Panned studs for cold air return
I’m confused, and I thought you all might weigh in on the subject of panned returns.
I’m remodeling, and I’ve been looking for an HVAC contractor to replace some cold air returns that are going away when I remove a wall. I’ve read a few things, including an article in FHB, that say that panned studs and joists are a bad idea – that they pull in dust and contaminants, and that they pull moisture into the wall cavity and can rot the framing.
But I’ve talked to three HVAC guys now, and they all laughed and told me whoever wrote that article didn’t know what he was talking about. They said that panned returns are a lot less expensive, and that they move a lot more air than a duct.
Any opinions on this? Is there any good compromise that would give me enough air without having the problems that I’ve read about? We’re having a hard time finding places to put enough ducts in my house to provide adequate returns.
Replies
I do remodeling and have never seen rot in a cold air return and I think the dust would be the same no matter how it is done. It's open space with air movement.
I am certainly no expert but I can't see a problem.
The problem doesn't necessarily show up in the panned joist. The problem is that this method causes interstitial air movement that is unpredictable and has caused many problems in the past that were very hard to trace to this as the root source.
It is a bad practice and you would do well to not follow the advice of an HVAC contractor when it comes to issues of building science, which is what this is. They are trained to do cheap installations and get enough heat and AC to provide comfort to the occupants. They often create problems by the things that they don't understand.
Ray,Do you also suggest that all ductwork seams be sealed?Most ductwork seems to be prone to some leakage, not as bad as panned studs or joists, but still less than air tight.
<Do you also suggest that all ductwork seams be sealed?>I saw an article in JLC where they pressure tested theH.V.A.C. lines after installation. I'm no expert but it sure seems like a good idea to me. Keeping the conditioned air where it's supposedto be.
Around here some of the local building departments require ducted cold air returns. In homes that do not I have seen areas of the carpet,walls and base that collect dirt over time.
I have not seen any issues with moisture, but if they are located in an exterior wall or near a bathroom/ kitchen I assume that could happen.
Wood is Good
Adam Greisz
Edited 8/13/2005 6:53 pm ET by AdamGreisz
I will add to RayMoore2G.
Cold air returns should be sized just like the supply side of the system. How are they going to size a stud cavity or joist space to an individual rooms requirement? Can any of them tell you how many cfm can be pulled through a 3 1/2" x 14" hole in the plate, and on down 9 1/4" x 14" x 10,15, or 20'of joist bay? Not to mention that that stud cavity they stuck the return grill in goes to the top of the wall. How much air are you willing to suck out of your attic space because they say panning is cheaper?
A contractor that will run a full set of load calculations for you will tell you what you need in the way of supply side Cfm and return air for each room in your home. When you find that contractor, the cost will higher than the guys you talked to so far, and the results of using him will be just as noticeable.
Dave
I don't mind paying more to have the job done right. I'm just having a tough time finding someone who I can convince myself is doing this by more than the seat of their pants. And it doesn't seem to help to ask for references, because most people (myself included) don't know all that much about HVAC, and don't know how to judge the quality of what we're getting.
Any thoughts on how to find a good HVAC person and what to ask them to help judge the job they want to do?
Your thinking is absolutely correct. The trouble with panned returns, or unsealed return ducts, is that their negative pressure will pull in air from anywhere a crack leads - Outside, your attic, the crawlspace. Do you want to pull in air from these places? I don't. It's expensive enough to condition the air in my house without adding an unplanned load. Just because it's easier to build it that way doesn't mean it works better. In fact, the opposite is often the case.
AndyAndy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
I would agree with you to a certain extent. Quite a few HVAC techs are looking for the fastest, least invasive, and the way steel is currently priced, certainly the cheapest option for installation. I am a framer of custom homes, and I have had the opportunity to work with a few different HVAC techs. I really cannot say that I am an expert concerning air flow, but I have seen a few techniques used when "panning" that looked promising.
1). guys that appy caulking to edges of studs and top plates before applying the panning.
2). saw a guy using TJI joists for panning cap the end of the joist cavity about 2 feet from the rim board with panning, caulk sides, and fill 2' area in with insulation.
3). most guys avoid the kitchen area like the plauge, also put returns in bathrooms low to the ground and as far away from showers as possible.
