man shows
it's hard to find good painters that hire good painters , know how to price and schedule, know how to supervise and maintain quality ......man, that sounds like whining , doesn't it ?Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
"it's hard to find good painters that hire good painters , know how to price and schedule, know how to supervise and maintain quality ......man, that sounds like whining , doesn't it?"Having current comp is a big hurdle for us.
Jon Blakemore RappahannockINC.com Fredericksburg, VA
Oh I agree, I do little painting in the shop, for the new sash I build. On the job, we've gone thru at lest 5 different outfits, in a yr. and a half. The guys we have now, are top notch, but we had to weed out a lot of others that were all talk , no action.
I mean, can YOU strip a cornice with just a 5-in-1 tool? Crown Moulding? I have an ammo box full of shave hooks, scrapers, home made crevice cleaners...and that bozo sends out two guys with two tools.
I could have taken over the application parts too, but I HATE painting, and esp. had a hard time with the SW Duration, I wasn't sure if I could Flotrol it or what, and it kept balling up on me, in the heat. It's a trade I don't need to get proficient at..LOLSpheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
But it is a trade those of us whom are picky need to learn well.
Because no one else will do it to our satisfaction.
That is the truth, but even I am not meeting my expectations.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
I hate redoing my work something fierce. But painting keeps me humble. I really hate non-clad wood windows.
The destructions that come with the doors and windows that I've had installed specifically mention the finished must overlap on the window by 1/8".
Now, whether these "pros" have privilege to similar installation instructions may be where the difference of opinion lies. You, as a builder, see these instructions. The painters never get to, or don't work with other builders that are willing to share it.
Or maybe they can't read...
There are about a thousand details in a house that have been subjected to decorators and designers, and their opinions on how stuff should be done. In most cases, they are wrong.
And paint on windows is one of the aspects that decorators have influenced over the years. They want clean straight lines "in the corner" -- not that ugly overlap.
And they are wrong.
Our guys--good, reliable, insured--use the new spray-on masking. Spray the whole window and scrape/peel off the glass, razor blade into the corners.
If they don't spray, they do the 1/2" onto the glass and scrape it off.
I was taught to lap onto the glass too, and I can see where it makes sense with single-glazed sash and putty, but we mostly use similated divided light (Marvin Ultimate etc.)--don't you think the glass is sealed in well enough without 1/128" of paint?
sure.... but lately we've caught a run of 1984 wood windows..... and 1904 wood windowsi tell all my customers...." CLAD windows... you do not want to deal with painters any more than you have to....especially with window sash"Mike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Clad, clad, clad... it's the only way to go, unless it needs to REALLY be historically accurate.
We like to use thick historic sills on most of our jobs, which we can't get in some clad brands, but we almost always go with clad sash even if the trim is wood or pvc.
My house has 1977 Andersen Narrolines with that lovely brown stain everybody slopped on everything back then. I painted them a couple years ago, lapping onto the glass. Too bad I'm not a very good painter.
1904? Sure it isn't time to upgrade those babies?
So what's the best type of cladding?
Vinyl?
Al?
Cu?
Galvanized?
Stainless Steel?
We usually use AL but I've seen some copper clad that looked pretty spiffy. I suppose SS would be even better. Galvanized would look pretty cool but would eventually rust, at least around here.
Not a big fan of vinyl but it's what I've got on my house, and we did just do over most of a house with Andersen Woodwrights, which are vinyl on the outside and looked pretty darn good.
If it wasn't for razor blades I would never paint a window. Been tryin for 20 years to get the perfect line and resolved to the fact... it ain't gonna happen.
Slop it on and shave off the excess.
One New England regional window rep recently spelled it out for us--"M-U-T-T-I-N". Now you know the RIGHT way to say it ;-)
boy... this is their bread and butter and they still don't have a clueMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
I was taught at Col. Williamsburg, that the Muntin are Muntin Bars, and they are like Rails. And Mullions are the verts like stiles, and when you side by side two window frames, they are then called Mulled. Or mulled together.
If you ever coped a M&M joint by hand with a gouge, you'd really be glad they make router bits now that cope and stick.Spheramid Enterprises Architectural Woodworks
Repairs, Remodeling, Restorations
They kill Prophets, for Profits.
Mike, Some of these glass scraping tools really do a nice job. I have some ( don't see a name on it ) that automatically leave about 1/8" of paint on the glass.
It's light years faster (and actually neater in most cases) than being fussy with a brush and it accomplishes the same thing.
I agree that you must leave a little border of paint lapping on to the glass to seal the edge.
Latex paint peels off in one clean strip very easily.