Reminds me of a funny tale a hv guy told me once. I guess he had a service call to an upscale home. home owner was concerned about contaminations in the duct line. I guess the filter was filthy after only a few days. Changed dozens of them out over a couple of month period. Turns out that someone cut a supply register in the kitchen floor into the return plenum by mistake. I guess the Home owners family was using the floor grill as a central vac system. kids, lol.
just my ill informed 2 cents.
".. also put returns in bathrooms low to the ground and as far away from showers as possible."
If you see a return in a bathroom in one of your custom homes, no matter how promising it appears, be far away when they light the furnace. The HVAC sub is a hack and your safety is at stake.
"If you see a return in a bathroom in one of your custom homes, no matter how promising it appears, be far away when they light the furnace. The HVAC sub is a hack and your safety is at stake."
Just curious how a "non-hack" would deal with huge bathrooms and no return air?
I'm guessing the answer is "same as with small bathrooms."Do you really want to pull air from the bathroom to distribute through the house?Stay away from the chile!
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
I can understand the potential consequences at just the right moment, but if the bathroom is large enough to warrant a supply or two, then what good is accomplished without a return?
Obviously, it would be prudent to locate the return as far away as possible from the throne....
I know a couple of builders that do this, and I have not heard anything bad about it yet.
It ain't the smell, it's the humidity.
i.e., wet farts?
LOL.
I understand humidity. However, realistically speaking, a bathroom is normally humid only for a short time during the course of a day. The exhaust fan(s) will remove a good part of that at the source.
If a room was humid all of the time, then there would be other issues.
So, what is a solution to air circulation in a larger than average bathroom if a return vent is a no-no? If there are supply vents, and no returns, there will not be any air movement if the door is closed.
A transfer grille to an adjacent room simply moves the air to one location instead of diluting it with air from the entire home with a return vent.
Any excess air from the supplies that does not return to the rest of the house will go out the exhaust vent. If the room is that big, leave the door open slightly.
A "non-hack", i.e. an HVAC contractor who owns a copy of the IMC (or whichever code applies) and has read it, would know that a return a bathroom in most types of buildings, is simply illegal, and in residences is a practice to be avoided. Since by code, exhaust is required, the "non-hack" will select an exhaust fan to closely matches the supply air or the required exhaust rate, whichever is greater. If the installer is better than average or even good, they will have the bathroom slightly negative with more exhaust than supply and the shortage is madeup with transfer air.
i'm with you all the way here, on the bathroom return issue.But i don't think they are 'illegal,' it's really a case of common sense. The same applies to a kitchen (cooking) area.
Exhaust fans in these areas will suffice.
Question from a homeowner RE: returns in the bathroom (Just out of curiosity - I am a DIY'er, but do not plan to attempt to design my own HVAC system):
I assume the concern w/ bathroom (and kitchen) returns is humidity, but don't forced hot air & cooling systems remove moisture from the air? As was stated before, moisture in kitchens & baths is not a constant all day thing, & it seems to me that if you want airflow in those rooms, you'd need a return. If you are using the exhaust fan to create airflow in those rooms, you'd have to keep them running all the time & you'd be sending conditioned air outside - how is that better?
Again, I don't claim to be an HVAC expert, this question is simply for my own curiosity.
The main reason for not having RAir in bath or kitchen is ODORS, especially bathrooms. Even tho most homes now have exhaust fans in these area it's surprising how many times they are not put into operation. Thus any ODORS from within these areas if there was returns, would subject the entire home with these sometimes foul odors.
Keep Ra out of these two areas when there is a forced air ducted system.
And exhaust fans with 'timers' are quite beneficial.
Edited 8/18/2005 1:43 pm ET by Hubedube
"But i don't think they are 'illegal,' it's ...."
Illegal may not be the most appropriate way to express "forbidden by the code". With the sole exception of a private dwelling, a certain amount of ventilation is required per toilet fixture and recirculation is not permitted. What that means in English is: supply and exhaust only, no return. Returns in residential bathrooms are not illegal, just illadvised. A return in any toilet, not in a private dwelling, is, in most jurisdictions, a code violation, and therfore illegal.
"If you see a return in a bathroom in one of your custom homes, no matter how promising it appears, be far away when they light the furnace. The HVAC sub is a hack and your safety is at stake"
Hunh????
Hunh???? or Duhhhh???
as in Hunnhhh....what's he saying, that when they light the furnace the gas from the big dump I just took is gonna blow the house sky high?
>>Any thoughts on how to find a good HVAC person and what to ask them to help judge the job they want to do?Ask if they have attended any of the National Comfort Institute courses on HVAC duct desiggn, or call the NCI (800 # at their website) and they can probably give you names in your area.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Thanks for that suggestion. I was able to get a few names from NCI and have calls in.
About 4 months ago we finished a whole-house remodel that was a perfect example of what you don't want.
As Andy said in his post, you don't want air drawn in from unwanted areas. For our viewing pleasure this house had a clear moisture barrier under the sheetrock and we could easily track many of the various unplanned air "channels" through the building envelope by the long black trails of mold in the fiberglass. The returns were litterally connected to almost all floor joist cavities separating the first and second floor and a few dozen stud cavities to boot.
We cut access strips throughout the floor for new electrical and plumbing runs. The main air paths were easy to see because of the layer of "dust" that lined the channel (sometimes 1/4" deep). The secondary air paths were around joists that didn't quite reach the rim, through plumbing and electrical holes, and any other small opening.
Horizontal return runs that have large cross sections are much harder, if not impossible, to clean with one of the typical high output vacuum services. Personally, I wouldn't want a duct that can't be cleaned, or one that can't be well sealed.
Best of luck, Don
Hey Don. You're cool. Welcome to the forum.
Ray, Thanks--I'm glad to finially be here. :)
Those hVAC guys are CORRECT. Anytime you can use a joist space or stud space without going all out with a 4 sided 'all metal' return air duct is great. Drywall on each side of studs make a very good and proper return duct. Metal "joist lining" applied on the undersides of floor joists also makes for a proper ,uncostly return air carrier.
>> they move a lot more air than a duct.
Seems to me that will depend on the cross sectional size of each.
If they were identical in cross-section, I would guess the full sheet metal version would allow more air to be moved because of reduced turbulence along the walls, but that is just a guess.
There are many folks in the trades (as in other lines of work) who learn the cheap/inexpensive way, not the best way, but assume they know it all.
Here is some things to think about... several years ago I built a neighborhood of 15 Energy Star certified homes. Before doing so I went to a few classes. They told us that the average HVAC company install duct systems with between 10 and 20% leakage. On site duct pressure tests confirmed this. The energy Star Guys were looking for leakage more in the 2-3% range if I remember correctly. Panned joist/stud bays were strictly forbidden. These nearly air tight duct systems were accomplished through the liberal use of duct mastic.
These duct systems were different than some being discussed in previous posts as we use flex duct here for new construction. Some people may have some bad things to say about flex ducts but it sure is a good way to get a duct system with less leaks.
In qualifying a HVAC company you wight want to ask how they feel about using duct mastic while assembling their duct runs. You may also want to ask if they have ever done any Energy Star Certified homes. You also may want to ask if they can do a "manual J" calculation on your home. Manual J is a somewhat complicated process but there are software programs out there that simplify the task greatly and are moderately priced. Granted, manual J is most effective on new construction where there are fewer unknowns but if they at least have the capability, at least you know they are not a 100% seat of the pants outfit.
One final thought - if panned joists/stud bays are a good thing why is it that they are so infrequent if not rare?
Thanks for the suggestions.
Your last comment surprised me. Given the discussions I've had with people in my area (Chicago suburbs) I have the impression that nobody installs actual ducts, at least for cold air returns.
A forced air duct system normally uses all metal type duct for all SUPPLY mains and take-off runs.
For the RETURN, main ducts that are not running parallel with the joists, etc, are ducted the same as the supply runs.
Joist lining(panning?) is used on situations where there already is a 3 sided duct (the floor and the 2 joists). In the case of any return that is required from a studded wall, why not use the drywall and 2 studs, its the same as using metal ductwork but more economical, quieter, and has the same, if not a larger dimension. In most cases, in calculating return air, it is alway best to have more rather than less.
In most cases, in calculating return air, it is alway best to have more rather than less.
actually ... it's best to have the whole system sized correctly and have as few leaks as possible.
aside from that .. I have nothing to go on but the advice of my HVAC guy ... who I consider to be one of the best around. And aside from never using joist bays as ducting ... he also tosses most prebent stuff and bends his own in his metal shop.
something about him not liking leaks?