P.S. I saw your picture at Ft. Sill. You were there the same time as Tommy Franks.
If you had followed in his tracks, you would have been a 4-star now!
Edited 11/21/2008 5:56 pm ET by BoJangles
When you apply masking tape the window, guess at the length and then tear your piece of tape and inch or so too long.
Press it into place with the extra length extending past the edge of the glass..
Quickly cut the tape to length by placing the blade of putty knife in the corner and use the blade as a guide and pull the tape against the blade to cut it to exact length
Using this method you can quickly tape the window.
.
"My wife ran away with my best friend and I miss him"
I've had a painter working with me for the past year or so & he showed me a time saving tip. It will only help if you are not too concerned with the lapping of paint.
Prior to priming or painting the sash he takes a scraper blade and makes sure the edges of glass & sash are very clean. After each coat of paint, he cleans the glass with the scraper while the paint is WET. This save so much time compared to waiting for it to dry & scraping dried paint.
No one had mentioned scraping wet paint yet so I figured I'd mention it.
George.
hmmmmm...
i can't believe that anything can be faster than cutting in with a round sash tool.....
it's one step
taping is 4 steps
paint / scrape is two stepsMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
Mike ,
I worked on a job awile back where the painter was painting a couple of 15 lite true divided lite doors. He was using a HVLP pressure pot setup.
He would just shoot the whole door, glass and all from top to bottom. After about 15 minutes he would walk a razor knife around each piece fo glass and peel the whole piece of glass in one piece. Nice and neat and maybe 10 or 15 minutes per side.
Only guy I've ever seen do this. He shot the rest of the house with an airless sprayer but would use the HVLP for sashes that had alot of cutting.
After seeing this I actually bought a HVLP gun with a latex conversion kit but have'nt used it enough to form an opinion yet.
Like you , I don't paint any more than I have to.
dug
the whole time you guys were talkin muntins, mutton & mullions there was a turkey being tortured in the background
the likes of Marvin, Kolbe & Kolbe will say right on them ifin they are simulated do not paint the glass & keep the metal blades behind that mirror in your bathroom
my lumberyard has had some miniature plastic blades featured / anyone try one yet?
how'd that turkey make out ? get out of gitmo yet?we ain't talkin "simulated " here.... we's talkin PAIN as in .... putty...muntins....broken and chipped muntins... glass that cracks when you look at it....broken sash cords...missing weights... ...none of this "simulated" stuffthis ain't for the faint of heart, johnMike Hussein Smith Rhode Island : Design / Build / Repair / Restore
One of the bigger reasons I've bought into the "no razor blade on the glass" theory is that many of these windows we're discussing are made of tempered glass. The ones in doors and sidelights, especially.
Tempered glass is real sensitive to scratching and thus inducing a weakened spot to allow easier breaking (or so I'm told). The times I've done so, actually really do cut long scratch lines along the visible edge of glass.
Those of you that doubt this and have painted your own windows, get a magnifying glass and see for yourself.
A real problem when stripping and refinishing windows.
Now, I guess if one is so talented that he can use a sash brush without any blades or tape, whadz he asking us for? He's already the guru.
Razor blades and glass do not always mix well.
It is very possible to leave a significant score line at the intersection of the glazing stop and the glass when a razor blade is used to trim the excess paint from the glass.
Combine this score line with enough pressure on the glass face (wind, thermal, tight glazing bead, etc) and you have an increaded likelihood of "unexplained" glass breakage in the window.
Again, this is using the edge of the razor blade to cut a tight line in the paint along the edge of the stop. Scraping glass with a razor blade is another issue entirely.
So how you YOU paint sashes?
Not being smartazzed, but you are the guru's guru when discussing windows.
Actually, the last time I painted a sash (which is strictly as a DIY'er), I used a razor blade to trim the excess paint off the glass face.
Nice clean line, it is fast, it works...
But, there is still the possibility of damaging the glass if there is excessive pressure on the blade; so using just enough force to cut thru the paint line without cutting into the glass is probably a good idea when using a blade for trimming.
Edited 11/24/2008 7:31 am ET by Oberon
I'm with you Mike! If you paint the muntins and then scrape, you lose the effective seal that the lapped paint offers. In cold climates, condensation on the window glass is a sure problem for wood muntins.
There are several types of scrapers (edgers) on the market that have a bumper on the side so you can't cut the paint all the way back to the muntin.
I use them all the time and they work great. They leave about 1/8" of paint on the glass and they are adjustable.
When you are done cutting the paint off the glass, it looks better than most any painter could do with a brush.