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
You may have the ONLY residential furnace and ductwork installer that never uses "joist-lining (or sometimes referred to as panning) in all of N. America. lol.
he is "different", that one ...
Jeff Buck Construction
Artistry In Carpentry
Pittsburgh Pa
We haven't done this in austin tx since the 80s.
Some places around Chicago require soild metal returns.
If you check out some hack work at a cookie cutter subdivision, you will find metal duct installed that is just as or more leaky than panned return duct.
Some towns require taped duct seams, but because tract builders don't want to pay, HVAC shops use duct tape, which is worthless. "It only has to last a year" is the motto.
In some homes with open floor plans, a panned bay in the basement may be the only way to get at 3 returns in the only available wall... you know, the wall that is already filled with plumbing and electric. Of course, the builder is too cheap to make it a 2 x 6 mechanical wall. Panning in the basement helps to avoid the other horror, ductwork jumping bays in the basement.
Panning can save the day when the jerkoff plumber or electrician runs their stuff down the middle of the bay instead of to one side so metal ductwork can be used.
If care is taken during installation, there is nothing wrong with panning or using wall cavities. Unfortunately, that is a big if.
If a company installs ductwork for the return system, do the installers orient the crimp on the pipe correctly? Which will leak more: panning or pipe installed with the crimp against airflow? Which causes more turbulence?
More metal costs more money. Sealing ducts also costs more money. OK by me if the customer pays for it :)
"Panning can save the day when the jerkoff plumber or electrician runs their stuff down the middle of the bay instead of to one side so metal ductwork can be used."NNNTTTTTT...no, no never, please...strictly against code, & if the same hack plumber or electricians' work needs to be redone, you have to undo all the panning....
"Against code" or not, I couldn't tell you how many houses have plumbing, electrical or both buried in panning. I would like to know the code that forbids it. I have never seen a house fail inspection with anything but gas piping in a panned return,
The only thing absolutely forbidden is gas piping in panning, that is understandable.
In an ideal world, I can understand why it is not good to have panning, much less something else in there.
Contractors do it because it is cheaper than pipe or ductwork, no getting around that. Sometimes it is the only way to get a return to a narrow bay- a bay that pipe will not fit into (but the area is still equivalent to a properly sized duct). Other times, it is because there are multiple returns in the same bay, and the homeowner/builder does not want ductwork below the joists in that particular area.
I see panning as a (sometimes) necessary evil.
People can cry all they want about panning not being "correct", but until the other trades, the builder and the architect actually allow and plan for the HVAC systems to be properly installed, sacrifices from "perfection" will be made in the real world.
I want to see the HVAC ductwork, drawn in a double line format, fit on a blueprint. If it fits there, it will fit in the building. No more of this single line crap. Section and elevation views, too.
Let's not forget that this "perfection" must be paid for. I know contractors that have lost bids on subdivisions on $10 a house.
The money end of it is the real problem. Contractors and their employees have a dollar figure to work with. If the typical resi tract home only has so many hours allowed, you will see some real hack work, because that is what the builder is paying for. That is much worse than a panned return.
Many "custom" builders aren't much better, because they see money spent on invisible mechanicals as money out of their pocket.
All very true... judging from the many "hack"-tirades one sees on the net, someone, somewhere eventually fingers a hack job for what it is. In the meantime, most homeowners live in ignorance other than that they're not quite as comfortable as they could be, the energy bills are high, etc.It's also a philosophy question. Apparently, homeowners aren't attracted to non-bling items because they usually do nothing for the resale of a home and because Americans move every 7 years on average. When the market starts to value a well-installed infrastructure, perhaps then more builders, homeowners, etc. will be willing to go out of their way to find good (and perhaps pricey) installers to do the job right.To give you an example, our architect intended on giving the mechanical trades 1/2 the room they needed to get all the infrastructure installed. I vetoed that... but as long as architects are not required to suffer the consequences of their design-work (i.e. and be required to install all the mechanical infrastrucuture the HO wants in the space the architect has provided for), we won't see any change.
As far as NEC, my understanding is that through runs are verboten, cross run OK.....plumbing, IHNI......
You raise good points. But one of the things that differentiates fine homebuilding from hack homebuilding is detailing the hvac correctly. I've been a builder, and a subcontractor, and know exactly what you're talking about. However, "Because the competition does it that way," is no moral justification for doing work we know to be shoddy. And having worked for those tract builders that will sell you down the street for $10 on a $4K job, I can tell you that there are other ways to make a living.Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
"One final thought - if panned joists/stud bays are a good thing why is it that they are so infrequent if not rare?"
I don't know if your unfamiliarity of a common practice neither confirms nor denies the benefit of such, but I can assure you that panning of joists and/or studs is neither infrequent or rare.
The use of flex duct is similar in many aspects to the use of panned spaces for returns: both can be effective cost saving installation methods and both can be misapplied and the cause of many unintended poor results
That may be true where you live but the only place I see them here in NC is in older homes (20 + years). So let it suffice to say that is not a common practice in all parts of the country.
Edited 8/17/2005 7:40 pm ET by Matt
"But I've talked to three HVAC guys now, and they all laughed and told me whoever wrote that article didn't know what he was talking about. They said that panned returns are a lot less expensive, and that they move a lot more air than a duct."
They get a failing grade, because only one out three of their statements was correct. You have successfully screened out three HVAC contractors that you should not consider doing work on your home.
Panned joists and stud cavities are commonly used, and with the right techniques can be effective and not cuase more harm than good. Inside stud cavities that include a boundry with an unconditioned space, wall stacks are prefered over panning. A 3-1/4 x14 wall stack will easily pass 100 to 120 cfm. Panned floor joists not near a rim joist also cause no harm and provide the only practical way to "duct" some returns. The key point is that the panning is stopped and sealed such that no outside air leakage path is created. The difference in capacity between a smooth galvanized steel 12x8 duct and the space between 2x12's - 16" oc., with panning is about 100 cfm, give or take.
>>Inside stud cavities that include a boundry with an unconditioned space, wall stacks are prefered over panning.Ummmm. "Inside" as "an inside/interior wall of the house....." or "the inside of a stud cavity, one side of which is an unconditioned space...."Curious minds want to know <G>
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Bob,
I was refering to the latter, "the inside of a stud cavity, one side of which is an unconditioned space....", but then you knew that didn't you? I.e. partion walls above which is an unconditioned attic.
Noboby mentioned using an exterior wall stud cavity as a panned return, I think (hope) that is universally accepted as a bad idea.
Tim
I really wasn't sure what you were referring to; in fact, I wouldn't have guessed the i.e., example you gave, but just because I'd have called that an "end" as opposed to a "side."The main thing is I want to learn.
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
Here is a site, similar to this one, that is dedicated to HVAC:
http://www.hvac-talk.com/
Rebuilding my home in Cypress, CA
Also a CRX fanatic!
Here's another thought. I don't believe that panned returns meet ASHRAE standards, although that's from memory and not the book. If it doesn't meet ASHRAE standards, it fails the IRC. And yes, return ducts need to be sealed, too.
I spent most of my building career in NJ, and panned ducts went out there in the 80s.
Andy Engel
Senior editor, Fine Woodworking magazine
An updated profile is a happy profile.
Other people can talk about how to expand the destiny of mankind. I just want to talk about how to fix a motorcycle. I think that what I have to say has more lasting value. --Robert M. Pirsig
None of this matters in geological time.
I'm glad to see this discussion turn towards quality methods. It is frightful to see how many people want to justify the use of panned returns in joists and walls and returns in bathrooms. Both of those practices are simply horrible and unjustifiable. Just my not so humble opinion and shared by purveyors of quality construction nationwide.
I'm right with everybody on the pitfalls of panned returns, but no returns in bathrooms is a new idea to me & not one I'm sure I buy in....is it really addressed in the Code....I have a timed exhaust fan (yeah, a humidistat would be nice...) and always use it, so I really don't see either a moisture or smell reason strong enough to make me worry that my bath with a return in it is a hack job.....tell me why I'm wromg...
"I'm right with everybody on the pitfalls of panned returns, but no returns in bathrooms is a new idea to me & not one I'm sure I buy in....is it really addressed in the Code..."In the 2000 IRC, M1602.3 -4 Returns prohibited in "a closet, bathroom, toilet room, kitchen, garage, mechancial room, furance room, or other dewelling unit."
>>"or other dewelling unit."Typo?FWIW, no returns near a combustion appliince because it can cause backdrafting and CO problems
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Sojourners: Christians for Justice and Peace
"FWIW, no returns near a combustion appliince because it can cause backdrafting and CO problems"Since I can copy and paste it I had to retype. So only the one section.Combustion appliacnes where a different paragrpah, but the most common ones where also included in this one (mechancial, furances, and kitches)." >>"or other dewelling unit."Typo?"Nope. I assume (note this is the IRC - 1&2 family units) that you can't have a common return between 2 units in a duplex.
In the 2000 IRC, M1602.3 -4 Returns prohibited in "a closet, bathroom, toilet room, kitchen, garage, mechancial room, furance room, or other dewelling unit."
Why no returns in closets, especially walk-ins?
I didn't write the code <G>.My guess is because of the relatively limited size.
Hi PM,
I ain't no Norman Eienstien, so I hate to wiegh in when there are so many guys smarter than me but heres my 2 cents.
I did have a guy calculate my HVAC. (It was not all that pricey really) And I specifically told him I was using Stud bays for cold air return to my crawlspace. (I am going to use my sealed crawlspace as a giant plenum.) He said it was okay. (He is an energy consultant/Architect) The runs will be very short and they must be placed in interior walls. They gotta be sealed tight though! All those comments about dust collections, carpet stains and dirt streaks are all true. A tight house is a happy house.
KD
Using your "sealed" crawlspace as a plenum is fine except for one potential problem. It is unlikely that your crawlspace is truly sealed and the negative pressure in your crawlspace/return plenum will create interstitial air flow through pathways that it is almost impossible to predict. In some instances you will create unintended air flows from places that cause unforeseen problems. This is a very complex issue. You may be just fine but Lstiburek and others have shown that these unintended air flows often create problems that are hard to explain. In motels rooms with drop ceiling plenums, air was being drawn through torturous pathways through walls and ceilings that drew in humid outside air and caused mold to show up in areas that were impossible to explain until these air flows were considered. I'm not trying to throw up a big red flag. I only want others to consider the possible consequences of using free return plenums and panned return ducts in their buildings.
If I were you, I would buy a smoke pencil and crawl around down there with the equipment running and check all around for unintended air currents. I wouldn't do it because I was worried, just because I'm curious and I do that kind of thing for fun. Who knows, you might find some places to squirt a little foam sealant.
Of course the other consequence of using the crawl as a plenum is that when a fire happens, the AC will come on and the returns will pull the fire into the crawlspace until the power to the unit is cut. I have seen some interesting phenomena related to AC units and central vac units in fire events.
Ray!
Excellent comments! Thank you. I have spoken with quite a few people about this and I am always up for some new input. I think I am the first here in my area to do this. So I am "The first mouse". (As in, its the second mouse that gets the cheese"!)
Since the house is not built yet I am going to be excruciatingly attentive to ensuring the "envelope" stays closed. This is the most important aspect of the idea because all you said is true.
Also, (And I hate to use this forum to motormouth) Your fire comments hit real close as I had a neighbor whose house burned down just down the street. Consequently, I am installing an automatic sprinkler system. (We have a volunteer Fire Dept so you can see the response times could be variable) However, no one else had your insight on pulling fire into the crawlspace. Excellent. Thank you.
As for sealing the crawlspace. I am caulking the bays in the rim joist and then blowing in cellulose. I think I am on the right track but I sure do appreciate comments like yours! It makes quality building easier.
KD
Have you reviewed the detailing for insulating a sealed and conditioned crawlspace at http://www.buildingscience.com? What climate are you located in? I think it is really hard to discuss these issues without that info.
Edited 8/23/2005 12:33 pm ET by RayMoore2G
Hi Ray,
No I have not read that but I will. I have many references to include Tauntons Insulate and Weatherize like a pro and mulitlpe JLC and FineHombuildiing articles. (And I have a coupla Engineer/Architects that I consult) So I feel fairly confident of what I am doing. But your comments indicate I am not getting all the info I need!
My climate is Northern Middle TN. Just South of the Kentucky state line.
I sure appreciate your input. It is making me think harder. (Which is wearin me out!)
Thanks.
KD
I shy away from architects and engineers as being up to the task of advising on these issues unless they have recent training and an interest in building science. The universities are a little behind the curve on these issues and are still teaching vented crawlspaces, etc. Keep learning and asking questions. I'll try to help as time allows.